Cliff Keen tournament

[Barou]

UW placed 12th at Cliff Keen.  Honest question - do you feel that is good?

[benaskren]

Obviously a 12th place finish at CKLV should be considered unacceptable if you want to be a perennial top 10 team. 

That being said I think a lot of posters on this forum have resigned themselves to that not happening and are more than ok with a top 25 each year and getting close to the top 10 once in a while.

Therein lies the disagreement on all of these posts.  Half of the posters see the lack of top 10 finishes as unacceptable the other half have resigned themsleves to that being very unlikely and defend what is happening because they like BD and the badgers are "trying hard"

[bkraus]

Posters keep saying we need to have our voices heard if we want change.  Our voices are heard.  They are heard when 1000 people or less show up to duals.  If fans don't care, why should the athletic department?  That's what I bet they think.  Wrestling is such a niche sport, and honestly I like it that way, but we need to put more butts in the seats for the duals.  I also understand the difficulty of Madison not being close to some of the major hotbeds in wrestling in the state.

[wrastle63]

Obviously a 12th place finish at CKLV should be considered unacceptable if you want to be a perennial top 10 team. 

That being said I think a lot of posters on this forum have resigned themselves to that not happening and are more than ok with a top 25 each year and getting close to the top 10 once in a while.

Therein lies the disagreement on all of these posts.  Half of the posters see the lack of top 10 finishes as unacceptable the other half have resigned themsleves to that being very unlikely and defend what is happening because they like BD and the badgers are "trying hard"

Exactly. I thought the team that went to CKLV wrestled well for what we had, but we should be able to put out a much better product than what we had at 125, 133, and having no HWT! The other weights either placed or were 1 round away I believe, which is alright. With Jiminez(who knows) and Konrath(redshirting) our team is hurting at those classes.

[benaskren]

Wrastle63 you make my point for me.

If you want to be a top 10 team you will need probably 4 All-Americans or maybe 3 AA with lots of bonus.

If you are a low placer at Vegas or close to place you are very much on the outside looking in at NCAAs

After Vegas UW has a guy ranked #7 and a guy ranked#8, they don't have anyone else in the top 19(per flo).  That is good for about 30th place finish as NCAAs.

Is a 30th place finish really that good?

If we are waiting for next year, how high are you expecting that the Badgers finish 10th?  Which 4 are going to make the jump to AA?

[wrastle63]

Wrastle63 you make my point for me.

If you want to be a top 10 team you will need probably 4 All-Americans or maybe 3 AA with lots of bonus.

If you are a low placer at Vegas or close to place you are very much on the outside looking in at NCAAs

After Vegas UW has a guy ranked #7 and a guy ranked#8, they don't have anyone else in the top 19(per flo).  That is good for about 30th place finish as NCAAs.

Is a 30th place finish really that good?

If we are waiting for next year, how high are you expecting that the Badgers finish 10th?  Which 4 are going to make the jump to AA?

Agreed if we have 2 AA this year I would say that is a success for what we have, but that is not something I am happy with. I think the team is improving, but still has gaping holes in a B1G Ten lineup which shouldn't be happening in my opinion.

[Barou]

You're not wrong when you say that 12th at the Cliff Keen is unacceptable for a team that aspires to be Top 10 in the country. If this performance was the baseline or the norm, it would be a bad sign. It's just very disingenuous to just take this year and call it the norm.

First, the roster:

Ethan Rotundo - True Freshman
Jenz Lantz - RS Junior
Eli Stickley - RS Sophomore
Zander Wick - RS Freshman
Andrew Crone - RS Senior
Evan Wick - RS Freshman
Ryan Christensen - RS Junior
Ricky Robertson - RS Senior
Hunter Ritter - RS Sophomore
Ben Stone - RS Sophomore

It's not just that Crone, Christensen, and Robertson are our only college-level upperclassman. We know from open tournaments that we have better options at 125, 133, and 275 on the roster (Jimenez, Konrath, Hillger), and we choose not to use them. With us intentionally opting to use a lessor option at 30% of the weight classes, it's fair to say this isn't a baseline year.

As an example: Penn State. We know they finished 1st in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Did you know that in 2015, they not only didn't win, they finished 6th? You know who they redshirted in 2015? Senior Nico Megaludis, sophomore Zain Retherford, freshman Bo Nickal, and freshman Josh Nolf. All four of those gentleman would go to the finals the very next year, with two winning. Do you think they really couldn't crack the roster in 2015, or do you think the program was taking a down year to line everything up? It happens to the best.

And, even if we were running our best out there, when you graduate 3 starters and nearly all your NCAA points from the year before, there can be pullback.

As another example, did you know that Missouri, after placing in the Top 10 in 3 of 4 years from 2007 to 2010, fell all the way to 19th in 2011 and 26th in 2012. In 2010, they had two All Americans, one in the finals, and they both graduated. Then, shockingly, they got worse the next season. Sounds familiar, no?

I realize that both of those programs are a cut above Wisconsin. I only bring them up to point out that programs take down years, intentionally and cyclically, and that both could describe what this year is for the Badgers.

I think 12th at CK is very much a baseline.  What would their average place be at a tournament that caliber over the last 10-15 years?  Probably wouldn't be much better than 12th.  Off the top I remember them getting 4th at the Navy Classic a couple years ago.  Was that with one of their "solid" teams?

It would be one thing if UW took all the hits in one year (red-shirting ala PSU, etc) and then coming out with a "loaded" lineup the next year but that simply has never happened.

I understand that UW might have been shorthanded with injuries and the Jimenez absence (another program secret) but it looks like the was the story for every program there.

[wrastle63]

You're not wrong when you say that 12th at the Cliff Keen is unacceptable for a team that aspires to be Top 10 in the country. If this performance was the baseline or the norm, it would be a bad sign. It's just very disingenuous to just take this year and call it the norm.

First, the roster:

Ethan Rotundo - True Freshman
Jenz Lantz - RS Junior
Eli Stickley - RS Sophomore
Zander Wick - RS Freshman
Andrew Crone - RS Senior
Evan Wick - RS Freshman
Ryan Christensen - RS Junior
Ricky Robertson - RS Senior
Hunter Ritter - RS Sophomore
Ben Stone - RS Sophomore

It's not just that Crone, Christensen, and Robertson are our only college-level upperclassman. We know from open tournaments that we have better options at 125, 133, and 275 on the roster (Jimenez, Konrath, Hillger), and we choose not to use them. With us intentionally opting to use a lessor option at 30% of the weight classes, it's fair to say this isn't a baseline year.

As an example: Penn State. We know they finished 1st in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Did you know that in 2015, they not only didn't win, they finished 6th? You know who they redshirted in 2015? Senior Nico Megaludis, sophomore Zain Retherford, freshman Bo Nickal, and freshman Josh Nolf. All four of those gentleman would go to the finals the very next year, with two winning. Do you think they really couldn't crack the roster in 2015, or do you think the program was taking a down year to line everything up? It happens to the best.

And, even if we were running our best out there, when you graduate 3 starters and nearly all your NCAA points from the year before, there can be pullback.

As another example, did you know that Missouri, after placing in the Top 10 in 3 of 4 years from 2007 to 2010, fell all the way to 19th in 2011 and 26th in 2012. In 2010, they had two All Americans, one in the finals, and they both graduated. Then, shockingly, they got worse the next season. Sounds familiar, no?

I realize that both of those programs are a cut above Wisconsin. I only bring them up to point out that programs take down years, intentionally and cyclically, and that both could describe what this year is for the Badgers.

I think 12th at CK is very much a baseline.  What would their average place be at a tournament that caliber over the last 10-15 years?  Probably wouldn't be much better than 12th.  Off the top I remember them getting 4th at the Navy Classic a couple years ago.  Was that with one of their "solid" teams?

It would be one thing if UW took all the hits in one year (red-shirting ala PSU, etc) and then coming out with a "loaded" lineup the next year but that simply has never happened.

I understand that UW might have been shorthanded with injuries and the Jimenez absence (another program secret) but it looks like the was the story for every program there.

They did take 2nd last year.

[Barou]

I think it's more than fair to criticize other seasons, and maybe this level is our baseline.

If this is our baseline though, it seems apparent that we have talent to be above that right now, and are waiting for next year to deploy it. This lineup is very obviously not optimized. I don't know Johnny is redshirting, but I do know he was set to redshirt last year. Then, they surprisingly pulled it midyear. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the play this year, to sync up with Konrath & Hillger's redshirt, the Wicks' ascension, and extra development from Stickley, Martin, Christensen, Ritter, and Covaciu.

That was the plan for Jimenez his freshman year too.  They pulled his RS halfway through the season and then he ended up not qualifying for the NCAA tournament.  I thought they wasted a year of 4 possible tournament qualifications.  The supporters disagreed with me.

[AZKing]

Posters keep saying we need to have our voices heard if we want change.  Our voices are heard.  They are heard when 1000 people or less show up to duals.  If fans don't care, why should the athletic department?  That's what I bet they think.  Wrestling is such a niche sport, and honestly I like it that way, but we need to put more butts in the seats for the duals.  I also understand the difficulty of Madison not being close to some of the major hotbeds in wrestling in the state.

Penn State didn't used to sell out every home dual meet... they do now. I wonder why?  ASU has triple if not quadruple the spectators they had in years past. I wonder why?   Barry Davis has never promoted the sport in anyway like he should have. He doesn't recruit Wisconsin kids as he should have as evidenced by Ben's  recent posts. The lack of attendance is a reflection of the leadership of the program. A more engaging coach would be able to draw a much larger crowd and audience to a better prepared spectacle.     For a Wisconsin wrestling program that has produced a fair number of significant wrestlers in its history . . .  Barry has driven out all his impactful assistannts (Matt Bormet, Bart Chelsvig, Terry Steiner, Troy Steiner, etc)  and with the program has to offer now is very disheartening for fans that expect and want more.

[stbird]

You should all be thankful to have a team with talent like the Badgers!  I just got back from the Maryland vs Iowa dual where I have season tickets and it was kind of embarrassing.  Iowa had more fans in attendance than Maryland did.  Iowa is not a particularly strong dual meet team this year with several average wrestlers and Maryland still didn't win a match until Iowa forfeited at heavyweight.  I'm not sure why more people don't support the dual meets.  I certainly would be there if I lived in the state. 

[leg turk]

Really?  You can't figure that out?  You need to get a winning program, and then the fans will come.  They are not going to be a hardcore fanbase, on a AVERAGE team.  Give us a reason to be excited, give us a reason to want to support Wisconsin wrestling!

[stbird]

If you can't get excited about this line up.....

Ethan Rotundo - True Freshman
Jenz Lantz - RS Junior
Eli Stickley - RS Sophomore
Zander Wick - RS Freshman
Andrew Crone - RS Senior
Evan Wick - RS Freshman
Ryan Christensen - RS Junior
Ricky Robertson - RS Senior
Hunter Ritter - RS Sophomore
Ben Stone - RS Sophomore

You are just making excuses!