Just verifying the WIAA rule with 14 competitions prior to regionals in order to be eligible to compete. Is this 14 separate competitions per athlete, or 14 varsity competitions by team?
14 total competitions per athlete
Does this mean 14 matches before regionals?
Quote from: thequad on February 08, 2022, 01:42:03 PM
Does this mean 14 matches before regionals?
Yes. Would it be 14 competitions per team, or is it by wrestler?
Quote from: thequad on February 08, 2022, 01:42:03 PM
Does this mean 14 matches before regionals?
What do you think the answer to this question is?? ;)
Quote from: 3Timer on February 08, 2022, 01:49:05 PM
Quote from: thequad on February 08, 2022, 01:42:03 PM
Does this mean 14 matches before regionals?
Yes. Would it be 14 competitions per team, or is it by wrestler?
By wrestler, silly ones.
The rule is actually quite simple....
14 Events for your team. Each level your program offers cannot exceed 14 events for the year.
No more than 14 Varsity events.
No more than 14 JV events.
No more than 14 Girl's events.
Quote from: acdc on February 08, 2022, 02:54:19 PM
The rule is actually quite simple....
14 Events for your team. Each level your program offers cannot exceed 14 events for the year.
No more than 14 Varsity events.
No more than 14 JV events.
No more than 14 Girl's events.
Could be interesting if that is indeed the rule for a few teams before regionals.
Doesn't the entire state tournament series count as one of the events?
My understanding is that a team could enter 20 events but any one wrestler can only compete in 14 of them
Sounds like someone is on the verge of reporting a team to the WIAA for too many competitions
2021-2022 WIAA rule:
a. The maximum number of meets is 14. Schedules of all teams should be clearly published and separated by level for each team sponsored
by a school.
b. Conference tournaments must be included in count of regular season maximums.
c. A female wrestler may participate in "female - only" meets, counting as one of her individual 14 exposures but not counting toward the
team total.
Btw, wiaa rules also state that the state tournament series does not count as one of the 14 meets.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 08, 2022, 03:10:57 PM
Doesn't the entire state tournament series count as one of the events?
My understanding is that a team could enter 20 events but any one wrestler can only compete in 14 of them
You could have 14 events and 50 or less matches before regionals.
Quote from: padre on February 08, 2022, 06:37:35 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 08, 2022, 03:10:57 PM
Doesn't the entire state tournament series count as one of the events?
My understanding is that a team could enter 20 events but any one wrestler can only compete in 14 of them
You could have 14 events and 50 or less matches before regionals.
Yes, this is the rule. 14 events and 50 or less matches before regionals per wrestler! There is also a 14 event limit for the team at each level, again before regionals. If you are worried a wrestler is over the event or match limit, the easiest way to check is by going to the team on track, go to the matches tab and select the wrestler you want to check. You should be able to see and count the different events on the left if everything on track is accurate.
Quote from: 3Timer on February 08, 2022, 02:59:18 PM
Quote from: acdc on February 08, 2022, 02:54:19 PM
The rule is actually quite simple....
14 Events for your team. Each level your program offers cannot exceed 14 events for the year.
No more than 14 Varsity events.
No more than 14 JV events.
No more than 14 Girl's events.
Could be interesting if that is indeed the rule for a few teams before regionals.
Seems to be some "gray area" here since many teams schedule their varsity reserves at varsity tournaments and then send some otherwise varsity kids if they missed a tournament earlier in the year.
I think this is why it really is about 14 events and 50 matches for each wrestler.
A team could schedule 14 varsity events and 14 varsity reserve events an 14 JV events. That is 42 events that they could then pick and choose which 14 each wrestler competes in.
I think this is a rule that is pretty basic but has some twists. According to the rules it states "The maximum number of meets is 14. Schedules of all teams should be clearly published and separated by level for each team sponsored by a school"
Also states "A student may not participate in more than 14 meets, and may not exceed 50 matches during the regular season"
As I understand it this implies there can be scheduled 14 varsity, 14 JV and 14 female only meets scheduled as a team. But an individual can compete in any combination of these events as long as the total isn't more than 14 meets and they do not exceed 50 matches. For example a female athlete could compete in 4 female only meets, 6 JV meets and 4 varsity meets and that is fine because they did not exceed the 14 meet rule.
Also...I am not sure about the 14 meet rule as a team. I have seen schools schedule 2 tournaments on the same day and send half the varsity team to one tournament and half to another tournament filling in weight classes with JV kids.
Doc...I don't think there is a varsity reserve designation. I believe "Varsity Reserve" is simply another term for JV...I do not believe there is a different criteria for varsity reserve or JV.
The rule makes some kind of sense if we consider a kid could wrestle 120 varsity for the Hornets all year. Suddenly mid January the 126 varsity kid drops to 120 and wins the varsity spot. And the 132 lb kid drops to 126. Now the former 120 lb kid can't drop to 113 because he didn't skinfold that low. He has no spot going up because everyone has dropped a weight class except the HWT. Now it is the end of the season and former 120 lb should sit on the bench? Nope...let him wrestle at some "JV" tournaments to wrap up his season.
The 14 meet team rule is basically pointless...and to some extent varsity and JV designation is kind of meaningless. Kids can compete in 14 meets and no more then 50 matches.
But that is my take on it.
Quote from: 3Timer on February 08, 2022, 02:59:18 PM
Quote from: acdc on February 08, 2022, 02:54:19 PM
The rule is actually quite simple....
14 Events for your team. Each level your program offers cannot exceed 14 events for the year.
No more than 14 Varsity events.
No more than 14 JV events.
No more than 14 Girl's events.
Could be interesting if that is indeed the rule for a few teams before regionals.
Make sure you are looking at the dates of the competition on the Trackwrestling schedule. Depending on how it's listed on the schedule, some duals could be considered 1 event but the results are displayed like it was multiple.
This is what everyone needs to understand...
** Wrestling is a sport that often has athletes switching levels (JV to varsity and vice versa). We as a sport want this to always be possible with weight class changes, wrestle offs, etc.
** Teams can have 4 Levels of wrestling -- Varsity, Varsity Reserve, JV, and Girls -- Each of these can have up to 14 (no more than 14) events on the schedule. This must be clearly labeled which level is which
** Coaches and AD's are responsible to monitor their schedules and athletes (no more than 14 events can be scheduled for a particular level -- No more than 14 events can be participated in before regionals by any one athlete!
** The WWCA pushed to get rid of the 7 duals / 7 multi team events to create flexibility for programs to help build the sport. This rule change went from 7 duals / 7 multi team events to 14 total events with a 50 match maximum heading into regionals. The rule was intended for programs to do what was in the best interest of their program to help build and promote the sport. For example, a team with many forfeits doesn't want 7 duals until they can build their numbers. Some coaches might want to free up a few Saturdays for kids by adding tris or quads Friday nights. Some coaches might try to get their duals completed in tris or quad formats to limit total number of weigh ins for athletes or provide more JV opportunities in a night of wrestling. There are lots of reasons why this rule could potentially improve our sport.
** The WIAA enforces the rules that are made -- They are not in the business of trying to find ways to make kids ineligible. Coaches and ADs ultimately need to send appropriate athletes to their events based on their level (JV, Varsity, VR, Girls). This is an integrity thing so our sport can grow.
** A team could list events as Varsity Reserve or JV and use Varsity athletes without penalty from the WIAA (again the WIAA is not supposed to determine who is varsity, VR, or JV). They are supposed to determine that schools don't have more than 14 events at any one level. If a coach / AD is sending Varsity athletes to sub varsity competitions, that is a moral / ethical flaw and technically wouldn't be addressed by the WIAA (because our rules allow athletes to flow back and forth from varsity to JV at the coach's discretion)
** If teams are using sub varsity competitions for Varsity athletes, the WIAA and or WWCA will be forced to make rules that once again take away a program's flexibility to make wrestling better. A few bad eggs can ruin it for everyone!
** Currently the WWCA and WIAA tried to give coaches tools to promote the sport and build numbers with the 14 event 50 match count. If programs and coaches are abusing it by mislabeling events to manipulate their schedule, then member schools should be calling out the ethics of these coaches / ADs. Ultimately these selfish choices will bring a black eye to their programs, our sport, and remove the intent of the rules to help grow and promote our sport!
** Remember athletes / fan bases do not have control over where people are sent to wrestle. This falls on the shoulders of coaches. Being mad at an athlete or fan base for actions of a coach is also counter productive.
** I am writing this to educate people so conversations can be had to ensure we are all doing our part to keep wrestling great. Calling for WIAA to punish athletes is not the answer. Athletes just show up and wrestle wherever their coach tells them to compete.
** Hopefully any programs who may have violated the intent of the rules did so unknowingly. We have all misunderstood things and made choices in good intention only to find out after the fact those choices looked bad in the eyes of others. Let's educate programs and coaches so the WWCA can continue to improve rules for our sport.
Personally as future president of the WWCA I have many things I would like to address in the near future rather than making rules to prevent coaches from being unethical. In my opinion ethics should be an expectation and we all have a part in that process. Here are a few more impactful decisions I would like to explore:
** Post Season Qualifying Events and Procedures (lots of possibilities here but let's not flood this thread with these possibilities)
** Weight Decent (at least explore other options states use that still comply with NFHS)
** Unifying seasons outside of HS (youth, middle school, Greco, FS)
** Educate coaches / programs on ways to promote wrestling within our state
** Grow numbers in HS wrestling
Thanks for reading.
Jason Lulloff
Not 100% on this, but I was under the impression that each team gets events at each level as stated above. One could have more varsity meets if they had a school designated "Varsity Reserve Team." I'm not sure how many schools actually have a school sanctioned varsity reserve.
My example is from years ago but I don't think this has changed, please correct me if I am wrong. I had my schedule set for the year but due to injuries and missing tournaments I had kids that didn't have 14 meets. There was a tournament toward the end of the year that was looking for a team. I contacted them and said I could throw together a varsity reserve team and bring them. I contacted the WIAA just to make sure and was told that unless I had a school sponsored varsity reserve (approved by our school) I would be in violation of the 14 contacts rule.
It was in place to keep really good teams from splitting their rosters and getting 28 contacts in at the varsity level. It would be on par of a football team playing two varsity schedules then bringing the team back together during the playoffs. Like I said maybe the rule changed, but I'd hate to see a kid get screwed because their team scheduled to many varsity meets from not understanding the rule.
Please someone in the know clarify this. Can a team send teams to multiple varsity events throughout the year or is it tracked by the individual wrestler???????
Quote from: Coach Lu on February 10, 2022, 08:57:34 AM
This is what everyone needs to understand...
** Wrestling is a sport that often has athletes switching levels (JV to varsity and vice versa). We as a sport want this to always be possible with weight class changes, wrestle offs, etc.
** Teams can have 4 Levels of wrestling -- Varsity, Varsity Reserve, JV, and Girls -- Each of these can have up to 14 (no more than 14) events on the schedule. This must be clearly labeled which level is which
** Coaches and AD's are responsible to monitor their schedules and athletes (no more than 14 events can be scheduled for a particular level -- No more than 14 events can be participated in before regionals by any one athlete!
** The WWCA pushed to get rid of the 7 duals / 7 multi team events to create flexibility for programs to help build the sport. This rule change went from 7 duals / 7 multi team events to 14 total events with a 50 match maximum heading into regionals. The rule was intended for programs to do what was in the best interest of their program to help build and promote the sport. For example, a team with many forfeits doesn't want 7 duals until they can build their numbers. Some coaches might want to free up a few Saturdays for kids by adding tris or quads Friday nights. Some coaches might try to get their duals completed in tris or quad formats to limit total number of weigh ins for athletes or provide more JV opportunities in a night of wrestling. There are lots of reasons why this rule could potentially improve our sport.
** The WIAA enforces the rules that are made -- They are not in the business of trying to find ways to make kids ineligible. Coaches and ADs ultimately need to send appropriate athletes to their events based on their level (JV, Varsity, VR, Girls). This is an integrity thing so our sport can grow.
** A team could list events as Varsity Reserve or JV and use Varsity athletes without penalty from the WIAA (again the WIAA is not supposed to determine who is varsity, VR, or JV). They are supposed to determine that schools don't have more than 14 events at any one level. If a coach / AD is sending Varsity athletes to sub varsity competitions, that is a moral / ethical flaw and technically wouldn't be addressed by the WIAA (because our rules allow athletes to flow back and forth from varsity to JV at the coach's discretion)
** If teams are using sub varsity competitions for Varsity athletes, the WIAA and or WWCA will be forced to make rules that once again take away a program's flexibility to make wrestling better. A few bad eggs can ruin it for everyone!
** Currently the WWCA and WIAA tried to give coaches tools to promote the sport and build numbers with the 14 event 50 match count. If programs and coaches are abusing it by mislabeling events to manipulate their schedule, then member schools should be calling out the ethics of these coaches / ADs. Ultimately these selfish choices will bring a black eye to their programs, our sport, and remove the intent of the rules to help grow and promote our sport!
** Remember athletes / fan bases do not have control over where people are sent to wrestle. This falls on the shoulders of coaches. Being mad at an athlete or fan base for actions of a coach is also counter productive.
** I am writing this to educate people so conversations can be had to ensure we are all doing our part to keep wrestling great. Calling for WIAA to punish athletes is not the answer. Athletes just show up and wrestle wherever their coach tells them to compete.
** Hopefully any programs who may have violated the intent of the rules did so unknowingly. We have all misunderstood things and made choices in good intention only to find out after the fact those choices looked bad in the eyes of others. Let's educate programs and coaches so the WWCA can continue to improve rules for our sport.
Personally as future president of the WWCA I have many things I would like to address in the near future rather than making rules to prevent coaches from being unethical. In my opinion ethics should be an expectation and we all have a part in that process. Here are few more impactful decisions I would like to explore:
** Post Season Qualifying Events and Procedures (lots of possibilities here but let's not flood this thread with these possibilities)
** Weight Decent (at least explore other options states use that still comply with NFHS)
** Unifying seasons outside of HS (youth, middle school, Greco, FS)
** Educate coaches / programs on ways to promote wrestling within our state
** Grow numbers in HS wrestling
Thanks for reading.
Jason Lulloff
Great stuff!
Great stuff, Coach Lu!
All this for trying to get some kids eliminated out of regionals... it is a bit ridiculous
I've gotten a lot of the information on this and at the end of the day there is nothing illegal with what is being done. Some can find it unethical if they want but it's a strategy. Coaches know guys/girls are going to miss meets throughout the year and this is a safe guard to get those kids solid matches.
I guess I'm not sure if it can be counted on their varsity record or not as now that there is seeding at state that could become a factor.
TBH, all of this notoriety just gives other coaches the idea to do the same thing which is fine. Having a JV team wrestling at a tournament listed on JV regionals weekend is odd no doubt. We as coaches don't need more rules applied....keep your athletes at 14 events and 50 or under matches...where they get them who cares!!
After reading all of these posts I do not agree with the excuses of making sure that every varsity wrestler gets quality matches, and we all know a lot of wrestlers will not be able to wrestle every event. You can all dance around the elephant in the room about the school who did this. They scheduled a JV tournament, which was a varsity tournament they scheduled as a JV tournament, the same weekend as JV state, They had most of their Varsitity kids wrestle this tournament which included most of their wrestlers who are ranked in the state..I am sorry but the coaches and AD need to be held accountable because they decided to do this knowing what they were doing!!! I really dislike the idea of punishing the wrestlers for this. They go where their coach tells them to. Please stop making excuses for them and trying to say there is grey area on this subject. Each wrestler is allotted 14 events. The coaches and AD know this. They tried to pull a fast one to get their kids more matches thus possibly a better seed going into state. When this happened several years ago, it was the kids that were penalized.. I say penalize the coaches and AD. Ban the coaches from post season and I am sure there is something fitting for the AD as well.
Quote from: Fatguyrolls on February 11, 2022, 09:34:07 PM
After reading all of these posts I do not agree with the excuses of making sure that every varsity wrestler gets quality matches, and we all know a lot of wrestlers will not be able to wrestle every event. You can all dance around the elephant in the room about the school who did this. They scheduled a JV tournament, which was a varsity tournament they scheduled as a JV tournament, the same weekend as JV state, They had most of their Varsitity kids wrestle this tournament which included most of their wrestlers who are ranked in the state..I am sorry but the coaches and AD need to be held accountable because they decided to do this knowing what they were doing!!! I really dislike the idea of punishing the wrestlers for this. They go where their coach tells them to. Please stop making excuses for them and trying to say there is grey area on this subject. Each wrestler is allotted 14 events. The coaches and AD know this. They tried to pull a fast one to get their kids more matches thus possibly a better seed going into state. When this happened several years ago, it was the kids that were penalized.. I say penalize the coaches and AD. Ban the coaches from post season and I am sure there is something fitting for the AD as well.
Your sentence that says "each wrestler is allotted 14 events" is exactly true and completely takes any wrong doing off of everyone. You can go one step further and add the 50 match maximum, them together is the rules.
Quote from: Fatguyrolls on February 11, 2022, 09:34:07 PM
After reading all of these posts I do not agree with the excuses of making sure that every varsity wrestler gets quality matches, and we all know a lot of wrestlers will not be able to wrestle every event. You can all dance around the elephant in the room about the school who did this. They scheduled a JV tournament, which was a varsity tournament they scheduled as a JV tournament, the same weekend as JV state, They had most of their Varsitity kids wrestle this tournament which included most of their wrestlers who are ranked in the state..I am sorry but the coaches and AD need to be held accountable because they decided to do this knowing what they were doing!!! I really dislike the idea of punishing the wrestlers for this. They go where their coach tells them to. Please stop making excuses for them and trying to say there is grey area on this subject. Each wrestler is allotted 14 events. The coaches and AD know this. They tried to pull a fast one to get their kids more matches thus possibly a better seed going into state. When this happened several years ago, it was the kids that were penalized.. I say penalize the coaches and AD. Ban the coaches from post season and I am sure there is something fitting for the AD as well.
You are absolutely correct..."Each wrestler is allotted 14 events". Nobody on the team exceeded the 14 event rule AND if they wrestled as JV the matches do not count towards their varsity record so they should not factor in to state seeding. I would also say you are right that the coach and AD knew what they were doing. Nothing fast about this at all. It has been done for years. Nothing new. Don't like it? Then calls to your coach, AD and the WIAA would be the place to get the rule to change.
So lost.
Some school sent their entire varsity to a tournament disguised as a JV tournament on the schedule?
I'm gonna assume it's a "blue blood" school, because if it was a middle of the road school they'd just be named.
Sent part of the team, including some ranked wrestlers, to a varsity tournament but listed it as JV on their schedule. Ranked team in D1, not sure why they can't be named but I'll follow suit.
Some tournaments run a varsity and JV tournament the same day at the same time.
The host school would determine the divisions (varsity/JV, Girls) not each team.
Is the grey area "varsity reserve". Are you allowed to schedule a varsity and varsity reserve team the same day to different events and count it as 1 of 14?
Sounds like this may cause issues with state seeding. How can a match be JV (as a team) if the other wrestler's team rightly wrestles a Varsity match. That is going to be a common opponent for some guys. How would TrackWrestling know?
Sounds like DePere 2017 all over again. Might be a shakeup at some sectional this weekend.
Quote from: Ghetto on February 13, 2022, 06:45:03 PM
So lost.
Some school sent their entire varsity to a tournament disguised as a JV tournament on the schedule?
I'm gonna assume it's a "blue blood" school, because if it was a middle of the road school they'd just be named.
I'm with you, not sure who they are talking about
Couple things...the school has been named on several social media posts. I think this forum does it's best to not name athletes or schools so maybe that is why it has not been named. But the "story" is very much out there on social media. Just go on one of the facebook pages that deals with Wisconsin wrestling and it will show up.
I don't think this is the same as DePere. This case is what would be considered varsity level wrestlers, some of who are ranked, wrestled at a varsity level tournament but listed as a JV team. From what I can determine, none of the athletes exceeded their 14 meets/50 match limit. The school had scheduled this particular meet as a JV meet. But (IMO) the competition at this tournament, from all schools at the event, was clearly varsity caliber not JV caliber.
What is the issue if you send a varsity wrestler to a varsity meet even if the team
Is considered JV?
Maybe he was dinged up or out with covid and missed the East River john smith invitational but now has a meet to use.
The team had it on their master schedule likely at the beginning of the year but if they added it so what.
Heck, I know Freedom split their squad at the beginning of the year between Kimberly and Little Chute. There is nothing wrong with it. Seems like people are looking for a problem. I believe De Pere was an AD issue with just too many events that the kinds went to.
Matches are consider3d varsity if one of the opponents has it on their schedule as varsity. As long as kids did not exceed their 14 competition limit they are good and can count the marches as varsity.
From my understanding that is where the varsity reserves roster comes in. You can make 3 schedules and with a combo your wrestler cannot exceed 14 but if you make a schedule of 14 events for all 3 levels your team could have 42 events but the wrestlers cannt exceed 14 events on all.levels.
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 14, 2022, 05:43:30 PM
From my understanding that is where the varsity reserves roster comes in. You can make 3 schedules and with a combo your wrestler cannot exceed 14 but if you make a schedule of 14 events for all 3 levels your team could have 42 events but the wrestlers cannt exceed 14 events on all.levels.
Exactly. I know my son did it more than once. We wrestled in the sturgeon bay meet. He was banged up to go in the cheesehead and st bay was a great competition, with Varsity teams.
People are way to hung up on stupid little things. Who cares if it was on their schedule as Varsity, varsity reserve, or JV. Especially since they wrestled other teams varsity wrestlers.
Next year they might be more clear and call it varsity reserve. Would be people be less upset.
I have spent a lot of time on this site saying wrestling is a team sport and everyone tells me it is an individual sport so focus on the individual wrestlers getting their 14 events. Who cares what it is labeled on a schedule by an AD or coach!
Would it be any better if they just had the 50 match limit and who cares about events? Sure seems easier.
I do think the WIAA might need to give some guidance on what constitutes a varsity match in terms of regional and state seeding.
From what I have been able to gather:
A ranked D1 school sent several of its varsity wrestlers, including several ranked wrestlers to a Varsity Invite that was listed on the D1 schools JV schedule. From what I understand the school did not violet the 14 event rule at any level, and no wrestler competed in more than 14 events or 50 matches before regionals.
Some people seem to take issue with the school sending members of its varsity squad to an event that was on the school's JV schedule. This should be a non issue, because as I understand it, no rules were violated, and the event attended was a varsity level event.