Is it just me or has Iowa changed their style?McDough and Ramos do pretty much nothing on their feet in tough matches,Ramos stalls his butt off in neutral position and all he does is pushes like a HWT.I cant wait to watch Ramos get schooled tomorrow night,jmo will be totally different match from Big10 finals.
2 matches against Tyler and Ramos has yet to take a legit offensive shot!!!!But somehow refs thinks he is the aggressor?
Quote from: boowrestle on March 22, 2013, 07:11:00 PM
Is it just me or has Iowa changed their style?McDough and Ramos do pretty much nothing on their feet in tough matches,Ramos stalls his butt off in neutral position and all he does is pushes like a HWT.I cant wait to watch Ramos get schooled tomorrow night,jmo will be totally different match from Big10 finals.
Totally agree. The new Iowa style is to push, push, with no offensive attempts. Graff's style does him no favors late in close matches, because he likes to create space, then it looks like he's running when Ramos just keeps pushing forward....Alex's match was frustrating to watch too...
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.
Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.
+1
Chedd,u better go back and watch some iowa film they havent been wrestling this style for a long time,looks like watching whole team of ryan morningstars,Brands and steiners the Gable wrestlers never would just push and stall and rely on refs to award them free pts for the win.Iam not complaining,pretty much all of college wrestling has adapted this style,not everybody can wrestle like David Taylor!Dake is going to be surprised by tonights finals results,no 4 timer tonight,Taylor 3/4pts over Dake tonight!
Iowa guys engage and move forward; they don't back up to "create distance" and they don't just tie up the other guy. They are hand fighting and working the head (some might say eyes). I would agree that they aren't taking all of the shots (like Ramos refuses to do), but many do. I think the bottom line is that if (like Ramos) you confront your opponent and engage him in "meaningful" combat, e.g. movement, hand fighting, etc., the ref is going to look at that as being actively engaged, i.e. not stalling.
The converse is exemplified by Graff; backing up, constantly giving ground (for whatever rationale), making just a few well timed shots over the course of the match, etc. That is not a winning recipe, evidently. The refs are going to view that as stalling (if he shot more then maybe he could make an argument for it not being stalling, but if you employ that strategy for 5 of the 7 minutes of the match then you simply have to expect to get hit with stalling.
Personally, I think the ref in the Graff-Ramos match called it exactly right. He hit Graff with the stall calls plenty early enough in the match so that Graff had time to change his approach - but he didn't. The ref didn't "surprise" Graff with the call in the last seconds of the match. Good for the ref.
Quote from: npope on March 23, 2013, 09:27:07 AM
The converse is exemplified by Graff; backing up, constantly giving ground (for whatever rationale), making just a few well timed shots over the course of the match, etc. That is not a winning recipe, evidently. The refs are going to view that as stalling (if he shot more then maybe he could make an argument for it not being stalling, but if you employ that strategy for 5 of the 7 minutes of the match then you simply have to expect to get hit with stalling.
Delgado uses a similar strategy but Graff took it to the extreme. Only one shot the whole match will get you hit with stalling if you give ground the rest of the match. Delgado also gets himself into scramble situations when he is riding, Graff just let Ramos go. If Graff limits the time on their feet he probably wins. Taking another outside single, where he wasn't in position to get taken down, might have been enough. Ramos has great defense but Graff respected it too much.
I agree the ref called a good match. He didn't decide it by calling it too late. He let the wrestlers win it.
Quote from: boowrestle on March 23, 2013, 09:14:29 AM
Chedd,u better go back and watch some iowa film they havent been wrestling this style for a long time,looks like watching whole team of ryan morningstars,Brands and steiners the Gable wrestlers never would just push and stall and rely on refs to award them free pts for the win.Iam not complaining,pretty much all of college wrestling has adapted this style,not everybody can wrestle like David Taylor!Dake is going to be surprised by tonights finals results,no 4 timer tonight,Taylor 3/4pts over Dake tonight!
Most Iowa wrestlers combine aggressiveness/pushing people out with offense. Ramos is the only Iowa national champion level wrestler that I remember who rarely takes a shot. Many of their mid level wrestlers have the style we are all referring to but most of their AA at least incorporate some offense to it. Guys like the Brands', Mocco, Metcalf, Mc Illravy, McDonough, Fullhart, etc would typically push guys all over the mat, force bad shots and open up their offense when guys wear down. Iowa definitely has a style and have had the same style for a very long time. Very rarely do they put guys on the mat who don't fit this style (Mark Perry, the Williams bros are the only ones I can remember). Maybe they have taken it to the next level in recent years or maybe it is just everybody focusing on Ramos' match last night. I've been watching Big Ten wrestling for approximately 15-20 years and I noticed the Iowa style then just as I do now.
Quote from: Goat Roper on March 23, 2013, 11:03:44 AM
I'll bet Matt McDonough weighs 145# today.
+1
And closer to 160 by weeks end
wonder if he wishes he had that big 10 medal back?
Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.
I thought after Graff got the lead while Ramos did a lot of blocking Graff also seemed to either run out of gas or just couldn't sustain his first takedown/reversal explosiveness. I don't know about the stalling on Graff but he obviously didn't do enough to win that match. He did have a great tournament and an awesome 3rd place.
Congrats!
Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.
Actually, it's something that's VERY new.....
It's a lot different than they wrestled with Metcalf and guys like that. They'er not attacking, they're just pushing and blocking...WHICH is stalling.
And it doesn't matter that you've taken every single shot because you backed up for some space?
I agree about Ramos. Iowa fans, of course, claim Tyler stalls.
In fairness to Matt McDonough, he has had a bad shoulder all year. If you have ever had thad problem, you can sympathize.
Quote from: Scourge on March 23, 2013, 02:40:41 PM
Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.
Actually, it's something that's VERY new.....
It's a lot different than they wrestled with Metcalf and guys like that. They'er not attacking, they're just pushing and blocking...WHICH is stalling.
And it doesn't matter that you've taken every single shot because you backed up for some space?
Point to an individual time in Ramos' semis or finals match where he could have been called for stalling. He isn't stalling, he just isn't taking shots. If you push the action, you get the calls. Whether we like it or, no ref is going to award a stalling call to our guy for backing up and taking one shot the entire match.
Shockingly, Ramos took shots in the finals.
Quote from: boowrestle on March 23, 2013, 09:14:29 AM
Chedd,u better go back and watch some iowa film they havent been wrestling this style for a long time,looks like watching whole team of ryan morningstars,Brands and steiners the Gable wrestlers never would just push and stall and rely on refs to award them free pts for the win.Iam not complaining,pretty much all of college wrestling has adapted this style,not everybody can wrestle like David Taylor!Dake is going to be surprised by tonights finals results,no 4 timer tonight,Taylor 3/4pts over Dake tonight!
Boo you silly man!
Quote from: Chedd on March 23, 2013, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: Scourge on March 23, 2013, 02:40:41 PM
Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.
Actually, it's something that's VERY new.....
It's a lot different than they wrestled with Metcalf and guys like that. They'er not attacking, they're just pushing and blocking...WHICH is stalling.
And it doesn't matter that you've taken every single shot because you backed up for some space?
Point to an individual time in Ramos' semis or finals match where he could have been called for stalling. He isn't stalling, he just isn't taking shots. If you push the action, you get the calls. Whether we like it or, no ref is going to award a stalling call to our guy for backing up and taking one shot the entire match.
Shockingly, Ramos took shots in the finals.
If you read the rules book, constantly. Blocking and pushing is by definition-stalling.
Not that Graff doesn't when he gets a lead, but Ramos certainly was. You can't just block and push and think because you're in the future that's not stalling.
Iowa is living on their past reputation - I think they get calls they shouldn't. I think they have a strategy sometimes of wrestling for the overtime.
Quote from: Scourge on March 25, 2013, 01:32:04 PM
If you read the rules book, constantly. Blocking and pushing is by definition-stalling.
Not that Graff doesn't when he gets a lead, but Ramos certainly was. You can't just block and push and think because you're in the future that's not stalling.
I think you need to take the issue up with the NCAA refs then, Scourge. They seem to be fine with that style of wrestling and don't see any conflict with the rules as written - which they have read.
That said, personally, I would agree with you that a person could be stalling when wrestling in a manner that Ramos does against Graff. I think the main thing that allows him to get away with it is that he is constantly in the future and engaging (while Graff is backing up and not engaging). The ref is thinking, "Hhhmmm, who to call for stalling?" Easy call, quite honestly. Most of the time Graff wasn't being pushed out but rather, he would run to the edge and insist on engaging the action there (and even then, he would only shoot a couple of times during the match). Just not a good strategy.
He lost at the Big Tens with that strategy and as soon as he got a lead in the NCAA match he went back to that strategy again. Sooner or later the coaches and Graff just have to conclude that they need to actually wrestle Ramos for the full seven minutes. I think Graff would do well (or at least better) with that strategy. But then again, I don't know jack; and the coaches are experts so...
Personally I was disappointed in Graff's quarterfinal match when he had 4-0 lead on McCormick from Missouri and he didn't appear to have any sense of urgency to keep wrestling. Graff was in on a single leg in the second periodand he seemed to be content to let the referee call a stalemate instead of getting another takedown. That match eneded up 4-2, I believe, and it seemed to me that Graff stopped being aggressive and was content to more or less stall out the last period and a half.
I figured he didn't stand a chance against Ramos if he wrestled only half the match so when he jumped out to that lead in the second period, I thought Graff was clearly in the driver's seat and was going to be advancing to the finals.
.....and then, he went back to not being aggressive and it was very frustrating to watch everything he worked for go out the window.
Maybe Tyler Graff needs to watch some of Dan Gable's Iowa team's tapes.
Royce Alger was one of my favorites for his aggressiveness. He attacked and attacked. I remember watching an Iowa / Iowa State dual when he stalled out Kevin Jackson. Alger never quit no matter what the score was.
You need to plan the match to be 11 minutes - If you finish them off in 7 minutes or less, so be it.
While I think we all appreciate Alger's aggressiveness, I wouldn't suggest that everybody turn into the Hulk during their matches - not everybody can do what Alger did. And I don't begrudge Graff's strategy to be a bit cautious in his matches and use strategies to leverage situations - I think that is appropriate and the norm. A guy usually shouldn't be taking a shot when he has a one point lead with 15 seconds left. Ty's problem is that he is far too transparent with his strategy when wrestling the top guys; too easy for a ref to see it and call him on it.
But again, I never competed at that level and so I am strictly an arm-chair quarterback on this one. But it just seems so painfully evident as to what is going on in those matches with respect to Ty's strategies and refs aren't likely to let it go for the entire match.
Quote from: whatever on March 25, 2013, 05:41:04 PM
Personally I was disappointed in Graff's quarterfinal match when he had 4-0 lead on McCormick from Missouri and he didn't appear to have any sense of urgency to keep wrestling. Graff was in on a single leg in the second periodand he seemed to be content to let the referee call a stalemate instead of getting another takedown. That match eneded up 4-2, I believe, and it seemed to me that Graff stopped being aggressive and was content to more or less stall out the last period and a half.
I figured he didn't stand a chance against Ramos if he wrestled only half the match so when he jumped out to that lead in the second period, I thought Graff was clearly in the driver's seat and was going to be advancing to the finals.
.....and then, he went back to not being aggressive and it was very frustrating to watch everything he worked for go out the window.
+1