This Was Flagrant Misconduct?

[buc65]

He head butted the kid pretty clearly.

If you haven't watched this video. Please do. I'd love to see if people are getting behind "head butted pretty clearly." When the ref signals the first penalty, my initial thought was "Did I doze off and miss something?"

If anytime some goes forward and heads collide, it's a head butt, there were 50 missed USCs at state this year.

Do you think he pushed him out intentionally in the same exchange?

Yeah. He definitely pushed him. Two hands to the chest.

So the ref screwed up and didn't call stalling on green; like he should have by rule.

Are you defending the ref by pointing out that he's messing up more? Another bold strategy.

As it is, hands to the chest certainly is within the realm of a wrestling move, which would make it fine.

Just looking for clarification since you didn't complain the referee missed a stalling call.  Hands to the chest or not does not make it fine so green pushing the wrestling off the mat is stalling.

NFHS Points of Emphasis for 2018-19 include stalling.

Stalling

Wrestling is an aggressive endeavor and should be coached and executed in that manner. It is expected that wrestlers stay inbounds and compete. There is no passive wrestling. There are no provisions in the rules to allow a wrestler to rest. Backing off the mat out of bounds, pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds, hands locked around one leg of an opponent without the intent of taking him/her down or preventing the opponent from scoring is considered stalling. Regardless of the position – top, bottom or neutral – stalling is not acceptable. The referee shall be firm and consistent in enforcing the letter and spirit of the rule. The referee shall be unwavering in penalizing a stalling infraction without warning or hesitation.

If you're going to complain about the referee's and their calls at least be consistent and complain about every missed call.

[bigoil]

Well he pushed with his arms and head, very clearly, this wasn't a level change and two guys met.

[stritch]

On the lighter side......funny replay commentary of what sounds like young kids working the score table! 
When its all over, nobody bothered to them the final result so they debate how to score it......one just goes ahead makes an executive decision!

[GradeTough]

Luke, I see you are at it again. I love it. Bring it on. Well, you need to live in the real world. You have to adjust in real-time to real situations and scenarios. Part of wrestling whether from your opponent or from a ref. So if the kid is wrestling in a vacuum and only with his opponent, keep it going. But once you get dinged you might want to figure out quickly how to adjust. The ref has the power to influence the outcome of the match. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but that is the reality of the situation. The kid supposedly getting the 3rd ding for a phantom "checking the oil" call was suspicious at best but the ref has the power to make it and we know that at most tournaments the ref calls aren't overcome.

If we want ref-less matches then come up with a better solution and a few alternatives that actually make sense. Otherwise, you are writing to blind readers. We've heard your crying long enough.

[littleguy301]

Well I see that 2 piece uniform is going over well in that part of the country.

[buc65]

If we want ref-less matches then come up with a better solution and a few alternatives that actually make sense. Otherwise, you are writing to blind readers. We've heard your crying long enough.

Someone last night thought the way to defend a ref messing up calls in one direction was to point out a call he screwed up the other way. LOL.

I wasn't defending the referee by my comment.  I was asking you if he also screwed up missed the stalling call 8 seconds into match.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in only complaining about some of his calls, but not all of his calls.  In your reply you even proved that you wouldn't call stalling as it is written in the rules and as a point of emphasis for this year from NFHS.

Referee's should officiate the rulebook to each game or match, and not officiate the game or match to the rulebook. 

If they officiate each game to the rulebook in every sport, no one would enjoy sports.  Every wrestling match would have kids stalled out of matches, football would have holding (possibly multiple) on every single play, basketball would have fouls and traveling called way more frequently, hockey and lacrosse would have multiple players in the penalty box most of the game, etc. 

That is what happens if there is no subjectivity involved and everything is cut and dry to the book. 

The accountability for paid adults is that they won't get paid in the future.  If the referee is not good, they should not get assigned games / matches / tournaments.  The problem is there are too many people who want to complain about referee's, but won't step up and became a referee to make the sports better and provide better referees.

I officiate a sport at the youth, high school, and collegiate level and take pride in the effort I give and off the field work I put into being a good official.  I get a lot more work during the season and off-season than guys I work with, because I'm not there just to get paid. 

You should go and officiate a sport sometime (how about wrestling?) instead of saying maybe you'll do it when your kids are older.  You appear to have hours of time to post on here and provide the stats that you do (great information by the way), so you can probably find a few hours in your week where you could go officiate a sport. 

Instead of constantly complaining about the problem, DO something about the problem. 

[littleguy301]

If we want ref-less matches then come up with a better solution and a few alternatives that actually make sense. Otherwise, you are writing to blind readers. We've heard your crying long enough.

I have solutions. A lot of them. It's hard to get to them though, when the entire forum (all with sneaky ties to refereeing that they don't want to disclose), won't acknowledge the problem that needs fixing.

"Refs literally make 1,000s of mistakes, but it's not a problem."
"Refs very likely react to prior matches."
"If the ref is bad, the wrestler should react, not the rule making body that deals with refereeing."

Someone last night thought the way to defend a ref messing up calls in one direction was to point out a call he screwed up the other way. LOL.

When people get to the level of self awareness where they can acknowledge the problem from reading their own words, we can talk about making things easier on the refs. Giving them more concrete standards. Counts in specific positions. Taking all post match calls out of their hands. Changing the burden of proof for behavior calls. There's so much to make their jobs easier.

As it is, I'm not happy we're stuck here, where I just point out over and over and over how we have no accountability for paid adults and are more than willing to drop a heavy authoritative fist on 15-year-old kids, emotional in the thralls of competition.

But, that's where we are.

(As a note, Tom's language filter zaps "screw1ng" but not "screwed," in case anyone is curious.

Looking forward to seeing you ref next year. Best wishes and hope it is a fun experience for you.

[GradeTough]

If we want ref-less matches then come up with a better solution and a few alternatives that actually make sense. Otherwise, you are writing to blind readers. We've heard your crying long enough.

I have solutions. A lot of them. It's hard to get to them though, when the entire forum (all with sneaky ties to refereeing that they don't want to disclose), won't acknowledge the problem that needs fixing.

"Refs literally make 1,000s of mistakes, but it's not a problem."
"Refs very likely react to prior matches."
"If the ref is bad, the wrestler should react, not the rule making body that deals with refereeing."

Someone last night thought the way to defend a ref messing up calls in one direction was to point out a call he screwed up the other way. LOL.

When people get to the level of self awareness where they can acknowledge the problem from reading their own words, we can talk about making things easier on the refs. Giving them more concrete standards. Counts in specific positions. Taking all post match calls out of their hands. Changing the burden of proof for behavior calls. There's so much to make their jobs easier.

As it is, I'm not happy we're stuck here, where I just point out over and over and over how we have no accountability for paid adults and are more than willing to drop a heavy authoritative fist on 15-year-old kids, emotional in the thralls of competition.

But, that's where we are.

(As a note, Tom's language filter zaps "screw1ng" but not "screwed," in case anyone is curious.

Looking forward to seeing you ref next year. Best wishes and hope it is a fun experience for you.

Actually, I vote against Luke becoming a ref. He'd be horrible. Absolutely terrible. Let's keep him on the forum where he can't make a difference...a negative difference. You must have subjectivity as a ref. Like you said, otherwise refs following a rule book to the law would completely ruin a sport.

I think Luke is typically arguing on the penalties that are not as transparent to the general public surrounding disciplining refs. We see the impact to the athlete since the results of a refs decision occurs real-time. In my opinion, I think you did answer that as far as the penalties refs face for bad performance. It is just others aren't necessarily aware nor understand the evaluation criteria, frequency of evaluations, nor outcomes for ref disciplinary actions.

[imnofish]

If we want ref-less matches then come up with a better solution and a few alternatives that actually make sense. Otherwise, you are writing to blind readers. We've heard your crying long enough.

Someone last night thought the way to defend a ref messing up calls in one direction was to point out a call he screwed up the other way. LOL.

I wasn't defending the referee by my comment.  I was asking you if he also screwed up missed the stalling call 8 seconds into match.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in only complaining about some of his calls, but not all of his calls.  In your reply you even proved that you wouldn't call stalling as it is written in the rules and as a point of emphasis for this year from NFHS.

Referee's should officiate the rulebook to each game or match, and not officiate the game or match to the rulebook. 

If they officiate each game to the rulebook in every sport, no one would enjoy sports.  Every wrestling match would have kids stalled out of matches, football would have holding (possibly multiple) on every single play, basketball would have fouls and traveling called way more frequently, hockey and lacrosse would have multiple players in the penalty box most of the game, etc. 

That is what happens if there is no subjectivity involved and everything is cut and dry to the book. 

The accountability for paid adults is that they won't get paid in the future.  If the referee is not good, they should not get assigned games / matches / tournaments.  The problem is there are too many people who want to complain about referee's, but won't step up and became a referee to make the sports better and provide better referees.

I officiate a sport at the youth, high school, and collegiate level and take pride in the effort I give and off the field work I put into being a good official.  I get a lot more work during the season and off-season than guys I work with, because I'm not there just to get paid. 

You should go and officiate a sport sometime (how about wrestling?) instead of saying maybe you'll do it when your kids are older.  You appear to have hours of time to post on here and provide the stats that you do (great information by the way), so you can probably find a few hours in your week where you could go officiate a sport. 

Instead of constantly complaining about the problem, DO something about the problem. 

Absolutely agree with this post!  There are many who get into officiating when they are at extremely busy points in their lives.  They only take on what they can fit into their schedule; that often requires cutting back on other endeavors or officiating on a limited basis.  My officiating days (long past) began when I was a married father of 2, working full time, and commuting about 100 miles daily (round trip) to attend college full time.  My officiating was limited to Saturdays, at tournaments/multi-duals within a 30 minute drive of my home.  There were some Saturdays that I didn't ref at all.  However, I was able to learn a lot through my experiences and the mentoring of some outstanding experienced officials.  It was a real eye opener and I recommend that every coach or potential coach spend some time as a registered official.

[jeast]

Luke typed: "As it is, I'm not happy we're stuck here, where I just point out over and over and over how we have no accountability for paid adults and are more than willing to drop a heavy authoritative fist on 15-year-old kids, emotional in the thralls of competition."

My day job is a PE teacher. How is that different? I try not to be authoritative, but...alas, that would make my job harder if I wasn't somewhat authoritative. Our job as adults, parents, teachers, coaches and yes, even officials is to be authoritative. Every law, every rule has to have the authority to punish behind it. Every one. SO, yeah, you could be handled heavily if you break that law, rule. And yes, I hope that a police officer doesn't pull me over for 5 over the posted speed limit, but if he does, I know that I will use my words, especially the vocab of remorse and try to lessen the blow.

As educators, we are trying our very best to prepare our students and especially our athletes for adulthood. Getting a wrong call is again, a circumstance that CAN'T define us. How we handle it will. Welcome to adulthood.

[DocWrestling]

Luke,

You are the one making refs worse!  Your attitude prevents further people from reffing and/or gets others to quit reffing.

You want reffing to get better but it gets worse with fewer people reffing.  Without refs all you have is recess.  If you called everything by the rules now then there would be a penalty on every play in football and a foul on every play in basketball.  Is that what you want?  It would make it easier on the refs but would you even have a sport or would the kids or fans even enjoy it?

All refs are held accountable.  They don't get hired if the ADs, coaches, or conferences don't like them.  But in the real world they all have to get hired because there is such a shortage.

If we somehow can get back to HS sports as a "game" that does not matter in big picture of life and refs are serving a role to allow these "games" to be held.   Then we can realize we are competing 100% but in the end the result does not matter.  That is an adult perspective that comes over time.  I can only laugh at people that think a victory or loss in a "game" matters in their lives. 

[Army Ant]

This is one particular match in a different state. There are probably thousands if not millions of bad calls across the nation on any given Saturday of high school wrestling. Maybe thousands just in WI alone. Even at the college level or at the WIAA state tournament there are plenty of incorrect calls (hence replay options and use of assistant refs at various levels). There is a lot of subjectivity to it, the refs are human, and you don't always have the "best of the best" out on the mat. Even when you do, there are errors. Yah; maybe he made a bad call here. I don't see the point in creating a thread about it when this happened in a different state. It is pretty common at every level of wrestling and that is never going to change unless you want to blow your refereeing budgets.

[littleguy301]

I wasn't defending the referee by my comment.  I was asking you if he also screwed up missed the stalling call 8 seconds into match.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in only complaining about some of his calls, but not all of his calls.  In your reply you even proved that you wouldn't call stalling as it is written in the rules and as a point of emphasis for this year from NFHS.

Not hypocrisy. Picking my battles. Would you like me to complain about every missed call I see? I can. As it is, I just try to focus on the more consequential stuff, like DQing someone out of a tourney instead of a simple stall.

And, even in that call on the edge, there exists loads of subjectivity. A shove out of bounds is stalling, unless it's the setup to a move. You are supposed to keep wrestling, even on the edge, after all. I don't really care what subjective decision the ref made there, as much as I'm annoyed there was another subjective decision he had to make.

Referee's should officiate the rulebook to each game or match, and not officiate the game or match to the rulebook.  

If the ref is consistent, that's what the rulebook intends. If calls vary match-to-match, it's not. I'm not going to try to decipher what your proverb, or whatever, means. Consistency is the reason for rulebooks and points of emphasis and training.

If they officiate each game to the rulebook in every sport, no one would enjoy sports.  Every wrestling match would have kids stalled out of matches, football would have holding (possibly multiple) on every single play, basketball would have fouls and traveling called way more frequently, hockey and lacrosse would have multiple players in the penalty box most of the game, etc.  

No. Absolutely not. The more refereeing is consistent, the more athletes know what to expect and can tailor their training and eventually their performance to it. To the extent they have to adapt to refs on the fly, it makes the product worse.

I want you to imagine a basketball game where 10-foot hoop is raised and lowered 6 inches at random throughout the game. It would make for terrible shooting. Refs are supposed to be the hoop.

The accountability for paid adults is that they won't get paid in the future.  If the referee is not good, they should not get assigned games / matches / tournaments.  

True. That is how it should work.

I don't work at the WIAA though. Here, where we discuss wrestling, not a person besides me will take even the slightest negative stance toward a ref's mistakes, let alone suggest a course of consequence for them. If you think I'm wrong, find it. Find the (non-me) person  saying there should be consequence for a ref's mistake. Start with the garage escape in the Halter match and work backward.

You appear to have hours of time to post on here and provide the stats that you do (great information by the way), so you can probably find a few hours in your week where you could go officiate a sport.

If I'm here during the day, where do you think I am in the evenings?

Besides, do you want ME with all that power? I've seen how easy it is to do whatever you want as a ref without consequences. Are you ready to have your school's top kid DQed out of regionals, with no recourse, just as retribution to you? If the WIAA wins its appeal and isn't forced to put in checks-and-balances, there's nothing that could stop me from doing that and admitting it afterward.

You don't want ME as a referee.

like I said before, looking forward to seeing you ref next season. I think it would be a great idea. I think you will find that whole power thing you speak of will go our the window at some point and I am sure that feeling of being powerless will come into play. once you get over those 2 highs and lows your going to be johnny ref on the spot and looking forward to seeing you in the stripes!

[O Harris]

Referees will make mistakes and I know every single one of them will admit to this. They are human right? The one thing Luke has stated is they need to be consistent with their calls. I watched one dual where the referee didn't remember the new rule that a pin can occur outside the circle. Every match after that he didn't call the pin if it was outside the circle. He knew his mistake, but he stayed consistent with that call through out the dual as not to be favoring one side over the other. Referees will make mistakes and they will learn from them. If they are consistent throughout the dual or tournament who really cares. If the referee is good you will know what they will call and what they won't call because they are consistent.

[thequad]

First I would like to say I was an official for almost 30 years.
Now this is just my opinion. I watched the video several times. I don't think I would have called the head butt. I don't know what happened on the out of bounds call. About checking the oil call I couldn't see the part away from the camera, but when they came around all four fingers were together. If there was oil checking it had to happen before they came around and should been called at that time. It looked to me that this ref had it in for green right from the start. Again this is just my opinion.
OK go ahead and pick me apart. LOL