What do we want for the Badger program?

[Wisconsin Wrestling Fan]

About 12 years ago, I heard they looked into removing the pillars in the wrestling room and adding horizontal beams. The cost would have been $2 million at the time, which it would probably be double that now.

Not a good option. They could carve out a new room in a new facility at a better cost and it would be more impressive for recruiting.

[vsmf2010]

There has been a lot of talk on this string about replacing the coaching staff and maybe rightfully so. I personally do not do that. I never have and doubt I ever will. I did not do it when coach Davis is here, I am not doing it now and I will not do it when the next staff is here. I support the staff on the 1st day and the last day unless they are doing things that are illegal or unethical. I really do not consider recruiting, wins and losses or x's and o's in the equation. I am sure I am in the minority in this regard and I am not saying my way is right just offering a different perspective. As far as the young men on the mat I prefer to have a team of quality character over the best possible wrestlers.

With all that being said I think it is important to acknowledge the progression of a few of the Badger wrestlers this season. There has been a fair amount of talk on the forum about a lack of improvement and it is up to each of you if you want to give credit to the coaches or not. I certainly think they deserve some credit but in general I think coaches receive too much credit and too much criticism. The reality is that most if not all coaches work extraordinarily hard and are very good and the success or lack thereof lies with the athlete.

The progression I am referring to is all based on WS. I know it is not perfect but it is just math and not opinion. All of this might change as the Big Ten season starts but this is where we are at today.

Joey is currently at 19 and has been as high as 16 after starting the preseason at 35. His previous high was 19 in the preseason last year but he spent most of the season in the 30's and finished last year at 47.

Max is currently at 25 after starting the preseason at 57. His previous high was 43. Also he has never qualified for the NCAA's so this season should be a really great way to end his college career.

EB and DJ are just flat out studs and have spent the last 2 years in single digits. Hoping they can finish the year strong and both have career high finishes at the NCAA's.

Lastly wanted to talk about Shane. He is currently 13 after starting the preseason at 154. Granted he was one of the best if not the best D3 184 for the past several seasons. Still what he is doing is pretty incredible. I am not sure where to look to find some comparables. To offer some perspective on how impressive his jump from D3 do D1 is. Max majored the #1 ranked D2 174 at Midlands Scott Joll. Joll spent the last 4 years at West Virginia and was never a qualifier. His overall record against D1 competition in those 4 years was 47-45. He is currently undefeated in D2 competition with and 82.76% bonus %. He was 6-2 at the Midlands all again D1 competition with the loss to Max and a loss to Incontrera from Penn and his best win at Midlands was over the #53 (Northwestern backup). I am so impressed with Shane and I wanted to look at some data to confirm what I am seeing with my eyes.

[Harris]

There has been a lot of talk on this string about replacing the coaching staff and maybe rightfully so. I personally do not do that. I never have and doubt I ever will. I did not do it when coach Davis is here, I am not doing it now and I will not do it when the next staff is here. I support the staff on the 1st day and the last day unless they are doing things that are illegal or unethical. I really do not consider recruiting, wins and losses or x's and o's in the equation. I am sure I am in the minority in this regard and I am not saying my way is right just offering a different perspective. As far as the young men on the mat I prefer to have a team of quality character over the best possible wrestlers.

With all that being said I think it is important to acknowledge the progression of a few of the Badger wrestlers this season. There has been a fair amount of talk on the forum about a lack of improvement and it is up to each of you if you want to give credit to the coaches or not. I certainly think they deserve some credit but in general I think coaches receive too much credit and too much criticism. The reality is that most if not all coaches work extraordinarily hard and are very good and the success or lack thereof lies with the athlete.

The progression I am referring to is all based on WS. I know it is not perfect but it is just math and not opinion. All of this might change as the Big Ten season starts but this is where we are at today.

Joey is currently at 19 and has been as high as 16 after starting the preseason at 35. His previous high was 19 in the preseason last year but he spent most of the season in the 30's and finished last year at 47.

Max is currently at 25 after starting the preseason at 57. His previous high was 43. Also he has never qualified for the NCAA's so this season should be a really great way to end his college career.

EB and DJ are just flat out studs and have spent the last 2 years in single digits. Hoping they can finish the year strong and both have career high finishes at the NCAA's.

Lastly wanted to talk about Shane. He is currently 13 after starting the preseason at 154. Granted he was one of the best if not the best D3 184 for the past several seasons. Still what he is doing is pretty incredible. I am not sure where to look to find some comparables. To offer some perspective on how impressive his jump from D3 do D1 is. Max majored the #1 ranked D2 174 at Midlands Scott Joll. Joll spent the last 4 years at West Virginia and was never a qualifier. His overall record against D1 competition in those 4 years was 47-45. He is currently undefeated in D2 competition with and 82.76% bonus %. He was 6-2 at the Midlands all again D1 competition with the loss to Max and a loss to Incontrera from Penn and his best win at Midlands was over the #53 (Northwestern backup). I am so impressed with Shane and I wanted to look at some data to confirm what I am seeing with my eyes.

Great post

[gwmiller44]

I don't believe in stats, data & rankings. It will all playout in the Big Ten Tourney & NCAA Tourney. I hope they all do well. I would be Impressed if they Qualified 4 guys.

[Wisconsin Wrestling Fan]

We should have 5 Qualifiers for sure - The 5 ranked guys

As of right now, the other 5 face an uphill battle at Big Tens. Rivera has the best shot of those. Hopefully Lettini and Mechler can take the next step.

[Harris]

"I have talked with numerous past RTC athletes and coaches and they have been very honest about what they think happened"

So what do they say happened in these instances?

It is not mine to share publicly.  They are all on social media and have emails.  Ask them why they left and most of them will tell you and some have posted publicly about certain issues if you follow them.  Better yet, if they are an athlete, ask their parents.  Ask the former women's RTC athletes how they felt when they were informed the week of a competition that they were shutting down and they had no where to train and no coaches anymore.  Bono never said a word about the "why".

You are missing my point though.  I want the UW and RTC staff to tell us what happened when big changes happen, not some fan on the internet.  I don't want to hear it through the grapevine.  Address the elephants in the room head on with your fan base and donors.  It goes a long way to build trust and accountability and will lead to more financial support.

I understand things happen at every school and you will always have situations where people come and go for various reasons, but the number of issues have been unusually large over the past 6 years for the RTC and UW.  Think about these changes and the lack of communication/transparency:

Evan Wick (Cal Poly)
Ethan Rotondo (Cal Poly)
Connor Brown (Missouri)
Kyle Burwick (Nebraska)
Austin Gomez (Michigan)
Greyson Clark (Purdue)
James Rowley (Purdue)
Hayden Copass (Purdue)
Ismael Ayoub (Nebraska?)
Laird Root (North Carolina)
Miguel Estrada (Iowa)
Michaela Beck (Iowa HWC)
Erin Golston (TWU)
Ronna Gross (Coaching at UWSP?)
Matt McDonough (Cornell DIII coach in Iowa)
Ben Askren
Sean Smalley (Works with UW ticket office)
Newt Smerchek (Helping out with high school wrestling Monona Grove McFarland, still listed on RTC site)

Who am I missing?  That's quite a list for a five year period of time (18 people, 4 coaches/directors, and closing the women's RTC).  You don't have to be a detective to understand there are issues.  The question is, what are they doing in the future to overcome these types of issues?  I think it starts with transparency and communication.  Everyone knows there are issues, don't just ignore them publicly and let people speculate.  We still haven't heard from Bono what happened with AWA.  That was a big change when they lost Askren but he has taken shots at Bono publicly and Bono has never fought back.  Why?

I understand the coaching staff is limited to what they can share about potential recruits and athletes on the roster but saying nothing about the issues is not working and hurts recruiting. At least give us the main cause of the issue without naming names and the path forward so we have confidence in where we are going.  Many of us are sick of, "next year is the year."  The results speak for themselves and the current staff needs to communicate openly the path forward IMO.  I understand they don't have to share these things, but you can't ask for donations and expect people to give if you are experiencing these types of dramatic changes and don't say anything.  It's just not a good look.  Just the RTC issues alone are huge and we heard nothing.

I love this coaching staff and I want them to succeed but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.  The coaching staff needs to change the way they are doing things if they want to get to the next level.  The coaching staff is made up of World class athletes who are great people.  Taking that next step involves communicating on what happened in the past and providing a realistic plan towards success in the future to build back trust, help with recruiting, and increase financial support.  Doing things the way they have always done them is not working in the new NIL environment of college sports. 

Their social media presence is behind and they need outside help with this.  If they can build the UW and RTC brand, then they add value to potential athletes NIL possibilities similar to what other schools have done.  Right now, UW and the RTC have very little NIL value to a potential athlete and I would argue are actually a detriment.  The exposure is just not there compared to UW's competitors.  Who on the UW or RTC staff has this unique skill set?  All I see is posting about results and upcoming matches.  They need a world class social media expert who can help them build their brand and help with transparency and communication.  Go look at the RTC website and then go look at the Penn State social media presence.  We are talking amateurs trying to compete with professionals.  If you follow this you will know Cael Sanderson hired Justin Basch to help him with this years ago before the success.  Justin doesn't live near Penn State, never went to Penn state, but he did have a successful social media company.  Look at Iowa State.  They have Stalemates supporting them.  Iowa has a huge fan base, Dan Gable and Spencer Lee.  Nebraska is being touted by Willie Saylor all the time.  Penn has Jordan Burroughs and Nebraska had him before.  Missouri has Ben Askren.  Minnesota has Gable plus the Pinnacle club. Michigan has Cliff Keen with a bunch of big names and social media exposure. The list goes on and on. 

I guess I have to add DJ Hamiti to this list.  I sure hope Reader isn't next but it sounds like it may happen.

[WrestlerSB80]

Reader has his bags packed. Probably just looking for the right house in Michigan.

[littleguy301]

Reader has is bags packed. Probably just looking for the right house in Michigan.

Rumor has it Gross is following him to CMU. Just a rumor but one to watch for sure. Bono has alot of work cut out in front of him to rebuild the staff for sure!

[CityGuy]

Transparancey hasn't improved in the slightest. Anyone else see how much WIRTC is spending? Felters dropped some IRS numbers on X. Wish they could bring in someone to clean the RTC up and use the money the collected...

[Healthy and happy]

Transparancey hasn't improved in the slightest. Anyone else see how much WIRTC is spending? Felters dropped some IRS numbers on X. Wish they could bring in someone to clean the RTC up and use the money the collected...

Although I wasnt there, I heard that Coach Bono, with full transparency discussed how the RTC money was being used at the raffle/fund raising event this winter.  I am sure there are more than a few posters here that can confirm this and enlighten us, especially CityGuy.  Clean up the RTC?, a strong negative assumption there my friend

[Healthy and happy]

"I have talked with numerous past RTC athletes and coaches and they have been very honest about what they think happened"

So what do they say happened in these instances?

It is not mine to share publicly.  They are all on social media and have emails.  Ask them why they left and most of them will tell you and some have posted publicly about certain issues if you follow them.  Better yet, if they are an athlete, ask their parents.  Ask the former women's RTC athletes how they felt when they were informed the week of a competition that they were shutting down and they had no where to train and no coaches anymore.  Bono never said a word about the "why".

You are missing my point though.  I want the UW and RTC staff to tell us what happened when big changes happen, not some fan on the internet.  I don't want to hear it through the grapevine.  Address the elephants in the room head on with your fan base and donors.  It goes a long way to build trust and accountability and will lead to more financial support.

I understand things happen at every school and you will always have situations where people come and go for various reasons, but the number of issues have been unusually large over the past 6 years for the RTC and UW.  Think about these changes and the lack of communication/transparency:

Evan Wick (Cal Poly)
Ethan Rotondo (Cal Poly)
Connor Brown (Missouri)
Kyle Burwick (Nebraska)
Austin Gomez (Michigan)
Greyson Clark (Purdue)
James Rowley (Purdue)
Hayden Copass (Purdue)
Ismael Ayoub (Nebraska?)
Laird Root (North Carolina)
Miguel Estrada (Iowa)
Michaela Beck (Iowa HWC)
Erin Golston (TWU)
Ronna Gross (Coaching at UWSP?)
Matt McDonough (Cornell DIII coach in Iowa)
Ben Askren
Sean Smalley (Works with UW ticket office)
Newt Smerchek (Helping out with high school wrestling Monona Grove McFarland, still listed on RTC site)

Who am I missing?  That's quite a list for a five year period of time (18 people, 4 coaches/directors, and closing the women's RTC).  You don't have to be a detective to understand there are issues.  The question is, what are they doing in the future to overcome these types of issues?  I think it starts with transparency and communication.  Everyone knows there are issues, don't just ignore them publicly and let people speculate.  We still haven't heard from Bono what happened with AWA.  That was a big change when they lost Askren but he has taken shots at Bono publicly and Bono has never fought back.  Why?

I understand the coaching staff is limited to what they can share about potential recruits and athletes on the roster but saying nothing about the issues is not working and hurts recruiting. At least give us the main cause of the issue without naming names and the path forward so we have confidence in where we are going.  Many of us are sick of, "next year is the year."  The results speak for themselves and the current staff needs to communicate openly the path forward IMO.  I understand they don't have to share these things, but you can't ask for donations and expect people to give if you are experiencing these types of dramatic changes and don't say anything.  It's just not a good look.  Just the RTC issues alone are huge and we heard nothing.

I love this coaching staff and I want them to succeed but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.  The coaching staff needs to change the way they are doing things if they want to get to the next level.  The coaching staff is made up of World class athletes who are great people.  Taking that next step involves communicating on what happened in the past and providing a realistic plan towards success in the future to build back trust, help with recruiting, and increase financial support.  Doing things the way they have always done them is not working in the new NIL environment of college sports. 

Their social media presence is behind and they need outside help with this.  If they can build the UW and RTC brand, then they add value to potential athletes NIL possibilities similar to what other schools have done.  Right now, UW and the RTC have very little NIL value to a potential athlete and I would argue are actually a detriment.  The exposure is just not there compared to UW's competitors.  Who on the UW or RTC staff has this unique skill set?  All I see is posting about results and upcoming matches.  They need a world class social media expert who can help them build their brand and help with transparency and communication.  Go look at the RTC website and then go look at the Penn State social media presence.  We are talking amateurs trying to compete with professionals.  If you follow this you will know Cael Sanderson hired Justin Basch to help him with this years ago before the success.  Justin doesn't live near Penn State, never went to Penn state, but he did have a successful social media company.  Look at Iowa State.  They have Stalemates supporting them.  Iowa has a huge fan base, Dan Gable and Spencer Lee.  Nebraska is being touted by Willie Saylor all the time.  Penn has Jordan Burroughs and Nebraska had him before.  Missouri has Ben Askren.  Minnesota has Gable plus the Pinnacle club. Michigan has Cliff Keen with a bunch of big names and social media exposure. The list goes on and on. 

Where does one start to unpack everything in this post?

The world of college athletics has significantly changed over the last 5 years.  The advent of the transfer portal with the lack of restrictions, how easy it is to use, the allure of money along the the compulsiveness, the inability to handle tough coaching and the often fleeting commitment of today's college athletes leads to this increase in roster turnover.  This is real and happening across the college landscape, not just with UW wrestling. It is routinely all over the various sports media platforms, so I am not sure now you can suggest this is a problem with the UW wrestling program

Look at the abundance of basketball transfers going on right now  A top 10 program at Iowa State just had like 4 or 5 guys enter the portal.  Coach Gard just lost a similar number.  You have multiple guys nationwide, including AJ Storr who will be at his third school in 3 years. Never saw that 5 years ago.  Look how many Minnesota wrestling has lost in he past year.  Isnt there 3-4 guys from Missouri in the portal right now?

Also with coaching turnover, there is nearly always roster turnover.  How about all the guys Alabama lost with Saban retiring.  The UW football program has lost about 20 guys per year over the past two years and replaced them with transfers.

As far as staff members, there is a constant and general turnover in Athletics.  Maybe these staff members left for a better job or more money or less hours/stress or for job performance or there was a conflict with the head coach.  Who knows but you cant automatically assume it was the Head Coach.  I believe UW football lost 3-4 coaches after one year for various reasons

Not looking or understanding the bigger picture and being a little naive may lead one to the conclusion that there is a coaching problem.  Can there be a conflict with the athlete and coach and lead to them leaving, sure it happens routinely at all levels of competition but I just dont see it as a wide spread problem with the UW wrestling program

[CityGuy]

Thanks for the response Healthy and Happy, I also dig the name. I was not at the fundraiser event, so I did not hear how the donations are being used. I was once a donor, but do not donate anymore due to lack of information. I have been to the Wisconsin RTC, Badger and senior level events, follow all social media platforms, apps, subscriptions etc... If I couldn't access the data, it is way to hard to find for the common man. The RTC is a mess. The way they handled the females, coaching/staff turnover, athlete turnover, I would say a clean up is in order. We need a director like they have in Philly to generate some intrest and keep people updated.So I agree my take is negative, but I disagree it is an assumption. I have data to back it up and other RTCs growing in different ways. Success can be replicated, why not at WI?

[asdf]

Take the teams that have much less University and RTC support that are doing better then UW and combine with the fact the UW is actually competitive financially and I do think it is appropriate for CityGuy (and others) to question the direction the Badgers are going.

It would be great if someone did shed some light on what Bono discussed regarding the RTC.  I did see someone ask him that exact question on a twitter awhile back and his response was something to the effect of "just working on getting better every day"

Felters on Twitter put out some very interesting info and it is factual. You can reference all non-profits info easily online.  Wisconsin RTC can be found here: 

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/264186757

Financially, Wisconsin compares well both from support from the university and its from it donations thru the RTC.  Clearly we are not PSU/IA/Ohio State level (no one is), but overall the combined University and RTC does get alot better support compared to other WRESTLING teams. 

Wisconsin RTC is top 15 in revenue.  It is even higher support seeing many of the RTC's above WI are supporting multiple schools (Penn and NYC RTC), youth and non profits like Beat the Streets, multiple senior level wrestlers (all of them), multiple coaches, those that compensate for no scholarships (Fingers lakes RTC), on and on.

For example--Nebraska RTC brought in just $30,000/year more then WI the past 3 years yet has Burroughs, James Green, and Bryan Synder as coaches along with Multiple Senior World team athletes.

Not trying to stir up a hornets nest but the only thing that frustrates me more then the "the academic standards are too high" excuse is the "UW and the fans don't open their wallets enough" excuse.

Finally, per the tax filings...for those questioning...the money is NOT being spent on NIL (just $23,500 in 2022, none prior).  Most expenses are "Contract services" whatever that is.

[Healthy and happy]

Thanks for the response Healthy and Happy, I also dig the name. I was not at the fundraiser event, so I did not hear how the donations are being used. I was once a donor, but do not donate anymore due to lack of information. I have been to the Wisconsin RTC, Badger and senior level events, follow all social media platforms, apps, subscriptions etc... If I couldn't access the data, it is way to hard to find for the common man. The RTC is a mess. The way they handled the females, coaching/staff turnover, athlete turnover, I would say a clean up is in order. We need a director like they have in Philly to generate some intrest and keep people updated.So I agree my take is negative, but I disagree it is an assumption. I have data to back it up and other RTCs growing in different ways. Success can be replicated, why not at WI?

I still need help understanding the "clean up" need.  I am pretty sure the three females were being paid but there was no direct benefit as training partners.  So if money is an issue (which it appears to be), it sounds like a poor allocation of funds. The staff probably needed the funds to keep their own guys.

As far as I know, there has only been coach to leave in 5 years, that actually pretty good stability.  From the staff position, do you know why they left?  Or is it easy to just blame the Head Coach?  My guess, based on funding, that position probably didn't pay well and might be hard to live in Madison on.
 
The athlete turnover is very average in the current transfer portal age.  There are many school/teams that have a much much higher athlete turnover.  How about Minnesota over the past year?

The stats seem to show that the RTC funding and budget rankings pretty much match the national wrestling team rankings.  UW wrestling has some very good donors but it appears, compared to the top programs, just not enough of them. The reality is that money talks!!

[CityGuy]

In your first statement I'm not sure what you mean by "no direct benefit as training partners". I don't know the full story on the ladies(it was never shared publicly), but I heard that women were left coach less and with no place to train right before a major competition. A person addressing the public on this issue would help the clean up I'm asking for. I've reached out on Badger Den, but tried to keep it light during the season.

I do not know why staff leaves, it is probably a plethora of reasons. When your the head coach your name is on the line so it is easy to lay blame there and part of the job. In fact who is the Head Coach of RTC? I have saw Ben Askren in the past, Evan Wick and maybe Newton S? So I'm not sure who to lay the blame on there. I used to get emails from Sean and he left with no explanation. I also never heard the coaching changes addressed publicly. Again transparency will help clean this up.

Minnesota was hit brutally and recovered gracefully all things considered. I am not worried about transfer portal collegiate guys in my posts, I am addressing the failing RTC. Not a diehard Badger fan, but I would love a quality RTC in the state. I'm worried about the Senior Level competitors we can't retain. Wick, Hilger, Moran etc..

Money does talk, but Cuba won a lot of world medals in facilities worse than my MPS school. We need a solid director and someone who can attract and retain talent. Without those things we still fail with an unlimited budget imo.

When I give money to something I need 100% transparency on where funds go and how they are utilized. That is why I happily support Beat The Streets Chicago and The Milwaukee Wrestling Association. The clean up I'm looking for would be turning this rag tag non profit into a legitimate RTC with board of directors and head coach. I would be happy to support when the right people get on the bus. Hoping they appear or are recruited soon.

On Wisconsin