Wautoma/Wild Rose coaches

bman · February 23, 2015, 01:43:39 PM

I fail to see how some think this may incentivize a kid to initiate a slam. The rule is still in place to protect wrestlers, and the rule still exists to dq an individual if a wrestler can't continue after a slam. In this case, the opposing coaches made a judgment that the slam was unintentional, and there was no reason to create a bye in the next round. I applaud the coaches for their judgment and gesture. How this serves as a bad example or may cause kids to slam to advance is an absurd conclusion.

Ty Clark · February 23, 2015, 02:24:43 PM

Quote from: bman on February 23, 2015, 01:43:39 PMI fail to see how some think this may incentivize a kid to initiate a slam. The rule is still in place to protect wrestlers, and the rule still exists to dq an individual if a wrestler can't continue after a slam. In this case, the opposing coaches made a judgment that the slam was unintentional, and there was no reason to create a bye in the next round. I applaud the coaches for their judgment and gesture. How this serves as a bad example or may cause kids to slam to advance is an absurd conclusion.

I agree with the coaches' judgement and gesture, and I would think most of us coaches would do the same thing given the particular circumstances. I'll repeat: THE GESTURE IS GREAT. However, the official cemented his judgement when he called the slam, and it is not his prerogative to determine when rules are to be enforced and when they are not. I hope that one day we come up with a robot/computer program/android to officiate matches, because I would be all for absolute consistency even in the rules with which I don't agree. Until then, we can only hope that our referees act without emotion and don't use judgement in non-judgement situations (black and white rules).

Aaaannnyhooowww... I am just Monday morning quarterbacking and playing devil's advocate. Sometimes I argue about things I don't really have a strong opinion on either way (and this is one of them) just to keep my mind occupied on something other than the work I'm supposed to be getting done. You guys are taking this one too much to heart though, so I'm going to just leave it alone. I know I would be irate if the official wouldn't let my kid accept the "illegal" win.

yaknowwhatimean? · February 23, 2015, 02:32:09 PM

I have seen it both ways. The most egregious and offensive team victory I have ever seen happened as a result. Crosstown rivals (St. Cloud Apollo vs. Tech) were in the last match of dual. Kid gets slammed right before he gets teched (no pun intended). Does not continue. Victory to Apollo. First win over Tech in like, 20 years or something like that. I honestly believe that is the reason the coach took the default. Emotions got the best of him. Would like to believe 99 out of 100 times he makes his kid line up for the next whistle, then inj def after restart. Not a quality win in my book, but those are the rules. Situation most likely dictates how slams are handled. A safe return is always your best bet.

yaknowwhatimean? · February 23, 2015, 02:40:10 PM

On that note, does the head trainer have final say? If the wrestler/coach tell the trainer to mow grass who is gonna stop them? As a competitor, I would not let my tourney be decided by someone other than a respected physician. I guess the Depies situation should answer my question. I would personally love to leave it up to the athlete. If they can compete why not let them until physically unable? I'm a neanderthal, I know.

hammer · February 23, 2015, 03:32:56 PM

I think trainers have the final say on many things at a match or event which in itself can be a serious question also.

If this was deemed as an accidental slam by coaches and the athlete then what the coaches did was commendable. But if this was an act of uncontroled violence, not so sure I agree. Hopefully in this situation the thinking people involved got together and sorted this out.

Quack · February 23, 2015, 03:42:11 PM

Couple years ago at Freestyle/Greco State we had a trainer pull a kid. The kid did not go up to the trainer and the trainer was never called to the kids mat. He just seen him walking by holding his head. Our kids is one of those that has a hard time knowing if he is hurt or injured. He also likes to feel sorry for himself. Well the trainer red flagged him and said he was done, even tho he passed all the concussion tests the guy could give. I told the trainer that give the kid an hour and he will be up playing grab butt with the other kids there. An hour later I walked passed the trainer pointed out our kids running around and goofing off. I then commented to the trainer on how I told him so. He mentioned he didnt know the kid so he made his judgement on what he thought was right. I told him I knew the kid and told him that this would happen.

warriordad · February 23, 2015, 03:47:51 PM

It is this line. It's technically not even a choice that CAN be made, let alone the correct one to be made. And if it is the correct one, why is the disqualification the mandated resolution? Why isn't it if the kid can't continue, the other kid automatically gets to move on?
Ty, I believe the coach has a option of forfeiting the match before the disqualification for the slam takes place. I know of a team that was in a very tight dual last year and I believe it was in the last match and a slam was called and the slammed wrestler could not continue. The slammed wrestler's coach's decided to forfeit the match, thus losing the dual for his team because the coach said he did not want to win that way. My question is why did you let the other team win that way on an illegal slam? It was the only dual the team lost all season.

kneeslide · February 23, 2015, 03:57:53 PM

Quote from: Ty Clark on February 23, 2015, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: marshman on February 22, 2015, 09:11:03 PM
I've witnessed too many coaches not make this choice even though it is the correct one.

It is this line. It's technically not even a choice that CAN be made, let alone the correct one to be made. And if it is the correct one, why is the disqualification the mandated resolution? Why isn't it if the kid can't continue, the other kid automatically gets to move on?

It's just too much of a slippery slope. If you are behind, just slam the kid. The coach will be pressured into giving you the win and let you move on. If they don't give you the win, the kid and coach will be booed and ostracized. After all, you just declared that it would be "wrong" to follow the rules. (Think about the Kohl Center booing a few years back when the kid won state because of a slam call. Whether people were booing the kid or the official is debatable.)

Like I said, if it is a bad call or very questionable, I would be on the other side of the fence. I don't think what the coaches did was wrong by any means; I just think we need to be careful of what we wish for.

Ty
You are wrong in your statement. A choice can be made. The coach has until the end of recovery time to indicate that they would like to default the match. Once recovery time has expired they can no longer default the match. Please go back and read the rule book and you will find the clarification. I do not have the rulebook in front of me to reference the rule.

Ty Clark · February 23, 2015, 07:33:36 PM

Quote from: kneeslide on February 23, 2015, 03:57:53 PM
Quote from: Ty Clark on February 23, 2015, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: marshman on February 22, 2015, 09:11:03 PM
I've witnessed too many coaches not make this choice even though it is the correct one.

It is this line. It's technically not even a choice that CAN be made, let alone the correct one to be made. And if it is the correct one, why is the disqualification the mandated resolution? Why isn't it if the kid can't continue, the other kid automatically gets to move on?

It's just too much of a slippery slope. If you are behind, just slam the kid. The coach will be pressured into giving you the win and let you move on. If they don't give you the win, the kid and coach will be booed and ostracized. After all, you just declared that it would be "wrong" to follow the rules. (Think about the Kohl Center booing a few years back when the kid won state because of a slam call. Whether people were booing the kid or the official is debatable.)

Like I said, if it is a bad call or very questionable, I would be on the other side of the fence. I don't think what the coaches did was wrong by any means; I just think we need to be careful of what we wish for.

Ty
You are wrong in your statement. A choice can be made. The coach has until the end of recovery time to indicate that they would like to default the match. Once recovery time has expired they can no longer default the match. Please go back and read the rule book and you will find the clarification. I do not have the rulebook in front of me to reference the rule.

That's a fairly recent rule change, isn't it? Presumably to prevent kids from doing the one-second restart then default, right? It kind of rings a bell, but I don't really believe in "rules", per se. I just keep yelling what I want to be right, because, if I stop yelling, it means I'm admitting that I'm wrong. Speaking of, I should be typing in ALL CAPS RIGHT NOW WITH LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!

imwi · February 23, 2015, 07:55:10 PM

Quote from: Ty Clark on February 23, 2015, 07:33:36 PM

That's a fairly recent rule change, isn't it? Presumably to prevent kids from doing the one-second restart then default, right? It kind of rings a bell, but I don't really believe in "rules", per se. I just keep yelling what I want to be right, because, if I stop yelling, it means I'm admitting that I'm wrong. Speaking of, I should be typing in ALL CAPS RIGHT NOW WITH LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!

Finally!!! A fan that admits it :

South Coach · February 23, 2015, 08:16:31 PM

Something can be accidental and still illegal by rule. Unfortunate for the wrestler who did the slam, if truly by accident, but even more unfortunate still for the athlete who was slammed regardless of the score of the match or eventual outcome. I find this especially true when the slammed wrestler misses any additional time, regardless of his ability, experience level, or the time of year.

Bottom line is when you take the risk of lifting your opponent off the mat your are responsible for his safe return so you also take the risk of an illegal slam accidental or otherwise.

That said, the specific situation still plays a huge roll in the decisions involved and it sounds like these coaches went with their gut in the heat of the moment. Right or wrong - great job.

the mayor · February 24, 2015, 11:56:34 AM

Hats off to WWR entire program. The trainer said no, the slam was called correctly, but more than anything else it appeared the wrestler himself made the final call. I believe he said if you won't let me continue, I want to forfeit to him. If that is indeed what took place, I do give credit to the entire program, but especially the wrestler, what an impressive young man.