Would kids moving to clubs help or hurt the future?

[bulldog]

factfinder...let's look at your points:

#1 - our biggest fan are high school level fans - I disagree. Go to a youth tournament (pre-covid) and then go to a HS meet. The biggest fan base are youth parents. And youth wrestlers are competing through a club. So...in reality the biggest fan base is the fan base of club wrestlers (and a wrestling group in a school is still a club because they are not supported by the schools). Most high schools biggest annual fundraiser is a youth tournament. That youth tournament is based on a youth club.

#2 - coaches and referees come out of "local SEASON wrestlers"? I suppose currently the coaches and refs in the sport are...because there was not club wrestling 40 years ago. Any new ref or coach will have wrestled club.

#3 - Table workers come out of local seasonal wrestlers. I have seen enough club wrestlers working the tables at Dominate the Dells or Pre-Season Nationals.

#4 - Elite level wrestlers don't typically coach at the local youth level. First point...youth level is many times club wrestling. So...yeah...elite wrestlers do coach at the local youth. But if we look at PURE clubs. Walking into WGW, FVE, and some other clubs. I have seen plenty of elite level wrestlers coaching in these clubs. I believe Robert Lee would be considered an Elite Level wrestler...

#5 - why would we not have college wrestling without HS? Gymnastics and swimming are recruiting more from club than from high schools. These sports still seem to be in college

#6 - Russia...so American wrestling is folkstyle. Russia is Greco and freestyle. Does Russia even have wrestling in the schools? I think it is all club in Russia. And they tend to kick our inappropriate term2 in the Olympics

So...your points do not seem to be based on facts (see what I did there?) but more on opinion.

[DocWrestling]

#1) Our youth programs are technically clubs but they are almost fully funded by taxpayers and high schools.  Where are practices held and where are tournaments held.  They are far from private clubs.  I would describe them more as feeder programs for high school teams.

#5) College swimming and gymnastics are the two sports cut more frequently than wrestling.  A big reason for that is the lack of high schools that support those sports.  The Midwest has the majority of college wrestling programs because there is high school wrestling.  Those states with minimal high school wrestling have the fewest college programs.

I guess in my mind we have to define what a club would look like.  I am viewing this as switching to club model long term. Going club for just this winter would have had minimal long term effect.

Right now how many private clubs are there in the state?  If there are 250+ HS wrestling teams, how many clubs would we have if HS wrestling was eliminated?

[bulldog]

I should clarify my stance. I sure don't want HS wrestling to go away. But my point is that club is an important part of the system.

Now...are youth programs actually funded by the high school programs? I have been involved with several youth programs and our money always came from a booster club set up for that program and the funds that were raised from the youth program always went to support the HS team. Funds were from participation fees, donations and typically a youth fund raiser (tournament). I don't recall ever seeing funding for a youth program dedicated to support a youth wrestling program. But maybe some are but I would be surprised if HS sports funding was earmarked for youth sports...I could be wrong.

A big reason college swimming and gymnastics are cut is because of lack of revenue. College are facing scrutiny over their funds. Basketball and football bring in revenue. Swimming and gymnastics doesn't. Baseball is a popular sport...no lack of talent. UW-Madison doesn't have a baseball team. It isn't because of lack of recruits. UW Madison has a club rowing team...it isn't because of abundance of recruits. College are recruiting more from club for gymnastics and swimming than from HS talent...

BTW...high school wrestling by state: 1. California (22,602); 2. Illinois (14,170); 3. New York (11,184); 4. Texas (10,998); 5. Ohio (10,313); 6. New Jersey (9,648); 7. Pennsylvania (9,460); 8. Washington (9,251); 9. Michigan (9,167); 10. Minnesota (8,058). Out of the top 10...three are what I would consider Midwest, Illinois, Michigan and Minnesota...so your point about the programs are here...isn't really accurate. Wisconsin doesn't break the top 10

Private club has a lot of negatives. I hope this is temporary and next year High School wrestling is in full swing. But this should be a wake up call to the sport. It needs to consider evolution. Because now the door has been cracked. We have seen elite wrestlers forgo a HS career - Macey Kilty, Benji Peak and a couple others. Now we see clubs finding opportunities to compete that HS don't. There have been several club tournaments. No huge Covid outbreak.

So...how is Wisconsin HS wrestling going to look at lessons from this season and change for the betterment of the sport? Or are we going to go back to bitching about too many weight classes, too few athletes, crappy draws at tournaments etc?

I am not looking to crap on ideas but opinion isn't going to make the sport better. We need to look at what is actually happening and grow the sport based on that information

[DocWrestling]

My point about Youth clubs was more that the biggest expense for a youth club is a practice facility, mats, utilities and place to host a tournament fundraiser.  That is provided by the high school and taxpayers.  That would be a huge cost to offset for a private club.  You are right that I have not seen a high school program fund a youth program.  It is usually the other way around.  If you are not a feeder program with just kids from our district then our district charges you rent, utilities, and custodial costs and you are last to have availability to reserve those facilities.

I don't think we are probably too far from having a club team in Milwaukee area that would be similar to Blair Academy.  I see that evolving to maybe a couple per state

[bulldog]

Doc...thanks for the clarification.

Yep...I agree. Practice items are what would sink the ship...I think. And I agree the youth groups are were many wrestlers get introduced to the sport and either stick with it or not. Granted (I would guess) most that are introduced are introduced by a parent with a wrestling background. But there are the occasional non-wrestling families that get in because a buddy brought a friend to club.

I think there would be a percentage lost.

I know when my boys were very little we lived 1.5 hours from WGW and I swore I would never drive 1.5 hours one way just for wrestling practice 2 nights a week. Thankfully we ended up moving to Point and had Coach Hall in our backyard. So we were spoiled. There were kids driving 1.5 hours to come to WGW. And by the time the boys got into middle school we were adding an hour drive to the Fox Valley or Madison for additional practice. So I did become the guy driving for wrestling practice. I would guess we crazies are a percentage of the wrestling community. So yes...all club would lose some athletes.

I would not want to see wrestling become a business. But we have watched swimming, gymnastics and other sports migrate that way. Why? Was it because the HS didn't offer what the athlete wanted in a program? Was it because the schools didn't care to have those sports because they were not as "sexy" as football/basketball? Is wrestling the next one on the block? And how do we turn that boat around?

I look at things from a marketing standpoint and I think wrestling has been managed wrong. We need a "homerun". Golf was an old guys, country club sport until Tiger Woods and John Daily. Swimming was not even considered until Micheal Phelps. Every 4 years gymnastics get a shot in the arm at the Olympics (same with figure skating). But wrestling is quietly sitting on the side.

I just started with a new company and they are looking to partner with a national sport with their nutrition drinks. I mention wrestling and say "Dan Gable and Dennis Hall"...seriously half the room asked "who?". The other half just saw the report that Gable was getting the Medal of Freedom.

My point...we can make the sport grow but it has to happen at the youth and HS levels. And maybe we need to partner with the clubs to grow the sport. There are coaches that think club wrestling is the enemy. How many HS coaches are at the state greco/freestyle tournament?

Anyway...sorry for the soapbox. I could rant for hours about growing the sport but sadly if everything goes back to "normal" next year we will be talking about reducing weight classes and bitching that the state tournament should be seeded and complaining that the skinfold process is bs. And we will wonder why our numbers are declining.

[3boys]

I agree wrestling has a marketing poblem. We need to make it more appealing to kids. The average kids. they are the ones that fill out the squad. Every year we have a pretty good idea who will make it out of regionals, what coach hasn't looked at his regional and thought about returning wrestlers. Then on to sectional and state. But it is the average kids that we are missing out on. Club wrestling would not be a help with those kids unless an elete. or dedicated wrestler was his best friend. Most of the average kids will not drive an hour twice a week to a club, much less pay the fee. Club wrestling has an important part to play but not so much for the average wrestler and that is the kid(s) we need to get back in the wrestling room.

[bigG]

Clubs are a good thing and help advance the sport to a higher level. I feel the more clubs we get the more elite wrestlers we'll yield. Good thing. I also like MS/HS wrestling as I love school affiliation.

Wrestling has a tough time marketing because it keeps shooting itself in the foot. I don't know how even the best refs can keep up with the silly changes over the years. We have to be a little less fluid about rule changes. If it's a challenge for refs, it is lost to most. Cylinder, intimate scoring, etc. This is wrestling not rocket science. Even gymnastics (my daughter's sport, now she coaches in a very successful club in MN)you can see the difference between an 8.0 and a 6.0. How do I explain intimate scoring to a parent who's kid just came out? The cylinder. Jeez. I wish colleges agreed on some simpler scoring so it would trickle down and align a little more with pragmatism. Just my .02.

[bulldog]

I somewhat disagree 3boys...wrestling doesn't have a marketing problem. It has a motivation problem. The motivation to promote the sport. There is no reason with the technology available today that every school is not streaming their matches. Wrestling is not the easy sport. You don't have a team to "hide" behind if you screw up. So wrestling isn't going to get everyone. But simple efforts like streaming matches, running greco/freestyle programs in the off season, going to state greco/freestyle, organizing a team going to youth tournaments, going to youth tournaments and asking. Utilizing a little of the booster club $$ for posters to hang around the school. And (in some cases) to think of wrestling more than November - February. Take the team to a summer camp in the Dells. There are so many things that can be done to grow the sport.

If some guy in a little town off HWY 29 near Wausau can turn a basketball town into a wrestling community then I think it can be done by others.

Sure rules change...but the basics are the same. I started wrestling in the 70s and basically a takedown is 2 pts and has been 2 pts forever.

But I am just giving lip service...what can we do? I think it needs to start at the HS level. Maybe get more parents involved in the team. Get one to stream the matches. Maybe one of your parents actually has a marketing background. Get them involved in the booster club. There are a lot of things. But my point remains the same...stop bitching about losing numbers if no change internally is being made.