Out of bounds rule

[Nutsnbolts]

Do we (fans/coaches/wrestlers) and especially officials even know how to judge this out of bounds rule??  For one, each official uses their own judgement on if the wrestlers are out of bounds or not - leading to so much inconsistency from ref to ref - and when we leave it up to the refs to make their own judgment it leads to problems.

Solution- switch to college out of bounds rules where you wrestle into the last body part is completely out of bounds. With this there is no judgement by the ref but rather makes it pretty clear whether they are out of bounds or not. I have seen too many situations where this has affected a match based off of the refs judgement.

Now, I am not knocking the refs - I understand each ref has their own idea of "what is out of bounds" with this rule.  I am just saying there is a way to make this easier on them to make the situation more clear.

[panther93]

YES, please. 

Two points of contact by either wrestling should not be that hard, but it is called very inconsistently.

[littleguy301]

Switch to other states rules. 1 toe nail is good enough. The way Wisconsin rule is way to grey area and leaves a ref to make up their own mind which leads to inconsistent calls.

[drbrad]

The problem I see with college rule is that many HS mats do not have sufficient boundary to have action that close to the edge.  I could be wrong, but it may be a safety issue. Also, NCAA still has disagreements/replays/controversy with their rule in place (e.g.- were ALL body parts outside the cylinder or not?). I think it's a matter of referee training.

I'm actually MUCH more concerned with stalling calls. I watched a regional match where the top guy basically rode parallel for two and a half periods (rode much of 1st, other guy chose down in 2nd, he chose top in 3rd). Few pinning combos, kept arm trapped, rarely got off parallel. Bottom wrestler was not as big and physical and did struggle from underneath. Every time he gained his knees, top guy rolled a wrist, broke him down and rode on hips for another 20 seconds... lather, rinse, repeat. Not blaming top wrestler- he did a whale of a job riding, and if ref doesn't warn him until well into the 3rd, why should he stop doing what's working for him? Bottom didn't escape or reverse, but never stopped working to knees, etc., never grabbed/held wrists or anything like that. Worked so hard on bottom his eyes were bloodshot afterward. I thought that was the reason for parallel ride rule- so a bigger wrestler couldn't just lay on the bottom guy. Apparently ref thought differently, as BOTTOM was called 3 times for stalling. Likely didn't change W/L outcome, but turned a close 2-1 final into a 4-1 final. Oh, ref finally did call parallel on top, but not until after 2nd bottom stall and half the crowd was yelling "He's STILL parallel". I also know who the bottom wrestler was- he's barely had 3 stalling calls against him in his entire HS CAREER before that match!

Several matches (and different ref) later, bottom wrestler faced an opponent known for deadly bar arms. Bottom basically grabbed top man's arms and laid on them to the point where top man was literally picking bottom man off the mat and to his knees with his deep waist arm. This match, TOP got stall warning for parallel. Just really hard to understand what stalling is and what it isn't based on individual refs.

Refs at our regional did generally a real nice job. No big boo-boos in scoring calls, certainly didn't alter any outcomes. However, the consistency of how and when stalling was called (esp. on mat) was, to put it nicely, not good. I've noticed many times this year that stall rules seem to be getting applied very differently match-to-match and ref-to-ref. Work definitely needs to be done on defining and training stalling to make it more consistently applied.

[yount19]

The out-of-bounds calls have been very inconsistent all season long...

As I understand the rule, there must be "2 supporting points" in bounds... but that doesn't include having just the toes of of both feet inside the circle... please correct me if I'm wrong...

I've seen plenty of takedowns this year given and not given when the wrestler had just their toes in bounds...

Stalling drives me crazy... especially when you have 2 really good wrestlers going at it... tough riding is not stalling because they can't turn their opponent... I'm not talking about staying parallel...

Then if a guy throws in the legs and attaches himself to the opponents hip... he gets to take unlimited time off the clock and a stalemate it called.... that's wrong in my opinion...

Bottom line... there's just not consistency between refs... I also understand that we are in need of more refs... I was a referee for a long time and I plan on getting back into it when my kids are done wrestling... I know how difficult it is to do... I'm not writing this to bash referees...

I'd also say when in doubt, let the kids decide the outcome...

[Army Ant]

Calls in H.S. are not as consistent as college because it is a much more complicated out of bounds rule. Total of 2 supporting points and the definition of supporting points is somewhat complicated, especially since it differs based upon the situation (on the feet vs. on the mat vs. a pinning situation and yes there is a nuance when the takedown is simultaneous - give the TD if only toes are in but still stop the match). Refs have to evaluate this within a split second sometimes. Also, sometimes wrestlers are technically inbounds but the action is stopped anyway due to safety concerns or because the out of bounds line itself is severely limiting the potential for scoring.

[ChargerDad]

Switch to other states rules. 1 toe nail is good enough. The way Wisconsin rule is way to grey area and leaves a ref to make up their own mind which leads to inconsistent calls.

Where do you see that the WI rules are different than other states?? Isn't this all NFHS?? Perhaps enforced a little different by different groups of officials, but I understand the rule to be the same and not a WIAA variance.

[yount19]

Army- I'm not talking about a complicated TD... I'm talking about the double-leg TD we've all seen a thousand times where they drag their toes just inside the circle...

Should that be a TD...? are those "2 supporting points"...

I'm just really curious.... and want to know the right answer...

[Army Ant]

Army- I'm not talking about a complicated TD... I'm talking about the double-leg TD we've all seen a thousand times where they drag their toes just inside the circle...

Should that be a TD...? are those "2 supporting points"...

I'm just really curious.... and want to know the right answer...

If the offensive toes are still inbounds when the TD is completed then it is a TD. Then the match is stopped because feet don't count as supporting points after wrestlers are down on the mat. I know it's weird.

It's a snapshot when the TD is completed, so if only has one toe in and then he brings the other toe back inbounds after the TD is completed they are still out of bounds and there's no TD counted.

[yount19]

10-4... makes sense and I understand with the emphasis of having "2 supporting points" in bounds that this doesn't get called the same way all the time...

[Spartan]

The problem I see with college rule is that many HS mats do not have sufficient boundary to have action that close to the edge.  I could be wrong, but it may be a safety issue. Also, NCAA still has disagreements/replays/controversy with their rule in place (e.g.- were ALL body parts outside the cylinder or not?). I think it's a matter of referee training.

I'm actually MUCH more concerned with stalling calls. I watched a regional match where the top guy basically rode parallel for two and a half periods (rode much of 1st, other guy chose down in 2nd, he chose top in 3rd). Few pinning combos, kept arm trapped, rarely got off parallel. Bottom wrestler was not as big and physical and did struggle from underneath. Every time he gained his knees, top guy rolled a wrist, broke him down and rode on hips for another 20 seconds... lather, rinse, repeat. Not blaming top wrestler- he did a whale of a job riding, and if ref doesn't warn him until well into the 3rd, why should he stop doing what's working for him? Bottom didn't escape or reverse, but never stopped working to knees, etc., never grabbed/held wrists or anything like that. Worked so hard on bottom his eyes were bloodshot afterward. I thought that was the reason for parallel ride rule- so a bigger wrestler couldn't just lay on the bottom guy. Apparently ref thought differently, as BOTTOM was called 3 times for stalling. Likely didn't change W/L outcome, but turned a close 2-1 final into a 4-1 final. Oh, ref finally did call parallel on top, but not until after 2nd bottom stall and half the crowd was yelling "He's STILL parallel". I also know who the bottom wrestler was- he's barely had 3 stalling calls against him in his entire HS CAREER before that match!

Several matches (and different ref) later, bottom wrestler faced an opponent known for deadly bar arms. Bottom basically grabbed top man's arms and laid on them to the point where top man was literally picking bottom man off the mat and to his knees with his deep waist arm. This match, TOP got stall warning for parallel. Just really hard to understand what stalling is and what it isn't based on individual refs.

Refs at our regional did generally a real nice job. No big boo-boos in scoring calls, certainly didn't alter any outcomes. However, the consistency of how and when stalling was called (esp. on mat) was, to put it nicely, not good. I've noticed many times this year that stall rules seem to be getting applied very differently match-to-match and ref-to-ref. Work definitely needs to be done on defining and training stalling to make it more consistently applied.

The Safety area argument is not true at all I have not seen a mat in the past five years of officiating in this state where they had less than a 4 foot safety area on the mat.  College made it a rule to have a 5 foot safety area. NFHS could do the same, but the majority of the mats like the dolomar style mats have 5 foot safety areas

[Army Ant]

I was thinking more about situations where the wrestlers are moving toward the OOB quickly with momentum and there is a wall, table, floor, wrestling going on on an adjacent mat, etc. there so the ref may blow the whistle early. I've seen a few mats with <4 feet buffer since the schoools sometimes try to cram an extra mat into a tight gym.

[drbrad]

The out-of-bounds calls have been very inconsistent all season long...

As I understand the rule, there must be "2 supporting points" in bounds... but that doesn't include having just the toes of of both feet inside the circle... please correct me if I'm wrong...

I've seen plenty of takedowns this year given and not given when the wrestler had just their toes in bounds...

Stalling drives me crazy... especially when you have 2 really good wrestlers going at it... tough riding is not stalling because they can't turn their opponent... I'm not talking about staying parallel...

Then if a guy throws in the legs and attaches himself to the opponents hip... he gets to take unlimited time off the clock and a stalemate it called.... that's wrong in my opinion...

Bottom line... there's just not consistency between refs... I also understand that we are in need of more refs... I was a referee for a long time and I plan on getting back into it when my kids are done wrestling... I know how difficult it is to do... I'm not writing this to bash referees...

I'd also say when in doubt, let the kids decide the outcome...

Yount, I agree with not bashing the refs. It's a tough job and it's very difficult to find enough good refs to go around. Despite the sportsmanship rules we all know, most fans get on the refs when they feel they "deserve" it (pleading guilty myself!). Luckily, I doubt much of that static actually gets heard by the refs. My objective was to point out another area (stalling) that (like OOB rule) refs could get more consistent. We should all be looking for every possible way to help refs improve their trade. Like you, I HATE the leg ride rule, especially double leg ride (which by design IS a parallel ride). I agree that it's stupid to let top throw in two legs and ride as long as they want, when they would get called for stalling if they simply took the legs out. It's even more silly when bottom guy gets called for stalling when top man has them saddled and broken down with a double leg ride. However, that's a RULE issue. I can have no complaints with the refs when they are implementing a rule the way it's written, and I HAVE seen more stalemates called in that situation this year. Would love to see that part of the rule changed, though.

[littleguy301]

Switch to other states rules. 1 toe nail is good enough. The way Wisconsin rule is way to grey area and leaves a ref to make up their own mind which leads to inconsistent calls.

Where do you see that the WI rules are different than other states?? Isn't this all NFHS?? Perhaps enforced a little different by different groups of officials, but I understand the rule to be the same and not a WIAA variance.

Minnesota. They do by the college rule if there is action on the edge. If it is basic riding or hand fighting they move the kids back to the middle but if there is a pinning combo or a potential takedown or anything offensive they go with basically 1 toe nail in rule like college.

What I like about the Minnesota rule is it is so basic not like Wisconsin when you have to draw an imagination cone and make sure 2 complete supporting points are with in that cone. I like the if 2 toes are in your in.

Not sure what exactly the NFHS rules state but some states do have their own rules. The NFHS is guideline I believe. Look at the states that are doing their weights other than wisconsin.

[davebrandvold]

I will try and give a "cliff notes" version  of the out of bounds calls.  FYI, Wisconsin is following the NFHS and the NFHS is stuck on the safety and mat space at the edge of the mat.   Minnesota and a few states have always moved toward college interps quicker than other states & that is why they can wrestle & be in bounds with one point of contact.
 
O of B is complicated due to what is considered points of contact....feet are supporting points while in the neutral position on the feet while during mat wrestling they are no longer considered pts. of contact.   There are excellent pics and figures in the rules books that show the simple points of out of bounds.   (Knees, hip, thigh, hands, shoulder, butt, back,head are all pts. of contact).

Neutral position with three feet out, the wrestlers are out.   A man in a lift and has opponent off his feet and steps out with one foot...they are out.  One opponent out and one all the way in, they are in.  A snap go behind while one man only has his hands inside the mat..they are in....Hands are two points of contact.
Offensive scrambles on the edge of the mat with lots of action, we typically let the action go and watch for a finish of two points in or if they are out..This area is muddy but coaches want us to err in favor of scoring offense.

If the wrestler is on his back and one shoulder is in bounds, (all other parts of both wrestlers are out)  the wrestlers are considered in and the wrestler may score points or record a fall.   

Both butt cheeks are considered in,  one hip and thigh are considered in,    a foot or hand on the hardwood are considered out, and while pinning you need to have a foot and one knee inside the line.   

And we have the control position on the edge of the mat when no action is taking place, officials have the ability to stop the match and bring them in for a restart.

How can there be any inconsistency with officials' O of B calls with these simplified rules.   Until we get to one point of contact on or inside the line, the O fo B will be very difficult to navigate.   I do believe most officials make the right calls on the edge nearly all the time but there is no clear way for even the most knowledgeable fan to follow the multiple rules & situations on edge of the mat.   I'm not touching stalling.   

Great topic.  Good luck to your favorite wrestlers and teams while at state.