Was expecting a good match. Lot of stalling by Dake. Sucks for wrtestling.
That's how Dake wrestles. Taylor wasn't able to create enough movement to get Dake out of his positions.
1st stall should've come about 20sec. earlier. But like the saying goes defense wins championships and Dake had it.
Totally disagree anoka. great match. great individual accomplishment. Sucks for wrtestling (sp.) I don't think so. Exactly what our sport needs.
13 seconds of mat wrestling won, imagine that. He dominated, not by stalling and I have Taylor in the pool I'm in.
Quote from: howavi on March 23, 2013, 10:17:11 PM
13 seconds of mat wrestling won, imagine that. He dominated, not by stalling and I have Taylor in the pool I'm in.
No stalling. Great wrestling. I love the coverage and interview with Dake on ESPN a few mins after. What great exposure for the sport. Such a great match and great finals. I have to think a lot of fans were on their feet just like I was during that match, whether in attendance or not. Man I love this tournament and this sport!
Quote from: hammen on March 23, 2013, 10:22:48 PM
Quote from: howavi on March 23, 2013, 10:17:11 PM
13 seconds of mat wrestling won, imagine that. He dominated, not by stalling and I have Taylor in the pool I'm in.
No stalling. Great wrestling. I love the coverage and interview with Dake on ESPN a few mins after. What great exposure for the sport. Such a great match and great finals. I have to think a lot of fans were on their feet just like I was during that match, whether in attendance or not. Man I love this tournament and this sport!
I agree, espn gave him the spotlight on sportscenter.
Leave it to NCAA wrestling though to not get the entire match in by the allotted time for the broadcast. Anyone taping it, only got to see 1 1/2 periods of wrestling. We wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics. We can't even find a way to get the best match in over a dozen years in during the allotted time of the broadcast. Nice job NCAA wrestling!
Because can't imagine anyone would be taping the broadcast given we are dumb enough to schedule the NCAA championships during the first week of March Madness. And we wonder why our sport is in trouble....
Quote from: uwgrappler on March 23, 2013, 10:48:55 PM
Because can't imagine anyone would be taping the broadcast given we are dumb enough to schedule the NCAA championships during the first week of March Madness. And we wonder why our sport is in trouble....
I agree with that statement 100%. A casual fan is going to turn on the basketball tournament way before trying to watch wrestling for the first time.
Quote from: uwgrappler on March 23, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
Leave it to NCAA wrestling though to not get the entire match in by the allotted time for the broadcast. Anyone taping it, only got to see 1 1/2 periods of wrestling. We wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics. We can't even find a way to get the best match in over a dozen years in during the allotted time of the broadcast. Nice job NCAA wrestling!
Go watch it on YouTube then! And to say we wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics because of that is funny!
I thought it was a great match. Dake rode tough and attempted to turn Taylor. Taylor is very explosive and has great agility, but Dake is seldom out of position. I really didn't agree with the stalling calls, but you have to hand it to the champ for riding a phenomenal wrestler like Taylor.
Woody you guys can keep believing this style of wrestling is good for the sport. I've noticed less people at matches and less kids wrestling. But I'm not in the circle here so my opinion probably doesn't matter. But thats okay I'll keep watching until it doesn't exist anymore. I'll also drop off the forum because it's not an open forum for open opinions. There's a saying that goes something like "If you always do what you always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten". Wrestling is at that crossroads.
The NCAA moved the finals schedule to spotlight this match... they turned out the lights for the intro... Dake got a feature spot on ESPN during March madness... how is that doing whats always been done OR getting what you've always gotten?
As to the match itself, there was as much scoring in the first period of this one as there was in the last whole match! This was Ali Frazer and you are hatin' :o
Quote from: imnofish on March 23, 2013, 11:18:59 PM
I thought it was a great match. Dake rode tough and attempted to turn Taylor. Taylor is very explosive and has great agility, but Dake is seldom out of position. I really didn't agree with the stalling calls, but you have to hand it to the champ for riding a phenomenal wrestler like Taylor.
Agreed, Dake makes you wrestle "his" match. Even for someone as great as Taylor, Dake controls tempo and he defends everything so well. Eventually he just wears you down. Taylor's worst enemey may be himself, he rarely goes the distance, he techs or pins everyone so fast...
Quote from: anoka114 on March 24, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
Woody you guys can keep believing this style of wrestling is good for the sport. I've noticed less people at matches and less kids wrestling. But I'm not in the circle here so my opinion probably doesn't matter. But thats okay I'll keep watching until it doesn't exist anymore. I'll also drop off the forum because it's not an open forum for open opinions. There's a saying that goes something like "If you always do what you always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten". Wrestling is at that crossroads.
Your right this is a public forum, but you obviously do not understand wrestling. That was a great match by both wrestlers. As good as those two are what else could you ask for. They are so close I was impressed to see what I saw tonight. For anyone that says that was not an exciting match you do not truley understand wrestling. For those that know the sport or understand college wrestling know that it does not get any better than that. Your way off haha sorry to single you out, but that's just silly and way off.
Glad to see it was on ESPN and not a side channel of ESPN. And if anyone ever records an athletic event, you always allow for more time. On TW you have recording options on their DVR.
If the NCAA wrestling tourney is not this weekend it is not going to be on ESPN for the finals and not going to be on the overflow channels for earlier rounds. ESPN knows everyone is watching basketball so they find programming for people less interested in basketball.
Wrestling is simply lucky that over the years it has proven to get more viewers than women's basketball because that is whay wrestling bumped out.
A far as the time issue three things,
1) I agree with the DVR being able to record longer so most did that
2) The NCAA was likley not expecting so many coaches challenges which delayed the time
3) It was probably a good thing for wrestling to have it run over into sportscenter as a lot of fans turned it to sportscenter at 10pm to see basketball highlights and they got the end of a great wrestling match and a great interview. More viewers likely actually saw the match because it went over.
I did think that it was amzing to see Tom Ryan and Tom Brands sitting next to each other in the stands while there two wrestlers went at it
Taylor didn't look very sharp in the 3rd, he didn't seem gassed but he didn't seem to have anything left.... he didn't seem to be wrestling like a guy 2 points down in the 3rd in the biggest match of his life. They did let Dake get away with the same boring ride for a long time but I believe Taylor failed to make a better effort to get out. I wanted Taylor to win, he wrestled great in the 1st and by the middle of the second he seemed to fade away.
Very exciting match,great finals throughout,JMO,Dake isnt a 4timer if Howe wasnt hurt.
I can't believe how most people are missing the amazing part of this. Dake has 3 national titles in 3 years, going for number 4! Now here is what wrestling should be (but usually isn't) This kid says if I'm doing this I'm doing it right. Not only am I going for number 4 but I am going to move up another weight class to wrestle the defending national champion at that weight and quiet possibly the "second" best wrestler in the country. Now that my Friends is what wrestling is about!!!!! Hats off to Drake that kid has got B----lls!
Man....it is amazing how some peoples opinions are so far off from mine sometimes. Not that I am right, just can't believe how people can watch the same thing and have drastically different perspectives and opinions about how it all happened. Dake was amazing and is an amazing wrestler. Was he stalling in the 3rd....you are d@#@ right he was. Who wouldn't be? Some of you guys must not have watched high level wrestling enough to not think that the Dake/Taylor match was a great match for the sport and for the fans. Dake is a 4 time NCAA champion in 4 different weights and he is going to get criticized for how he did it.....and how he did it against one of the most dominating wrestlers the last 3 years?? WOW! I would like to live in some of your guys life's for a day to see what it is like.....then again maybe I don't. Ha!
And for those that do not know how to record a live sporting event and you miss the ending and blame the network cause you are not a smart person.....amazing?!! ::)
And I agree with hammen.....great event last night and what a great sport!!
Was he in the realm of stalling? I think he was, but I don't think it was that bad. A lot of people still are missing the big picture here. 1. If you are going say dake was stalling, then so was Taylor. 2. These guys are so good I cannot even comprehend it, so why anyone is crying stalling on dakes 3rd period ride is wrong. They are so evenly matched that a good solid ride and a few takedowns are going to win a match. It is all strategy, and dake knows all he has too do is ride and look busy. If Taylor would of made a legitimate effort to get out then I could see where the stalling could come into play. 3. Does anyone realize how much skill it takes to ride a guy like Taylor for that long. Dake mentally beat Taylor with that ride, and he broke his will. It is funny to see the difference in opinions, but I sat with three guys that know wrestling, and they all thought that was a great match for two guys of that caliber. For those of you that expected this to be a 15-14 match and our disappointed in the performance and stalling etc. do not understand the sport. Too many people judge the match on the final score. That is everyone's determining factor in how good or bad it was. When I watch any type of wrestling whether HS or college I focus on the body of work. Hand fighting, head position, setups, defense, re-shots, funk, momentum shifts, and I am just naming a few. Watch that match again and look at these different criteria, and then maybe you will understand where I am coming from. If you still can't appreciate then maybe I should move to Iowa haha. Because there fans understand it. They cheer not only when points are scored, but also when a guys scores respect by gutting out other positions that help you win matches and not necessarily score points.
Overall, I thought the entire finals was one of the most entertaining I've seen in years!To me, the most exciting match was Welch & St. John, Steiber & Ramos was next. Wright was very, very, explosive! I didn't expect that coming from the opponent he had. Dake & Taylor, the first period was awsome and then Dake took over and simply controlled Taylor. Remember when he rode Molinero for eternity! The heavys were better than I anticipated. Overall a very good finals!
Quote from: boowrestle on March 24, 2013, 09:52:17 AM
Very exciting match,great finals throughout,JMO,Dake isnt a 4timer if Howe wasnt hurt.
JMO, who cares about Andrew Who
Quote from: JapanMan on March 24, 2013, 11:38:31 AM
Was he in the realm of stalling? I think he was, but I don't think it was that bad. A lot of people still are missing the big picture here. 1. If you are going say dake was stalling, then so was Taylor. 2. These guys are so good I cannot even comprehend it, so why anyone is crying stalling on dakes 3rd period ride is wrong. They are so evenly matched that a good solid ride and a few takedowns are going to win a match. It is all strategy, and dake knows all he has too do is ride and look busy. If Taylor would of made a legitimate effort to get out then I could see where the stalling could come into play. 3. Does anyone realize how much skill it takes to ride a guy like Taylor for that long. Dake mentally beat Taylor with that ride, and he broke his will. It is funny to see the difference in opinions, but I sat with three guys that know wrestling, and they all thought that was a great match for two guys of that caliber. For those of you that expected this to be a 15-14 match and our disappointed in the performance and stalling etc. do not understand the sport. Too many people judge the match on the final score. That is everyone's determining factor in how good or bad it was. When I watch any type of wrestling whether HS or college I focus on the body of work. Hand fighting, head position, setups, defense, re-shots, funk, momentum shifts, and I am just naming a few. Watch that match again and look at these different criteria, and then maybe you will understand where I am coming from. If you still can't appreciate then maybe I should move to Iowa haha. Because there fans understand it. They cheer not only when points are scored, but also when a guys scores respect by gutting out other positions that help you win matches and not necessarily score points.
Well put sir! Taylor's speed and range got the first TD and then Dake shut him down. That first escape(which I thought was a reversal) was awsome. Dake picked him up and manhandled him like a rag doll. On the mat, Taylor couldn't ride him and nothing worked from the bottom. I did not think that Dake was stalling, he was as he said: 'riding him like a dog'! As to Howe....wherever he wrestles next year, I hope Taylor schools him.
Quote from: boowrestle on March 24, 2013, 09:52:17 AM
Very exciting match,great finals throughout,JMO,Dake isnt a 4timer if Howe wasnt hurt.
By all accounts of what others are saying Howe would of been at #174 this year and is projecting to be there next year.
Quote from: uwgrappler on March 23, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
Leave it to NCAA wrestling though to not get the entire match in by the allotted time for the broadcast. Anyone taping it, only got to see 1 1/2 periods of wrestling. We wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics. We can't even find a way to get the best match in over a dozen years in during the allotted time of the broadcast. Nice job NCAA wrestling!
I recorded it and got the whole match. What service do you have. I use direct tv.
That is not stalling. That is control. Watch the top seeded heavyweight wrestler if you want to see stalling. After he gets an escape he does not move and stays right next to the edge of the circle with his back to it. He does not even move forward to the center of the mat. He just stands there waiting for the guy to come to the edge of the mat where is standing there. I would like to see more stalling called, but I do not think it is stalling when you have the half nelson in.
boowrestle, Howe=NO chance to beat Dake
Quote from: Rush66 on March 24, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: uwgrappler on March 23, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
Leave it to NCAA wrestling though to not get the entire match in by the allotted time for the broadcast. Anyone taping it, only got to see 1 1/2 periods of wrestling. We wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics. We can't even find a way to get the best match in over a dozen years in during the allotted time of the broadcast. Nice job NCAA wrestling!
I recorded it and got the whole match. What service do you have. I use direct tv.
I hate and have Direct; but I did notice the nice feature that you can go 30 minutes beyond the recoding time. Used it for the first time yesterday.
I thought it was an excellent match. The whole 5th through finals I felt were just great. I'm EZ to PLEEZ, doh.
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
boowrestle, Howe=NO chance to beat Dake
However beat him pretty handily at the U.S Olympic trials last year. But, maybe it would be different in folk style.
Quote from: leg turk on March 24, 2013, 06:50:24 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
boowrestle, Howe=NO chance to beat Dake
However beat him pretty handily at the U.S Olympic trials last year. But, maybe it would be different in folk style.
I dont remember Howe wrestling Dake at the trials.. I saw him beat David Taylor and Tyler Caldwell at the trials.
well, maybe I am wrong then, but i swore he beat dake and taylor.
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
boowrestle, Howe=NO chance to beat Dake
Must agree, and I could not find any Howe vs Dake in the 2012 trials.
Howe wrestled Taylor in the 2012 trials. Howe also wrestled Dake in a previous freestyle matchup and beat him. I do not recall the venue or year though?
Quote from: FinalWord on March 24, 2013, 07:49:30 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
boowrestle, Howe=NO chance to beat Dake
Must agree, and I could not find any Howe vs Dake in the 2012 trials.
ya, sorry about that.....it was the 2008 trials. look on youtube howe vs dake. it might be a different result today, but howe beat him back then.
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
I think Howe beat Dake in the FILA University Freestyle in 2011
No fan of Howe leaving but I absolutely don't understand the comments about how he can't compete with Dake. The guy hasn't lost a match he was healthy in except to Burroughs who he has pushed to the brink.
Quote from: howavi on March 24, 2013, 09:00:45 PM
No fan of Howe leaving but I absolutely don't understand the comments about how he can't compete with Dake. The guy hasn't lost a match he was healthy in except to Burroughs who he has pushed to the brink.
Maybe Taylor will move up to 174 next year and we can have another marquee matchup.
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
It's a rough one, but I think Howe is more physical than Dake if that's even possible to say lol. Many people don't realize that Howe can go toe to toe with Burroughs. He very well could of been the gold medalist last summer.
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
You're right, Kyle Dake is no Andrew Howe. Dake has more than 1 NCAA title (not a knock on Andrew, just a fact). Any style they wrestle (Free or Collegiate) would be a great match. I don't really know who would be the favorite to win at this point. I guess we will see in the future if both can remain healthy. I imagine Dake will have an upper hand as his only focus is Freestyle now. I'm sure training with Burroughs during the Olympics was great experience for him, and I can't imagine his gains from training 100% freestyle.
I think we all know that Howe and Jordan B go toe to toe on the mat. I have seen it a couple of times in both styles.
I also though that Dake trained with Jordan B this past summer for the Olympics and Jordan B just gushed about how good Dake was and how he pushed him in every phase of wrestling.
While I dont know who would be the favorite between Dake or Howe but I do know it would/will be fun if it happens ;D
The only thing I can say for certain is what has happened.
Dake is a 4 time national champ at 4 different weights.
Howe is a 1 time champ thats career in college has taken many, many different twists. I hope he can figure out what he is going to do next year and gets back on the stand.
I will be surprised if Howe ever wrestles in a college singlet again. With those injuries and the 2020 olympic situation I just can't see him taking part in a college season.
I think Dake and Burrows have kept improving during Howe's layoff.....not so sure he would ever beat either one of those guys again.
I am not a Howe hater, I enjoyed having him in Madison.
Quote from: bigG on March 24, 2013, 06:49:33 PM
Quote from: Rush66 on March 24, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: uwgrappler on March 23, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
Leave it to NCAA wrestling though to not get the entire match in by the allotted time for the broadcast. Anyone taping it, only got to see 1 1/2 periods of wrestling. We wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics. We can't even find a way to get the best match in over a dozen years in during the allotted time of the broadcast. Nice job NCAA wrestling!
I recorded it and got the whole match. What service do you have. I use direct tv.
I hate and have Direct; but I did notice the nice feature that you can go 30 minutes beyond the recoding time. Used it for the first time yesterday.
I thought it was an excellent match. The whole 5th through finals I felt were just great. I'm EZ to PLEEZ, doh.
Go to ESPN3, they have the replay there.
Quote from: howavi on March 23, 2013, 10:17:11 PM
13 seconds of mat wrestling won, imagine that. He dominated, not by stalling and I have Taylor in the pool I'm in.
I think the stalling calls he got were appropriate and he did what he needed to do to win. I also think that Dake should have gotten that reversal and that may have changed the match because at that point it would just have been 2 R instead of 1 then 2td. Even if Taylor doesn't get out there was the riding point awarded. If everything goes the same then the stalling call would have knotted up the match even with the riding time. I know they're all hypotheticals but imagine if the challenge would have went the other way (That Cornell was trying to get) it would have been ironic that that changed call could have COST Dake the match.
I thought it was a great match. Not as good as the 2nd meeting this year but great anyway.
Quote from: anoka114 on March 24, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
Woody you guys can keep believing this style of wrestling is good for the sport. I've noticed less people at matches and less kids wrestling. But I'm not in the circle here so my opinion probably doesn't matter. But thats okay I'll keep watching until it doesn't exist anymore. I'll also drop off the forum because it's not an open forum for open opinions. There's a saying that goes something like "If you always do what you always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten". Wrestling is at that crossroads.
Really, because you got to voice your opinion, Woody and others voiced theirs. I would call that a forum for open opinions. Just because someone challenged your opinion or you may be outnumbered doesn't mean you didn't get to express it.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 24, 2013, 07:49:26 AM
If the NCAA wrestling tourney is not this weekend it is not going to be on ESPN for the finals and not going to be on the overflow channels for earlier rounds. ESPN knows everyone is watching basketball so they find programming for people less interested in basketball.
Wrestling is simply lucky that over the years it has proven to get more viewers than women's basketball because that is whay wrestling bumped out.
A far as the time issue three things,
1) I agree with the DVR being able to record longer so most did that
2) The NCAA was likley not expecting so many coaches challenges which delayed the time
3) It was probably a good thing for wrestling to have it run over into sportscenter as a lot of fans turned it to sportscenter at 10pm to see basketball highlights and they got the end of a great wrestling match and a great interview. More viewers likely actually saw the match because it went over.
I did think that it was amzing to see Tom Ryan and Tom Brands sitting next to each other in the stands while there two wrestlers went at it
All great points. I'd add that for sporting events or events that have the potential to go over Directv is defaulted to go over 30min and you can change it. When programming online or smart phone this was not the case but this past year they made that feature available as if you're setting up your receiver at home. Love technology.
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on March 24, 2013, 09:11:39 AM
Taylor didn't look very sharp in the 3rd, he didn't seem gassed but he didn't seem to have anything left.... he didn't seem to be wrestling like a guy 2 points down in the 3rd in the biggest match of his life. They did let Dake get away with the same boring ride for a long time but I believe Taylor failed to make a better effort to get out. I wanted Taylor to win, he wrestled great in the 1st and by the middle of the second he seemed to fade away.
After that first takedown, I thought Taylor was going to stop Dake from getting his fourth. He looked so confident and pumped but Dake didn't get rattled. I was rooting for Taylor too just because I like his style better but in know way do I think Dake is boring or didn't deserve to win with the way he wrestled.
Great match.
Quote from: bigG on March 24, 2013, 06:49:33 PM
Quote from: Rush66 on March 24, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: uwgrappler on March 23, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
Leave it to NCAA wrestling though to not get the entire match in by the allotted time for the broadcast. Anyone taping it, only got to see 1 1/2 periods of wrestling. We wonder why they eliminate wrestling from the Olympics. We can't even find a way to get the best match in over a dozen years in during the allotted time of the broadcast. Nice job NCAA wrestling!
I recorded it and got the whole match. What service do you have. I use direct tv.
I hate and have Direct; but I did notice the nice feature that you can go 30 minutes beyond the recoding time. Used it for the first time yesterday.
I thought it was an excellent match. The whole 5th through finals I felt were just great. I'm EZ to PLEEZ, doh.
I love Directv (not the price) and my HD DVR receiver automatically asks on sporting events if you want to exted it to the 30 min or more. Not sure what receiver you have.
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
I must be the only fool on here, who is completely lost nowdays, when it comes to riding time. It is so important, that we actually award points over riding time. We say that if you can control your opponent for more than a minute we will award you an additional point at the end of the match. Every good wrestler now includes the importance of riding time in his strategy for a big match. So then we ask our officials to promote action by making good riders come out of position to promote the pin. I wish one of you could tell me where one rule leaves off, and the other rule begins. It's time for riding time to go, because RT and stalling have become so judgemental that many officials share my mindset on these two rule applications, they don't know where beautiful riding technique stops and stalling begins. Our discussion of this great match really points out this problem.
Quote from: the mayor on March 25, 2013, 11:11:17 AM
I must be the only fool on here, who is completely lost nowdays, when it comes to riding time. It is so important, that we actually award points over riding time. We say that if you can control your opponent for more than a minute we will award you an additional point at the end of the match. Every good wrestler now includes the importance of riding time in his strategy for a big match. So then we ask our officials to promote action by making good riders come out of position to promote the pin. I wish one of you could tell me where one rule leaves off, and the other rule begins. It's time for riding time to go, because RT and stalling have become so judgemental that many officials share my mindset on these two rule applications, they don't know where beautiful riding technique stops and stalling begins. Our discussion of this great match really points out this problem.
I think RT should be enforced in high school. Honestly, how is RT judgmental? Literally you have one person press a button when Wrestler A is wrestling and press the other button when Wrestler B is riding, if Wrestler A has more than 1:00 minute of riding time.. it's 1 point.
If anything I think we should get rid of stalling. Somebody has you in a hold that you can't get out of...? Sounds like a pin...
I'm not saying that dropping down to an ankle and holding a guy is the same as having somebody flat on their back for 2 seconds, but what I am saying is that a person who is getting NF but is not going for the pin isn't much different than a guy dropping to a leg stacking up riding time. It just comes down to 'can you get out?' and doing what it takes to get out. I think wrestlers would have to be more creative on moving from bottom if this was factored into their match.
Quote from: zugzoo on March 25, 2013, 12:55:34 PM
I'm not saying that dropping down to an ankle and holding a guy is the same as having somebody flat on their back for 2 seconds,
Maybe you did not mean that, but that is what you said and that is what you would get if you got rid of stalling.
Kyle
Quote from: zugzoo on March 25, 2013, 12:53:04 PM
Quote from: the mayor on March 25, 2013, 11:11:17 AM
I must be the only fool on here, who is completely lost nowdays, when it comes to riding time. It is so important, that we actually award points over riding time. We say that if you can control your opponent for more than a minute we will award you an additional point at the end of the match. Every good wrestler now includes the importance of riding time in his strategy for a big match. So then we ask our officials to promote action by making good riders come out of position to promote the pin. I wish one of you could tell me where one rule leaves off, and the other rule begins. It's time for riding time to go, because RT and stalling have become so judgemental that many officials share my mindset on these two rule applications, they don't know where beautiful riding technique stops and stalling begins. Our discussion of this great match really points out this problem.
I think RT should be enforced in high school. Honestly, how is RT judgmental? Literally you have one person press a button when Wrestler A is wrestling and press the other button when Wrestler B is riding, if Wrestler A has more than 1:00 minute of riding time.. it's 1 point.
If anything I think we should get rid of stalling. Somebody has you in a hold that you can't get out of...? Sounds like a pin...
Agree 100%!
This really should be a completely different post, but the best way to get rid of the issue of riding time vs. stalling is to get rid of folkstyle and let them wrestle freestyle in college (high school too for that matter), but I digress ;D I thought Dake should have got hit for stalling earlier and more often. The drama of what could be achieved by either wrestle with a win was compelling, the match itself was not a great match :(. Now let us hear some commentary about how I must not know anything about wrestling.
I can't see how some people think freestyle is so much more exciting than folkstyle. Have you watched the Olympics lately? If freestyle was so exciting, it wouldn't be in the predicament it currently is in.... If you want to compare, you need to compare the same levels. Compare the WI WIAA state tournament to the WWF freestyle state and tell me that folkstyle is lacking excitement. Then compare the US national team trials with the NCAA championships. While I would agree that there are some boring NCAA finals (Perry v. Brown but this year's finals were pretty exciting overall) I would also argue that there are just as many ho-hum matches in freestyle where no one scores and they go to that stupid ball grab to finally decide a winner.......
Please explain to me how that made any improvements to freestyle wrestling or made wrestling any more exciting
As for Dake vs. Taylor, it seems to me that many people's definition of stalling is probably influenced by who they wanted to win that match. If you were rooting for Taylor, then you probably thought Dake was stalling. If you were rooting for Dake, you would probably that was good solid wrestling on Dake's part.
Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with how Dake controlled Taylor from the top position. First of all, it's not like Dake was droppping down to a leg everytime Taylor stood up. I see that happen WAY too often for my taste but Dake did no such thing. In fact, with Dake riding that half nelson and picking Taylor up and slamming him to the mat, it seems the real blame ought to be laid on David Taylor for not being a better wrestler from the bottom position.
Conversely, for all of Taylor's prowess from the top position, it seems Dake never considered Taylor a threat on top and had absolutely no problem escaping from Taylor.
Plus 1 on that whatever and I was rooting for Taylor.
At the Southern Scuffle, I wasn't sure the best wrestler won the Dake - Taylor match (and I'm a huge David Taylor fan so my judgement might be clouded). Saturday night when Taylor took Dake down early in the first period I jumped off my couch (knowing these wrestlers defensive and scrambling abilities thought this was the deciding take down). And then it happened, Dake man-handled Taylor. There was no doubt in my mind the best wrestler won the 165 lb NCAA Championship. Having not seen Kyle Dake that often, I was shocked at how much more physical he was than Taylor.
As far as the shot at Tony Nelson, I totally disagree. He's as offensive as 90% of all HEAVYWEIGHTS. Gelogaev takes him down twice in the first period and goes out to a 4-1 lead and yet Nelson gets a takedown in the third and rides him out the last 46seconds for the win in their semi-finals match. Nelson's advantage over most heavyweights is knowing he'll escape in about 8 seconds from the bottom. Also he knows if the opponent chooses down he'll likely get a riding point. Does this make him less likely to take a hurried or untimely shot..absolutely. Does this force his opponents into being more aggressive on their feet than they normally would be...absolutely. Not sure any of the Minnesota coaches ever expect a major decision or pin out of him in a dual, but bet they are happy they can book a "W" for three every time.
Although I watched the NCAA's live, I also DVR'd them for later enjoyment. All the credit goes to my son for setting it to a later time! YEAH KID!
Quote from: whatever on March 25, 2013, 05:23:04 PM
As for Dake vs. Taylor, it seems to me that many people's definition of stalling is probably influenced by who they wanted to win that match. If you were rooting for Taylor, then you probably thought Dake was stalling. If you were rooting for Dake, you would probably that was good solid wrestling on Dake's part.
Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with how Dake controlled Taylor from the top position. First of all, it's not like Dake was droppping down to a leg everytime Taylor stood up. I see that happen WAY too often for my taste but Dake did no such thing. In fact, with Dake riding that half nelson and picking Taylor up and slamming him to the mat, it seems the real blame ought to be laid on David Taylor for not being a better wrestler from the bottom position.
Conversely, for all of Taylor's prowess from the top position, it seems Dake never considered Taylor a threat on top and had absolutely no problem escaping from Taylor.
Personally, I did not have a favorite going into this match, but I saw it the same way you did. When you see two guys this good go head-to-head, it's almost a shame that someone has to lose.
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
I think it would be based on opinion. Fact is settled on the mat.
Quote from: My2sense on March 26, 2013, 08:51:12 AM
I think it would be based on opinion. Fact is settled on the mat.
Ain't that the truth! 8)
Already has been settled on the mat.....Howe has beat Dake twice now, and has never lost.
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 09:30:54 AM
Already has been settled on the mat.....Howe has beat Dake twice now, and has never lost.
Lots of progress. I'm a fan of both. Andrew is still battling injuries. I was told during Big Tens from a friend of his that he is still banged up, which is limiting his mat time. That has to be difficult for him to maintain the progress he had going into the Trials last year. I don't think the margin of victories was big, and I would expect a similar bout if Andrew can wrestle come the US Open. Really hope these two go at it. It would be great for wrestling, and I'm sure a lot of people will be rooting for Dake to see a Burroughs/Dake match-up.
Quote from: hammen on March 26, 2013, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 09:30:54 AM
Already has been settled on the mat.....Howe has beat Dake twice now, and has never lost.
Lots of progress. I'm a fan of both. Andrew is still battling injuries. I was told during Big Tens from a friend of his that he is still banged up, which is limiting his mat time. That has to be difficult for him to maintain the progress he had going into the Trials last year. I don't think the margin of victories was big, and I would expect a similar bout if Andrew can wrestle come the US Open. Really hope these two go at it. It would be great for wrestling, and I'm sure a lot of people will be rooting for Dake to see a Burroughs/Dake match-up.
Oh be quite hammen....you don't know what you are talking about!! Ha! Love you! :-*
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
Oh yeah.... the last time was year ago and the last time we seen Dake wrestle was THREE days ago! It doesn't matter that Howe made it farther in the trials then Dake did! It's all about match-ups! Plus they never wrestle is folkstyle so how can you say Howe is better? And Howe has been hurt for a year so to go out and say that Howe would win hands down is foolish! They would split if they wrestled 10 times! I'm a huge fan of both too but to go out there and say Howe would win any style and time is foolish! But you can keep living the past on your 2011 and 2012 stats!
Quote from: AgedInOak on March 25, 2013, 02:57:54 PM
This really should be a completely different post, but the best way to get rid of the issue of riding time vs. stalling is to get rid of folkstyle and let them wrestle freestyle in college (high school too for that matter), but I digress ;D I thought Dake should have got hit for stalling earlier and more often. The drama of what could be achieved by either wrestle with a win was compelling, the match itself was not a great match :(. Now let us hear some commentary about how I must not know anything about wrestling.
AgedinOak, you don't know wrestling! ;)
Actually got into an argument with a guy in the Sportspage that sits on the end of the bar, everyday, all day...anyway, he thought the match was boring and they were both stalling. I told him to stand up, let me tie up with him and see how long it took for him to hit the floor face first. He declined. I told him that isn't stalling then. HA! I thought it was extemely intense. Very well wrestled and yes, stalling is a part of wrestling. I think the rules verify that. 1 pt after the first warning, no chance of DQing for stalling. You get the lead in a huge match like that and believe me, you find a way to win without putting yourself in jeopardy or your lead in jeopardy. That's smart. Too bad non fans of the sport are turned off by it. Why would we care what non fans think? (you didn't say that oak, but others on here have). I know good wrestling when I see it and that was a great match. You know good wrestling too. I know you do.
As to Howe? Who cares? Howe who? Really. :-\
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
Oh yeah.... the last time was year ago and the last time we seen Dake wrestle was THREE days ago! It doesn't matter that Howe made it farther in the trials then Dake did! It's all about match-ups! Plus they never wrestle is folkstyle so how can you say Howe is better? And Howe has been hurt for a year so to go out and say that Howe would win hands down is foolish! They would split if they wrestled 10 times! I'm a huge fan of both too but to go out there and say Howe would win any style and time is foolish! But you can keep living the past on your 2011 and 2012 stats!
Phew....glad I have your support to keep living the past on actual facts and stats.....my day is complete. ::)
Stalling is always a difficult call. But one thing I feel is not considered enough in a match is when a wrestler has earned a lead, he should get more lenience. Just because he was more aggressive to earn the lead.
One of my biggest peeves in wrestling is that stalling calls are affected by the score. Stalling is stalling is stalling. It shouldn't matter if you have the lead or are behind.
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
Oh yeah.... the last time was year ago and the last time we seen Dake wrestle was THREE days ago! It doesn't matter that Howe made it farther in the trials then Dake did! It's all about match-ups! Plus they never wrestle is folkstyle so how can you say Howe is better? And Howe has been hurt for a year so to go out and say that Howe would win hands down is foolish! They would split if they wrestled 10 times! I'm a huge fan of both too but to go out there and say Howe would win any style and time is foolish! But you can keep living the past on your 2011 and 2012 stats!
Phew....glad I have your support to keep living the past on actual facts and stats.....my day is complete. ::)
Well I guess we will never find out who would win in FOLKSYLE but we do know if we go by STATS Dake is better!!
Quote from: MNbadger on March 26, 2013, 08:53:06 PM
One of my biggest peeves in wrestling is that stalling calls are affected by the score. Stalling is stalling is stalling. It shouldn't matter if you have the lead or are behind.
Totally agree with that. If a kid has a two point lead and can afford to give up a stalling point - fine.
I also hate it when referees think you can't call stalling more than once in 15-20 seconds. Example - 15 seconds left in the match and the kid with a one point lead literally starts running away from his opponent so the referee makes the stalling call
and the kid keeps doing exactly what he's doing.....but the referee won't make that second call, even though the kid is
still running away.....
I agree to an extent but there is a reason that kid is chasing the other kid...of course he is doing anything(many times wildly) to get the other kid to engage...but that wrestler would not be doing that if he were not down so late in the match....so I agree that there should be some leniency to the guy ahead.
Quote from: Kyle on March 25, 2013, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: zugzoo on March 25, 2013, 12:55:34 PM
I'm not saying that dropping down to an ankle and holding a guy is the same as having somebody flat on their back for 2 seconds,
Maybe you did not mean that, but that is what you said and that is what you would get if you got rid of stalling.
Kyle
Yeah? And then you would see a lot more kids trying different and cool things to get out from bottom.
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
Oh yeah.... the last time was year ago and the last time we seen Dake wrestle was THREE days ago! It doesn't matter that Howe made it farther in the trials then Dake did! It's all about match-ups! Plus they never wrestle is folkstyle so how can you say Howe is better? And Howe has been hurt for a year so to go out and say that Howe would win hands down is foolish! They would split if they wrestled 10 times! I'm a huge fan of both too but to go out there and say Howe would win any style and time is foolish! But you can keep living the past on your 2011 and 2012 stats!
Phew....glad I have your support to keep living the past on actual facts and stats.....my day is complete. ::)
Well I guess we will never find out who would win in FOLKSYLE but we do know if we go by STATS Dake is better!!
So Dake has beat Howe when??
Poor lil dman can't stop looking at the past - surprising ;)
Quote from: zugzoo on March 28, 2013, 02:01:41 PM
Quote from: Kyle on March 25, 2013, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: zugzoo on March 25, 2013, 12:55:34 PM
I'm not saying that dropping down to an ankle and holding a guy is the same as having somebody flat on their back for 2 seconds,
Maybe you did not mean that, but that is what you said and that is what you would get if you got rid of stalling.
Kyle
Yeah? And then you would see a lot more kids trying different and cool things to get out from bottom.
I already know what you would get. Back in the 70's stalling wasn't called nearly as quickly as it is today and it was legal to drop to the ankles and work for a stalemate as the bottom man was trying to escape and we did, and it wasn't as fun to watch as todays rules.
It aint broke so we don't need to fix it until it is.
Kyle
Quote from: hammen on March 28, 2013, 03:49:54 PM
Poor lil dman can't stop looking at the past - surprising ;)
Okay....you are right....using historical facts to predict future results is not a good way to think.....going off of pure assumptions and speculations is the way to go....got it!
I am so going to kick your butt next time I see you drew!! Ha! :-*
In regards to the Dake/Taylor match, I thought it was an awesome match and acquired great publicity for the sport of wrestling. In regards to stalling, I have a pet peeve when a ref calls stalling on a wrestler who is winning in the third period for something that both wrestlers were doing in the first period, second period, etc. Refs need to be consistent. If you didn't call it in the first period then it is not right to call it in the third because someone is winning.
Quote from: dman on March 28, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
Oh yeah.... the last time was year ago and the last time we seen Dake wrestle was THREE days ago! It doesn't matter that Howe made it farther in the trials then Dake did! It's all about match-ups! Plus they never wrestle is folkstyle so how can you say Howe is better? And Howe has been hurt for a year so to go out and say that Howe would win hands down is foolish! They would split if they wrestled 10 times! I'm a huge fan of both too but to go out there and say Howe would win any style and time is foolish! But you can keep living the past on your 2011 and 2012 stats!
Phew....glad I have your support to keep living the past on actual facts and stats.....my day is complete. ::)
Well I guess we will never find out who would win in FOLKSYLE but we do know if we go by STATS Dake is better!!
So Dake has beat Howe when??
Uhmmmm
(cough, cough)
Just had to bring this up...! ;)
Quote from: whatever on June 25, 2013, 09:09:55 AM
Quote from: dman on March 28, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: badgers on March 26, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: dman on March 26, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: badgers on March 25, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: dman on March 24, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on March 24, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Howe won in freestyle, NO way he beats Dake in folk style.
Ummm....what?? Coocoo....coocoo! I love how people disregard certain wrestlers when they haven't seen them wrestle in awhile. People always think the guy they like improves and no one else does. Howe does not lose to Dake.....period. Good match, but Howe beats him no matter what style it is.....he is a world class athlete.....Dake is on top of the NCAA wrestling world right now and I love the way he wrestles but he is no Andrew Howe.
Dman when's the last time you seen Howe wrestle then since you know for a fact he is better then Dake! To say that Dake is not a world class athlete is just foolish to say!
Hmmm....last time I saw Howe wrestle....oh yeah...the olympic trials where he man handled Taylor. He didn't get to wrestle Dake cause Dake lost to Paulson who then had to face Howe in the challenge finals. And then saw Howe give Jordan Buroughs all he could handle before getting hurt. Oh and there was the 2011 World Team trials where again, Howe made the challenge finals and won and Dake lost twice.
I am a huge Dake fan, but to say he is better than Howe.....based on what??
Oh yeah.... the last time was year ago and the last time we seen Dake wrestle was THREE days ago! It doesn't matter that Howe made it farther in the trials then Dake did! It's all about match-ups! Plus they never wrestle is folkstyle so how can you say Howe is better? And Howe has been hurt for a year so to go out and say that Howe would win hands down is foolish! They would split if they wrestled 10 times! I'm a huge fan of both too but to go out there and say Howe would win any style and time is foolish! But you can keep living the past on your 2011 and 2012 stats!
Phew....glad I have your support to keep living the past on actual facts and stats.....my day is complete. ::)
Well I guess we will never find out who would win in FOLKSYLE but we do know if we go by STATS Dake is better!!
So Dake has beat Howe when??
Uhmmmm (cough, cough)
Just had to bring this up...! ;)
Ha! Dake had an amazing tournament in a buzzsaw bracket then he ran into a gold medalist who showed that he is #1 in the world and in a league of his own. I did not expect that dominance by Burroughs, I thought he would win but it would be a closer match.
whether Dake can beat Howe in FS, is no longer a question of someone's opinion. He can......and he can beat Paulson......and he can beat Taylor.........and Taylor can hammer the inappropriate term3 out of Howe. And Dake needs some more time to figure out his mentor and biggest fan Burroughs.
Yep....Dake is the only one that will get better....no one else will. ::) ::)
TVL... did you watch the Taylor vs Howe match? Watching it, I did not see dominance by Taylor. That may sound silly considering it was a tech fall, but it was really just insanely tough defense by Taylor on a gutsy/risky attempt by Howe.
Anyway... it will be interesting to see if Taylor is in fact beyond Howe or if they are at the point where what happened is about the most lopsided it will ever get between those two.
Will they both be 165 for the NCAA season next year?
Andrew will be 174. Hopefully Taylor pulls a Dake and moves up. 174 would be pretty crazy. Only problem is the PSU lineup is best with Taylor at 165.
I agree with Hammen; looks like Howe will be 174 and Taylor 165. PSU has a National Runner-up at 174 and a Ruth moved up a weight as did Q to get him into the lineup. No, didn't see Howe/Taylor; will go look at it.
Just watched it. Just as I'm sitting here groaning about the amount of pain DT must be in from Howe's front headlock, DT counters, gets TD and a couple of tilts to end it. Same tilts that he does in Folkstyle. Great reaction by DT.
David Taylor is my favorite NCAA wrestler because of his flashy style. Face it, its fun to watch over Dake's boring defensive style. But when it comes to this topic im not sure Taylor will ever beat Dake? Trust me I want him to. lol.
LOL! I would have said the exact same thing but switching Dake and Taylor's names. Dake doesn't generally win 2-0. He is the most aggressive out there. I like Taylor; but he doesn't seem to have the toughness edge. Ah well, I'm happy agreeing to disagree. Both are just great to watch, IMHO.
Quote from: bigG on July 07, 2013, 06:26:48 PM
LOL! I would have said the exact same thing but switching Dake and Taylor's names. Dake doesn't generally win 2-0. He is the most aggressive out there. I like Taylor; but he doesn't seem to have the toughness edge. Ah well, I'm happy agreeing to disagree. Both are just great to watch, IMHO.
I actually totally agree with you Big G on Taylor's toughness unfortunately. Where as Dake has a Ton! I can't explain completely why I prefer Taylor's style to Dakes. It seems like Taylor's flow is less effortless. Like a good painter.
I know what you're saying. I usually prefer the guy with the best and most setups and shots. Watching Taylor is more fun. Watching Dake, I get that "GRRR!" effect. Just to watch Dake ride is scary. Taylor is so heads up and well-finessed; it's a bash to see him carve people up.
That said, Burroughs might only shot four times in a match; but he tends to score on three of those four. He has improved since the Olympics, even. Scary man, and on his own level.
Yes, Burroughs is the Apex predator for sure! And I know Burroughs would beat Taylor. No doubt. But I still prefer Taylor's style lol. I know its crazy, but Taylor to me is a mixture of Cael Sanderson and John Smith. "Well-Finessed" like Big G said. I actually remember John Smith wrestling in NCAA and I loved it.
Smith would have been a 4-timer if not for Jim Jordan, IMO.
Big G,
John Smith already had not placed as a freshman at NCAAs. He was 3rd seed at 126 but was upset 2nd round by Dan Foldesy of Cleveland State, and did not get to wrestle back, and wisely chose to go up to 134 the next year. Defending National Champ Clar Anderson was Smith's teammate and entrenched at 134.
And...Smith badly injured his shoulder in the semis at OK City in 1985 against Iowa's Greg Randall. So he wasn't going to beat Jordan no matter what that night.
That is a wealth of info. Cleveland State!
Quote from: OneEyedFatMan on July 11, 2013, 08:27:49 AM
Big G,
John Smith already had not placed as a freshman at NCAAs. He was 3rd seed at 126 but was upset 2nd round by Dan Foldesy of Cleveland State, and did not get to wrestle back, and wisely chose to go up to 134 the next year. Defending National Champ Clar Anderson was Smith's teammate and entrenched at 134.
And...Smith badly injured his shoulder in the semis at OK City in 1985 against Iowa's Greg Randall. So he wasn't going to beat Jordan no matter what that night.
Uh-uuuuuh. ;) I guess hindsight ain't 20/20. :D
You'll enjoy these.....very sorry my name isn't in any of em though! :P
http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/brackets.htm
Quote from: bigG on July 12, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: OneEyedFatMan on July 11, 2013, 08:27:49 AM
Big G,
John Smith already had not placed as a freshman at NCAAs. He was 3rd seed at 126 but was upset 2nd round by Dan Foldesy of Cleveland State, and did not get to wrestle back, and wisely chose to go up to 134 the next year. Defending National Champ Clar Anderson was Smith's teammate and entrenched at 134.
And...Smith badly injured his shoulder in the semis at OK City in 1985 against Iowa's Greg Randall. So he wasn't going to beat Jordan no matter what that night.
Uh-uuuuuh. ;) I guess hindsight ain't 20/20. :D
lol. I know his record wasn't as impressive as some. John Smith will always be my fav NCAA. That's why the love for Taylor. Same eccentricities. Same awesome low single. lol. Only wish they wore Badger singlets.
Smith was very different. Just could get that move done no matter what.
Use neck as a fulcrum against the tibia/fibula with heel lock.....
he had to figure out a way to finish a leg attack on Randy Lewis....and that was an incredibly smart way.
Quote from: bigG on July 12, 2013, 07:46:57 PM
Smith was very different. Just could get that move done no matter what.
Just had a move that he could make work when he needed it. Cael's pick, Ben Peterson's double, Burroughs' (GULP! scary) double. Many of our best had/have that go to move.
Quote from: OneEyedFatMan on July 15, 2013, 07:33:57 AM
Use neck as a fulcrum against the tibia/fibula with heel lock.....
he had to figure out a way to finish a leg attack on Randy Lewis....and that was an incredibly smart way.
Quote from: bigG on July 12, 2013, 07:46:57 PM
Smith was very different. Just could get that move done no matter what.
Randy Lewis was a unique defensive wrestler on the feet. I had the privilege of spending a few days being instructed by him (and hanging out with him off the mat) shortly after he tech falled everyone in the Olympics. He had a belief that nobody could take him down and results that backed up that mentality. The fact that Smith solved that very difficult puzzle speaks volumes about his wrestling prowess, mentally and physically.