Wisconsin Illinois Dual

[npope]

It's not just an Amos problem.

Bottom line is that without Gomez certain wrestlers needed to step up to win their 50-50 matches or get bonus points to compensate for the loss of Gomez in the line-up. Some did, most didn't.

You know, if I asked a rival Big Ten coach what assessment they would make of Wisconsin's program as whole I think it would be this: "They're able to find talent and those wrestlers can win or be very, very good on the national level and within the league but it just doesn't translate to the entire program. For whatever reason they've never had the depth to be good from top to bottom so if something happens like an injury or an upset it affects the whole team. And when you've never won anything there's no history or culture or attitude or style you can lean on to carry you when you need it or establish yourselves in comparison to other programs. They just sort of sink or swim based on what and who is available and what's happening at the moment."   

Yes, if Gomez wrestles and he's healthy UW beats Illinois. And they probably win Midlands too. But they didn't. And even without their best wrestler they still had opportunities to win at Illinois and at Midlands and they didn't. So what can you say? That it really doesn't matter who the coach is or who they bring in or who wrestles or what, until that breakthrough is finally made where the Badgers can win WITHOUT their best wrestler or wrestlers or IN SPITE OF adversity, they will never win big. And yes, I write this pretty much at my wits end because this program keeps hitting the same brick wall again and again as I've followed it for many, many years and studied its history, I just don't know what to say anymore, because I would be just repeating myself.

I think you've just described every single program in the US except for Penn State and Iowa. So, the Badgers are in good company - there's the BIG TWO and then everybody else. So personally, I don't lament the lack of depth you accurately describe - it is simply the way of the beast. Asking/expecting the Badgers to somehow bridge into that world of ridiculous talent and depth is a BIG ask, but the road map to do so is fairly obvious...big NIL money and a legal system to get that money into the hands of a plethora of talented guys in the room.

Interesting how the times change. Years ago when I was in the Badger room (1974) there were about 40-50 guys in the room (six deep at 118 pounds, if you can believe that!) with only something like 9.9 scholarships and no NIL money. But some guys got summer jobs through their team connections - Reinwand comes to mind - I believe he got a summer job at a local meat packing plant - it was real work - not very glamorous, but it was the way that business was handled at the time. And too, that was a time when the Badgers were only on the edge of stepping on to the big stage as a national challenger - they weren't quite there yet. JRob up at Minnesota was an innovator that figured out that if he hosted enough summer camps he could employ a number of his wrestlers in lieu of scholarship money. That system laid the foundation for Minnesota's emergence onto the big stage as a challenger for about a decade. I think the only way the Badgers become a challenger is to has a big infusion of NIL money to get and keep talent in the program. And to the extent coaches can impact that is the extent to which Bono (or anyone else) can lift their program into the Big Two club.

[vsmf2010]

It's not just an Amos problem.

Bottom line is that without Gomez certain wrestlers needed to step up to win their 50-50 matches or get bonus points to compensate for the loss of Gomez in the line-up. Some did, most didn't.

You know, if I asked a rival Big Ten coach what assessment they would make of Wisconsin's program as whole I think it would be this: "They're able to find talent and those wrestlers can win or be very, very good on the national level and within the league but it just doesn't translate to the entire program. For whatever reason they've never had the depth to be good from top to bottom so if something happens like an injury or an upset it affects the whole team. And when you've never won anything there's no history or culture or attitude or style you can lean on to carry you when you need it or establish yourselves in comparison to other programs. They just sort of sink or swim based on what and who is available and what's happening at the moment."   

Yes, if Gomez wrestles and he's healthy UW beats Illinois. And they probably win Midlands too. But they didn't. And even without their best wrestler they still had opportunities to win at Illinois and at Midlands and they didn't. So what can you say? That it really doesn't matter who the coach is or who they bring in or who wrestles or what, until that breakthrough is finally made where the Badgers can win WITHOUT their best wrestler or wrestlers or IN SPITE OF adversity, they will never win big. And yes, I write this pretty much at my wits end because this program keeps hitting the same brick wall again and again as I've followed it for many, many years and studied its history, I just don't know what to say anymore, because I would be just repeating myself.

I think you've just described every single program in the US except for Penn State and Iowa. So, the Badgers are in good company - there's the BIG TWO and then everybody else. So personally, I don't lament the lack of depth you accurately describe - it is simply the way of the beast. Asking/expecting the Badgers to somehow bridge into that world of ridiculous talent and depth is a BIG ask, but the road map to do so is fairly obvious...big NIL money and a legal system to get that money into the hands of a plethora of talented guys in the room.

Interesting how the times change. Years ago when I was in the Badger room (1974) there were about 40-50 guys in the room (six deep at 118 pounds, if you can believe that!) with only something like 9.9 scholarships and no NIL money. But some guys got summer jobs through their team connections - Reinwand comes to mind - I believe he got a summer job at a local meat packing plant - it was real work - not very glamorous, but it was the way that business was handled at the time. And too, that was a time when the Badgers were only on the edge of stepping on to the big stage as a national challenger - they weren't quite there yet. JRob up at Minnesota was an innovator that figured out that if he hosted enough summer camps he could employ a number of his wrestlers in lieu of scholarship money. That system laid the foundation for Minnesota's emergence onto the big stage as a challenger for about a decade. I think the only way the Badgers become a challenger is to has a big infusion of NIL money to get and keep talent in the program. And to the extent coaches can impact that is the extent to which Bono (or anyone else) can lift their program into the Big Two club.

Nat,

Lots of good stuff here and depth is a really tough thing and become even more difficult with the portal. If you are good enough to win Big 10 matches there is a spot for you in a lineup on someone in the top 30. Even being part of the top 2 and having better depth than the rest Iowa's dual against Illinois came down to the final match when they could not put their best lineup out.

Your story about the summer jobs reminded me of how business was handled a few decades ago. Back in the late 80's I worked for a company that was a big supporter of Badger sports. One day in May or June the first year I worked there I walked into the warehouse and there about a half a dozen new guys in the warehouse. I ask the warehouse manager who the new guys were and he smiled and said it was "summer help" and they were Badger football players. They showed up for a hour or so had some coffee and got paid for an 8 hour day. Seems like a long time ago now....

[DocWrestling]

Taylor Lamont has not been mentioned but he is certainly wrestling below expectations

[wrestlemania]

Taylor Lamont has not been mentioned but he is certainly wrestling below expectations

Lamont didn't win yesterday but at least he didn't give up bonus points to ranked wrestler like Byrd. He did his job at least.

[bigoil]

As for depth, MN vs NW double FF at 125 when you have two top ranked wrestlers. I haven't heard of any injury, seed protecting backfiring?

[vsmf2010]

As for depth, MN vs NW double FF at 125 when you have two top ranked wrestlers. I haven't heard of any injury, seed protecting backfiring?

DeAugustino was hurt in his first match at Cliff Keens and had to injury default. Has not wrestled since and is 1-1 on the year. Mckee has not wrestled since 12/11 and did not go to the Scuffle but Minnesota did not send many starters to the Scuffle so I do not know if that means anything. If he was healthy, eligible and could make weight I am sure he would have weighed in to take the easy 6 for the team in a very tight dual. Maybe MNBadger knows something he could add about McKee.

[bigoil]

As for depth, MN vs NW double FF at 125 when you have two top ranked wrestlers. I haven't heard of any injury, seed protecting backfiring?

DeAugustino was hurt in his first match at Cliff Keens and had to injury default. Has not wrestled since and is 1-1 on the year. Mckee has not wrestled since 12/11 and did not go to the Scuffle but Minnesota did not send many starters to the Scuffle so I do not know if that means anything. If he was healthy, eligible and could make weight I am sure he would have weighed in to take the easy 6 for the team in a very tight dual. Maybe MNBadger knows something he could add about McKee.

Thanks for the context.

[TomM]

Iowa Struggles and Wisconsin Falls to Illinois, Wrestling Recap - Off Tackle Empire

https://www.offtackleempire.com/2023/1/10/23546407/iowa-struggles-wisconsin-falls-to-illinois-wrestling-recap-january-2023-spencer-lee-maryland