When is a team too small?

[tmandr]

Bay Port seemed to waste a perfectly good practice night last night in it's dual with Manitowoc who only brought 9 kids, 1 JV and 8 varsity.  When is a team required to just forfeit a dual because they don't have enough kids? Or look for opportunities to partner with another school to field closer to a full team?  Can I get my $4 admission back?

[Ghetto]

We had two kids one year before I got to Bay. Rather than complain about someone's numbers, go out and build the sport.

Send me your address and I'll send you a check for $4

[Mat Warrior]

Looking at last nights duals on track, Flambeau and Shell Lake had 7 double forfeits and 4 single forfeits  with only 3 matches wrestled. These are a lot smaller schools but 2 programs that have their work cut out for them. Shell lake used to have a great program.

[aarons23]

Ghetto...it's a good question.....yes building the sport and program the key....but why should some schools be punished because other schools can not field a team?  Your not building the sport by able bodied wrestlers taking forfeit.  Bay Port is not across the street from Manitowoc....so there is more into than $4.  Not sure there can or should be a requirement for a team to forfeit, but conferences and teams should take more into consideration when scheduling these dual....maybe combine duals of these teams that can not field more than ten or eleven wrestlers.  Triple dual would also be better.

[jeast]

Little harsh there Ghetto.  I understand your frustration, but his question should be addressed with an honest debate.

I know that this isn't going to go over very well....but....here goes anyway.

I have absolutely no idea what state Mani's program is in at the High School level.  I reside in the SW part of the State of Wisconsin.  I would be willing to bet that Mani's youth program has 50+ kids though.  Again, I have no idea really.  

My question is, where are those kids at the High School level?  

We have the same problem in the SW part of the State.  200-350 kids at a youth tourney every weekend near us, with every school represented and empty High School teams.  Why?  

Shouldn't we address the issue with more than statements like:  "go out and build the sport"?  

Obviously, something else is at issue here.  Probably a combination of things.  Yeah, kids have changed.  Yeah, no farm kids.  Yeah, lazy.  Yeah, hand held games and computers...yeah, yeah, yeah.  

One of the biggest complaints I hear from young men is about saturdays.  ALL DAY LONG and unless you are one of the top place winners, you really couldn't care less about the day after your two matches, or three.  

Another phrase I hear a lot is:  "I tried wrestling in grade school/youth.  I am not good at it"  Can we address this?  How?  What are some things our youth coaches can and should be doing differently so that kids don't come to the conclusion as an 8 year old that they are not good at the sport?  

There are some more issues, but these two should bring about some quality discussion in my opinion.  I have some idea's but I would like to hear from the rest of you first.

[tmandr]

I truely meant the $4 as a joke, obviously.  If you knew me, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who has done more to help build a program.  Sorry if it sounded like an attack on Manitowoc specifically.  I see some great discussion coming out and that was my intention.  I like the dieas of requiring such teams to be in multi school duals.

Some of the most insightfull are discussions about why there are some programs with massive youth participation but difficulty fielding a varsity.  I have often wondered if it is because of kids getting burnt out young or figuring out they wil never be an upper tier wrestler and don't want to work that hard to not make varsity or be a 500 wrestler...

[Handles II]

It's tough creating a paradiam shift. Go to a school deeply rooted in hockey and it's basketball team often is less than outstanding. Go to a town where zero emphasis is placed on education, and you won't see many kids going to college.
A coach retires and the youth coaches go with him, it can be tough to get back.
All you can do is keep working on it.
I do also believe that forced conference duals should be looked at. That's one issue I have with conferences. It doesn't mean a thing regarding State, but it is required. Dumb IMO.
The kids in wrestling (that's the real issue here) could be better served with coaches setting up duals or tri's with teams of closer caliber yet be able to keep some of the old rivalries of yesteryear that the fans so enjoy.

[DarkKnight]

Its pretty tough for some schools with not much tradition.. we have a team in our conference with only 4 wrestlers, but they have had some good wrestlers...

[1Iota]

I am not going to name the school because I don't want to drag anyone through the mud, but I use to hear all of the reasons that our HS program had low numbers year after year.  No tradition, kids have changed, succesfull basketball program, football players want to lift in the offseason, ect.  A few years ago we hired a young dedicated coach who didn't want to hear any excuses.  He combed the hallways recruiting any kid who would listen.  He dedicated himself not only to the HS program, but the youth club & middle school program as well.  He encouraged the youth coaches to teach fundamentals & make it fun so the kids would learn to love the sport.  Here we sit a few years later & not only do we field a full varsity roster, but we have one of the larger JV teams in the area.  We also have experienced success on the Mat.  My point is that you need someone who is truly driven to build his program. 

[doublegotcha]

The WIAA needs to relax the restrictions on multi duals.  If you have multiduals you need to eliminate a tournament. (maybe that wouldn't be the worst thing).  Especially with the cost of travel, I would like to see more multi duals.  I hear you need to recruit to build the program....yea that sounds great but in smaller schools (not all but some) the population of boys/class fluctuates.  Sometimes there just aren't enough boys.  What I am seeing is too many kids only doing one sport.  Mostly football.  This winter we have three boys out for a sport.  We have about 320 students.

[DocWrestling]

I am not going to name the school because I don't want to drag anyone through the mud, but I use to hear all of the reasons that our HS program had low numbers year after year.  No tradition, kids have changed, succesfull basketball program, football players want to lift in the offseason, ect.  A few years ago we hired a young dedicated coach who didn't want to hear any excuses.  He combed the hallways recruiting any kid who would listen.  He dedicated himself not only to the HS program, but the youth club & middle school program as well.  He encouraged the youth coaches to teach fundamentals & make it fun so the kids would learn to love the sport.  Here we sit a few years later & not only do we field a full varsity roster, but we have one of the larger JV teams in the area.  We also have experienced success on the Mat.  My point is that you need someone who is truly driven to build his program.  

This is the one and only way and I speak in generality of all sports.  Problem is that there are fewer and fewer of these people that are willing to make that commitment.  And why?  Because they hate dealing with the parents.  And there you have it the parents have become the problem know it alls and have driven so many coaches away in all sports and at all levels.  I think some parents would rather get rid of coaches and jsut have each parent coach their kid at all times.

Why do we have a shortage of coaches in all sports especially amongst teachers?  Parents
Why do we have a shortage of refs/officials?  Parents
Why do kids stop playing sports?  Parents lose site that the kids play sports to have fun and be with their friends.

When is a HS team too small?  When the AD says so!  And lets be honest that we have had some very generous AD's that are keeping some of these programs afloat.  Parents and kids may need to change but I still think to save wrestling from looking more like hockey with co-ops is to reduce the # of weight classes.

[Ty Clark]

The WIAA needs to relax the restrictions on multi duals.  If you have multiduals you need to eliminate a tournament. (maybe that wouldn't be the worst thing).  Especially with the cost of travel, I would like to see more multi duals.  I hear you need to recruit to build the program....yea that sounds great but in smaller schools (not all but some) the population of boys/class fluctuates.  Sometimes there just aren't enough boys.  What I am seeing is too many kids only doing one sport.  Mostly football.  This winter we have three boys out for a sport.  We have about 320 students.

They did relax them a few years back. We will have both our dual against Big Foot and Palmyra the same night to cut down on the traveling time and there are going to be plenty of forfeits. We're doing the same with Pec and Rio. It saves a couple weigh-ins/bus trips/practices.

6. MAXIMUM ALLOWED MEETS
a. The maximum number of meets is 14. No more than seven of the 14 may be multiple-school meets (involving more than
two teams). Except that a school may schedule double duals or triple duals beyond the maximum of seven multiple-school
meets, BUT a double dual must replace two of the 14 allowed exposures and a triple dual must replace three of the 14
allowed exposures.
Note 1: JV teams may schedule a maximum of 8 multiple school events and may allow inclusion of additional schools
in (JV) dual meets in effort to provide competition opportunity for all JV wrestlers.
Note 2: Conferences which experience low participation numbers at 2 or more conference member schools may apply to
the WIAA to be allowed to modify maximums to include 8 multiple school events and 6 duals. The additional
multiple school event must be held within the conference and involve only the same conference member schools

[HMsDad]

 but I still think to save wrestling from looking more like hockey with co-ops is to reduce the # of weight classes.
[/quote]
What weights would you get rid of?I see a lot of FF at 106 is that to light for High School?

[DocWrestling]

Too many Saturdays also limits our coaching pool because it is a huge committment away from families.  Nobody says you have to do the maximum (other than maybe those parents I mentioned earlier).

We need more leaders than followers.  Losing one Saturday tournament is not going to change those results in February.
Getting some more Friday night 8-man tournaments with 3 match guarantees will go a long way to giving weekends back.
Shortening the season or giving the holidays off may even draw in more wrestlers or coaches.
Combining regionals and sectionals into one weekend also saves a weekend.

The problems with triangulars and such as wrestlers have reduced chances of wrestling at home in front of their fans that may not travel

[DocWrestling]

but I still think to save wrestling from looking more like hockey with co-ops is to reduce the # of weight classes.

What weights would you get rid of?I see a lot of FF at 106 is that to light for High School?
[/quote]

I do think 106 is light for juniors and seniors especially if you take away the growth allowance and require wrestlers to wrestle over 50% of their matches at the weight they want to compete at at regionals.  It is not about eliminating a weight class.  Just spread them out at 110 or something. 

I would set the weight classes and eliminate all growth allowances or extra pounds for consecutive days.  Reward the kids that choose a natural weight class rather than the cutters.  Hope this discussion does not derail the original premise of this thread.  Start a new one.