So here goes. Our AD was notified by an AD at another school in our conference that our schedule was in violation of the rules. This notification was made to us the Friday after our last dual February 3rd. Which school told us and how long they new for I am not getting into. The De Pere AD notified the Wiaa immediately afterit was brought to his attention. So self reported yes, self discovered no. We supplied the Wiaa with a spreadsheet with all our matches, dates, what events and how they were classified (jv or varsity). The wiaa worked with our AD and head coach to find a way to make us eligible for regionals that night. NO information was left off the spreadsheet, so the Wiaa's claim that they had new information is 100% false. I was not in on the call that told us we were eligible so how the wiaa interpreted that information I do not know. We were told this Wednesday February 15th that due to new information the Wiaa was ruling us ineligible as of 7:00 am the next morning. The Wiaa informed us that two member schools had informed them that we wrestled an illegal schedule (a fact that we never disputed) and they needed to review the information. Everything that happened at the appeal has been well discussed on the other De Pere thread, and most of the information is correct. Now, I myself take responsibility for the mistake. I do not do the scheduling but I have been involved in this program for 11 years now and I know better than to put my faith in individuals who do not appreciate the sport of wrestling as much as I do. I have coached most of these wrestlers since they were in grade school. I failed them. They do not deserve to be punished but that is the ruling that was given to them, and I have to live with that. We appreciate all the support we have received in the past few days. I told our kids to keep their heads up! If people feel the need to try to take you down then you have already won. Three years ago nobody would have said a word if De Pere had wrestled in 30 events, and that is a credit to the hard work these young MEN have put in to make De Pere Wrestling relevant. It will be hard for them to understand the ruling nor do I expect them too. I would ask people to only speak on this matter if you are educated on the situation, which I hope I have helped with, and not make dumb comments and then hide behind your screen name.
Thank You,
Brian Corrigan
This is a really unfortunate situation. Why isn't there some compliance function as part of the WIAA? Schedules are published at the beginning of the season. Why is DePere being subjected to this at a point in the process that they have no ability to correct the situation? My guess is once the the spreadsheet was submitted it was pretty easy to see that DePere was not in compliance. Why not have schedules validated by the WIAA at the beginning of the season? Seems like a reasonable checkpoint. Are teams adding events in the middle of the season? Maybe it will never happen again based on this occurrence, but it seems to me that it should have never happened this way in the first place.
Thank you Brian for posting what occurred.
Wade Labecki was the one who signed off on the approval. Wade Labecki had all the information provided for him. He should have made the correct decision the first time before regionals. End of story. Once he made hi initial decision it should have been final. He needed a coach from Kaukauna to tell him where to look (you would think he would know where to look). So he reverses his decision and puts the De Pere boys through this again.
Then the part that gets me equally as much is he implies to Gannett news that the De Pere administrators and coaches did not get him all the information the first time. That gets me that he can hide behind that comment, when it is not at all accurate.
The WIAA's handling of this is terrible. Wade needs to be called out just like the De Pere coaches and AD are deservedly being called out.
On a side note I hope other teams think twice about inviting Kaukauna to tournaments in the future. How they get to host both Regionals and Sectionals is beyond me. Plenty of other nice gyms here in the Valley.
No good deed goes unpunished. Self-report and get burned. You did nothing wrong coach. The kids wrestled an extra tournament or meet and are therefore ineligible to complete the the season???
Some tournaments give kids 3 matches others 7 over two days (Cheesehead etc..) but now we all pretend because these kids showed up to one extra event their hard work for a lifetime gets tossed out the window right before the most important time in the season. This is just wrong. Is it the number of matches the kid wrestles that matters or the number of events they attend that matter? There are schools that have athletes with 50 matche's , others with 30.
These kids were cheated out of their chance to compete for a state title for no reason.
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 10:12:39 PM
The Wisconsin schools that go to the Cheesehead should skip out and make another tournament stronger! I hope the out of state teams hear about this too! Get some karma going!
Where are you even from? Are you Upset because kaukauna beats up on you or something? Or are you mad that your team isn't good enough to make it in the cheesehead or something? This shouldn't be put on Kaukauna because some other school can't add.
It takes Lots guts stepping up here coach. Thanks for your response.
I see you were aware that the team or school or program violated the rules. Is this correct?
Was the decision by the WIAA that interpreted that you had violated the rules wrong?
Did you have an opportunity to present your case to the WIAA?
So another program or someone reported the potential violations to the WIAA?
You made statement about trusting someone who "does not take wrestling as serious" as you with the scheduling?
What does this mean you had doubts about the ADs ability to follow rules or schedule correctly?
If so did you approach and discuss this issue with a higher authority at the school such as the Principle or Admin staff?
If the WIAA got this information from you or your AD and from the other schools reporting the violation would it be reasonable to contend that they had to have time to go through the evidence to determine exactly what happened? My thought here is you have allot of information aka evidence coming from different places and consideration of the source certainly has to be evaluated. This may mean taking the time to varify and investigate that information presented from different sources. I mean you want to be sure right?
So you said the WIAA had enough information was that what they said or was this your (or the AD that you may not trust) interpretation?
So if they had not allowed the wrestlers to compete during the Regionals and the investigation went in favor how would they go back and fix the Sectional qualifications? Chicken or the egg here.
Seems to me they wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt for the wrestlers looking for any angle to try let these young men wrestle without compromising the integrity of the rule.
You do not have to answer these and I will understand it if you do not, but I just want to try and get clear picture of what happened here.
As I said, we did not know we were in violation. If I did I would not have risked putting our kids in this situation. An AD from another school in our conference sent an email to our AD stating that they felt we were in violation. At that point the De Pere AD reported it to the WIAA. So as I stated before we self reported but we did not realize our error. We added a tournament two years ago and I asked that our schedule was verified and we were within the rules. I was told we were, and this is the part where I blame myself for not picking up the phone and doing it myself. When the violation was reported the WIAA asked for a full list of our matches. We sent ALL of our kids matches to them with the event name, date, and classification. To my knowledge they used trackwrestling to try to verify our matches/events. They did not know how to use trackwrestling correctly and obviously never looked at the spreed sheet. We knew after looking into it we were in violation. Again, I was not in on the phone call when we were ruled eligible to wrestle at regionals. I do not know there rationalization for making that decision. There reason for changing their mind is that they had new information, which I stated before is 100% false. During the appeal, they told us one of the two schools who was responsible for the secondary complaint because that school is represented on the WIAA board. I think most people already know who that is. We violated the rule, we deserved to be punished, no one is arguing that. Does the punishment fit the crime? Are the right people being punished? Was there really a need for the two schools to pursue this after the initial ruling? That is for everyone else to decide. That's why we love the forum. I don't have anything to hide. It is a terrible situation no matter what side you agree with.
First I again want to thank you for posting it is not easy I am sure and appreciate that you are taking the time.
You are correct it is very tragic.
Now you admitted that you were not on the phone call but then state the finding of new evidence is "completely false".
What evidence do you have the WIAA never looked at the spread sheet or knows how to use Track Wrestling?
That seems alittle far fetched they use track for the entire tournament series and most meets and tournaments are on track or at least the larger percentage are. That assumption would mean the WIAA does not have the resources or contract people to look at Track with trained experienced eyes. That seems odd to me that you are making this assumption. Some meets and Tournaments might not be , were those not on Track included on the spread sheet? They must have been because you admitted you were in violation.
I understand the self reporting but it is still a violation? In most of the bylaws the violation has the punishment pretty clearly defined and the WIAA had set a precedence in previous simular instances although different sports they set the precedence. If they strayed from that precedence what type message or litigation would they open themselves up to?
Does self reporting dictate a different set of rules or punishment?
Do you hold any disdain for the school or people who brought this violation forward to the AD or WIAA?
Do you think the head coach,coaches or the AD should be aware of this rule?
In your last post you seemed to indicate some concerned about the schedule prior to executing it did you go the AD and ask him or her to get clarification on the concerns?
Did the AD when these concerns were raised go any further with this to get clarification? If not why not?
I absolutely agree this is just terrible for those wrestlers, the WIAA , the State Tournament and the fans but mostly for the wrestlers and thier families who saw them work so hard to get this opportunity. Yup they should be mad as inappropriate term3 but I wonder who is responsible? The contracts with the WIAA are signed as School District not as indivdual coaches, athletes or ADs but as an ENTIRE School District (Team or program entity) for those sports you want to be part of that organization. When that contract is signed you sign up for the oversight and rules as well as the defined punishment for rule violation. What you do within the school as a Dsitrict with those involved is your business and the School Boards and Admin teams call. But when you agree to be part of the WIAA you know what you are signing up for. If you do not then you need to get up to speed. Sad terrible situation.
Again thank you for stepping up to takes allot courage to do so and there is no doubt how terrible you feel about this.
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 08:32:09 PM
Soooooo PATHETIC of the 2 schools! PAAAAAAATHETIC!!!!!!!
I think most believe Kaukauna (either coaches, parents, and/or wrestlers) wanted The DePere wrestlers in violation removed from the State series, because now Kaukauna might get additional wrestlers down to State since they are in that Sectional. There was an opening and Kaukauna pounced to benefit their program or was it just double checking that the WIAA made the "right" decision this week?
knight/purgolder
I finally agree with you on something:) (you are not so bad after all:).
Kaukauna will get their Karma in the future. Wisconsin teams need to skip the Cheesehead unequivocally (and yes I have gone to the Cheesehead to watch good high school wrestling ... but never again).
De Pere was wrong ... inadvertently and they admitted it (and no competitive advantage at all, unless you call a dual with Sheboygan North, South, or Manitowoc an advantage), but were declared eligible prior to regionals only to have Kaukauna have to tell Wade Labecki how to look at the info he was provided initially. De Pere kids possibly deserved to be disqualified prior to regionals, but not after they were allowed to compete in the first round of the WIAA tournament series. Wade Labecki needs to be a stand up individual and apologize publicly and admit his negligence in the handling of this situation.
Wade it is on you right now. You need to be forthright in your negligence.
Once again the WIAA has disgraced the great state of Wisconsin.
What upsets me about this the most is the WIAA seems to be treating De Pere differently than the last time I can recall this happening. The last time I remember this happening the WIAA decided to take away all the points the person earned at the last regular season tournament, but did nothing to change the post season. Had they of ruled in that case as they did with De Pere, Stoughton would have one more state championship and a "Big Red" power would have one less. One needs to be consistent or it appears as though they are playing favorites. This situation is De Pere's fault and no one else, but they should have been treated the same as any other wrestling team.
Quote from: Andersonman1234 on February 17, 2017, 10:43:25 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 10:12:39 PM
The Wisconsin schools that go to the Cheesehead should skip out and make another tournament stronger! I hope the out of state teams hear about this too! Get some karma going!
Where are you even from? Are you Upset because kaukauna beats up on you or something? Or are you mad that your team isn't good enough to make it in the cheesehead or something? This shouldn't be put on Kaukauna because some other school can't add.
Where are you from?...Kaukana? Why should Kaukana not be in the discussion? After all, they brought the infraction to the attention of Depere and the WIAA. They also (apparently) appealed the initial ruling as well. It would seem to me someone in Kaukana has something to gain by taking away these opportunities from Depere wrestlers. Is someone from Kaukana that otherwise would not have made the state tournament now going to? I don't know, but I see no other reason why they would be concerned with, or even know the number of matches of another school. Or is it just that Kaukana is as pure as the wind driven snow and just could not let even the most minor infraction ruin the integrity of the sport?
Quote from: ramjet on February 18, 2017, 12:19:24 AM
First I again want to thank you for posting it is not easy I am sure and appreciate that you are taking the time.
You are correct it is very tragic.
Now you admitted that you were not on the phone call but then state the finding of new evidence is "completely false".
What evidence do you have the WIAA never looked at the spread sheet or knows how to use Track Wrestling?
That seems alittle far fetched they use track for the entire tournament series and most meets and tournaments are on track or at least the larger percentage are. That assumption would mean the WIAA does not have the resources or contract people to look at Track with trained experienced eyes. That seems odd to me that you are making this assumption. Some meets and Tournaments might not be , were those not on Track included on the spread sheet? They must have been because you admitted you were in violation.
I understand the self reporting but it is still a violation? In most of the bylaws the violation has the punishment pretty clearly defined and the WIAA had set a precedence in previous simular instances although different sports they set the precedence. If they strayed from that precedence what type message or litigation would they open themselves up to?
Does self reporting dictate a different set of rules or punishment?
Do you hold any disdain for the school or people who brought this violation forward to the AD or WIAA?
Do you think the head coach,coaches or the AD should be aware of this rule?
In your last post you seemed to indicate some concerned about the schedule prior to executing it did you go the AD and ask him or her to get clarification on the concerns?
Did the AD when these concerns were raised go any further with this to get clarification? If not why not?
I absolutely agree this is just terrible for those wrestlers, the WIAA , the State Tournament and the fans but mostly for the wrestlers and thier families who saw them work so hard to get this opportunity. Yup they should be mad as blazes but I wonder who is responsible? The contracts with the WIAA are signed as School District not as indivdual coaches, athletes or ADs but as an ENTIRE School District (Team or program entity) for those sports you want to be part of that organization. When that contract is signed you sign up for the oversight and rules as well as the defined punishment for rule violation. What you do within the school as a Dsitrict with those involved is your business and the School Boards and Admin teams call. But when you agree to be part of the WIAA you know what you are signing up for. If you do not then you need to get up to speed. Sad terrible situation.
Again thank you for stepping up to takes allot courage to do so and there is no doubt how terrible you feel about this.
Ram,
You are off base here, the coach gave you the facts and then you have a barrage of questions.
De Pere violated the rules. Someone in their conf made them aware (fan- that is not Kaukauna). They reported it and the WIAA found them in violation but allowed them to wrestle while putting them on probation.
Now the WIAA is saying they have more information. When this came out before regionals, I clicked on track, seasons and searched De Pere. It took me 5 minutes to check (clicking on a tournament to see if this was varsity or JV).
They wrestled 8 duals (2 were on the same night which can either be 2 duals or 1 multi), they had 7 multi's besides the double dual.
There could be no new information, it was all right there. The only logical reason for probation was they counted 6&8 which violates 7&7 but not 14. That tells me they can't count to 7.
I will agree with Ram that we all agree the punishment is not appropriate and should be fought to be changed. While the punishment is misdirected, I would definitely understand had it been prior to regionals as there has been precedence (Westosha).
Ram - check the other thread on De Pere and some additional relevant facts are there. In the appeal hearing, Wade Labecki stated the WIAA checked trackwrestling but looked at the team page and not each individual wrestler page. On the Tuesday before regionals, the WIAA issued a written ruling that our young men were eligible. This past Wednesday, Kaukauna and one other school contacted the WIAA and told them they should look at individual pages and not the team page. That is what led the WIAA to reverse their decision on Thursday.
Our AD and coaches have taken full responsibility for the counting error. That is not in dispute by anyone. Personally, my issue with the WIAA is with how they handled this and the lack of any responsibility they took.
This could have been resolved before regionals even started. They had a full week to look into this thoroughly. Everyone assumed they had when they issues their ruling. Then to change it after regionals?!? Had they ruled our kids ineligible before regionals started, I could live with that decision. Then it comes down to the argument about the punishment fitting the crime. The problem is they did not and impacted more than just De Pere. What about the kid who decided to lose or gain weight to avoid a De Pere wrestler at regionals or sectionals? What about the kid who took second place at regionals? The WIAA took away his moment to be announced as a regional champion. What about the kid who took fifth at regionals, thought he was done for the year and then finds out the day before sectionals that he is back in the tournament? What happens if he is overweight and now has to cut 10 pounds by today?
That is where the decision by the WIAA to reverse itself after the tournament series has started fails. Again, had the WIAA declared them ineligible before regionals, we could have accepted it. But the WIAA told them they could compete and then ripped it from them.
Quote from: faceplant on February 18, 2017, 07:18:54 AM
Ram - check the other thread on De Pere and some additional relevant facts are there. In the appeal hearing, Wade Labecki stated the WIAA checked trackwrestling but looked at the team page and not each individual wrestler page. On the Tuesday before regionals, the WIAA issued a written ruling that our young men were eligible. This past Wednesday, Kaukauna and one other school contacted the WIAA and told them they should look at individual pages and not the team page. That is what led the WIAA to reverse their decision on Thursday.
Our AD and coaches have taken full responsibility for the counting error. That is not in dispute by anyone. Personally, my issue with the WIAA is with how they handled this and the lack of any responsibility they took.
This could have been resolved before regionals even started. They had a full week to look into this thoroughly. Everyone assumed they had when they issues their ruling. Then to change it after regionals?!? Had they ruled our kids ineligible before regionals started, I could live with that decision. Then it comes down to the argument about the punishment fitting the crime. The problem is they did not and impacted more than just De Pere. What about the kid who decided to lose or gain weight to avoid a De Pere wrestler at regionals or sectionals? What about the kid who took second place at regionals? The WIAA took away his moment to be announced as a regional champion. What about the kid who took fifth at regionals, thought he was done for the year and then finds out the day before sectionals that he is back in the tournament? What happens if he is overweight and now has to cut 10 pounds by today?
That is where the decision by the WIAA to reverse itself after the tournament series has started fails. Again, had the WIAA declared them ineligible before regionals, we could have accepted it. But the WIAA told them they could compete and then ripped it from them.
So I am clear, you are NOT blaming the the WIAA for the punishment but just that they should have done it before Regionals because they setup the kids for a hard fall?
If that's the case then I can understand your issue and that's what needs to be changed and worked towards.
But based on the other coaches statement on here it would be easy to construd that thier was some concern with the scheduling and that being the case it seems that if the proper steps had been taken at that point these young men would wrestling. That was the reason I was asking all the questions. I was trying tomnderstand the chain of events that lead up to this unfortunate situation. Plus let's face it the WIAA is NOT going to come on here and give a statement. Heck you have people threatening to file a Law suit already so they are not dumb enough to put themselves in a compromising position. Nor should they.
This is the last I will say on this; The AD failed here the coaches did to lessor degree as well the fallout punished the young men that should be wrestling today. The WIAA should have handled this in manner that might have been more concise and with swift and definite ruling. Not one of us posting on this topic that was not directly involved can do anything about what happened but any and all of us can make a difference in the future. I am sorry for the wrestlers and this terrible chain of events. But in time the disappointment and pain from this will pass. Thank you for adding first hand info to this discussion and I hope the best of luck and good in the future.
Quote from: bigoil on February 18, 2017, 06:48:49 AM
Ram,
You are off base here, the coach gave you the facts and then you have a barrage of questions.
De Pere violated the rules. Someone in their conf made them aware (fan- that is not Kaukauna). They reported it and the WIAA found them in violation but allowed them to wrestle while putting them on probation.
Now the WIAA is saying they have more information. When this came out before regionals, I clicked on track, seasons and searched De Pere. It took me 5 minutes to check (clicking on a tournament to see if this was varsity or JV).
They wrestled 8 duals (2 were on the same night which can either be 2 duals or 1 multi), they had 7 multi's besides the double dual.
There could be no new information, it was all right there. The only logical reason for probation was they counted 6&8 which violates 7&7 but not 14. That tells me they can't count to 7.
I will agree with Ram that we all agree the punishment is not appropriate and should be fought to be changed. While the punishment is misdirected, I would definitely understand had it been prior to regionals as there has been precedence (Westosha).
Thanks for the clarification. It has been stated numerous times (on this subject) that Kaukana is in some way involved...you are the first person that I saw dispute this. This situation is bad enough without adding misinformation. I certainly don't mean to add more chaos in that regard. The WIAA will surely not clarify anything. They will hide behind their decision and not be heard from as always. We peons do not deserve an informed explanation and God forbid anyone questions their all encompassing authority. They can't punish me in any way, so I don't have to be silent with my disgust with their decision. I would think most coaches / AD's also have to be very careful not to ruffle any feathers with the WIAA. The potential consequences aren't worth them offering an opinion...unless of course they stand behind the WIAA's decision.
There seems to be a fair amount of Kaukauna bashing. Why? The WIAA proudly states that they are "policed by their members". Is Kaukauna not a member of the WIAA? If they did report this wouldn't that be part of their responsibility? Meaning, if I as a member school notice a violation by another school is it not my responsibility to bring that violation to the attention of the WIAA? That is part of the responsibility of our society. If you see someone breaking the rules do you simply turn your head and ignore it?
If you look at the statements made, it seems De Pere had been in violation for a couple seasons. I am kind of surprised the WIAA did not go back and strip them of wins for the past 2 years. Not saying I am in favor of that just saying I could see that as being a penalty as well.
Kudos to the coach for stepping up, making a statement and taking responsibility but it is disappointing that people are trying to make Kaukauna the scapegoat in this matter simply for doing what they are required to do as part of an organization that is self policed by its members.
By the way...I am NOT part of Kaukauna HS...
Does a member of the WIAA work for the KK Schools? Yes. Do they have anything to do with KK Wrestling program? No
They were contacted by WIAA for clarification of the to rules, the reason they were hired. As long as we are all members of the WIAA, we are all under microscopes.
What happened to the DePere kids is a tragedy. They shouldn't be punished for their hard work. Period. This is on people who don't know or follow the rules.
Trust me, there are no KK kids that stand to Victor from the situation.
Quote from: wraslfan on February 18, 2017, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: bigoil on February 18, 2017, 06:48:49 AM
Ram,
You are off base here, the coach gave you the facts and then you have a barrage of questions.
De Pere violated the rules. Someone in their conf made them aware (fan- that is not Kaukauna). They reported it and the WIAA found them in violation but allowed them to wrestle while putting them on probation.
Now the WIAA is saying they have more information. When this came out before regionals, I clicked on track, seasons and searched De Pere. It took me 5 minutes to check (clicking on a tournament to see if this was varsity or JV).
They wrestled 8 duals (2 were on the same night which can either be 2 duals or 1 multi), they had 7 multi's besides the double dual.
There could be no new information, it was all right there. The only logical reason for probation was they counted 6&8 which violates 7&7 but not 14. That tells me they can't count to 7.
I will agree with Ram that we all agree the punishment is not appropriate and should be fought to be changed. While the punishment is misdirected, I would definitely understand had it been prior to regionals as there has been precedence (Westosha).
Thanks for the clarification. It has been stated numerous times (on this subject) that Kaukana is in some way involved...you are the first person that I saw dispute this. This situation is bad enough without adding misinformation. I certainly don't mean to add more chaos in that regard. The WIAA will surely not clarify anything. They will hide behind their decision and not be heard from as always. We peons do not deserve an informed explanation and God forbid anyone questions their all encompassing authority. They can't punish me in any way, so I don't have to be silent with my disgust with their decision. I would think most coaches / AD's also have to be very careful not to ruffle any feathers with the WIAA. The potential consequences aren't worth them offering an opinion...unless of course they stand behind the WIAA's decision.
Fan, someone in their conference initially brought it up. Sounds like a Kaukauna and another school came in after regionals
Getting past all the questioning of motivations for a bit..
Can anyone actually argue that the punishment fits the crime, or that those responsible for the infractions are the ones that are being punished... obviously the coaches and AD are openly taking accountability, which takes pirate. The WIAA needs to be able to use some common sense and show some compassion in situations like this. Yes, there infractions.. but the punishment handed down here is like pulling someone over for going 5mph over, and then throwing the passengers who were just riding in the back seat in jail..
The real problem is, just like corporate America, the guy in the suit walks away unscathed. The guy in the suit (The AD) should be fined, suspended, and/or a plethora of other punishments should be handed down. The school board is ultimately responsible for placing the correct people in the correct position and clearly there was neglect and oversight by the AD. The coach has stepped up and owned his mistakes. The wrestlers punished is a huge problem - whether or not the WIAA has ruled this way previously has nothing to do with ensuring the punishment fits the crime. The WIAA has a DUTY to uphold it's bylaws, correct. However, the WIAA needs to be reasonable in approach and needs to punish those who violated the rules (ahem, this was not the student athletes who we have clearly identified got stepped on the mat and wrestled like they were lead to do). Punishing the student athletes is the wrong move now as it was most likely the wrong move previously. I feel for those involved in this and for those that reported this a second time - they will have their day as well.
#FreeDePere
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 18, 2017, 08:36:39 AM
Quote from: wraslfan on February 18, 2017, 06:13:09 AM
Quote from: Andersonman1234 on February 17, 2017, 10:43:25 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 10:12:39 PM
The Wisconsin schools that go to the Cheesehead should skip out and make another tournament stronger! I hope the out of state teams hear about this too! Get some karma going!
Where are you even from? Are you Upset because kaukauna beats up on you or something? Or are you mad that your team isn't good enough to make it in the cheesehead or something? This shouldn't be put on Kaukauna because some other school can't add.
Where are you from?...Kaukana? Why should Kaukana not be in the discussion? After all, they brought the infraction to the attention of Depere and the WIAA. They also (apparently) appealed the initial ruling as well. It would seem to me someone in Kaukana has something to gain by taking away these opportunities from Depere wrestlers. Is someone from Kaukana that otherwise would not have made the state tournament now going to? I don't know, but I see no other reason why they would be concerned with, or even know the number of matches of another school. Or is it just that Kaukana is as pure as the wind driven snow and just could not let even the most minor infraction ruin the integrity of the sport?
It doesn't matter where I'm from! The questions you ask me sound cocky and arrogant! I can't stand how shady, spineless, cowards,weasels would go to lengths to ruin others lives! Kaukauna is a winning program without the suspect stuff! I don't care if De Pere was wrong! Kaukauna and whatever the other school that told are PATHETIC! And to make it clear, I'm not talking about the kids!
My questions are just like yours! You sounded cocky and arrogant as well, so we have something in common. ;D I am (was) simply for the Depere kids being able to wrestle, and disagree with any adult, program or incompetent organization that argued that they should not be able to.
I feel a bit like Bob Woodward from the washington post..but unlike him, I'm not going to :-X a thing.......and that is something that only Carl Bernstein could understand... ;)
Boycott the Cheesehead as teams and as spectators.
LOL...Really?..let it go, the Cheesehead Tournament is one of the best, if not they best in the country, and you want to put some type of negativety towards, NOT! all one has to do to see how tough that tournament is, is look at how a few of the Iowa State winners from last nights finals did at the Cheesehead...NONE WON the tournament ... :)
Quote from: Hoople on February 19, 2017, 11:40:14 AM
Boycott the Cheesehead as teams and as spectators.
There you go...penalize another team for doing what they are supposed to do as WIAA member school...self police the members. Great idea...so when another team is caught doing something against the rules everyone will be afraid to make a report because of the repercussions by the rest of the wrestling community. Kaukauna is not the bad guy in this...IF they brought the violation to the attention of the school they simply did what they should do as a member of the WIAA.
From other posts it seems DePere had been in violation of this rule for a few years. The WIAA may have been able to (or considered) strip the team of past wins because of the past violations.
Quote from: Hoople on February 19, 2017, 11:40:14 AM
Boycott the Cheesehead as teams and as spectators.
Good luck with that. ::) Those who boycott know they'll be denying their kids an opportunity to wrestle the best. No other tourney in WI comes close, man. Back to reality, here.
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 19, 2017, 01:57:31 PM
Maybe enough people boycott the tournament then it won't be the elite tournament that it is! And bulldog Kaukana and the other team strategically told the WIAA! And I do hope this shows people to mind their own business! Just PATHETIC!
Yeah isn't it just pathetic of kaukauna to follow the rules. But it's not pathetic that depere can't follow the rules hmm.
Boycott the Cheese. Those spots will be filled, quick.
Glad I'm not in the know enough to really comment on either program. DePere made a mistake; I don't know how the whistle was blown nor who blew it.
Hope we can all move on.
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 19, 2017, 01:57:31 PM
Maybe enough people boycott the tournament then it won't be the elite tournament that it is! And bulldog Kaukana and the other team strategically told the WIAA! And I do hope this shows people to mind their own business! Just PATHETIC!
It IS Kaukauna's business and they were minding it. I have stated this half a dozen times but let's try again. The WIAA is "policed" by their members. So a rule violation would be the "business" of all coaches and ADs that are employed by WIAA member school. What "strategy" do you think Kaukuana had that benefited them by reporting De Pere...if they did. Funny how Kakuana was the school that was named but the other school was not.
So knight/purgolder...Are you saying teams should ignore rule violations of other teams because you don't think this is their "business?
just got Ta thinking :o Someone out there might be Thanking The Good Lord right now that they're not a chicken farmer... :o...blackmail in cases like these can a lifetime... :)
Ok, I've been away for a week and haven't been able to keep up on all of this in it's entirety and I apologize if this answer is on here some where already.... This is just horrible for the kids who have literally put their entire life into this wonderful sport, however, I do understand the violation. My question is this; As a parent of a student athlete, I have just always assumed that the WIAA approves each team's schedules prior to the start of the season. Clearly, this is not correct, and clearly their has been a violation for a couple years. How does a school assure their schedule is in compliance? After this unfortunate mishap, do you feel the WIAA will start being more pro-active at the start of the season rather than having to be so re-active now? (Which I'm very sure was a hard call on their part)
Again, not blaming anybody here. I have just always assumed the WIAA had to approve each sports schedule prior to participating in it.
Maybe this could be a feature request submitted to track wrestling.
Event organizers categorize their event and submit to track wrestling. Every event type is mandatory.
Participants then find event and add to schedule.
Teams then finalize schedule through track.
Schedule is then automatically accepted or denied based on rules built into schedule builder.
you can't argue with the zeros and ones of a computer.
Quote from: Believe It on February 17, 2017, 07:54:44 PM
So here goes. Our AD was notified by an AD at another school in our conference that our schedule was in violation of the rules. This notification was made to us the Friday after our last dual February 3rd. Which school told us and how long they new for I am not getting into. The De Pere AD notified the Wiaa immediately afterit was brought to his attention. So self reported yes, self discovered no. We supplied the Wiaa with a spreadsheet with all our matches, dates, what events and how they were classified (jv or varsity). The wiaa worked with our AD and head coach to find a way to make us eligible for regionals that night. NO information was left off the spreadsheet, so the Wiaa's claim that they had new information is 100% false. I was not in on the call that told us we were eligible so how the wiaa interpreted that information I do not know. We were told this Wednesday February 15th that due to new information the Wiaa was ruling us ineligible as of 7:00 am the next morning. The Wiaa informed us that two member schools had informed them that we wrestled an illegal schedule (a fact that we never disputed) and they needed to review the information. Everything that happened at the appeal has been well discussed on the other De Pere thread, and most of the information is correct. Now, I myself take responsibility for the mistake. I do not do the scheduling but I have been involved in this program for 11 years now and I know better than to put my faith in individuals who do not appreciate the sport of wrestling as much as I do. I have coached most of these wrestlers since they were in grade school. I failed them. They do not deserve to be punished but that is the ruling that was given to them, and I have to live with that. We appreciate all the support we have received in the past few days. I told our kids to keep their heads up! If people feel the need to try to take you down then you have already won. Three years ago nobody would have said a word if De Pere had wrestled in 30 events, and that is a credit to the hard work these young MEN have put in to make De Pere Wrestling relevant. It will be hard for them to understand the ruling nor do I expect them too. I would ask people to only speak on this matter if you are educated on the situation, which I hope I have helped with, and not make dumb comments and then hide behind your screen name.
Thank You,
Brian Corrigan
Did the Coach/AD who brought this to the attention of the Depere AD and the ultimately the WIAA wait until Depere wrestled the additional event BEFORE bringing this to your attention? Or did they just conveniently happen to notice this immediately after you wrestled the additional event?
Good morning. There are multiple layers to this story. The truth is always somewhere in between. I know how badly everyone feels for the athletes. Athletic disciplinary action always affects kids whether they are in high school or college. I just wish to clarify and add one solution to your posts.
The WIAA does not have the manpower to approve or manage schedules. It is not their job.
Asst. Director Wade Labecki has information we are not privy to and the timing of him receiving information is known only to him.
The rules are laid out and it is up to the coaches and AD's to set appropriate schedules that follow the WIAA regulation.
The coach has the responsibility to make sure kids participate in the correct number of events, quarters, halves, periods depending on the sport. As a former coach, this was ALWAYS my responsibility. We worked with 9 duals and 5 multi which included any JV tourneys that you may schedule.
With 7 and 7 duals and multi events, double and triple duals, conference events, etc., scheduling has become slightly more confusing but manageable. If these events are exceeded, there is a consequence. If an organizational rule is broken, the team should expect to pay the penalty and it is clearly stated to all membership schools what the consequences are.
A solution: Go to a straight MATCH COUNT per individual wrestler. In our sport, it makes sense as many schools need to search out double and triple duals for travel and to obtain matches for the athletes. This would allow for each team to build a schedule that fits their number of athletes best.
Count each individual match on JV and Varsity the same. WWCA leaders, please be bold and let's all work to KEEP Wisconsin Wrestling Great.
Quote from: wraslfan on February 20, 2017, 07:29:27 AM
Quote from: Believe It on February 17, 2017, 07:54:44 PM
So here goes. Our AD was notified by an AD at another school in our conference that our schedule was in violation of the rules. This notification was made to us the Friday after our last dual February 3rd. Which school told us and how long they new for I am not getting into. The De Pere AD notified the Wiaa immediately afterit was brought to his attention. So self reported yes, self discovered no. We supplied the Wiaa with a spreadsheet with all our matches, dates, what events and how they were classified (jv or varsity). The wiaa worked with our AD and head coach to find a way to make us eligible for regionals that night. NO information was left off the spreadsheet, so the Wiaa's claim that they had new information is 100% false. I was not in on the call that told us we were eligible so how the wiaa interpreted that information I do not know. We were told this Wednesday February 15th that due to new information the Wiaa was ruling us ineligible as of 7:00 am the next morning. The Wiaa informed us that two member schools had informed them that we wrestled an illegal schedule (a fact that we never disputed) and they needed to review the information. Everything that happened at the appeal has been well discussed on the other De Pere thread, and most of the information is correct. Now, I myself take responsibility for the mistake. I do not do the scheduling but I have been involved in this program for 11 years now and I know better than to put my faith in individuals who do not appreciate the sport of wrestling as much as I do. I have coached most of these wrestlers since they were in grade school. I failed them. They do not deserve to be punished but that is the ruling that was given to them, and I have to live with that. We appreciate all the support we have received in the past few days. I told our kids to keep their heads up! If people feel the need to try to take you down then you have already won. Three years ago nobody would have said a word if De Pere had wrestled in 30 events, and that is a credit to the hard work these young MEN have put in to make De Pere Wrestling relevant. It will be hard for them to understand the ruling nor do I expect them too. I would ask people to only speak on this matter if you are educated on the situation, which I hope I have helped with, and not make dumb comments and then hide behind your screen name.
Thank You,
Brian Corrigan
Did the Coach/AD who brought this to the attention of the Depere AD and the ultimately the WIAA wait until Depere wrestled the additional event BEFORE bringing this to your attention? Or did they just conveniently happen to notice this immediately after you wrestled the additional event?
The information from other posts indicate that De Pere had extra meets/tournaments on their schedule for the past couple years. Maybe the coach/AD first noticed it this year or maybe someone brought it to their attention.
Quote from: H. Hogan on February 19, 2017, 10:52:23 PM
Quote from: Andersonman1234 on February 19, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 19, 2017, 01:57:31 PM
Maybe enough people boycott the tournament then it won't be the elite tournament that it is! And bulldog Kaukana and the other team strategically told the WIAA! And I do hope this shows people to mind their own business! Just PATHETIC!
Yeah isn't it just pathetic of kaukauna to follow the rules. But it's not pathetic that depere can't follow the rules hmm.
Kaukauna follows the rules....Ha that's fresh!
Ask some of thier former wrestlers about them following the skin fold rules! 😂😂😂😂
Skin Fold issues is a whole other thread...and unless you are willing to share solid evidence that Kaukauna has actually violated a skin fold rule this post is right up there with CNN and Fake News. Don't turn the spotlight on another team unless you have proof you want to present to the WIAA about a violation. Coming on the forum and making these kind of statements about a specific team undermines the hard work their athletes have put into the sport. With this post you are judging the Kaukauna program based on hearsay. Unless you have proof. If you do...pass it onto the WIAA.
Thanks Coach B....Maybe it's time the WIAA Looked into doing just that, sounds at tho it sure would help a lot of AD's and Coaches
Quote from: bulldog on February 20, 2017, 07:42:11 AM
Quote from: wraslfan on February 20, 2017, 07:29:27 AM
Quote from: Believe It on February 17, 2017, 07:54:44 PM
So here goes. Our AD was notified by an AD at another school in our conference that our schedule was in violation of the rules. This notification was made to us the Friday after our last dual February 3rd. Which school told us and how long they new for I am not getting into. The De Pere AD notified the Wiaa immediately afterit was brought to his attention. So self reported yes, self discovered no. We supplied the Wiaa with a spreadsheet with all our matches, dates, what events and how they were classified (jv or varsity). The wiaa worked with our AD and head coach to find a way to make us eligible for regionals that night. NO information was left off the spreadsheet, so the Wiaa's claim that they had new information is 100% false. I was not in on the call that told us we were eligible so how the wiaa interpreted that information I do not know. We were told this Wednesday February 15th that due to new information the Wiaa was ruling us ineligible as of 7:00 am the next morning. The Wiaa informed us that two member schools had informed them that we wrestled an illegal schedule (a fact that we never disputed) and they needed to review the information. Everything that happened at the appeal has been well discussed on the other De Pere thread, and most of the information is correct. Now, I myself take responsibility for the mistake. I do not do the scheduling but I have been involved in this program for 11 years now and I know better than to put my faith in individuals who do not appreciate the sport of wrestling as much as I do. I have coached most of these wrestlers since they were in grade school. I failed them. They do not deserve to be punished but that is the ruling that was given to them, and I have to live with that. We appreciate all the support we have received in the past few days. I told our kids to keep their heads up! If people feel the need to try to take you down then you have already won. Three years ago nobody would have said a word if De Pere had wrestled in 30 events, and that is a credit to the hard work these young MEN have put in to make De Pere Wrestling relevant. It will be hard for them to understand the ruling nor do I expect them too. I would ask people to only speak on this matter if you are educated on the situation, which I hope I have helped with, and not make dumb comments and then hide behind your screen name.
Thank You,
Brian Corrigan
Did the Coach/AD who brought this to the attention of the Depere AD and the ultimately the WIAA wait until Depere wrestled the additional event BEFORE bringing this to your attention? Or did they just conveniently happen to notice this immediately after you wrestled the additional event?
The information from other posts indicate that De Pere had extra meets/tournaments on their schedule for the past couple years. Maybe the coach/AD first noticed it this year or maybe someone brought it to their attention.
I saw that as well (that they may have been in violation for the last two years). Further evidence to me that it was not intentional thing for Depere. It also led to my question, why did those who reported the infraction wait until after they wrestled the meet that put them over the limit before bringing it to the attention of their AD and subsequently the WIAA? I have a hard time believing that was just coincidental.
Looks like they self reported on Feb. 3rd. They wrestled Bay Port on February 2nd. Someone likely waited till the convenient time.
Agree, since was the 2nd year with the schedule it had to be unintentional.
Total match limit is the way to go.
I think the timing is very suspicious as well. De Pere self reports on 2/2 which is 10 days before regionals. After the WIAA happens to reverse their own decision of probation they deliver the knock out to De Pere on 2/8 (or 2/9?) which puts De Pere in an almost impossible time restraint to get an injunction from a Judge delaying the discipline and assuring De Pere and its student athletes the opportunity of a more timely and objective due process. You don't think Dave Anderson and the WIAA professionals remember how they handled the Lampe situation and how he ended up competing through the state tournament?
Quote from: H. Hogan on February 19, 2017, 10:52:23 PM
Quote from: Andersonman1234 on February 19, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 19, 2017, 01:57:31 PM
Maybe enough people boycott the tournament then it won't be the elite tournament that it is! And bulldog Kaukana and the other team strategically told the WIAA! And I do hope this shows people to mind their own business! Just PATHETIC!
Yeah isn't it just pathetic of kaukauna to follow the rules. But it's not pathetic that depere can't follow the rules hmm.
Kaukauna follows the rules....Ha that's fresh!
Ask some of thier former wrestlers about them following the skin fold rules! 😂😂😂😂
Like what's an example of them breaking the skin fold I'd like for you to share. If you know this about them.
I'm in complete agreement with Dave B.
Other sports get a lot more exposure of late. BB season has been extended. Volleyball, baseball/softball and even track. But wrestling is still stuck in the 70's on competition.
The rule is still a rule, and needs to be enforced equally across the board, but...the rule needs to be changed.
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 18, 2017, 08:36:39 AM
I don't care if De Pere was wrong! Kaukauna and whatever the other school that told are PATHETIC!
[/quote]
Sigh. The "Snitches get stitches" mentality. We teach our kids to not do wrong, and to report when someone else is doing wrong, and we have adults teaching the opposite. That's a shame.
Couple of things. I found it interesting that it was said that the WIAA went to trackwrestling to check results. What if the team did not enter anything on trackwrestling?
I think a match count is a great way.
I think the WIAA should then mandate that every JV and varsity match is entered into trackwrestling within three days of the event. They could even mandate that weights are entered. Go the whole way in terms of documentation. Better for keeping track, better for transparency and better for fans.
I think the WIAA should also mandate that all scores and statistics in other sports should be entered on sport specific web sites, most would be wissports.net.
Coaches can complain they don't want this work but it should come with the job to verify fairness and just as important for fans. Easy to find someone to enter information and then coach just needs to trust that person or doublecheck it is correct.
We are at that point with expectations of technology and WIAA needs to mandate it. I am sure they would for wrestling if the coaches association backed it.
Quote from: jeast on February 20, 2017, 10:59:57 AM
I'm in complete agreement with Dave B.
Other sports get a lot more exposure of late. BB season has been extended. Volleyball, baseball/softball and even track. But wrestling is still stuck in the 70's on competition.
The rule is still a rule, and needs to be enforced equally across the board, but...the rule needs to be changed.
Rules should be enforced "fairly" not necessarily "equally" unless the infraction is 100% identical which isn't the case here and is rarely ever the case. If the WIAA has no room for discretion then we don't need "professionals" to operate the organization. They could have given an alternative disciplinary measure that did NOT include ending the seasons of the student athletes. Saying they "had to" or agreeing they "had to" is small minded thinking.....period. Could have applied numerous ways to discipline the school/program without hammering on the kids. EVERYONE involved including the WIAA said the kids had nothing to do with it. Then don't discipline the KIDS!!! Unbelievable, how we don't have consensus on this from wrestling people on this forum. How about probation? How about next year De Pere loses the ability to wrestle in 2 multi-team events? How about De Pere is not eligible to host a neutral site WIAA play-off competition for 2 years? Highly paid, educated, professional adults absolutely failed the student athletes of De Pere. There were alternatives. IMO, this is worse than their sportsmanship memo and that's saying something.
Quote from: Andersonman1234 on February 20, 2017, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: H. Hogan on February 19, 2017, 10:52:23 PM
Quote from: Andersonman1234 on February 19, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 19, 2017, 01:57:31 PM
Maybe enough people boycott the tournament then it won't be the elite tournament that it is! And bulldog Kaukana and the other team strategically told the WIAA! And I do hope this shows people to mind their own business! Just PATHETIC!
Yeah isn't it just pathetic of kaukauna to follow the rules. But it's not pathetic that depere can't follow the rules hmm.
Kaukauna follows the rules....Ha that's fresh!
Ask some of thier former wrestlers about them following the skin fold rules! 😂😂😂😂
Like what's an example of them breaking the skin fold I'd like for you to share. If you know this about them.
Still waiting H. Hogan. You posted this. Please provide an example.
Does the WIAA have to answer to anyone? I have asked this question several times, but it gets deleted or I get no answers!
Quote from: thequad on February 20, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
Does the WIAA have to answer to anyone? I have asked this question several times, but it gets deleted or I get no answers!
Only the AD's but the AD's are overwhelmed with their own schools and have no time to "fight" or organize. It is not like they have another option and say we are not joining?
As far as I know Wausau East is the first school I have seen say "screw you WIAA". They requested of the Valley Football Association conference. The WIAA said no. They said "screw you" then and we are just playing an independent schedule. Their penalty is that they can never participate in football playoffs now. There was supposed to be fallout with all their other sports but it sounds like because this was a football only conference they were then able to remain in the Wisconsin Valley conference (might have been able to join a different conferene with Merrill and Lakeland, etc.?) for other sports and I think those sports can compete in playoffs.
So now the VFA only has 15 teams for football so it has been a nightmare for teams to find that one non-conference game each year especially with a D1 conference with pretty good football.
Quote from: thequad on February 20, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
Does the WIAA have to answer to anyone? I have asked this question several times, but it gets deleted or I get no answers!
The answer is no. Like Doc said, they answer to AD's, but AD's have no other choice to turn to, so I would think they have to be
very careful with any criticism or complaints. The WIAA has absolute power over the entirety of HS athletics in WI. If you do not bow down to them, you do not compete in the state tournament series. Period. All this complaining (from me and others) will result in nothing changing...they don't have to change anything. They are a monopoly.
Does anyone know how they got to be so powerful? Does this mean that they can set a price on what it takes to join?
Quote from: wraslfan on February 20, 2017, 01:14:01 PM
Quote from: thequad on February 20, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
Does the WIAA have to answer to anyone? I have asked this question several times, but it gets deleted or I get no answers!
The answer is no. Like Doc said, they answer to AD's, but AD's have no other choice to turn to, so I would think they have to be very careful with any criticism or complaints. The WIAA has absolute power over the entirety of HS athletics in WI. If you do not bow down to them, you do not compete in the state tournament series. Period. All this complaining (from me and others) will result in nothing changing...they don't have to change anything. They are a monopoly.
There is always a choice. The WIAA is a members represented entity. If you have a complaint you should take it up with your school's administration. If someone wants to go into competition with the WIAA I say go for it. Trust me if you do you will end up the same way. Bylaws will have to be adopted followed by rules of competition and and a group of people in charge of administration of all that stuff. Someone breaks a rule it will have to be enforced and then disagreement will begin. One team in the new group finds a way around a rule..... you get my drift.
+1
Quote from: davebrandvold on February 20, 2017, 07:40:07 AM
Good morning. There are multiple layers to this story. The truth is always somewhere in between. I know how badly everyone feels for the athletes. Athletic disciplinary action always affects kids whether they are in high school or college. I just wish to clarify and add one solution to your posts.
The WIAA does not have the manpower to approve or manage schedules. It is not their job.
Asst. Director Wade Labecki has information we are not privy to and the timing of him receiving information is known only to him.
The rules are laid out and it is up to the coaches and AD's to set appropriate schedules that follow the WIAA regulation.
The coach has the responsibility to make sure kids participate in the correct number of events, quarters, halves, periods depending on the sport. As a former coach, this was ALWAYS my responsibility. We worked with 9 duals and 5 multi which included any JV tourneys that you may schedule.
With 7 and 7 duals and multi events, double and triple duals, conference events, etc., scheduling has become slightly more confusing but manageable. If these events are exceeded, there is a consequence. If an organizational rule is broken, the team should expect to pay the penalty and it is clearly stated to all membership schools what the consequences are.
A solution: Go to a straight MATCH COUNT per individual wrestler. In our sport, it makes sense as many schools need to search out double and triple duals for travel and to obtain matches for the athletes. This would allow for each team to build a schedule that fits their number of athletes best.
Count each individual match on JV and Varsity the same. WWCA leaders, please be bold and let's all work to KEEP Wisconsin Wrestling Great.
They are a monopoly likely because they are not getting rich like so many on here think (the money involved is not enough to foster any competition). Schools belong for good reason, the tournament series, common rules, expectations, care of student-athletes, etc. This and other state athletic organizations are YOU and the schools you belong to. So much more than I see on the Guillotine website I see folks going after the WIAA. I don't get it. Do you think they are siphoning money off to somewhere? I'll tell you not a chance. The WIAA and others like it are under incredible scrutiny from member schools.
Quote from: wraslfan on February 20, 2017, 01:14:01 PM
Quote from: thequad on February 20, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
Does the WIAA have to answer to anyone? I have asked this question several times, but it gets deleted or I get no answers!
The answer is no. Like Doc said, they answer to AD's, but AD's have no other choice to turn to, so I would think they have to be very careful with any criticism or complaints. The WIAA has absolute power over the entirety of HS athletics in WI. If you do not bow down to them, you do not compete in the state tournament series. Period. All this complaining (from me and others) will result in nothing changing...they don't have to change anything. They are a monopoly.
"The WIAA has absolute power over the entirety of HS athletics in WI." No, just school sponsored athletics. Just saying; in wrestling, and many other sports, the WIAA is their school sanctioned events.
Their competition are the coaches association. I don't think it would be that difficult to create a sport specific board to copy the good, get rid of the bad, and manage a sport and run a state tournament series. Imagine wrestling keeping all of its money and profits for the good of wrestling!
The WIAA does not mandate what sports or how many sports a school has to offer but it seems that if the school joins the WIAA it is for all schools.
So my question is can a school be in the WIAA for some sports and not others. That seems to be the technicality. We are no longer in the WIAA for middle school sports for many reasons. Many schools don't even offer wrestling so why can't a school be in the WIAA for every other sport but not wrestling if something else was formed?
The WIAA tries to keep the rules congruent across sports and it does not always work. Imagine a board of 25 head coaches, 5 parent reps, and 5 AD's for a 35 person board making all decisions on wrestling. Imagine if they voted on the Depere situation and there was transparency and we knew the vote was 20-15 and we knew who voted on each side?
But you are all forgetting about the Advisory Council, and the Board of Control. It is not just the Executive Office in Stevens Point. The individuals in the office are not the only ones making decisions.
Quote from: woody53 on February 20, 2017, 04:43:18 PM
But you are all forgetting about the Advisory Council, and the Board of Control. It is not just the Executive Office in Stevens Point. The individuals in the office are not the only ones making decisions.
I realize that but that is the easiest to reproduce and none of that is sport specific.
C'Mon Woody! The coaches assoication could hire you and pay you thousands of dollars to run Woody's state tournament.
I understand that the WIAA has the job nobody wants and is never going to be noticed for all their good and people only talk about them when they are upset but I think the advisory council at the very least has to be sport specific and I think it should be transparent. You cannot find who is on the Board of Control or Advisory Council very easily. The WIAA should understand that they serve the schools but also the communities, parents, and fans. They absolutely should issue a public statement on every ruling outlining the vote and what rules were broken, etc.
This incident was or should be a Lesson to all. Yes, there certainly have been some hurt Feeling in all this, and possibly a few bridges burnt i Suspect also, but in the end and bottom line is, We all reap what you sow ;) .....and it don't appear to me, that this will ? ? ? "Feud" I guess is a good word for future Reference, will end for a long, long time...Just have that Feeling. :o ..maybe it's time to simply let it go for the betterment of our sport, but then again, maybe it's Good for the sport.... Time will tell I guess, I do know one thing for sure, I'm going to be first In line to get a ticket to the next Kah / DEP Match, no matter where it is.... ;) ...
Quote from: woody53 on February 20, 2017, 05:28:01 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
C'Mon Woody! The coaches assoication could hire you and pay you thousands of dollars to run Woody's state tournament.
No different then the thousands of Dollars you are paid for Doc's OTW. Low Blow !
I think you took it wrong from my point. My point is that you likely get a pittance for all the time and work you put in and I know you are fine with that and very few appreciate fully your work, time, and effort. I was making a joke that a new system might have it become a lucrative endeavor. I know that is not what you are about. I have to imagine the wrestling state tournament series is one of the more profitable tourneys for the WIAA and I assume that much of that money is spent to offset other costs and losses at other tournaments. Thus, if it was wrestling only, a lot of money could stay in wrestling.
I run the Marty Loy and I get a whopping $0 as it should be.
Sometimes whether it is with laws, organizations, corporate monopolies, taxes, etc I wish we could just hit the reset button and start over with some common sense and make things clearer. All we do now is add and add rules that complicate old ones and add precedents that complicate old ones.
Please don't think I was ripping on you Woody!. I am not always fond of the WIAA but I am very fond of everything you are and stand for and that is with never meeting you but hearing from many.
Quote from: bigG on February 20, 2017, 03:49:56 PM
"The WIAA has absolute power over the entirety of HS athletics in WI." No, just school sponsored athletics. Just saying; in wrestling, and many other sports, the WIAA is their school sanctioned events.
...does the WIAA allow student athletes to participate in "club" tournaments during the WIAA season? The WIAA is the
only school sanctioning body there is? I get they serve a purpose, and there has to be rules, but I can't for the life of me see how an infraction by their coach / AD can result in punishment of the student athletes. There is no way a group of impartial adults would have kept those kids from competing for a mistake they had NOTHING to do with. If they were caught drinking, or had failing grades, or some other infraction that they were directly responsible for, I'd have a completely different opinion on the ruling. The punishment in this scenario should have been on the coach / AD IMO.
Quote from: davebrandvold on February 20, 2017, 07:40:07 AM
Good morning. There are multiple layers to this story. The truth is always somewhere in between. I know how badly everyone feels for the athletes. Athletic disciplinary action always affects kids whether they are in high school or college. I just wish to clarify and add one solution to your posts.
The WIAA does not have the manpower to approve or manage schedules. It is not their job.
Asst. Director Wade Labecki has information we are not privy to and the timing of him receiving information is known only to him.
The rules are laid out and it is up to the coaches and AD's to set appropriate schedules that follow the WIAA regulation.
The coach has the responsibility to make sure kids participate in the correct number of events, quarters, halves, periods depending on the sport. As a former coach, this was ALWAYS my responsibility. We worked with 9 duals and 5 multi which included any JV tourneys that you may schedule.
With 7 and 7 duals and multi events, double and triple duals, conference events, etc., scheduling has become slightly more confusing but manageable. If these events are exceeded, there is a consequence. If an organizational rule is broken, the team should expect to pay the penalty and it is clearly stated to all membership schools what the consequences are.
A solution: Go to a straight MATCH COUNT per individual wrestler. In our sport, it makes sense as many schools need to search out double and triple duals for travel and to obtain matches for the athletes. This would allow for each team to build a schedule that fits their number of athletes best.
Count each individual match on JV and Varsity the same. WWCA leaders, please be bold and let's all work to KEEP Wisconsin Wrestling Great.
nice post and I am behind the match count also. I also believe if you think more into a match count I personally believe it includes JV more and devolpes those young wrestlers under the guidence of the coach also.
I want to ask this Mr Brandvold,,,,,,I full heartly agree with what you posted on this. Though I ask, why in the world would the WIAA rule on this before regionals and then revisit it after regionals. I think from what I understand and many do also it seems there is a tad bit of double jeopardy in this case, well at least in my eyes.
Woody does a great job running the state tournament. He should get paid pretty well for what he does. Dave Anderson should stay home and out of the way and let wrestling people run wrestling.
Quote from: Brett Favre on February 20, 2017, 11:12:30 PM
Woody does a great job running the state tournament. He should get paid pretty well for what he does. Dave Anderson should stay home and out of the way and let wrestling people run wrestling.
That was really my point
According to H. Hogan Kaukauna cheats in skin folds. Still waiting for his evidence. I have no inside info. but, from this distance, KK has run a clean program. That, and it ticks me off when people just throw crap to see if it sticks. Please prove it ain't crap, Hulkster; or, admit you've been to the rumor mill one to many times.
H. Hogan, where did you go? If you wanna go down the road of making accusations, back up your big mouth with proof. Kaukauna is a class act on and off the mats. Period.
I am in no way trying to disagree with woody. I just think that the public should know more about why and how the board of control makes their decisions. By the way I think woody is way under paid for all he does, especially when you compare it to the salary of the board of control gets paid.
There are the rules and there is sportsmanship. The past two issues I have seen that have eliminated athletes from competition are for violating obvious rules, but to say both were handled with sportsmanship is questionable. A different story would have been written if someone had notified the school or the kid with the multi-colored underwear before they reached the point of no return. Maybe that was impossible on both counts. Very possible. But I'm of the opinion that people want a fair competition to decide the outcome not a technicality. What is being taught is a good question. When you go out on the mat you go out on your own. Sure you have the years of practice partners and you have the encouragement and tutelage of your coach, but who wants to win because you found a technicality to disqualify your opponent? Maybe I'm all wrong, and maybe I should think better of others, but I'm starting to question what true sportsmanship is all about. Allowing your opponent to cross a line and then appeal their success is not sporting. Maybe this didn't happen in this instance. What I hope doesn't happen is people think this is one part of the arsenal to add to the team. It isn't. If you see an opponent about to commit a violation, tell them before it is too late. I would like to think that the wrestling community has each others backs.
Quote from: MarkK on February 21, 2017, 01:57:07 PM
There are the rules and there is sportsmanship. The past two issues I have seen that have eliminated athletes from competition are for violating obvious rules, but to say both were handled with sportsmanship is questionable. A different story would have been written if someone had notified the school or the kid with the multi-colored underwear before they reached the point of no return. Maybe that was impossible on both counts. Very possible. But I'm of the opinion that people want a fair competition to decide the outcome not a technicality. What is being taught is a good question. When you go out on the mat you go out on your own. Sure you have the years of practice partners and you have the encouragement and tutelage of your coach, but who wants to win because you found a technicality to disqualify your opponent? Maybe I'm all wrong, and maybe I should think better of others, but I'm starting to question what true sportsmanship is all about. Allowing your opponent to cross a line and then appeal their success is not sporting. Maybe this didn't happen in this instance. What I hope doesn't happen is people think this is one part of the arsenal to add to the team. It isn't. If you see an opponent about to commit a violation, tell them before it is too late. I would like to think that the wrestling community has each others backs.
Look at the world we live in and all your questions are answered, it is a sad reality :(
I agree, it is the way of the world these days. I am a rules guy. Always have been. I have always payed close attention to the rules as they have changed. You can use that knowledge to your advantage. Now some may say that is low down and dirty but I say as a coach that is my job. My kids always hit the mat properly attired and ready to wrestle. We made sure they were aware of new rule changes each year. Are some rules dumb? Maybe but no less a rule. What I have observed as you say the world we live in now too many people think they can pick and choose which rules are good ones and will follow and which ones are dumb and don't have to until they are "caught" then plead ignorance and complain. Then when the rule is enforced we have victims. There is only one way to avoid having victims..........
I very seldom post anything but felt compelled to voice my input on this. I like most everyone on the thread and the major majority of the public feel that the WIAA board of control got this situation wrong. There is the letter of the law (rules) and there is the spirit of the law. It is obvious the rule was unintentionally violated by Depere. We can point the finger at anyone we want, but at the end of the day a determination was made & then changed that made the whole scenario worse for all that were involved! It's a shame that there was no room for any mercy with the law (WIAA rule) based on the Depere schedule. I don't know if there are some circumstances that have not come to light that would cause myself and others to feel different about the vote, but just being honest, it sucks and was the wrong vote! The WIAA board of control has earned a reputation on this situation of being heartless. What I would like to know and see posted is the names of the members of the board of control who voted and what their vote was. I've been told that there were only 7 that voted and the count was 5-2 that ended the season for the Depere wrestlers and their supporters. I believe everyone has the right to know this information and then do what is necessary to vote in people in the future who can demonstrate the ability to separate the letter of the law from the spirit of the law!
The situation is unfortunate; downright tragic for the kids being affected. I do think it's important that rules are enforced, if we really believe in the connection between athletics and character development, though. One thing that needs to be considered is the reason for the rule that was violated. While we tend to see it as an attempt to stop teams from gaining unfair advantage, perhaps that is an errant assumption. I suspect that the rule's justification is the desire to limit the potential wear and tear on students' bodies, which is reportedly why other states limit the number of individual matches. If that suspicion is accurate, then we are talking about protecting students' health... as is the case with banned training methods, such as using rubber suits to lose weight. Would such a change of focus affect how we look at this situation? Should it? Is there an alternative punishment that would impact the responsible adults, rather than the wrestlers who bore no responsibility for this? Recommendations, anyone?
You do know that this went before a Judge, right. And he decided the out come. The WIAA followed the rules.
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:03:59 PM
You do know that this went before a Judge, right. And he decided the out come. The WIAA followed the rules.
Please explain???? So an actual hearing was given and presented by both sides or did a judge just rule against an injunction?
Don't know what you are getting at Aaron, Both sides were allowed to present themselves to a Judge last week. After all evidence was displayed. It was determined, by the Judge, that the WIAA followed the rules. At that point the representatives for the ones asking for the injunction decided to not pursue it any farther. That does not preclude that individuals involved from taking it farther if they choose.
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:57:35 PM
Don't know what you are getting at Aaron, Both sides were allowed to present themselves to a Judge last week. After all evidence was displayed. It was determined, by the Judge, that the WIAA followed the rules. At that point the representatives for the ones asking for the injunction decided to not pursue it any farther. That does not preclude that individuals involved from taking it farther if they choose.
That had to have happened awful quickly. I know they were trying to get an injunction Friday after the appeal decision and then heard they didn't get one a few hours later.
The WIAA left little time from their first declaration they couldn't wrestle and continued with another Friday morning appeal which left almost no time on the clock.
Just a question Woody...I get the rule was broken...but do you feel there was coincidence that it was reported the morning after the final dual. While it wasn't an infraction on number of duals do you believe it is possible someone caught it and didn't report it until it was too late to do anything?
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:57:35 PM
Don't know what you are getting at Aaron, Both sides were allowed to present themselves to a Judge last week. After all evidence was displayed. It was determined, by the Judge, that the WIAA followed the rules. At that point the representatives for the ones asking for the injunction decided to not pursue it any farther. That does not preclude that individuals involved from taking it farther if they choose.
I'm just trying to understand this hearing....what was actually asked for, presented, decided and why? Where did you find this information at?
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
Quote from: aarons23 on February 22, 2017, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:57:35 PM
Don't know what you are getting at Aaron, Both sides were allowed to present themselves to a Judge last week. After all evidence was displayed. It was determined, by the Judge, that the WIAA followed the rules. At that point the representatives for the ones asking for the injunction decided to not pursue it any farther. That does not preclude that individuals involved from taking it farther if they choose.
I'm just trying to understand this hearing....what was actually asked for, presented, decided and why? Where did you find this information at?
I was part of a discussion with the WIAA today for the State Tournament
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:03:59 PM
You do know that this went before a Judge, right. And he decided the out come. The WIAA followed the rules.
It's unfortunate that it ever came to that!
What would have been the right thing - would have been the school in the area that took notice of the error would have told De Pere staff of the mistake they were about to make so the infraction would never have happened and the wrestlers would not be paying the price for the coach and AD's mistake.
The worst part of the WIAA's handling of this decision is they allowed De Pere to wrestle at regionals. They had all the information in Wade Labecki's office to make the current decision. They did not get new information the week of sectionals. They were just told by Kaukauna coaches how to interpret (where to look on Track Wrestling) the info they had at their fingertips. Debatable in the future is whether this is a good rule or not (meets/tourneys vs. total individual matches).
I strongly feel once the initial decision was made, that should have been the end of it. Wade Labecki's comments should have been ... "I made a decision before regionals, I was wrong, but I have to stand by the decision made".
De Pere students shouldn't have been pulled out of the tournament once they competed at Regionals because someone at the WIAA didn't know how to do their job. (Referees make mistakes ... do they go back and correct them after a match is complete). This not only affected De Pere kids, but I know of one kid that would likely be at Madison right now. Evan Frisque would have stayed at 160 if he knew Trevor Turriff was not in regionals. He cuts to 152 and then doesn't qualify ... so not only the did mishandling of this decision (even if they got the decision right) wrongly affect De Pere kids, it affected kids from other schools as well.
Shame on the WIAA.
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:15:05 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on February 22, 2017, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:57:35 PM
Don't know what you are getting at Aaron, Both sides were allowed to present themselves to a Judge last week. After all evidence was displayed. It was determined, by the Judge, that the WIAA followed the rules. At that point the representatives for the ones asking for the injunction decided to not pursue it any farther. That does not preclude that individuals involved from taking it farther if they choose.
I'm just trying to understand this hearing....what was actually asked for, presented, decided and why? Where did you find this information at?
I was part of a discussion with the WIAA today for the State Tournament
And you offer as much detail as the WIAA does. ::)
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 22, 2017, 06:33:22 PM
The worst part of the WIAA's handling of this decision is they allowed De Pere to wrestle at regionals. They had all the information in Wade Labecki's office to make the current decision. They did not get new information the week of sectionals. They were just told by Kaukauna coaches how to interpret (where to look on Track Wrestling) the info they had at their fingertips. Debatable in the future is whether this is a good rule or not (meets/tourneys vs. total individual matches).
I strongly feel once the initial decision was made, that should have been the end of it. Wade Labecki's comments should have been ... "I made a decision before regionals, I was wrong, but I have to stand by the decision made".
De Pere students shouldn't have been pulled out of the tournament once they competed at Regionals because someone at the WIAA didn't know how to do their job. (Referees make mistakes ... do they go back and correct them after a match is complete). This not only affected De Pere kids, but I know of one kid that would likely be at Madison right now. Evan Frisque would have stayed at 160 if he knew Trevor Turriff was not in regionals. He cuts to 152 and then doesn't qualify ... so not only the did mishandling of this decision (even if they got the decision right) wrongly affect De Pere kids, it affected kids from other schools as well.
Shame on the WIAA.
+1
Yes, as a sign of good sportmanship, the school (Pulaski) that informed De Pere they were out of compliance, could have easily informed De Pere any time prior to the morning after their last dual. However ... they chose not to do the right thing. Helped them get a 106 pounder to state ... so they are probably proud of themselves.
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 22, 2017, 06:38:40 PM
Yes, as a sign of good sportmanship, the school (Pulaski) that informed De Pere they were out of compliance, could have easily informed De Pere any time prior to the morning after their last dual. However ... they chose not to do the right thing. Helped them get a 106 pounder to state ... so they are probably proud of themselves.
Well from your last post to this one. You blame the WIAA first, then you blame a school for reporting. Which is it?
Full Nelson. Where did you get Labecki's quote?
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
In the real world, people don't have their careers ended, or get fired for working 6 or 12 minutes of overtime that they self report. (That is a perfect real world equivalent of this infraction) So yes, I would have voted to allow the kids to wrestle and proudly stood behind my decision and defended it to whoever I had to answer to. (Which for the WIAA is no one) How anyone can defend this decision is beyond me, but to each his own.
Woody,
I blame De Pere for being in non compliance.
I blame another school for waiting until after the last dual meet to inform De Pere of their non compliance.
I blame the WIAA for the process they followed in making 2 rulings (one before regionals and one 2 days before sectionals).
I blame another school for not accepting the WIAA's initial ruling and calling other schools to round up support, to go back to the WIAA, to encourage them to reverse the initial decision.
As I see it, adults screwed up 4 times (logistically, procedurally, and 2x ethically) and the kids (who made no mistakes) are affected the most.
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:41:47 PM
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 22, 2017, 06:38:40 PM
Yes, as a sign of good sportmanship, the school (Pulaski) that informed De Pere they were out of compliance, could have easily informed De Pere any time prior to the morning after their last dual. However ... they chose not to do the right thing. Helped them get a 106 pounder to state ... so they are probably proud of themselves.
Well from your last post to this one. You blame the WIAA first, then you blame a school for reporting. Which is it?
Both are to blame, one for reporting it when they did, one for completely mishandling and completely over reacting.
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 22, 2017, 06:53:59 PM
Woody,
I blame De Pere for being in non compliance.
I blame another school for waiting until after the last dual meet to inform De Pere of their non compliance.
I blame the WIAA for the process they followed in making 2 rulings (one before regionals and one 2 days before sectionals).
Adults screwed up 3 times and the kids (who made no mistakes) are affected the most.
I can only comment on the third point. If not all the information is confirmed before an event. The athlete is allowed to complete. What did the WIAA do wrong?
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 07:00:51 PM
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 22, 2017, 06:53:59 PM
Woody,
I blame De Pere for being in non compliance.
I blame another school for waiting until after the last dual meet to inform De Pere of their non compliance.
I blame the WIAA for the process they followed in making 2 rulings (one before regionals and one 2 days before sectionals).
Adults screwed up 3 times and the kids (who made no mistakes) are affected the most.
I can only comment on the third point. If not all the information is confirmed before an event. The athlete is allowed to complete. What did the WIAA do wrong?
Also...wouldn't this be an important enough decision that board members would actually attend the appeal? Much easier not to look into the faces of the real "victims" and do it over the phone I guess.
What info were they missing Woody?
And did they find out the new info Wednesday because if I'm right De Pere was notified Wednesday night or Thursday? It's cut and dry.
Also...how important of a decision must there be to have the board members actually attend the meeting for the appeal. Much easier to do it over the phone I guess than look the real "victims" in the face.
This is why I wonder about the whole court preceding...guessing the board wasn't there as they weren't at the appeal. Guessing a couple lawyers for a few minutes?
Pretty easy to see a school(s) waited until they finished their schedule to fill their own agenda. Of course they went over the limit...but pretty shady when you know it and don't show them their mistake for what? A kid getting to state that may never really feel they deserved it?
Woody,
You and I can just agree to disagree. Have fun at the tourney.
:-X......go south young man, south !... ;)
Quote from: wraslfan on February 22, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
In the real world, people don't have their careers ended, or get fired for working 6 or 12 minutes of overtime that they self report. (That is a perfect real world equivalent of this infraction) So yes, I would have voted to allow the kids to wrestle and proudly stood behind my decision and defended it to whoever I had to answer to. (Which for the WIAA is no one) How anyone can defend this decision is beyond me, but to each his own.
In a union shop people are disciplined for working before or after scheduled times, and that is fact, self reported or not
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 22, 2017, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: wraslfan on February 22, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
In the real world, people don't have their careers ended, or get fired for working 6 or 12 minutes of overtime that they self report. (That is a perfect real world equivalent of this infraction) So yes, I would have voted to allow the kids to wrestle and proudly stood behind my decision and defended it to whoever I had to answer to. (Which for the WIAA is no one) How anyone can defend this decision is beyond me, but to each his own.
In a union shop people are disciplined for working before or after scheduled times, and that is fact, self reported or not
And in the "real world" people do lose there jobs for breaking the rules. sad to say there are times in the "real world" people lose their jobs when others break the rules...
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 22, 2017, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: wraslfan on February 22, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
In the real world, people don't have their careers ended, or get fired for working 6 or 12 minutes of overtime that they self report. (That is a perfect real world equivalent of this infraction) So yes, I would have voted to allow the kids to wrestle and proudly stood behind my decision and defended it to whoever I had to answer to. (Which for the WIAA is no one) How anyone can defend this decision is beyond me, but to each his own.
In a union shop people are disciplined for working before or after scheduled times, and that is fact, self reported or not
Well, that is not surprising, but if their career was ended or they were fired over that, why be in a union? That would not be the discipline in any company I've ever worked for unless you had a long list of other issues. So you agree with the WIAA not letting these kids wrestle due to a mistake by their coach and AD?
Quote from: bulldog on February 22, 2017, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 22, 2017, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: wraslfan on February 22, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
In the real world, people don't have their careers ended, or get fired for working 6 or 12 minutes of overtime that they self report. (That is a perfect real world equivalent of this infraction) So yes, I would have voted to allow the kids to wrestle and proudly stood behind my decision and defended it to whoever I had to answer to. (Which for the WIAA is no one) How anyone can defend this decision is beyond me, but to each his own.
In a union shop people are disciplined for working before or after scheduled times, and that is fact, self reported or not
And in the "real world" people do lose there jobs for breaking the rules. sad to say there are times in the "real world" people lose their jobs when others break the rules...
No kidding! You have to use some perspective. They do not get fired for working an additional 6 minutes unless they have a long list of other things they've done wrong. I'll ask you as well, do you think these kids should have had their season and in some cases their career ended over a decision their coach made? If you do, we'll have to disagree on that then.
NO I never said I agreed with the decision at all, Cannot imagine being in the middle of that mess.
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:03:59 PM
You do know that this went before a Judge, right. And he decided the out come. The WIAA followed the rules.
The wiaa had an opportunity to make a decision to not discipline innocent kids BEFORE it went to a judge. The wiaa was the last thing standing to protect the kids that literally everyone agrees was not responsible for the infraction.
That being said, woody I respect you for your commitment to the state wrestling tournament. The best state tournament in Wisconsin in my opinion. Obviously, I disagree with your position that the wiaa had no other option than ending the season for 10 de pere student athletes but you're a stand up guy and you continue to represent yourself on the forum. A very sincere "thank you" for volunteering to make this weekend great for the athletes and the fans.
Best of luck wrestlers!!! I'm able to attend tomorrow nights session. As a d3 guy it will be my first Thursday night. In the words of Bart Scott......"can't wait!!!!".
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 22, 2017, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: wraslfan on February 22, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: Army Ant on February 22, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
The rules are the rules and they generally include protocol for enforcement. Maybe this is an opportunity to change how those rules are enforced but I have a feeling that some of the people that are criticizing the WIAA for enforcing the rules would do the exact same thing the WIAA did if their jobs were actually on the line.
As people do on here, +1
In the real world, people don't have their careers ended, or get fired for working 6 or 12 minutes of overtime that they self report. (That is a perfect real world equivalent of this infraction) So yes, I would have voted to allow the kids to wrestle and proudly stood behind my decision and defended it to whoever I had to answer to. (Which for the WIAA is no one) How anyone can defend this decision is beyond me, but to each his own.
In a union shop people are disciplined for working before or after scheduled times, and that is fact, self reported or not
I work in a union environment and our bosses praise the heck out of people for their 10-20 hours OT every week. I also set up apprenticeships with unionized construction companies. Overtime is a big deal to those folks.
I don't know what the right move would be for De Pere, but, as a jailer, I tall people who've made mistakes all the time that if they didn't follow the law, it's on them. That said, these are HS young men and (potentially)women. Just boot the coach's matside privs. for state and be done. I tend to be softer on kids, though. :)
Not sure if the WIAA made the right decision or not, but a line does have to be drawn at some point about following the rules.
The issue I can't wrap my head around is that if another program knew the DePere schedule was in potential violation before the violation happened, why did they not pick up the phone and make a call to DePere? Instead of waiting to try and catch them in a violation. If this did happen it is just bad form, I would like to think that at this level programs would be willing to help each other out to avoid potential land mines and move wrestling forward in Wisconsin.
I do not think it is good practice to rely on help from others but technicalities like this can easily be prevented if programs inform each other of potential violations before they happen.
Quote from: Micah on February 23, 2017, 07:38:03 AM
Not sure if the WIAA made the right decision or not, but a line does have to be drawn at some point about following the rules.
The issue I can't wrap my head around is that if another program knew the DePere schedule was in potential violation before the violation happened, why did they not pick up the phone and make a call to DePere? Instead of waiting to try and catch them in a violation. If this did happen it is just bad form, I would like to think that at this level programs would be willing to help each other out to avoid potential land mines and move wrestling forward in Wisconsin.
I do not think it is good practice to rely on help from others but technicalities like this can easily be prevented if programs inform each other of potential violations before they happen.
What if De Pere has been wrestling the same schedule for multiple years (which was an illegal schedule) and said school notified them previously and then the next year when they continued to wrestle the illegal schedule notified them when they did. Does that change your thinking?
I have to think, given the range of responses to this that there would be no ruling the WIAA, or any judge, could have made to make everyone happy (just like our court systems in the real world). Whether I agree with the ruling or not, I have to respect the authority that made it. Without a governing body like the WIAA, I can't imagine the spit-show that may have ensued.
Good find Getyourpoints. I guess you can say they follow their mission statement.
Quote from: roughandtough on February 23, 2017, 07:48:20 AM
Quote from: Micah on February 23, 2017, 07:38:03 AM
Not sure if the WIAA made the right decision or not, but a line does have to be drawn at some point about following the rules.
The issue I can't wrap my head around is that if another program knew the DePere schedule was in potential violation before the violation happened, why did they not pick up the phone and make a call to DePere? Instead of waiting to try and catch them in a violation. If this did happen it is just bad form, I would like to think that at this level programs would be willing to help each other out to avoid potential land mines and move wrestling forward in Wisconsin.
I do not think it is good practice to rely on help from others but technicalities like this can easily be prevented if programs inform each other of potential violations before they happen.
What if De Pere has been wrestling the same schedule for multiple years (which was an illegal schedule) and said school notified them previously and then the next year when they continued to wrestle the illegal schedule notified them when they did. Does that change your thinking?
Of course, one notification would suffice and if changes aren't made that school deserves any punishment from the WIAA.
Quote from: Napoleon Dynamite on February 23, 2017, 11:44:00 AM
http://wbay.com/2017/02/22/disqualified-wrestler-turriff-remains-postive/
Thanks for sharing, great attitude from that kid. Unfortunately, it makes the WIAA's moronic decision infuriate me even more.
Theyy should be so proud of themselves for denying that team the chance to wrestle, it really shows how "equal" they made things. They really showed "control." They didn't let any "special interest groups"...(except the two schools who waited until they were over the limit and then reported) exploit these athletes ::)
Quote from: Napoleon Dynamite on February 23, 2017, 11:44:00 AM
http://wbay.com/2017/02/22/disqualified-wrestler-turriff-remains-postive/
If anyone knows this kid, have him PM me. I'll buy him dinner, snacks and whatever else he wants this weekend. I'll even give him my front row seat. That's the most rational thing I have read on these boards in months.
""I am who I am today, and they can't take that away," Turriff said."
Quote from: Barou on February 22, 2017, 09:32:05 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 22, 2017, 05:03:59 PM
You do know that this went before a Judge, right. And he decided the out come. The WIAA followed the rules.
The wiaa had an opportunity to make a decision to not discipline innocent kids BEFORE it went to a judge. The wiaa was the last thing standing to protect the kids that literally everyone agrees was not responsible for the infraction.
I couldn't agree more with you Barou, this isn't about the vote of a judge on an obvious rule violation, it's about the hard line stand the WIAA board took to show no mercy to the 10 Depere wrestlers that had their season come to an abrupt end!
What I still have not seen posted is the names of the 7 board members who voted 5-2 to reverse the initial WIAA decision that allowed Depere to wrestle in the Regional's. I believe the public has a right to know who voted and how they voted. Can anyone in the know post out the names? This is the way it works in the real world of government, the vote is public information & if the majority of people don't like the way someone votes they voice their opinion by voting someone else in! Let's not let this go unchallenged, we can't go back and get the Depere kids to wrestle but we can show our support for them by helping to make sure that something like this does not happen in the future!
Seems to me some mistakes were made. I seen Depere kids and fans at state before. I know theyre good kids. Remember what the Bible says about forgiveness: it says you should forgive. Seems they needed to let the kids play. This is sad for all them and there town and there coach and there school. I dont like this at all.
Quote from: Micah on February 23, 2017, 12:01:13 PM
Quote from: roughandtough on February 23, 2017, 07:48:20 AM
Quote from: Micah on February 23, 2017, 07:38:03 AM
Not sure if the WIAA made the right decision or not, but a line does have to be drawn at some point about following the rules.
The issue I can't wrap my head around is that if another program knew the DePere schedule was in potential violation before the violation happened, why did they not pick up the phone and make a call to DePere? Instead of waiting to try and catch them in a violation. If this did happen it is just bad form, I would like to think that at this level programs would be willing to help each other out to avoid potential land mines and move wrestling forward in Wisconsin.
I do not think it is good practice to rely on help from others but technicalities like this can easily be prevented if programs inform each other of potential violations before they happen.
What if De Pere has been wrestling the same schedule for multiple years (which was an illegal schedule) and said school notified them previously and then the next year when they continued to wrestle the illegal schedule notified them when they did. Does that change your thinking?
Of course, one notification would suffice and if changes aren't made that school deserves any punishment from the WIAA.
I think the previous 8 pages and the other thread need to focus on roughandtough's one post. Was DePere notified prior and wrestled anyway? Maybe some clarification roughandtough? Do you have some info some us are not privy to? If so, it would clear up a lot of this confusion as to where and when first notification was made.
From what I know they werent notified so by saying they were notified and that the coach wrestled anyways is not true and your post should be deleted, from what I know.
Quote from: RedDawn1966 on February 23, 2017, 02:43:20 PM
From what I know they werent notified so by saying they were notified and that the coach wrestled anyways is not true and your post should be deleted, from what I know.
I was referring to roughantough's one post. He seems to know more than he is letting on. Or maybe he knows exactly what he is saying. What do you know? and who from? I don't know anything. That's what question marks mean. :) Roughandtough seems to think they did know, in which case your post is not true. Maybe your post should be deleted. :) Obviously, someone knows. Someone always knows and they usually don't come on the forum if they do. Speculate away.
Quote from: yaknowwhatimean? on February 23, 2017, 03:05:55 PM
Quote from: RedDawn1966 on February 23, 2017, 02:43:20 PM
From what I know they werent notified so by saying they were notified and that the coach wrestled anyways is not true and your post should be deleted, from what I know.
I was referring to roughantough's one post. I would also like to know what he was hinting at. He seems to know more than he is letting on.
Well from what I know its a mess and people from up at the state came down hard on em. I want to know what ur hinting at about what hes hinting at cuz we all should know there should be no secrets here cuz once the stats involved we all should have the right to know. we ALL pay taxes so we have the right to know the TRUTH.
Here is essentially a "rules are rules" explanation from Wade Labecki. ::)
http://s200.trackwrestling.com/tw/PortalPlayer.jsp?TIM=1487896061411&twSessionId=gjrvonutbfnfshq&videoId=362681076
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 23, 2017, 09:33:55 AM
I try to read almost every post on this forum, high school and college. One of the posts was talking about merging regionals, because of lack of wrestlers per weight. There is lack of interest in joining this sport for several reasons. I think the number 1 reason is that it is the hardest and scariest sport there is! This stuff that Kaukana and Pulaski affiliated people did will definitely affect current and future participants! I get so mad at the thought of spineless ghosts and red raiders ruining kids and families lives! All the years, accomplishments, time, and memories treated like they didn't mean anything! I can't stand the WIAA for this and I really can't stand USA wrestling either! Too many people making things more complicated then it should be! Wrestling needs to have an independent league and let WIAA die! Much love De Pere!
I wish I would never have gotten my kid into wrestling, I wish I would never gotten him into anything WIAA, I wish I would have gotten him in Motorcross like I had originally planned.
Quote from: Nobody on February 24, 2017, 07:40:29 AM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 23, 2017, 09:33:55 AM
I try to read almost every post on this forum, high school and college. One of the posts was talking about merging regionals, because of lack of wrestlers per weight. There is lack of interest in joining this sport for several reasons. I think the number 1 reason is that it is the hardest and scariest sport there is! This stuff that Kaukana and Pulaski affiliated people did will definitely affect current and future participants! I get so mad at the thought of spineless ghosts and red raiders ruining kids and families lives! All the years, accomplishments, time, and memories treated like they didn't mean anything! I can't stand the WIAA for this and I really can't stand USA wrestling either! Too many people making things more complicated then it should be! Wrestling needs to have an independent league and let WIAA die! Much love De Pere!
I wish I would never have gotten my kid into wrestling, I wish I would never gotten him into anything WIAA, I wish I would have gotten him in Motorcross like I had originally planned.
Really? No benefits from all of the hard work and positive experiences over the years?
Quote from: Nobody on February 24, 2017, 07:40:29 AM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 23, 2017, 09:33:55 AM
I try to read almost every post on this forum, high school and college. One of the posts was talking about merging regionals, because of lack of wrestlers per weight. There is lack of interest in joining this sport for several reasons. I think the number 1 reason is that it is the hardest and scariest sport there is! This stuff that Kaukana and Pulaski affiliated people did will definitely affect current and future participants! I get so mad at the thought of spineless ghosts and red raiders ruining kids and families lives! All the years, accomplishments, time, and memories treated like they didn't mean anything! I can't stand the WIAA for this and I really can't stand USA wrestling either! Too many people making things more complicated then it should be! Wrestling needs to have an independent league and let WIAA die! Much love De Pere!
I wish I would never have gotten my kid into wrestling, I wish I would never gotten him into anything WIAA, I wish I would have gotten him in Motorcross like I had originally planned.
OMG, I hope your experience wasn't that bad. Motocross, really?
Quote from: imnofish on February 25, 2017, 09:33:29 AM
Really? No benefits from all of the hard work and positive experiences over the years?
In time the experience of wrestling will help all the Depere wrestlers in other aspects of their lives. They'll remember and appreciate the hard work and dedication they put in and apply that to their careers, their personal lives etc...
They will also never forget the crushing decision by an inept organization, claiming to be there to look out for their best interests, and remember how that organization took all that they had worked for away from them. Ended their careers over a minor infraction made by other adults...they will realize that decision was made because it was the easy way out for the WIAA. That they hid behind a rule book instead of doing what was right. They completely ignored the motives of the other teams who reported the infraction. The WIAA made a decision completely contrary to all that the sport of wrestling stands for. I hope they use this experience in a positive way and learn how NOT to handle things as adults. I hope they realize that this is what happens with unchecked power, no competition, and no recourse. I hope they realize that just saying "I feel terrible about it" is not an excuse, not a good enough response for failing to do the right thing.
Quote from: bigG on February 25, 2017, 10:28:13 AM
Quote from: Nobody on February 24, 2017, 07:40:29 AM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 23, 2017, 09:33:55 AM
I try to read almost every post on this forum, high school and college. One of the posts was talking about merging regionals, because of lack of wrestlers per weight. There is lack of interest in joining this sport for several reasons. I think the number 1 reason is that it is the hardest and scariest sport there is! This stuff that Kaukana and Pulaski affiliated people did will definitely affect current and future participants! I get so mad at the thought of spineless ghosts and red raiders ruining kids and families lives! All the years, accomplishments, time, and memories treated like they didn't mean anything! I can't stand the WIAA for this and I really can't stand USA wrestling either! Too many people making things more complicated then it should be! Wrestling needs to have an independent league and let WIAA die! Much love De Pere!
I wish I would never have gotten my kid into wrestling, I wish I would never gotten him into anything WIAA, I wish I would have gotten him in Motorcross like I had originally planned.
OMG, I hope your experience wasn't that bad. Motocross, really?
What's wrong with Motocross BigG? The two greatest sports in the world are MX and Wrestling! Just ask me...I'll tell you! ;)
Tongue in cheek, man. I did have some MX kids a few years ago who came in with a broken _______, every few weeks. I had to have a serious career discussion with one who didn't understand why him spending more on it than he made made for a poor choice for a financially viable career. I went to watch them at Aztalan. What a great time.
Quote from: wraslfan on February 25, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
They will also never forget the crushing decision by an inept organization, claiming to be there to look out for their best interests, and remember how that organization took all that they had worked for away from them. Ended their careers over a minor infraction made by other adults...they will realize that decision was made because it was the easy way out for the WIAA. That they hid behind a rule book instead of doing what was right. They completely ignored the motives of the other teams who reported the infraction. The WIAA made a decision completely contrary to all that the sport of wrestling stands for. I hope they use this experience in a positive way and learn how NOT to handle things as adults. I hope they realize that this is what happens with unchecked power, no competition, and no recourse. I hope they realize that just saying "I feel terrible about it" is not an excuse, not a good enough response for failing to do the right thing.
Not that I don't lament the WIAA decision as well (if there weren't the time crunch involved with making a decision, I like to think they would have come up with a better solution), but let's be clear, the motives of those reporting does not impact the character of the infraction in any way - it is what it is and those reporting didn't make the mistake. Also, the WIAA is not there to protect the interests of the DePere wrestlers - it is there to protect the interests of its
entire membership - which extends far beyond just the DePere wrestlers. And part of protecting the interests of the entire membership is enforcing the rules as written. The rules are established in advance, ratified by the membership, all membership should expect to be held accountable to those rules. That's just the way organizational structures are supposed to work. The WIAA had a balancing act to pull off under some serious time constraints and I for one, don't envy the conundrum they were saddled with at the 11th hour (and I also don't like the fact that they back-paddled after the regionals, but that is a different tangent).
Quote from: wraslfan on February 25, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
Quote from: imnofish on February 25, 2017, 09:33:29 AM
Really? No benefits from all of the hard work and positive experiences over the years?
In time the experience of wrestling will help all the Depere wrestlers in other aspects of their lives. They'll remember and appreciate the hard work and dedication they put in and apply that to their careers, their personal lives etc...
They will also never forget the crushing decision by an inept organization, claiming to be there to look out for their best interests, and remember how that organization took all that they had worked for away from them. Ended their careers over a minor infraction made by other adults...they will realize that decision was made because it was the easy way out for the WIAA. That they hid behind a rule book instead of doing what was right. They completely ignored the motives of the other teams who reported the infraction. The WIAA made a decision completely contrary to all that the sport of wrestling stands for. I hope they use this experience in a positive way and learn how NOT to handle things as adults. I hope they realize that this is what happens with unchecked power, no competition, and no recourse. I hope they realize that just saying "I feel terrible about it" is not an excuse, not a good enough response for failing to do the right thing.
I get it; but you're blaming the cop. Maybe they'll be mad at their coaches/AD for inappropriate term9 up. Or, even scarier, perhaps they'll get over it and never dwell on it again. You can't measure motives in justice; just weigh evidence and acknowledge a motive was there, if it was. They're a governing body that is governing. That upsets people in our real justice system, too. Unfortunate set of circumstances; but De Pere was in the wrong and paid. I hate a rat as much as the next (even scuzzier when you get to know them a little)but rats play a vital role in justice, at times.
Quote from: npope on February 25, 2017, 11:28:59 AM
Not that I don't lament the WIAA decision as well (if there weren't the time crunch involved with making a decision, I like to think they would have come up with a better solution), but let's be clear, the motives of those reporting does not impact the character of the infraction in any way - it is what it is and those reporting didn't make the mistake. Also, the WIAA is not there to protect the interests of the DePere wrestlers - it is there to protect the interests of its entire membership - which extends far beyond just the DePere wrestlers. And part of protecting the interests of the entire membership is enforcing the rules as written. The rules are established in advance, ratified by the membership, all membership should expect to be held accountable to those rules. That's just the way organizational structures are supposed to work. The WIAA had a balancing act to pull off under some serious time constraints and I for one, don't envy the conundrum they were saddled with at the 11th hour (and I also don't like the fact that they back-paddled after the regionals, but that is a different tangent).
I agree the motives of those reporting should have no consideration in the response from the WIAA (officially), but that is still part of the story. I am very aware that this goes well beyond Depere which only adds to the frustration of their decision. I can without question tell you that if I had any say at all in what sort of punishment should have been levied, taking the kids out of the tournament would not have been a consideration for me. We need rules, and accountability, no one denies that. We also need punishment that fits the crime. The WIAA failed everyone in HS athletics, not just the Depere wrestlers with this decision. They are worried about precedent? Then set a new precedent. It is that simple. It does not take an act of congress to use common sense. There were other decisions that could have been made, like holding those actually accountable for the infraction to task. That would make way too much sense for the WIAA, though.
Quote from: bigG on February 25, 2017, 11:40:07 AM
I get it; but you're blaming the cop. Maybe they'll be mad at their coaches/AD for inappropriate term up. Or, even scarier, perhaps they'll get over it and never dwell on it again. You can't measure motives in justice; just weigh evidence and acknowledge a motive was there, if it was. They're a governing body that is governing. That upsets people in our real justice system, too. Unfortunate set of circumstances; but De Pere was in the wrong and paid. I hate a rat as much as the next (even scuzzier when you get to know them a little)but rats play a vital role in justice, at times.
I'm not blaming the cop. The coach and AD are responsible for the infraction. The kids are being punished for it. It is unfortunate for the wrestlers (who had nothing to do with this), and no one else. The "Justice system" (in this case, the WIAA) examined the facts and punished the only party not responsible for the infraction...and by default rewarded those who brought the infraction to light...no matter their motives. A monkey could have made this decision. A "governing body" could have done the right thing, but didn't.
Do you honestly believe that these wrestlers will forget this? Get over it? Sure. Forget? Not a chance. They don't forget a bad call that cost them a big match. You think they'll forget being taken out of a chance at competing at the pinnacle event of their sport?
Does the rule specifically say the team has to be eliminated or are there other options that the WIAA could have used?
Quote from: wraslfan on February 25, 2017, 02:57:24 PM
Quote from: bigG on February 25, 2017, 11:40:07 AM
I get it; but you're blaming the cop. Maybe they'll be mad at their coaches/AD for inappropriate term up. Or, even scarier, perhaps they'll get over it and never dwell on it again. You can't measure motives in justice; just weigh evidence and acknowledge a motive was there, if it was. They're a governing body that is governing. That upsets people in our real justice system, too. Unfortunate set of circumstances; but De Pere was in the wrong and paid. I hate a rat as much as the next (even scuzzier when you get to know them a little)but rats play a vital role in justice, at times.
I'm not blaming the cop. The coach and AD are responsible for the infraction. The kids are being punished for it. It is unfortunate for the wrestlers (who had nothing to do with this), and no one else. The "Justice system" (in this case, the WIAA) examined the facts and punished the only party not responsible for the infraction...and by default rewarded those who brought the infraction to light...no matter their motives. A monkey could have made this decision. A "governing body" could have done the right thing, but didn't.
I hear ya. An unpopular decision. I would rather see the coach or AD get dinged. I don't have all the facts, though, and maybe the WIAA does and made their ruling from there.
What would your best outcome be?
Do you honestly believe that these wrestlers will forget this? Get over it? Sure. Forget? Not a chance. They don't forget a bad call that cost them a big match. You think they'll forget being taken out of a chance at competing at the pinnacle event of their sport?
Quote from: wraslfan on February 25, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
Quote from: imnofish on February 25, 2017, 09:33:29 AM
Really? No benefits from all of the hard work and positive experiences over the years?
In time the experience of wrestling will help all the Depere wrestlers in other aspects of their lives. They'll remember and appreciate the hard work and dedication they put in and apply that to their careers, their personal lives etc...
They will also never forget the crushing decision by an inept organization, claiming to be there to look out for their best interests, and remember how that organization took all that they had worked for away from them. Ended their careers over a minor infraction made by other adults...they will realize that decision was made because it was the easy way out for the WIAA. That they hid behind a rule book instead of doing what was right. They completely ignored the motives of the other teams who reported the infraction. The WIAA made a decision completely contrary to all that the sport of wrestling stands for. I hope they use this experience in a positive way and learn how NOT to handle things as adults. I hope they realize that this is what happens with unchecked power, no competition, and no recourse. I hope they realize that just saying "I feel terrible about it" is not an excuse, not a good enough response for failing to do the right thing.
The last paragraph has been discussed extensively here. I wasn't responding to that sentiment, but to a parent's statement that they wished their son had never wrestled. The first part of your answer supports my point. One major disappointment does not totally nullify everything experienced prior to that moment; nor does acknowledging the good things imply that the bad parts will just go away. Horrible situations happen in life, but there are generally a lot more good ones. We remember the bad ones easily, but the good ones must not be forgotten or unappreciated.