Divisions

[dforsythe]

I was going to wait until after the state team tournament to share my Divisions spreadsheet because I wanted to be sure about competitive balance. But I think all of those that are moving are locked in, so I decided to share it. I have not heard about any co-ops changing, ending, or starting. I also have not heard of any teams starting or dropping their programs. All of those things will impact the cutline.  So here is the link. Let me know if you see any errors.

[Wis-Mallard]

Would Prairie du Chien be D1 since they earned competitive balance points competing in D2? Based on enrollment they would be D3 next year. I don't have answers, just questions. You have them in D2 again.

[dforsythe]

Would Prairie du Chien be D1 since they earned competitive balance points competing in D2? Based on enrollment they would be D3 next year. I don't have answers, just questions. You have them in D2 again.

I asked Mel Dow that question and he said they would move from 3 to 2 not from 3 to 1.

[VQOriginal]

Fennimore wanted to make the same jump. Mel didn't say instantly no. He had to check some things. But then ultimately said no.

[No One Cares]

See below. Relevant to the topic at hand....

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/high-school/xcountry/2024/02/29/green-bay-notre-dame-cross-country-not-giving-up-on-fight-against-wiaa/72780738007/

GREEN BAY – To be a cross-country runner requires endurance. More than anyone, distance runners understand how long the process takes and how long they must fight to have a chance to win.

Perhaps that's why Green Bay Notre Dame coach John Gard and his runners, along with several around the state, refuse to give up their fight against the WIAA and its tournament factor initiative, which promotes programs that reach a level of postseason success based on a point system over a three-year period to a higher division.

Notre Dame will move from Division 2 to Division 1 in the fall.

Coaches and athletes recently spoke in front of the Assembly Education committee at the State Capitol in Madison about Assembly Bill 1034, which relates to participation in interscholastic athletics and application of the public records and open meeting laws to interscholastic athletic associations.

The list of speakers featured a trio of Wisconsin Cross-Country Association Hall of Fame coaches who worked in one of the three divisions.

It included Randy Marks of D1 Verona, Denny McGraw of D2 Dodgeville/Mineral Point and Arnie Miehe of D3 Darlington.

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The three have more than a combined 100 years of coaching experience, and Miehe is a former national cross-country coach of the year.

"I have not talked to one person that thought it would be a good idea," McGraw said of the competitive balance initiative for cross-country. "Not one. The information and how it's working, we didn't know that well. We were not aware of or informed about."

The committee passed the open meetings bill 10-5 in the middle of February, and it was passed by a voice vote last week to head to the senate.

Members of the senate will meet again in the middle of March, and Gov. Tony Evers would have to sign it into law.

"There is no accountability for the decisions that they make, and when they are asked questions, they give multiple different answers," Gard said about the WIAA. "Often times, we would argue, they are not giving truthful answers.


"I'm sure people feel like we may not get the governor to sign it into law. We have to continue our efforts. We were thrilled with the results last week. In the last couple weeks, you have seen this great momentum. Some people joke and call this the cross-country legislation and not just open records."

Even if the bill is signed into law, it doesn't mean the WIAA can't keep the tournament factor initiative. But Gard and others believe it would fundamentally transform the decision-making process and the "cloud" the WIAA operates under.

The organization is not required to provide information through open records laws, and the WIAA believes it's important it stays that way.

"As a private, not-for-profit organization that receives no public tax dollars from the state of Wisconsin, the WIAA opposes a bill that would subject the association to open records law," the WIAA said in a statement. "The bill will potentially infringe on this organization's autonomy and ability to operate efficiently in the best interests of student-athletes, member schools and the communities they serve."

WIAA Executive Director Stephanie Hauser was asked why information is not available to those who wish to learn how the WIAA makes decisions. She said the WIAA almost always provides information when requested.

"It's truly only in the cases of very school sensitive information that we don't allow that to go out," she said.

Many in the cross-country community continue to feel left in the dark about the competitive balance situation.

There are 10 boys teams and 11 girls teams impacted by the tournament factor initiative. Schools were afforded the opportunity to appeal their promotion to the division with the next largest enrollments based on performance points.

Of the 63 programs in six fall sports that were impacted, 24 submitted appeals and one was approved.

According to cross-country coaches who spoke at the Capitol, there were no reasons given when their appeals were denied.

"We understand, and not sure the WIAA understands and some of their member schools, but we are in this for the long haul," Gard said. "We are not going away. If we don't get this across the finish line this spring, I don't care if it takes us three years, we are going to get it done.

"They are going to be able to point back to, 'Where did this all come from?' All they have to do is look in the mirror. They overreached. They punished these kids, and I get more and more calls and emails and texts all the time from people saying, 'How can I help?'"

Gard praised his three girls runners who spoke to committee members and answered their questions at the Capitol. They drove themselves to Madison because they had a strong desire to participate.

"It was a moment where I watched these girls demonstrate the depth of their character," Gard said. "The depth of their integrity. It's a pretty intimidating place, but they spoke very clearly and were very open to answering questions.


"I don't know that I've ever been prouder of three girls in the entire time I've coached than those three."

Here is a condensed look at what the trio from Notre Dame said to the committee.

Green Bay Notre Dame's Anna Miller (749) competed at the WIAA Division 2 state meet as a freshman.
Anna Miller, freshman

"Since I was little, I've tried my best to strive for success in everything I commit myself to. I've always told myself if I put in the work, the reward will come. But because of what the WIAA is doing, the statement is no longer correct. We thought that placing high at state was the best reward we could have asked for, but after hearing the recent news, we weren't so sure. Moving our teams up a division will not only punish us for the success as a team but will subtract from our success in future years.

"To the rest of my team, this ruins our chance to be competitive in a fair and equal environment. Instead, we'd be drowning in larger teams with higher skill. We never knew this was going to happen. The WIAA had private meetings and made these decisions without thinking of the impact it made on a 14-year-old girl who loves her sport more than anything. So, this is our reward? This is what practicing every day for four months gave us?"

Green Bay Notre Dame junior Mia Miller is a standout in multiple sports, including tennis.
Mia Miller, junior

"Notre Dame Academy cross-country has proven to be a highly successful team in Division 2, and up until a few months ago, this success resembled nothing but happiness for me and the cross-county community. Success was a reason to be uplifted, which pushed us to strive for more success as a team. Ultimately, the reason we compete in sports is to reach the status of achievement and victory. With the recent actions taken by the WIAA, the success that we have previously been praised for is being approached in a very different way.


"From the eyes of a female high school varsity cross-country runner, because I chose to work hard, train hard, compete hard and therefore prove victorious, I'm being penalized.

"This philosophy opposes everything I've ever been taught in life and is different from the values of the Notre Dame Academy cross-country team as well as most other teams in this state. ... The WIAA conducted these decisions in private meetings with miniscule accountability, leaving athletes across Wisconsin confused and disappointed by what they believe are the leaders of high school sports in Wisconsin."

Green Bay Notre Dame's Kinsey Gallagher (381) competes at the WIAA Division 2 state meet in 2022.
Kinsey Gallagher, junior

"This feels like a punishment from the WIAA for the status of victory we have reached. As I think about the incoming freshmen for our next year and upcoming years, I think it will be hard to attract runners simply knowing we are Division 1 and we will be competing against the larger schools with a much larger pool of students to choose from. I feel like Notre Dame may be targeted because of this recent success, but we should not be punished or moved up to the highest level of competition. Many athletes have an outstanding high school career, however, do not even think about competing at the collegiate level simply because of the caliber of athletes. They do not feel they could even compete or make a difference.


"By moving us up to D1, I think a lot of our younger athletes are going to feel the same way, defeated before their athletic career even begins. Which in turn can decrease the numbers of student-athletes willing to compete in this difficult and challenging sport. Why do we punish athletes for their success?"

[dforsythe]

Apparently the Sun Prairie coop is ending so I have adjusted my spreadsheet.

[Ledger]

If I had to guess, I'm assuming this policy is in response to private school success in football and now its backfiring against the other sports.  There's a big difference between moving from D6 to D5 in football vs. moving D2 to D1 in individual sports that have only 3 divisions.

[panther93]

If I had to guess, I'm assuming this policy is in response to private school success in football and now its backfiring against the other sports.  There's a big difference between moving from D6 to D5 in football vs. moving D2 to D1 in individual sports that have only 3 divisions.

Yes it is, also include basketball and volleyball.  Unfortunately when the school vote on these things the larger unaffected school could care less, so they went along with it. 

They should have gone with a multiplier for private schools, but none of the large schools would vote for that as they just don't care.

[rankwizard]

What if a school takes the WIAA to court on this decision?

[Army Ant]

D3 will become the JV State Championship.

[Numbers]

D3 will become the JV State Championship.

Other D3 teams will step up to earn a championship.  If you think moving 2-3 teams make D3 JV, we should probably move to two wrestling divisions.

If the teams that move up are not pretty successful at the higher level, they will be moved back down.

[rankwizard]

D3 will become the JV State Championship.

Incorrect statement. Teams like IGH, Aquinas, Shiocton, Stratford, Cumberland, Weyauwega, random lake, Marathon, and others have high quality wrestlers.

[Army Ant]

I'm obviously exaggerating but point is that instead of being the small schools, it's now gonna be the small schools, minus the wrestlers from the best small schools. Look at the d3 brackets this year. Quite a few wrestlers from the top teams won it. Can't remember who's moving up besides fennimore but either way there were a few. Quality of wrestling will be degraded. Good for d1 though. I'll just watch more of those matches next year and largely ignore d3. D2 will remain about the same.

[rankwizard]

I'm obviously exaggerating but point is that instead of being the small schools, it's now gonna be the small schools, minus the wrestlers from the best small schools. Look at the d3 brackets this year. Quite a few wrestlers from the top teams won it. Can't remember who's moving up besides fennimore but either way there were a few. Quality of wrestling will be degraded. Good for d1 though. I'll just watch more of those matches next year and largely ignore d3. D2 will remain about the same.

D3 fans wont miss you. Plenty of star power left.

[Bellytobelly]

I'm obviously exaggerating but point is that instead of being the small schools, it's now gonna be the small schools, minus the wrestlers from the best small schools. Look at the d3 brackets this year. Quite a few wrestlers from the top teams won it. Can't remember who's moving up besides fennimore but either way there were a few. Quality of wrestling will be degraded. Good for d1 though. I'll just watch more of those matches next year and largely ignore d3. D2 will remain about the same.

D3 fans wont miss you. Plenty of star power left.

Fennimore had 3 champs plus another two placers and one other qualifier, Coleman had 1 finalist and 2 other placers and 4 other qualifiers. If you took those 2 schools out which they will be next year, ~20% of the champs are not there and ~15% of finalists are not there, ~10% of qualifiers and placers are not there. Still plenty of star power for sure but a considerable amount would not be there anymore. I will still watch the D3 guys but you cannot argue that it will not be weaker. There will still be many solid teams in D3 even with those two out as well.