Wisconsin Wrestling Online

I just got an e-mail from WWCA asking for coaches opinions on several topics including starting the HS season after Thanksgiving, seeding the individual state tournament, and reducing weight classes, among others.  Since these items frequently come up on the forum, I figured it would be good to have people ask their HS head coach if he got this email and if he responded to it.  For any of these items, this would be the first step towards change - if there is an overwhelming consensus, then the WWCA takes it to the WIAA to see where it goes from there.  Make sure your program is being represented.

If anybody hears back that their coach didn't get the e-mail, PM me with his name and e-mail address and I can forward it along.

Was there anything on Double Elimination at State for everyone?

No

Number of weights
Seeding state
Allowing very small teams to practice with others
Starting after thanksgiving

I am interested to see how the votes go for allowing small teams to practice with others. It's a great idea. Allows teams to stay on their own but get in decent practices. Also interested in the weights vote.

Small teams unite! 😜

Quote from: Ghetto on April 01, 2016, 08:50:23 AM
No

Number of weights
Seeding state
Allowing very small teams to practice with others
Starting after thanksgiving

I am interested to see how the votes go for allowing small teams to practice with others. It's a great idea. Allows teams to stay on their own but get in decent practices. Also interested in the weights vote.

Small teams unite! 😜

No JHI.  Breaks my heart!

Barou - not to be cynical on my own post... but what would you rather have?

A) JHI not suggested to the coaches

B)  JHI suggested to the coaches, overwhelmingly supported, forwarded to the WIAA, and shot down in 2s

Deadline is Thursday at 5:00
Results of both state wide surveys from March and April will be on the WWCA website (wwca.org)
on Friday or Monday. Some very interesting results thus far and would like to get at least 50 more responses to get a large percentage survey.
As long as your voting in the presidential elections today get your coaching vote counted as well and reply to the survey.

Quote from: CLC FAN on April 01, 2016, 03:06:27 PM
Barou - not to be cynical on my own post... but what would you rather have?

A) JHI not suggested to the coaches

B)  JHI suggested to the coaches, overwhelmingly supported, forwarded to the WIAA, and shot down in 2s

Just saw this post.  So are you saying that the superior WIAA would not even entertain the idea of junior high inclusion?  They spent their time putting together that ridiculous sportsmanship memo and they can't listen to something actually reasonable and not utterly ridiculous?  That group must just sit together in a room and tell each other how great they are.....good grief.

Quote from: futurerichguy on April 05, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
How can weight classes be reduced?  I thought there was a national standard.  Would Wisconsin be the only state with less than 14 weight classes?  That would be stupid.

Michigan still uses the old 13 weight classes.

Quote from: futurerichguy on April 05, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
How can weight classes be reduced?  I thought there was a national standard.  Would Wisconsin be the only state with less than 14 weight classes?  That would be stupid.

States can modify national rules in any fashion they want although it can be tough to get states to change.

For future possible questions.  Wondering what coaches would say.

1) Allow 6 matches in a day?  Would allow many more bracket options and in the end only a small percentage of kids would actually wrestle 6 matches
2) Reduce rest time to 30 minutes?

The question on having season starting after Thanksgiving I think would be a positive. I do believe a lot of programs would pick up a few more wrestlers if this was to happen and I'm sure this is why basketball is doing it. Lets face it wrestling season is a long grueling season thus shortening it up would be a positive not just to gain possibly more wrestlers but at same time keep kids motivated and maybe a little more hungry when the season starts.

Michigan still has 14 wt classes, just the original 14:  103,112,119,125,130,135,140,145,152,160,171,189,215,285

Quote from: goldmedal on April 05, 2016, 03:22:39 PM
The question on having season starting after Thanksgiving I think would be a positive. I do believe a lot of programs would pick up a few more wrestlers if this was to happen and I'm sure this is why basketball is doing it. Lets face it wrestling season is a long grueling season thus shortening it up would be a positive not just to gain possibly more wrestlers but at same time keep kids motivated and maybe a little more hungry when the season starts.

I think you could also pick up more coaches.  But the truth is that a coach can start his season whenever he wants.  Every coach could start after Thanksgiving now if they wanted to wait but lots of pressure to follow the pack.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 05, 2016, 03:07:09 PM
For future possible questions.  Wondering what coaches would say.

1) Allow 6 matches in a day?  Would allow many more bracket options and in the end only a small percentage of kids would actually wrestle 6 matches
2) Reduce rest time to 30 minutes?

I could see allowing 6 matches, but I expect that you would see more formats emerge that increase the opportunities to wrestle 6.  Perhaps it would be best to only allow 6 in a qualifying tournament, which would allow more wrestleback matches.  If we are allowing kids to wrestle an additional match, they are going to need more rest time...   not less.  Keep the rest time at 45 min., for the health of the wrestlers.

Being the "only one" shouldn't be a worry. Being proactive for improving the sport in our state should be a priority. Be a leader.

If the concern is about competitions vs other states, simple rule is, "when in Rome..." So if you head to Illinois use their weights, if they come here, use ours. Not all states went to 14 weights right away, and Michigan didn't change weight classes to the current ones, they are still using the weight classes from 2012. They are doing what they feel works best for them.

The WIAA and A.D.'s have no interest in JHI. It won't fly even if wrestling coaches wanted it. All sports would need to push for it, and that won't happen. 

How do you know that Wisconsin is the only state to consider reducing weights? I know that it has been discussed on the Minnesota forum at length, with much debate like on here. We aren't the only ones not filling weights. Go look at the state tournaments from other states that have kids with losing records, or no record at all at state. How sad is it for the sport when a kid with a 0-0 record or 4-20 record qualifies? Imagine if a 4-20 basketball team made it to state in Wisconsin. People would think it was a complete joke.

The issue I see with shortening the season is that the number of events stays the same. Everything gets condensed into a smaller package. I do like the idea of starting after Thanksgiving though. Gives football players a rest, and takes family vacations and hunting out of the picture.

Quote from: goldmedal on April 05, 2016, 03:22:39 PM
The question on having season starting after Thanksgiving I think would be a positive. I do believe a lot of programs would pick up a few more wrestlers if this was to happen and I'm sure this is why basketball is doing it. Lets face it wrestling season is a long grueling season thus shortening it up would be a positive not just to gain possibly more wrestlers but at same time keep kids motivated and maybe a little more hungry when the season starts.

So let me get this straight. Competition then cannot begin until 3rd week of December due to minimum 10 practices.  4th week of December is Christmas break. Come back January 4th and those that aren't on varsity are done competing last week of January due to post season starting. So non varsity kids basically have 5 weeks to compete.  Pure nonsense. And you really think you are going to pick up anyone extra because of this? Why? Even if you could they have very little time to even learn what the heck is going on. Sure they could practice an extra couple weeks with the team at the end of the season but how many would want to do that when done competing?

State boys basketball is two weeks after ours. I didn't hear they were moving season back but even if they did our seasons would be same length if they started after thanksgiving.

Boys and girls basketball alternate starts. Boys I believe were a week behind this year.

Here's an example of us being proactive with uniforms. We tend to lead and not follow on some things...

http://www.flowrestling.org/article/40808-multiple-states-considering-shorts-shirt-uniform-change

Quote from: Ghetto on April 06, 2016, 09:55:24 AM
How do you know that Wisconsin is the only state to consider reducing weights? I know that it has been discussed on the Minnesota forum at length, with much debate like on here. We aren't the only ones not filling weights. Go look at the state tournaments from other states that have kids with losing records, or no record at all at state. How sad is it for the sport when a kid with a 0-0 record or 4-20 record qualifies? Imagine if a 4-20 basketball team made it to state in Wisconsin. People would think it was a complete joke.

The issue I see with shortening the season is that the number of events stays the same. Everything gets condensed into a smaller package. I do like the idea of starting after Thanksgiving though. Gives football players a rest, and takes family vacations and hunting out of the picture.

Very few football teams have to worry about that rest. It's the same for 3 sport kids from sport to sport.

Youth wrestling goes an extra month before their state tournament and I don't see a big string of discussion there complaining. Wrestling is not that long of a season with the breaks you get. Most kids tell me they can't believe how fast it goes by.

I think there are positives to starting later. I'm not sold either way. Our football team rarely gets that far. Thanksgiving vacations some times get in the way however.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 06, 2016, 10:02:54 AM
Boys and girls basketball alternate starts. Boys I believe were a week behind this year.

Here's an example of us being proactive with uniforms. We tend to lead and not follow on some things...

http://www.flowrestling.org/article/40808-multiple-states-considering-shorts-shirt-uniform-change

This is true but whatever team has the earlier state tournament always starts practicing a week before wrestling starts. So no matter what they are 2 weeks longer.

Quote from: Handles II on April 06, 2016, 09:48:32 AM

The WIAA and A.D.'s have no interest in JHI. It won't fly even if wrestling coaches wanted it. All sports would need to push for it, and that won't happen. 

I have no doubt that is 100% true.  Extremely unfortunate that the WIAA and our A.D.'s are that lazy, uninformed, close-minded, and reactive instead of proactive.  The WIAA will think outside of the box when, in their opinion, they think they are paving the way with such innovation on sportsmanship that they dedicate their time and resources to that failed memo and make us a punch-line nationwide but when real, positive change could be made "whoa, hold-on, easy!!! pump the brakes" "junior high athletes competing with high school athletes?  The insanity.  What?  They do that in Minnesota?  And it works?  Doesn't matter, we are all smarter then the people of the Minnesota State High School League.  We are the WIAA.  If you're not sure how smart we are, just ask us.  In fact, we're so observant we believe it is unsportsmanlike to yell 'airball' and 'scoreboard' during basketball games.  We're going to address it.  High school organizations are going to be so impressed they will follow our lead!"

The coaches can get the WIAA's ear for wrestling specific changes.

JHI would be a complete philosophical change and would be directed by all sports.  Wrestling would need many other sports to also support JHI to make it happen with the WIAA.  It is not something wrestling could do on its own.

Minnesota has JHI for every sport I believe, not just wrestling.

I could see many AD's getting behind it though if it means they can eliminate the middle school programs and that is my fear.  With budget cuts does Minnesota have AD's just have all junior high wrestlers go to varsity.

The other definition is what is "junior high".  Our whole middle school wrestling conference just got blown up and I guess it is because some schools wanted to include 5th graders and others did not.  Some middle schools/junior highs have 5th graders. 

It needs a new name other than JHI so it is only 7th/8th graders besides the fact that very few "junior highs" actually exist as most are "middle schools".

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 06, 2016, 11:30:01 AM
The coaches can get the WIAA's ear for wrestling specific changes.

JHI would be a complete philosophical change and would be directed by all sports.  Wrestling would need many other sports to also support JHI to make it happen with the WIAA.  It is not something wrestling could do on its own.

Minnesota has JHI for every sport I believe, not just wrestling.

I could see many AD's getting behind it though if it means they can eliminate the middle school programs and that is my fear.  With budget cuts does Minnesota have AD's just have all junior high wrestlers go to varsity.

The other definition is what is "junior high".  Our whole middle school wrestling conference just got blown up and I guess it is because some schools wanted to include 5th graders and others did not.  Some middle schools/junior highs have 5th graders. 

It needs a new name other than JHI so it is only 7th/8th graders besides the fact that very few "junior highs" actually exist as most are "middle schools".

There were multiple reasons that junior high conference got blown up.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 06, 2016, 10:18:12 AM
Handles,
You bring up a great point about "When in Rome", so does this mean that at our better tournaments that attract or invite out of state competition that they would need to cut kids to attend our tournaments?
As a leader let's fight for keeping more opportunity for kids and not be defeatist that cuts kids out of the sport because some coaches and community's can't grow the sport.
How does that sound like leadership to anyone?
Leadership: an effective leader is a person who does the following: creates an inspiring vision of the future. Motivates and inspires people to engage with that vision.
If it's ok with you Handles I will teach my son and inspire my community to set goals and work towards being great!!!
Great students
Great young people
Great team mates
Great winners/losers
Great recruiters
Great dreamers
Great executors

No, no one would need to be cut. But they might have to wrestle off for the opportunity to be at that weight for one tournament.

Quote from: padre on April 06, 2016, 12:18:50 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 06, 2016, 11:30:01 AM
The coaches can get the WIAA's ear for wrestling specific changes.

JHI would be a complete philosophical change and would be directed by all sports.  Wrestling would need many other sports to also support JHI to make it happen with the WIAA.  It is not something wrestling could do on its own.

Minnesota has JHI for every sport I believe, not just wrestling.

I could see many AD's getting behind it though if it means they can eliminate the middle school programs and that is my fear.  With budget cuts does Minnesota have AD's just have all junior high wrestlers go to varsity.

The other definition is what is "junior high".  Our whole middle school wrestling conference just got blown up and I guess it is because some schools wanted to include 5th graders and others did not.  Some middle schools/junior highs have 5th graders. 

It needs a new name other than JHI so it is only 7th/8th graders besides the fact that very few "junior highs" actually exist as most are "middle schools".

There were multiple reasons that junior high conference got blown up.

Any good reasons padre?

Barou yep the coaches wanted a say in how the conference was run. Now have a 18 teams and tonight we will all get together at the conference meeting to decide if any changes are necessary.

Quote from: Barou on April 06, 2016, 01:18:49 PM

Quote from: padre on April 06, 2016, 12:18:50 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 06, 2016, 11:30:01 AM
The coaches can get the WIAA's ear for wrestling specific changes.

JHI would be a complete philosophical change and would be directed by all sports.  Wrestling would need many other sports to also support JHI to make it happen with the WIAA.  It is not something wrestling could do on its own.

Minnesota has JHI for every sport I believe, not just wrestling.

I could see many AD's getting behind it though if it means they can eliminate the middle school programs and that is my fear.  With budget cuts does Minnesota have AD's just have all junior high wrestlers go to varsity.

The other definition is what is "junior high".  Our whole middle school wrestling conference just got blown up and I guess it is because some schools wanted to include 5th graders and others did not.  Some middle schools/junior highs have 5th graders. 

It needs a new name other than JHI so it is only 7th/8th graders besides the fact that very few "junior highs" actually exist as most are "middle schools".

There were multiple reasons that junior high conference got blown up.

Any good reasons padre?

As Kluever said teams wanted a voice.  Won't air dirty laundry but sometimes change is good. :)

Is it possible to get some insight into why JHI conferences were terminated without airing dirty laundry? For those that are unaware it is helpful to get some form of understanding. Thanks.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 06, 2016, 11:30:01 AM
The coaches can get the WIAA's ear for wrestling specific changes.

JHI would be a complete philosophical change and would be directed by all sports.  Wrestling would need many other sports to also support JHI to make it happen with the WIAA.  It is not something wrestling could do on its own.

Minnesota has JHI for every sport I believe, not just wrestling.

I could see many AD's getting behind it though if it means they can eliminate the middle school programs and that is my fear.  With budget cuts does Minnesota have AD's just have all junior high wrestlers go to varsity.

The other definition is what is "junior high".  Our whole middle school wrestling conference just got blown up and I guess it is because some schools wanted to include 5th graders and others did not.  Some middle schools/junior highs have 5th graders. 

It needs a new name other than JHI so it is only 7th/8th graders besides the fact that very few "junior highs" actually exist as most are "middle schools".

It is also up to some of the school whether they want to fully use JHI or not.

I know some schools in basketball dont allow kids to be on JV or V until 8th grade, Strictly a school thing.

Also there are some school that dont have JHI kids on varsity for football. Once again it is strictly a school policy.

Also, Minnesota does have middle school sports. Many believe that wrestling and other sports line ups are littered with JHI which is not true at all.

Sure there are some 7th and 8th graders that are on varsity and mainly in the individual sport aspect of it but in the team sports like football and basketball it is a lower amount of kids. not saying there is no kids but the numbers are alot less than wrestling and other individual sports.

Middle school is alive and well in minnesota and yes almost ALL minnesota schools put out a competitive team with a school nickname and uniforms ;)

If JHI is so great than why is there like 5 states that have this?

Also, depends on where you are at, at my school, they think of 6-8th grader as junior high. Next year our middle school (grades 5-8) will become a 6-8 grade and carry the moniker of junior high. So I think the how many call junior high is strictly up to the district them selves or what your AD wants to think of sporting events being called that.

I'm still not sold on full JHI on the varsity level. I believe it would better serve the sport and the wrestlers to have JHI on the junior varsity level only.

- Obviously a good 8th grader will get better competition against 9th-11th graders, even if they aren't varsity, than he would against other 7th-8th graders.
- It would increase the numbers on the JV level enough to have duals (or at least more match ups).
- It could cut down schools' costs by combining the teams. (Of course you wouldn't have to eliminate JH wrestling completely.)
- It would further promote the idea of earning one's way onto varsity--- all wrestlers will have to compete on JV at some point.
- There could be more JV tournaments. Only need 8-10 teams per tournament, instead of having all of these 25 team JV tournaments where you can travel an hour in different directions, but still see the exact same teams every weekend.
- The physical difference between a 7th grader and a JV 11th grader is a lot less than between a 7th grader and a varsity senior.
- It could better bridge that gap between youth wrestling and high school where we are losing so many kids.
- It would make the WWCS Tournament pretty interesting. It would be like kids state on steroids.

Ty, I'm not sure what you mean by "full JHI on the varsity level". I hope you aren't under the assumption that all 7th and 8th graders are put on varsity in MN? That would be untrue. Only those who get or earn a spot are on varsity. Absolutely no different than any other wrestler at any other grade in any other state, or in any other sport for that matter. So what is the doubt about then?
The kids with the talent can win, get great experience for their ability level, and help the team. The others are on JV gain experience at their level and help the team. Again, no different than anywhere else, and, as LG301 said, it's up to the district anyway.

If you watch guys like Brady Berge, Patrick Kennedy, Mark Hall, wrestle when they were in 7th and 8th grade against 11th and 12th graders, there's no doubt they belong, and while those are a couple outstanding examples, there's plenty more others kicking tail too. And of course it isn't just in wrestling. My 8th grade 106lber went to State in CC this year. Our top 1600 meter runner in track is an 8th grade girl. Both are faster than some of their older teammates. Both help the team more. I'm not sure I see the difference in them being 8th vs. 9th grade and it being ok or not ok.

Quote from: Ty Clark on April 06, 2016, 07:12:59 PM
I'm still not sold on full JHI on the varsity level. I believe it would better serve the sport and the wrestlers to have JHI on the junior varsity level only.

- Obviously a good 8th grader will get better competition against 9th-11th graders, even if they aren't varsity, than he would against other 7th-8th graders.
- It would increase the numbers on the JV level enough to have duals (or at least more match ups).
- It could cut down schools' costs by combining the teams. (Of course you wouldn't have to eliminate JH wrestling completely.)
- It would further promote the idea of earning one's way onto varsity--- all wrestlers will have to compete on JV at some point.
- There could be more JV tournaments. Only need 8-10 teams per tournament, instead of having all of these 25 team JV tournaments where you can travel an hour in different directions, but still see the exact same teams every weekend.
- The physical difference between a 7th grader and a JV 11th grader is a lot less than between a 7th grader and a varsity senior.
- It could better bridge that gap between youth wrestling and high school where we are losing so many kids.
- It would make the WWCS Tournament pretty interesting. It would be like kids state on steroids.

What is there not to be "sold" on?  There is judgment to be used for athletes, parents, and coaches.  Some 7th graders are physically and mentally prepared to compete at a varsity level in football.  Some 11th graders aren't.  JHI ='s opportunity.  

When I coached in Minnesota sports had an A, B, and C team which is basically varsity, jv, and junior high.  Very few but some junior high (7th and 8th grader since that has now turned into an issue) athletes competed on varsity.  From what I can remember one year there were no JH kids on varsity football.  1 JH girl on girls volleyball.  1 or 2 for cross country with a lot on JV.  2 wrestling starters on varsity and about a 50/50 mix between JV and "C" team.  Also a couple freshman and sophomore newer kids on the C team.  Neither basketball team had any JH kids on varsity both had a few on JV.  Many JH kids competed in varsity track (probably 6 or 7 for both).  One kid played both varsity and JV baseball.  That's what I remember off the top and every kid that competed on varsity was mentally and physically at that level.  We also had 1 7th grader and 1 8th grader where the parents did not want their kid wrestling on varsity as they did not think they were prepared yet.  They did, however, allow them to compete in some dual meets depending on the opponent.  So I guess a little communication is necessary.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 07, 2016, 04:11:09 PM
I am very frustrated with the conversation of consolidation as is everyone I speak to about the topic so I thought I would share some comments made by several committed wrestling family's.
Mind you these are advanced wrestling family's.
Question: How do you feel about WI dropping weight classes?
1. We have been thinking of jumping the river so my kids can start varsity in Jr high any way.
2. I hope it's a heavier weight, those kids can do other sports.
3. Doesn't affect my kids, they will bump out anyone on the team.
4. This could be a good thing, with less partners in the room the coach will probably let us miss some practices to get to our club team.
5. Who cares it will never happen after what the WIAA this year they won't want another black eye.
6. My kid is not afraid to cut weight so he will be fine.
7. And the most common response, are any other states doing this?

3 more and we can make it a top 10 like David Letterman  ;D

You are correct though...the wrong way to build a sport is by tearing it down.  I just wish Wisconsin would spend as much time working on ways to recruite and retain more than or atleast as much as they do trying to reduce weight classes.

Bottom line is that the NFHS went to 14 weights as an effort to improve the sport and increase participation. It didn't work, at least not in WI  We have the numbers for 10 years showing it.
It has helped increased the numbers of forfeits, decreased the number of programs in the state.

I guess my focus would be on reversing those two trends at a statewide/sportwide level. Otherwise you are trying to get an engine to run with a cracked block.

Quote from: Handles II on April 08, 2016, 08:24:53 AM
Bottom line is that the NFHS went to 14 weights as an effort to improve the sport and increase participation. It didn't work, at least not in WI  We have the numbers for 10 years showing it.
It has helped increased the numbers of forfeits, decreased the number of programs in the state.

I guess my focus would be on reversing those two trends at a statewide/sportwide level. Otherwise you are trying to get an engine to run with a cracked block.

14 weight classes didnt cause those 2 trends......lack of focus and attention to recruiting and retaining did.  Yes recruiting and retaining is harder than it used to be.....but so are many other things....taking the easy back door approach will just hurt wrestling over all in the long run.  Keep reducing and you will push it into a club sport only.....and loose it in high school.  Concentrate an recruiting and retention.

Aarons, I HIGHLY doubt that statewide, and even based off our numbers, that nation wide recruiting and efforts to retain kids dropped. In fact I'm positive that coaches are and have been working harder than ever to recruit and retain BECAUSE there are 14 weights and adding two more forfeits not only can cause a loss in matches, but it shows you can't fill a varsity roster and that looks bad on the coach and the program.

Ghetto was offended on another thread when this type of thing was said, and I'm offended in this one. I'll defend all of the coaches that I personally know who turn over every rock to get a kid, be it a 9th or 12th grader to join the sport. To say we have not put forth the effort is blasphemy and a complete insult and cop out on what really happened. Wrestling is a difficult sport to get kids out for, and more weights were added making it even harder. Plain and simple.

Why are we one of the only sports that has to constantly try to recruit kids who have zero experience into the sport simply to fill the extensive number of varsity slots? 

Handles, your post just reminded me that all those new recruits are potentially future wrestling fans, coaches, officials, and parents of wrestlers.  Maybe that investment of our time to recruit them will result in great future benefits for our sport. 

It is not about recruiting.
Someone on here or the guillotine actually showed numbers where schools increased the number of wrestlers in their rooms.

The problem is that we don't make the weight divisions where the kids are.  I have posted this previously and posted the CDC links showing the age and weight data.

Quote from: MNbadger on April 08, 2016, 10:47:35 AM
It is not about recruiting.
Someone on here or the guillotine actually showed numbers where schools increased the number of wrestlers in their rooms.

The problem is that we don't make the weight divisions where the kids are.  I have posted this previously and posted the CDC links showing the age and weight data.

So you think reducing weights help....and yes it is about recruiting and retaining. ....its harder to recruit kids eith more options and generally the change in society.   Doesnt mean we should give up and take the easy way out.

Quote from: imnofish on April 08, 2016, 10:38:49 AM
Handles, your post just reminded me that all those new recruits are potentially future wrestling fans, coaches, officials, and parents of wrestlers.  Maybe that investment of our time to recruit them will result in great future benefits for our sport. 

Yes, which is one reason why coaches recruit. But we were told that the increase in forfeits is due to coaches not putting in the time and effort to recruit and retain. That's complete and udder b.s. We are almost the ONLY sport that due to the high number of varsity spots must try to recruit kids who have no knowledge or experience in the sport to come out, and so very often it's simply to help fill those spots. That's a shame.

Quote from: aarons23 on April 08, 2016, 10:52:07 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on April 08, 2016, 10:47:35 AM
It is not about recruiting.
Someone on here or the guillotine actually showed numbers where schools increased the number of wrestlers in their rooms.

The problem is that we don't make the weight divisions where the kids are.  I have posted this previously and posted the CDC links showing the age and weight data.

So you think reducing weights help....and yes it is about recruiting and retaining. ....its harder to recruit kids eith more options and generally the change in society.   Doesnt mean we should give up and take the easy way out.

No, I am against retraction!  I would be for adding weights.  We need to make the weight divisions fit the population of kids we are supposed to be serving.

In 2012-13 8946 kids body fat test. This year 8007.

That's pretty awesome.

I hope he can keep it up. Sustainability comes with him not having to do it himself and finding long term parents to continue to build what he has started.

Great story there in Neenah!

"So the WWCA is interested in feedback on a reduction of weight classes but wont consider JHI?? I think this sums up WI wrestling to the tee.
I am so embarrassed I don't know where to start."

My thoughts exactly. They think beating a dead horse constitutes "feedback". It's ridiculous. How many times does it have to be beaten into their heads the WIAA is not going to defy the NFHS on this?

Yes the WIAA will listen to the coaches' association for changes in the sport. But if this is the quality of the "feedback" then don't hold your breath on anything other than perhaps seeding. JHI and changing the regional structure on the D-2 and D-3 level and the team tournament series are the needed changes and yet what questions are there about them? Anything?

Send your suggestions to the WWCA. If you aren't a coach, send them to me and I'll send them on.

Survey results are listed on the WWCA website at www.wwca.org

What jumped out to me:

80% of coaches would be in favor of starting after Thanksgiving
Over 70% would be in favor of dropping to at least 13 weight classes
Over 80% on board with the 2 piece uniform

 That really sucks Woody. I would think that to at least the board members, if not the coaches, that double elim at state is a pretty big deal...

A few questions had a breakdown of D1,2,3. I'd be curious (not that it really matters) that breakdown for all of those questions. 

If my understanding is correct.... a state can have whatever rules it wants, including weights.  If they choose not to follow the national rules they lose a seat at the national tabl for decision-making and such.

Quote from: Coach Q on April 11, 2016, 06:57:38 PM
Survey results are listed on the WWCA website at www.wwca.org

Thanks for posting.

So is junior high inclusion completely off the table? 

Just my 2 cents on the last question. I noticed it did not ask if anyone was in favor of increasing the number of weight classes. To have a good survey you should include all options. They also ask 2 "NO" questions and only one "YES" question. Typically that will drive up the # of "NO" responses. IMO, surveys should not use "NO" or "YES" because people tend to lean towards "YES" because they don't like to say "NO".

And, I see they are asking if you would be in favor of the NFHS lowering the number of weight classes. They didn't ask if they were in favor of the WIAA lowering the number of weight classes. As I understand it, Wisconsin is not bound to do what the NFHS does. So...in reality question #8 is poorly written and does not directly relate to Wisconsin wrestling. Anyone that has had basic stats would throw this question out because it was leading.

As for JHI inclusion...has anyone ever heard why the WIAA is so against it? IMO it would be an opportunity for the WIAA to increase their revenue because they would be able to add all junior high locations in to the WIAA.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 08:23:55 AM
Barou,
We don't need JHI if we cut 106 & 113.
It sounds like the WIAA has told the WWCA that it's never going to be on the table.

Appreciate the reply too bad the answers stink.  I would love to see weight classes down to 12 but kind of thought it would be a reshuffle not cut 106 and 113.  That's crazy.  Even STILL, JHI isn't about just filling the 2 lowest weight classes.  Drives me crazy that people are so stupid.  The fact that the WIAA has told the WWCA that it's never going to be on the table just confirms how narcissistic and short-sighted the WIAA is.  Agree with it or disagree with it, I get it but to state something is "never" going to be on the table.....go back to writing sportsmanship memos.

Sounds terrible to me.  Supposed to be the toughest sport and we want our season 4-5 weeks shorter than the basketball seasons.  Give me a break.  If coaches don't even want a decent size season i can see how hard they must be recruiting also.

Wisconsin does not have voting privileges right now even though we have 14 weights.

The WIAA will not go to 12 weights unless the national federation does.

IF we went to 12 weights there would be a reshuffle. If we dispersed the weights according to what kids really weigh, there would be no 106 pound weight class. The percentage of kids who weigh that actual weight at the bodyfat and below is a very small percentage. Like 4%. Whether we had 14, 13, or 12 weights, the bottom weight, if we went by what kids weighed, would be around 113 and wouldn't change much no matter if we had 12, 13, or 14.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 12:27:38 PM
Wisconsin does not have voting privileges right now even though we have 14 weights.

The WIAA will not go to 12 weights unless the national federation does.

IF we went to 12 weights there would be a reshuffle. If we dispersed the weights according to what kids really weigh, there would be no 106 pound weight class. The percentage of kids who weigh that actual weight at the bodyfat and below is a very small percentage. Like 4%. Whether we had 14, 13, or 12 weights, the bottom weight, if we went by what kids weighed, would be around 113 and wouldn't change much no matter if we had 12, 13, or 14.

Not necessarily.  It depends upon what part of the bell curve you decide to use.

If you are going to cut 103 and 106 then you'll need to cut the two top weights if you are intellectually and statistically honest/accurate.

From the middle 97%:

9th grade age to 12th grade age would be  82 pounds to 210 pounds (I am assuming you are for dropping the weights above 210 pounds if you are in support of dropping 103 and 106).
http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set2clinical/cj41l071.pdf

From the middle 95%:

9th grade age to 12th grade age would be 88 pounds to 206 pounds. (I am assuming you are for dropping the weights above 206 pounds if you are in support of dropping 103 and 106).
http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf

This is data from the CDC growth charts.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 12:27:38 PM
Wisconsin does not have voting privileges right now even though we have 14 weights.

Why doesn't Wisconsin have voting privileges?

I forget all the reasons.

One is the half pound per day weight loss. The rest of the country does it differently. I think there are two more reasons, which the WWCA is trying to remedy.

Ghetto...thanks for posting the CDC growth charts. Interesting information

Quote from: MNbadger on April 12, 2016, 12:44:17 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 12:27:38 PM
Wisconsin does not have voting privileges right now even though we have 14 weights.

The WIAA will not go to 12 weights unless the national federation does.

IF we went to 12 weights there would be a reshuffle. If we dispersed the weights according to what kids really weigh, there would be no 106 pound weight class. The percentage of kids who weigh that actual weight at the bodyfat and below is a very small percentage. Like 4%. Whether we had 14, 13, or 12 weights, the bottom weight, if we went by what kids weighed, would be around 113 and wouldn't change much no matter if we had 12, 13, or 14.

Not necessarily.  It depends upon what part of the bell curve you decide to use.

If you are going to cut 103 and 106 then you'll need to cut the two top weights if you are intellectually and statistically honest/accurate.

From the middle 97%:

9th grade age to 12th grade age would be  82 pounds to 210 pounds (I am assuming you are for dropping the weights above 210 pounds if you are in support of dropping 103 and 106).
http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set2clinical/cj41l071.pdf

From the middle 95%:

9th grade age to 12th grade age would be 88 pounds to 206 pounds. (I am assuming you are for dropping the weights above 206 pounds if you are in support of dropping 103 and 106).
http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf

This is data from the CDC growth charts.

If you take the amount of kids, and divide them into 14 equal categories, the lowest weight is not 106. If you (or anyone) can explain to me how to make a bell curve graph in Excel, I would certainly appreciate it.

I am a little guy (was) but I am in support of putting weights where the kids are. If the 106 weight class doesn't make sense, then sadly I'm not for it.

There were 43 kids in the last five years who weighed 82 or less out of 43,000. That's a pretty small percentage. 146 kids weighed 88 or less. Neither needs a weight class. To me, dividing the weights according to where they lie makes more sense than a bell curve.

Quote from: bulldog on April 12, 2016, 12:58:33 PM
Ghetto...thanks for posting the CDC growth charts. Interesting information

That wasn't me. But you are welcome.  ;D

Ghetto, the point is that you WOULD NOT make equal categories.  You would have more weight classes closer together through the middle where the kids are.  You would have fewer weights on either end where there are fewer kids.  Percentage wise this makes sense.  The one drawback is that then on the ends there are bigger jumps (only a problem on the lower end due to percentages of an individual's weight).
It would be more logical to have more on the lower end for this reason (much easier to be a 220 wrestling a 240  than a 103 wrestling a 112).

In case some are interested, here is an article from '07 when Minnesota was considering 12 weight classes.

By   PIONEER PRESS
June 10, 2007 | UPDATED: 9 years ago
The Minnesota High School League's board of directors tabled a proposal by the Minnesota Wrestling Coaches Association to reduce the weight classes from 14 to 12 for further study during their meeting today.

Board member Mark Kuisle, activities director at Rochester Century, proposed tabling the issue until participating wrestling schools and co-ops can be thoroughly surveyed. The board will address the issue again at its December meeting.

If the board had approved the proposal, Minnesota would have become the first state to have 12 weight classes in wrestling.

Under the proposal, the weight classes would begin at 108 pounds and run through 285.

Eleven people on both sides of the issue attended the meeting at league headquarters in Brooklyn Center.

"I don't want to be the only state in the nation that has 12 weights," said Wabasha-Kellogg coach Ron Sanders.

"Minnesota wrestling is in great shape," said John Thorn, parent of two state champions from St. Michael-Albertville, and president of a wrestling club that represents 25 communities.

Elk River coach John Peterson, a former president of the 725-member coaches association, addressed the board with data from four coaches surveys since 2004. The responses, he said, supported the move.

"We have done our homework," Peterson said on behalf of the coaches association. "It is time to act. An overwhelming majority of our coaches are in favor of this."

Craig Perry, the MSHSL associate director who oversees wrestling, said of the 263 surveys sent to member schools, 141 were returned. Of those responses, 79 percent were in favor of a change.

But the MSHSL board said not so fast.

"We need to think about the small people in these classes," said board member Gene Sullivan of Grey Eagle. "I don't understand the situation. I am 100 percent for keeping the 14."

Others agreed, which prompted tabling the proposal.

The proposal originated, in part, because smaller schools were struggling to find participants to field complete teams, and under the proposal, two of the seven lightest weight classes would have been eliminated.

That factor really irks opponents of the proposal.

"Wrestling is the only sport where you can have a small kid participate," Thorn said. "The proposed weight classes just aren't right."

Sanders, whose sons Eric and Zach have won a Minnesota-record five individual titles each, said Minnesota wrestlers would be at a "serious disadvantage" when competing at the national level. Zach, a University of Minnesota recruit, won a national title this spring.

"It would be hard for us to match up with the rest of the nation because of the different weights," Sanders said.

Pennsylvania, Oklahoma and Wisconsin are also considering trimming weight classes from 14 to 12.

At this time they were ignoring where wrestlers were statistically as well.

And here is an article on the final vote of the 12 weight class proposal.  (FYI, thought this would interest some but if the majority doesn't want "Minnesota" information, let me know and I will cease continuing).

Wrestling: MSHSL votes to keep 14 weight classes
April 03, 2008 01:00 PM | 68 views | 0 0 comments | 3 3 recommendations | email to a friend | print
The Minnesota State High School League (MSHSL) board of directors voted against a proposal to reduce the number of weight classes in wrestling.
In a 9-7 vote (with four members absent), a motion to go to 12 weights as opposed to the national standard of 14 failed. A second vote to go to 13 weights also failed.
No further action on reducing weight classes is expected by the MSHSL. The only chance for a possible reduction would likely have to be mandated by the National Federation of State High School Associations.
Texas and Montana, with 15, are the only two states that have more weight classes than Minnesota.
In a survey done by the MSHSL with different sizes of programs around the state, 130 schools voted to reduce the number of weight classes, while 96 voted to keep it the same.
The smaller schools in the state are more in favor of a reduction to 12 weight classes because it's much harder for them to fill the current 14.
Breaking the survey down by class, Class 1A teams voted 51-31 in favor of fewer weights, while the 2A schools voted 59-33 for it.Among 3A schools, such as Prior Lake, the vote was 32-20 against a reduction.
In other MSHSL news, there will be mercy rules instituted for football and boys and girls basketball that will take effect for the 2008-09 school year.
In football, if a team has a lead of 35 points or more, there will be running time in the fourth quarter.In basketball, running time will take place in the final nine minutes of the game if a team has that big of lead.
However, in both sports, if the point spread falls below 30 points, regular time will be used.
In golf, the sites for the state tournaments have been established. This is the first spring where there will be three classes in golf, which has been increased from two.
The Class 3A boys and girls tournaments will be June 3-4 at their annual site, Bunker Hills Golf Club in Coon Rapids.The 2A tournaments will be June 5-6 at the Ridges of Sand Creek Golf Course in Jordan, while the 1A tourneys will be June 4-5 at Pebble Creek Golf Course in Becker.

Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 01:37:23 PM
If your doing it on a bell curve I would exclude freshman to insure upper class man that have put in more time and have more on the line are not being cut. Plus you should take a look at other sports to get a fair % of how many freshman start on Varsity to insure we are kicking off the right kids from Varsity.
To do a reshuffle it would require the numbers to stay equal but to be reassigned.
A 15% reduction just qualifies as a cut, we are cutting kids let's not hide behind Babel...
As a business man when ever I make cuts I readjust my budgets.
What does the average coach make a season so we can make the adjustments, shorter work period and less clients has to be accounted for.
Plus less spectators at dual and a state, we should look into getting a smaller venue for state to help off set expenses. We could probably move it in to a D3 collage and save a ton.

The average head coach makes about $4000 per season, and since the season never really ends, that probably works out to about 20 cents an hour.

Quote from: Barou on April 12, 2016, 01:34:04 PM
And here is an article on the final vote of the 12 weight class proposal.  (FYI, thought this would interest some but if the majority doesn't want "Minnesota" information, let me know and I will cease continuing).

Wrestling: MSHSL votes to keep 14 weight classes
April 03, 2008 01:00 PM | 68 views | 0 0 comments | 3 3 recommendations | email to a friend | print
The Minnesota State High School League (MSHSL) board of directors voted against a proposal to reduce the number of weight classes in wrestling.
In a 9-7 vote (with four members absent), a motion to go to 12 weights as opposed to the national standard of 14 failed. A second vote to go to 13 weights also failed.
No further action on reducing weight classes is expected by the MSHSL. The only chance for a possible reduction would likely have to be mandated by the National Federation of State High School Associations.
Texas and Montana, with 15, are the only two states that have more weight classes than Minnesota.
In a survey done by the MSHSL with different sizes of programs around the state, 130 schools voted to reduce the number of weight classes, while 96 voted to keep it the same.
The smaller schools in the state are more in favor of a reduction to 12 weight classes because it's much harder for them to fill the current 14.
Breaking the survey down by class, Class 1A teams voted 51-31 in favor of fewer weights, while the 2A schools voted 59-33 for it.Among 3A schools, such as Prior Lake, the vote was 32-20 against a reduction.
In other MSHSL news, there will be mercy rules instituted for football and boys and girls basketball that will take effect for the 2008-09 school year.
In football, if a team has a lead of 35 points or more, there will be running time in the fourth quarter.In basketball, running time will take place in the final nine minutes of the game if a team has that big of lead.
However, in both sports, if the point spread falls below 30 points, regular time will be used.
In golf, the sites for the state tournaments have been established. This is the first spring where there will be three classes in golf, which has been increased from two.
The Class 3A boys and girls tournaments will be June 3-4 at their annual site, Bunker Hills Golf Club in Coon Rapids.The 2A tournaments will be June 5-6 at the Ridges of Sand Creek Golf Course in Jordan, while the 1A tourneys will be June 4-5 at Pebble Creek Golf Course in Becker.

I think it is interesting. If we are so beholden to the national weights, maybe the nation should be looking too? Iowa's small schools have worse of a time filling weights than we do. Minnesota has JHI and the majority of their coaches want 12 weights. Look at the state tournaments of some states, where kids with no record, or a losing record make it to state.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

IMO, to be kind of close to the numbers you calculated (thanks BTW, good stuff) and be fan friendly, I'd propose 105, 115, and then college weights.  Full disclosure, I like watching the little guys wrestle even if they are underclassmen.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 01:37:23 PM
If your doing it on a bell curve I would exclude freshman to insure upper class man that have put in more time and have more on the line are not being cut. Plus you should take a look at other sports to get a fair % of how many freshman start on Varsity to insure we are kicking off the right kids from Varsity.
To do a reshuffle it would require the numbers to stay equal but to be reassigned.
A 15% reduction just qualifies as a cut, we are cutting kids let's not hide behind Babel...
As a business man when ever I make cuts I readjust my budgets.
What does the average coach make a season so we can make the adjustments, shorter work period and less clients has to be accounted for.
Plus less spectators at dual and a state, we should look into getting a smaller venue for state to help off set expenses. We could probably move it in to a D3 collage and save a ton.

Why would you want to exclude 9th graders who are part of high school sports?
Plus just because other sports have fewer 9th or 10th graders does not mean we should do the same.  Additionally, it depends upon the quality of program and it is more difficult or less difficult in different sports at different schools to "make the team".

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 01:37:23 PM
If your doing it on a bell curve I would exclude freshman to insure upper class man that have put in more time and have more on the line are not being cut. Plus you should take a look at other sports to get a fair % of how many freshman start on Varsity to insure we are kicking off the right kids from Varsity.
To do a reshuffle it would require the numbers to stay equal but to be reassigned.
A 15% reduction just qualifies as a cut, we are cutting kids let's not hide behind Babel...
As a business man when ever I make cuts I readjust my budgets.
What does the average coach make a season so we can make the adjustments, shorter work period and less clients has to be accounted for.
Plus less spectators at dual and a state, we should look into getting a smaller venue for state to help off set expenses. We could probably move it in to a D3 collage and save a ton.

School and high school sports is not business.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Do you realize at 112 you are at the 50th percentile for 9th grade high school students?

Quote from: MNbadger on April 12, 2016, 01:58:53 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Do you realize at 112 you are at the 50th percentile for 9th grade high school students?

Not according to the data that I have from Wisconsin wrestlers.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 01:55:01 PM
Ghetto,
Does it show body fat and weigh ins by grade and weight.
The proposal you illustrated protects my son and I still hate the idea.
Obviously I am not in favor of cutting coaches pay nor am I in favor of cutting kids, but reality is it will have to go hand in hand. And in many D1 high schools booster money is distributed equally by partisapation numbers to all after school activitys so less kids means less money to wrestling.

Where do you see this?

My data is just weights from the day they did the bodyfat testing.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 02:05:17 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on April 12, 2016, 01:58:53 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285

But if we want to increase numbers we should be catering to all students.  This the same argument someone on another thread stated that he did not think most college 125 pounders could make 118.  Of course not, they are 125 pounders!  Teh 118 pounders left the sport or never appeared because there weight class is/was gone.
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Do you realize at 112 you are at the 50th percentile for 9th grade high school students?

Not according to the data that I have from Wisconsin wrestlers.

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 02:05:17 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on April 12, 2016, 01:58:53 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Do you realize at 112 you are at the 50th percentile for 9th grade high school students?

Not according to the data that I have from Wisconsin wrestlers.

But we should be catering to all students if we want to increase participation.
this is somewhat similar to another thread where someone was saying that he did not think any college 125er could make 118.  Of course not, they are 125ers!  The 118 pounders left the sport(and quit appearing) when the college weights were bumped up five pounds and their weight class disappeared.

The median weight of Wisconsin wrestlers in 2012 was 149.8

That's not close to 112.

I wrestled 98. I am very passionate about little guys. I consider myself a little guy coach. That said, there aren't a ton of kids that small wrestling. Is it because the weight has risen, IDK.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 02:02:07 PM
My point is the fair way to cut is by weight and age.
I would hate to see a weight class loaded with seniors but maybe light on total numbers get cut just to insure a freshman gets his varsity letter.
Again why would we even want to cut kids out of the sport??

I just don't agree that we are cutting kids out of the sport if we change the weight from 132 to 137. We are reducing varsity opportunities if we go to less weights.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 02:21:22 PM
The lighter weights can still wrestle JV, while they are getting bigger/faster/stronger just like in all the other sports. OR We Can Just Keep What We Have and improve the experience to attract more athletes to come out.
Don't forget most teams still have a JV squad.

So can the kids that don't make varsity at every other weight in the lineup.

This just hit me... what if kids started transferring because they didn't fill a weight at School X, and went to School Y? Parity baby!!! More good duals. More opportunities!

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:10:13 PM

If you take the amount of kids, and divide them into 14 equal categories, the lowest weight is not 106. If you (or anyone) can explain to me how to make a bell curve graph in Excel, I would certainly appreciate it.

I am a little guy (was) but I am in support of putting weights where the kids are. If the 106 weight class doesn't make sense, then sadly I'm not for it.

There were 43 kids in the last five years who weighed 82 or less out of 43,000. That's a pretty small percentage. 146 kids weighed 88 or less. Neither needs a weight class. To me, dividing the weights according to where they lie makes more sense than a bell curve.

A Bell Curve for Wrestlers Weights

In column A "Weight Categories" enter the weight categories for high school wrestling (106,113,120,126,132,138,145,152,160,170,182,195,220,185)
In the column B "# of wrestlers" enter the # of wrestlers that participate at each weight class. At the bottom after the last entry get a total of wrestlers.  (=sum(highlight all the boxes with entries)
In column C  "% of wrestlers"

You can then graph the actual numbers of wrestlers or the % of wrestlers by weight class.

Highlight the B or C  column. Then click on "insert", in the charts section you will see I symbol with dots everywhere, this is the symbol for a scatter plot; click on it, excel will prompt you with options, pick the first symbol in the second line . this is the one with the dots connected by straight lines.


The chart will appear.  The # of wrestlers or the % (depending on what you graphed) will be on your "Y" axis and each of the 14 rows on the "x" axis will represent the 14 weight classes. To make the X axis columns show the actual weight classes, right click on the your line on the graph.  

A box titled, "Select Data Source " will appear, click the edit box

A box called "Edit Series" will appear . Click the Blue and red square symbol to the left of the x values. Your data source (# of wrestlers or % will turn gray) then highlight the weight class columns, hit " enter"
then click "ok"
The "select data source" box will reappear, click OK.


Cleaning up the chart:
Right Click on numerical labels on axis, then click "format axis" . You can reset your bounds .

Good Luck
I apologize for typos or misspellings I typed this fairly fast on my break and off my memory.

If the WWCA would actually push for JHI and be adamant with the WIAA (after all they are the governing body working FOR the schools) don't people think that might be worth trying before cutting weight classes?  Not just to fill some spots in the lower weights but the possibility of improved participation and better development. 

Barou, You aren't getting it. The WIAA will not approve JHI for wrestling.
It would need to have coaches from all sports to the A.D.'s and the A.D.'s pushing for it.
And...Apparently, the WWCA either understands this process, or simply decided that they didn't want to include it (or double elim) into the survey.

Whats really sad is we have coaches here in Wisconsin wasting 7 pages of why we should cut weight classes and not a single one of them has started a thread about what we can do to attract and keep more wrestlers to the sport....not a single thread about what are the successful schools doing to be successful...not a single thread about how to get administrations to get on board and buy into your programs, not a single thread about building of good middle school programs and the things Kuakauna, LC, Coleman and others are doing to change middle school wrestling.....I guess its just easier to cut weight classes and hope we can field a team...its pretty sad.  I spent the weekend with a bunch of Illinois wrestling families...Illinios is miles ahead of us right now...not one of them and many are coaches thought cutting weight classes was a good idea.  States like Tennessee, Georgia Texas and Maryland are passing us up because we are more interested in cutting weight classes than actually doing things that will grow the sport.  Again Sad!!!

What would be the strategy behind reducing weight classes? To have less forfeits??

What would happen to overall wrestling numbers if you reduce weight classes? Anyone disagree the participation numbers would go down?

What would happen if participation numbers go down? Would all of those athletes go out for another sport?

Are we looking for better competition? Let's admit the elite wrestlers are getting the better competition at Fargo not their individual state tournament.

My two points:
1) This is high school sports - shouldn't we be more concerned with participation and getting kids involved then making for better dual meets?
2) More participants = higher probability of improving the sport. Let's focus on improving the sport and attracting more people to it.

As a parent of a small kid I definitely have skin in this game - so don't want to hide that.

Respectfully - what would we get out of fewer weight classes? I am not trying to be a jerk...I just don't understand the WHY???

Quote from: MNbadger on April 12, 2016, 01:58:53 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Do you realize at 112 you are at the 50th percentile for 9th grade high school students?

I have a hard time believing 50% of 9th grade boys weigh less than 112.

Amen Aarons!!!!

What did Neenah do well recently to change the tide?
How about Slinger?
And Hortonville?
How about the resurgence in Kenosha Schools?
Lake Geneva Badger wasn't always a perennial power...not too shabby over the last 8 years?
Elkhorn seems to be able to field a full, competitive team lately?
Evansville sure seems pretty solid year in, year out
That Beloit Turner team seems to be improving tremendously.

There are others that I'm sure I am missing.....what is the common ingredient in these schools dramatic improvement recently?  These coaches are doing something different, and it has little to do with a "wrestling culture", JHI, or the number of weight classes.

Quote from: bigoil on April 12, 2016, 04:30:59 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on April 12, 2016, 01:58:53 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on April 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Here's what I did...

There were 8007 kids who bodyfat tested in 2015-2016. I divided 8007 by 14. That gives you 572. I then started at the bottom and counted up 572, then another 572 and so on until the 13th weight class. I just thought 285 was a good ending point, so that is the last weight class. Because more kids weigh in the middle weight area, the weights are closer together.

Here's 2011-12, distributed in that way... 8946 kids bodyfatted, divided into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups.

14 weights: 112, 121, 128, 134, 139, 145, 150, 156, 163, 172, 183, 199, 224, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 129, 136, 141, 147, 153, 160, 169, 176, 196, 221, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 176, 193, 218, 285

Do you realize at 112 you are at the 50th percentile for 9th grade high school students?

I have a hard time believing 50% of 9th grade boys weigh less than 112.

Oil, se the CDC link provided in my earlier post.  I am sure in some places kids may be heavier than others, not to mention we have not even considered fat %.

Looking at this another way.... we have many of our weight classes where the kids aren't.  A hypothetical comparison would be boy's basketball deciding to only allow kids 6' 5" tall or better to play.  Numbers wold drop in a hurry and they would struggle to field teams everywhere.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 03:30:26 PM
I know that Handles true agenda is to get JHI, which I support 100%. Where we part in our opinions is cutting, I am against it with ever fiber of my body.
So it's time to ask Woody with the WIAA why no JHI like 40% of the nation has gone to.
Woody what is the main logistical issue with JHI in WI?

I can not answer that as I am a Subcontractor to the WIAA for the State Tournaments.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 03:30:26 PM
I know that Handles true agenda is to get JHI, which I support 100%. Where we part in our opinions is cutting, I am against it with ever fiber of my body.
So it's time to ask Woody with the WIAA why no JHI like 40% of the nation has gone to.
Woody what is the main logistical issue with JHI in WI?

I didnt realize it was 40% of the other states. I cannt find a link to show those 40% of states, do you have it so I can look please.

Thanks

Quote from: aarons23 on April 12, 2016, 03:23:58 PM
Whats really sad is we have coaches here in Wisconsin wasting 7 pages of why we should cut weight classes and not a single one of them has started a thread about what we can do to attract and keep more wrestlers to the sport....not a single thread about what are the successful schools doing to be successful...not a single thread about how to get administrations to get on board and buy into your programs, not a single thread about building of good middle school programs and the things Kuakauna, LC, Coleman and others are doing to change middle school wrestling.....I guess its just easier to cut weight classes and hope we can field a team...its pretty sad.  I spent the weekend with a bunch of Illinois wrestling families...Illinios is miles ahead of us right now...not one of them and many are coaches thought cutting weight classes was a good idea.  States like Tennessee, Georgia Texas and Maryland are passing us up because we are more interested in cutting weight classes than actually doing things that will grow the sport.  Again Sad!!!

What are some of your ideas in making the sport grow?

Please start a thread with some ideas to incourage kids to come out for wrestling. Take the lead on this, please!

Quote from: littleguy301 on April 12, 2016, 06:28:25 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on April 12, 2016, 03:23:58 PM
Whats really sad is we have coaches here in Wisconsin wasting 7 pages of why we should cut weight classes and not a single one of them has started a thread about what we can do to attract and keep more wrestlers to the sport....not a single thread about what are the successful schools doing to be successful...not a single thread about how to get administrations to get on board and buy into your programs, not a single thread about building of good middle school programs and the things Kuakauna, LC, Coleman and others are doing to change middle school wrestling.....I guess its just easier to cut weight classes and hope we can field a team...its pretty sad.  I spent the weekend with a bunch of Illinois wrestling families...Illinios is miles ahead of us right now...not one of them and many are coaches thought cutting weight classes was a good idea.  States like Tennessee, Georgia Texas and Maryland are passing us up because we are more interested in cutting weight classes than actually doing things that will grow the sport.  Again Sad!!!

What are some of your ideas in making the sport grow?

Please start a thread with some ideas to incourage kids to come out for wrestling. Take the lead on this, please!

Nah...its just easier to cut weight classes.  Just follow this thread.

Quote from: madeyson on April 12, 2016, 04:02:14 PM
What would be the strategy behind reducing weight classes? To have less forfeits??

YES

What would happen to overall wrestling numbers if you reduce weight classes? Anyone disagree the participation numbers would go down?

THERE'S NO WAY OF KNOWING UNTIL WE TRY. THERE WERE 12 WEIGHTS IN 1988 AND THERE WERE MORE PARTICIPANTS THEN.

What would happen if participation numbers go down? Would all of those athletes go out for another sport?

THEY ARE ALREADY GOING DOWN, AND FAST. 900 LESS KIDS BODYFAT TESTED THIS YEAR THAN IN 2012

Are we looking for better competition? Let's admit the elite wrestlers are getting the better competition at Fargo not their individual state tournament.

AT LEAST FOR ME, I'M LOOKING AT WRESTLING AS A WHOLE. THE ELITE WILL STILL BE THE ELITE.

My two points:
1) This is high school sports - shouldn't we be more concerned with participation and getting kids involved then making for better dual meets?
IS IT POSSIBLE THAT BETTER DUAL MEETS WOULD GET MORE KIDS INVOLVED?
2) More participants = higher probability of improving the sport. Let's focus on improving the sport and attracting more people to it.
AGREED. MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP BLAMING COACHES FOR WHAT THEY AREN'T DOING. MAYBE THEY ARE. MAYBE THE SYSTEM IS FLAWED?

As a parent of a small kid I definitely have skin in this game - so don't want to hide that.
SAME HERE

Respectfully - what would we get out of fewer weight classes? I am not trying to be a jerk...I just don't understand the WHY???

POSSIBLY BETTER DUAL MEETS, WHICH COULD LEAD TO PEOPLE GETTING EXCITED ABOUT THE SPORT IN THEIR SCHOOL AND MORE KIDS COMING OUT. MORE MARQUEE MATCHES, WHERE KIDS HAVE TO WRESTLE OTHER GREAT KIDS, WHICH MIGHT BRING BUTTS TO SEATS, WHICH MIGHT PUT MORE KIDS IN THE ROOM. MORE MATCHES AT KIDS LEVELS, SO SOME TRULY JV KIDS CAN WRESTLE AT THEIR LEVEL AND POSSIBLY NOT QUIT.

How can anyone possibly look past the huge reduction in numbers and not want to try to change the system? I'll never apologize for thinking we have too many weights. Again, we had 8946 body fat test in 2012. 8007 this year, and the trend is on the way down.

Do we need to recruit better? Yes. As a sport we need to do a better job. We need to start right now.

Citing specific examples of schools isn't indicative of the entire state. There are some schools that do an amazing job of keeping tradition alive. I think that's awesome. Good for you. How about, instead of putting coaches down, you tell us what it is that you do, and possibly go to the WWCA and do a "professional development" on how you do things? Has anyone ever done that? I am pretty sure it hasn't been done. If you really care about wrestling, more than the program you work for, you'd help do something about the huge decline in numbers, instead of saying that others are inferior.

Quote from: aarons23 on April 12, 2016, 07:18:04 PM

Quote from: littleguy301 on April 12, 2016, 06:28:25 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on April 12, 2016, 03:23:58 PM
Whats really sad is we have coaches here in Wisconsin wasting 7 pages of why we should cut weight classes and not a single one of them has started a thread about what we can do to attract and keep more wrestlers to the sport....not a single thread about what are the successful schools doing to be successful...not a single thread about how to get administrations to get on board and buy into your programs, not a single thread about building of good middle school programs and the things Kuakauna, LC, Coleman and others are doing to change middle school wrestling.....I guess its just easier to cut weight classes and hope we can field a team...its pretty sad.  I spent the weekend with a bunch of Illinois wrestling families...Illinios is miles ahead of us right now...not one of them and many are coaches thought cutting weight classes was a good idea.  States like Tennessee, Georgia Texas and Maryland are passing us up because we are more interested in cutting weight classes than actually doing things that will grow the sport.  Again Sad!!!

What are some of your ideas in making the sport grow?

Please start a thread with some ideas to incourage kids to come out for wrestling. Take the lead on this, please!

Nah...its just easier to cut weight classes.  Just follow this thread.

I am asking an honest question. Yes there is to much talk on cutting weights and since you are against it and very open, I am taking the time to ask you what you think would work to get the sport growing? Seriously I bet you have some good ideas that maybe someone on here might use to get more kids out in their respective area.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 12, 2016, 08:57:24 PM
Ghetto,
1. Get kids out early, basketball starts at age 5.
2. Get the parents bought in, traveling tournaments and social events. The coaches have to be there to hang with the young family's.

3. High school kids need to help recruit at the youth level, get the varsity guys to coach in the corners the kids eat it up.
4. Organize trips to the NCAA and the Olympic trials.
5. Get your top middle schoolers in the varsity practice a couple times a week.
6. Get on social media with all your wrestlers, watch them and befriend them and mom and dad.
7. Partner with a privet club, go help during GR/FS.
8. Go with to Fargo.
9. Create a great wrestling booster club.
10. If your to old to do that stuff, quit and find a cool young coach and numbers will go up.

1. I think most school clubs do get kids to start at around age 5
2. Great idea and should be done more. Getting the family additude when the kids are young and building relationships with parents that are positive.
3. That is another great idea. I will say though, that getting the high school kids there becomes tricky. Some dont have liscense to drive and others have jobs or after the high school season some are in other sports or their club freestyle/greco are at the same time
4. Well I am down with that but for the trials it is only every 4 years. NCAA, the cost could be out of the question for parents and coaches. Maybe watching on TV in a home as a group!
5. Another top flight idea though some school do have rules about middle school age kids being in the rule with the high schools and does the WIAA allow that?
6. Maybe not with the actually wrestlers but with parents. being an adult coach friending a teenager could be high on the creepy level plus really dont want to know what that student is up to unless it is your own child.
7. Another awesome idea. Cost could be an issue and location of clubs in certain areas could also be a problem. Though working with another school is high on the list if possible.
8. Well cost is another thing here. Unless your a Wisconsin coach, your not going to do much for that wrestler. That is a lot to ask of a coach that has family that may have other plans. Great idea and would be awesome but realisticly it could be a money situation.
9. Alot of schools have booster club. Be involved with those clubs as much as you can be and that will help out alot!
10. Problem is your probably right but finding that younger coach is an issue also. Many people that want to coach also hold outside jobs and usually those outside jobs kind of dictate when you can come and go and if your not going to be able to get to the school until late into the evening that could be a the kiss of death for the program. Sometimes you may have a coach that doesnt go above and beyound but they are still better than not having a coach.

Lots of great idea though I have to add that some maybe in the unicorn area but if you want to have sucess many of these ideas should be in place.

What would happen to overall wrestling numbers if you reduce weight classes? Anyone disagree the participation numbers would go down?

THERE'S NO WAY OF KNOWING UNTIL WE TRY. THERE WERE 12 WEIGHTS IN 1988 AND THERE WERE MORE PARTICIPANTS THEN.

The generational differences between our youth in 1988 and today has a lot more to do with this then the # of weight classes. Wasn't the lowest class then 98#?


AGREED. MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP BLAMING COACHES FOR WHAT THEY AREN'T DOING. MAYBE THEY ARE. MAYBE THE SYSTEM IS FLAWED?
I hope my comments were not viewed as blaming coaches! Quite frankly we as parents and supporters of the sport need to be much more part of the solution then coaches. Yes we need to make changes to the system - I just can't think how less weight classes improves the sport.

Also - if WI has different weight classes then the rest of the country - how does a tournament like the Cheesehead work? Seems like it would create a lot of complexity. I think that tournament by itself has been one of the best things to happen to WI wrestling over the past 10+ years.

Quote from: Handles II on April 12, 2016, 02:48:33 PM
Barou, You aren't getting it. The WIAA will not approve JHI for wrestling.
It would need to have coaches from all sports to the A.D.'s and the A.D.'s pushing for it.
And...Apparently, the WWCA either understands this process, or simply decided that they didn't want to include it (or double elim) into the survey.

I think you're right that I'm not getting it.  Common sense legislation and evidence based rules and regulations make too much sense to me and I forget how some people refuse to consider that.  The WIAA has always been an anchor to wrestling and they are a closed-minded, arrogant group that would rather seek recognition to being national pioneers on a sportsmanship issue that didn't exist.  That's where their priorities begin.  JHI is about OPPORTUNITY for student athletes that is being executed successfully in other states.  Not like anyone is asking the WIAA to reinvent the wheel.  There would be new logistics to figure out so more work, it's called doing your job.  I thought the backlash would be the reality check they needed and they would become a more humble and open group (as they are supposed to be anyway).  They're not. 

As for the WWCA don't back down to those narcissists.  If you don't believe in the JHI opportunities, so be it, continue to slow down progress and don't bring it up since it's "not worth it".  If you do believe, be vocal and present the case.

Quote from: madeyson on April 13, 2016, 07:29:05 AM


What would happen to overall wrestling numbers if you reduce weight classes? Anyone disagree the participation numbers would go down?

THERE'S NO WAY OF KNOWING UNTIL WE TRY. THERE WERE 12 WEIGHTS IN 1988 AND THERE WERE MORE PARTICIPANTS THEN.

The generational differences between our youth in 1988 and today has a lot more to do with this then the # of weight classes. Wasn't the lowest class then 98#?


AGREED. MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP BLAMING COACHES FOR WHAT THEY AREN'T DOING. MAYBE THEY ARE. MAYBE THE SYSTEM IS FLAWED?
I hope my comments were not viewed as blaming coaches! Quite frankly we as parents and supporters of the sport need to be much more part of the solution then coaches. Yes we need to make changes to the system - I just can't think how less weight classes improves the sport.

Also - if WI has different weight classes then the rest of the country - how does a tournament like the Cheesehead work? Seems like it would create a lot of complexity. I think that tournament by itself has been one of the best things to happen to WI wrestling over the past 10+ years.

Agreed that there is a generational difference. There are tons more opportunities now than there were in 1988, yet we added more weights to fill.

I was not referring to you when I mentioned that there should be less blame, and more information.

I believe that more exciting duals, and allowing kids to wrestle JV when that is where they belong, will help retain and build numbers. Dropping weight classes does that IMO.

I don't have any doubts that if WI would drop weights and adjust them to best fit the student population that we are working with, that other states would follow suit, or at least pressure the NFHS to do the same. The numbers have been posted to show that we aren't the only state struggling to fill weights. AZ certainly is struggling more than WI for numbers of participants and programs so while those individuals might not think WI is a top state, A. maybe we never really were B. Maybe their perception is flawed. Many of our D3 college wrestlers could perform at the D2 and even lower caliber D1 programs.

But facts do remain that we have a huge problem with K-8 kids dropping this sport like a bad transmission.

While many are for dropping weights and some are not for dropping weights. Quite a range, but I would like to give those that are not for dropping weights a little inside on what some coaches and such are dealing with from the schools.

1. When an AD that is not a wrestling person goes to a wrestling dual and sees their school team forfeiting 4-5 weights that is not a good sign. Money to that sport starts to dwindle and not good either. Most AD goes under that field a team aspect like baseball and football. If you cannt put out 5 kids in basketball or 11 kids in football then there is a serious problem.

2. look at football now, is it going to be next year that the WIAA offically has 9 man as part of the 2 day state championships. If not next year it will be the year after. In order to continue football at certain school they lessen the number that play so that the majority can continue to play.

3. Numbers are declining in ALL sports. Well the sports that have become part of the WIAA over the past couple of years like bowling and such are seeing some good numbers but they are new also. There is a culture change going on in youth sports and high school sports that kids are not going out for these sports like they did in the past.

4. I dont think any one that is looking for less weight classes wants to cut out chances for for ANYONE to be able to do that sport. I think it is a direct counter to the AD are seeing a team not filling out the classes and they only way to defend to a school AD that doesnt understand what is going on.

5. Also many do believe that cutting a couple of chances is way better than cutting everyones chances.

I am one that would love to see wrestling grow like mad but in certain areas it is not and this day and age of watching budgets and how school need every last penny, it have become difficult to sell a sport that doesnt field a full lineup to the administration and school board.

Any ideas as to make wrestling grow would be appriecated because I believe that some coaches and schools have exshauted most ideas.

Parkside is pretty much WI kids correct? So therefore Wi kids can compete at the D2 level. Some of the Parkside kids could compete at a D1 level depending on the program and conference. Just as some of our D3 kids could also compete at a D2 or D1 level. That's the point I was making. But if your (pointless) argument is if a D3 team could beat Parkside, well,UWW did in '14 and '15.  

Points,

If I'm not mistaken, you have taken your kids out of certain clubs and put them in others right? Privit clubs as you often endorse You think this is the best thing for them though you can't be 100% sure if this is true, since we can't live in two parallel universes at the same time and we can't predict the future.

According to the survey, it sounds like the majority of  head coaches have looked at the information that they have access to and believe that reducing the number of weights will in theory be better for their wrestlers and wrestling in general in this state. So are you going to tell those coaches that they can't have that opinion? That they shouldn't do what they believe would be best for their teams and the sport that they love and want to help succeed? I don't believe WI head coaches had a say in going to 14 weights. I believe that was a change done by the NFHS and the WIAA adopted it without any real input. So now, after 15 years of having 14 weights, perhaps these coaches should have a say and be listened to. They are the ones in the trenches, recruiting, etc. Right?

I haven't said much on this topic, but here are a few opinions.

I'm not in favor of cutting weights.

I think the weight cutting rules are insane, they encourage cutting weight more than anything.

I think that allowing 7th and eighth grades to practice with the varsity would be a good thing.

Thinking wrestlers are going to get experience on JV is silly, when so few schools have very many wrestlers for JV, and will they match up in weight with your JV wrestlers?

As I understand the WIAA is not affiliated with the public school system. So why are they making the rules for us. If the coaches association passes a rule why can't it stand?

Some radical ideas but maybe that's we need. JMO

Dale Jauquet

So many on here have a huge passion for wrestling and have kids that are "elite" and wrestle year round.

We cannot build the sport around them or even cater to them because they will always be there.  In fact most don't even like the present system and want even more training and tournaments and the private clubs have filled that role.  Nothing wrong with any of that.

But the sport is probably 90% filled with kids that just wrestle for the fun of it and wrestle for 3-4 months a year.  They are different in every way from the elite kids.  They want fewer weekends and shorter seasons, etc and now we know coaches do.  Wrestling needs its high school season and its "AAU" season like basketball.  Shortening the season by the WIAA will not shorten the season for the elites because they will still train and go to other tournaments.

Bringing up the Cheesehead as an issue to be solved is silly because it affects such an absolute small minority.  There is nothing better than the Cheesehead but we can create rules with a specific elite tourney in mind.

Kind of like in an earlier thread someone said something that we need to recruit more and gets kids to Fargo, etc and I just laughed.  90% of high school teams will not have a kid even good enough to compete in Fargo.  That is the last thing on the mind of coaches in those communities.  They dream of having a kid that could compete in Fargo.

Wrestling systemic rules need to focus on the bottom 90% and not the top 10% if you want to increase participation.  

Quote from: thequad on April 13, 2016, 02:24:06 PM


I think that allowing 7th and eighth grades to practice with the varsity would be a good thing.

Just practice? 

Quote from: Barou on April 13, 2016, 02:52:57 PM

Quote from: thequad on April 13, 2016, 02:24:06 PM


I think that allowing 7th and eighth grades to practice with the varsity would be a good thing.

Just practice? 

I think this was covered in years past, and at least 8th graders (can't remember about 7th) can already practice with HS according to the WIAA.
Anyone recall this???

Simply put.  The overwhelming majority of high school athletes just want to have fun AND be part of a team.  This is why basketball always has guys sitting on the bench all season that NEVER play.

In wrestling we want everyone on VARSITY.

Objective #1
Improve the team concept in wrestling.  Fewer weight classes makes duals more competitive with fewer forfeits, fewer mismatches, etc.  Dual outcomes will be less predictable.  Fans will come to see matches and will enjoy team race.  Yes I know the top 10% of teams will still dominate.  Again this is not about the top 10%.  Fewer varsity wrestlers means more on JV and improves a JV team experience.  Every time schools get together to compete the goal should be to have a varsity dual and a JV dual not just one huge varsity dual with so many weight classes.

Right now wrestlers are truly not on a team competing until varsity.  That is is why we lose a ton of wrestlers.  They are happy to battle for the team.  Even if they lose the team might win.

The true problem to me is that so many in wrestling consider it to be an individual sport.  The best programs embrace the team concept.  They end up with more wrestlers which leads to more and better practice partners which leads to better wrestlers.

Honestly after thinking of this over and over, I truly believe that going to 10 weights would be in the best interest of the sport.  That is not happening so maybe 12 is a good compromise but to truly achieve the objective I laid out above you probably have to go to 10 weights.  Maybe 115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 195, 285.  A lot more kids fit in those weight classes and a lot more would be able to wrestle without cutting weight.  I would drop every weight class by 5-10 lbs for different JV weight classes.

JV has always been for primarily younger participants because they cannot compete with upperclassmen based on maturity and skill.  We should have lighter weight classes for JV duals.  Younger kids weigh less. 

If you just think about it, 10 weight classes is hard enough to fill when you have to find 10 kids that all can weigh different amounts and have the skill to compete at the varsity level.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 13, 2016, 04:43:36 PM
Again Doc very good points.
Just last night I had a very good high school coach tell me that JV is the key. This state champion coach who is recruiting in the hall none stop told me if he asks a kid to come out for varsity the almost always so no. When he asks them to be on JV they almost always agree, but the JV season in wrestling is awful.

So Doc if we were the only state to drop weight classes and have to pull out of a national events would you still want to do it?

Why would you have to pull out of national events?  If they have 14 weight classes then you go there with a lineup with 14 weight classes.  That would be easy for WI teams.  It might hurt the opposite way with teams coming to the Cheesehead as they would have to adjust to 12 weight classes.  The teams that come to the cheesehead already have different rules in their state that are not the same as ours in terms of 1/2lb rule and 7% rule, etc.  Pretty sure Michigan teams and WI teams compete against each other up North and they have different weight classes.  How do they do it?

Question;   Can I run a varsity tournament with making up my own weight classes?  JV tournaments do it all the time?  Is the standard set by the NFHS and followed by the WIAA have to be followed by non-WIAA events.  Earlier this year it was said that you could run a tournament and use 2-2-2 periods for every match.  I don't want to change the weight classes for one tourney but just wondering how these mandates work down to locally run high school and club tournaments?  Is their just extra liability if you don't follow the rules.

Honestly I could care less what other states were doing.  If I thought it would help this state why would I hold it hostage because of less than 1% of the high school matches would be affected against out of state competition.

Other states are considering.  It is going to take one state with leadership to lead the way and others will follow.  Honestly, I did not know that Michigan had different weight classes until just recently.  I respect their leadership for not following if that is what they thought was best for them.  I don't think it is negatively affecting those kids high school wrestling experiences just because they have different weight classes.

I don't care about different state rules and I would not care if D3 voted to go with 10 weight classes and D1 went with 12.  It could still work for team duals and team state.

I am fine with 12 weights for duals and 14 for individual state tournament.  Make the best of both worlds helping the team aspect and still keep an individual format to allow more kids to state and be champions.  i have no problem with that.

We could use Ghetto's idea and use fat test weights and the weight classes change every year based on that data.

We do not have to be rigid.

I don't disagree but am not afraid of change.  Cut weight classes and "fix" everything else (do it all) and then just maybe in 8-9 years we are again talking about adding weight classes due to increased participation.

Worst case scenario is in 8-9 years we have 20-50 fewer high school wrestling teams because they will go fast once conferences in D2 and D3 have fewer and fewer schools with wrestling.  If a conference used to have teams and now has 5 and loses another 1-2 or then those remaining teams cannot really survive either.  What used to be 6-8 team conferences will become one 6-8 team co-op.  This is kind of what the WIAA is worried about when allowing small teams to practice together without a co-op so they do not have to move up a division.

In regards to JHI. First off, I was fortunate to be voted in to serve two terms as district rep in the 90's and another when I ran in 2012. Served a term as Pres-elect and now in my first year as President of the WWCA. In all these years that I was fortunate enough to serve, to my recollection, I have never received an email, letter or phone call regarding a desire for junior high inclusion. In the last few months I have sent out two surveys to head coaches in the state and received more than 400 responses between the two. In looking back through the comments section on those surveys I saw only one coach ask if there was a chance of 8th graders ever being able to compete in high school. Last years survey to the division 2 and 3 coaches came back with a few dozen comments, suggestions and questions but none regarding JHI.

Currently the Medical Advisory board to the WIAA is adamantly against the inclusion of 7th and 8th graders into varsity sports and especially so in the sports of football, hockey, and wrestling. IMO until those doctors, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that serve on that board are compelled to change their findings, I don't see the WIAA going against them and JHI will probably not happen soon. Especially without a large percentage of Principals, Athletic Directors, and other sports pushing to get it through in all high school athletics.

Not saying it is a bad idea, but I would say a place to start is where alot of these ideas and suggestions get traction and that is through your head coaches and your WWCA District Reps. That is where a number of recent changes started, some recent ideas like 2 piece uniforms are proposed, and future considerations like double elimination can get a possible foothold.

Quote from: Coach Q on April 14, 2016, 12:53:58 PM
In regards to JHI. First off, I was fortunate to be voted in to serve two terms as district rep in the 90's and another when I ran in 2012. Served a term as Pres-elect and now in my first year as President of the WWCA. In all these years that I was fortunate enough to serve, to my recollection, I have never received an email, letter or phone call regarding a desire for junior high inclusion. In the last few months I have sent out two surveys to head coaches in the state and received more than 400 responses between the two. In looking back through the comments section on those surveys I saw only one coach ask if there was a chance of 8th graders ever being able to compete in high school. Last years survey to the division 2 and 3 coaches came back with a few dozen comments, suggestions and questions but none regarding JHI.

Currently the Medical Advisory board to the WIAA is adamantly against the inclusion of 7th and 8th graders into varsity sports and especially so in the sports of football, hockey, and wrestling. IMO until those doctors, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that serve on that board are compelled to change their findings, I don't see the WIAA going against them and JHI will probably not happen soon. Especially without a large percentage of Principals, Athletic Directors, and other sports pushing to get it through in all high school athletics.

Not saying it is a bad idea, but I would say a place to start is where alot of these ideas and suggestions get traction and that is through your head coaches and your WWCA District Reps. That is where a number of recent changes started, some recent ideas like 2 piece uniforms are proposed, and future considerations like double elimination can get a possible foothold.

Appreciate the post as unfortunate as the information is.  I certainly wouldn't expect much from Principals and AD's around the state but I thought our WI wrestling coaches were informed of JHI's role in multiple states across the country and the benefits JHI brings to the table.  I would especially have thought that WI coaches that compete in Minnesota and/or against Minnesota schools would have a positive impression.  Maybe they do and maybe they don't care.  Or maybe they see it's a no-win situation to push in WI.  I honestly thought coaches in WI were more proactive to things that would improve our sport.

I do find the Medical Advisory Board's finding ridiculous.  Why would wrestling be one of the sports they are "adamantly" against inclusion of 7th and 8th graders?  It's a sport matching kids of the same size.  Hard to believe that Minnesota doesn't find it medically necessary to oppose junior high inclusion for all sports but Wisconsin does?  Really?  NY and Minnesota for sure are two states way more competitive in wrestling than WI.  I've read about an 8th grade running back starting for a Florida HS.  Florida HS football is WAY better than WI football...not even close.  I'm no physician so normally it's easy to defer to a medical advisory board's findings and recommendations but it's already being done with other states and they have been utilizing JHI years.  Not reinventing the wheel here.  We must defy the laws of anatomy and physiology in WI compared to MN, Kentucky, Florida, etc. 

Again, the information is appreciative.  On my end it's probably not even worth bringing up.  If the coaches in the state don't even think about it and don't comment about it, they simply don't care about it.

I don't know Barou, we could argue this at the ends of the spectrum, but if I just go find an average 130 pound wrestler who is 12 years old and an average 130 pound wrestler who is 17 years old - I would be pretty nervous about letting those two individuals compete against each other.  I'm frankly surprised that many states allow varsity-level JHI.

I think it is unquestionable that JHI would help the best wrestlers leave high school even better. 
I also think that there might be considerations at play besides what's good for the best wrestlers - and when people drop that magical "s" word "safety", it's a pretty big hurdle to clear.

Coach Q...here is your first "letter/email/phone call" for JHI. It seems you get good response. How about posing this question to the members of WWCA:

Would you be in favor of JHI for HS wrestling in Wisconsin? Please answer "YES" or "NO" and please let us know why you vote either way.

I have been on this forum since 2008. I just read Coach Q's comments. I am shocked. I believe EVERY year since 2008 there has been a VERY long thread regarding JHI.

How did this never get back to the coaches? How did it not get into the discussion at the WWCA meetings? Coach Q was a representative for a district and now is president of the WWCA and he has never received an email, letter or phone call regarding JHI? No coach has brought up JHI? I believe there are several HS coaches on this forum...none of them brought up the topic?

There are almost 350 HS wrestling programs in the state. If Coach Q is averaging 200 responses per survey he sends out he is getting better then a 50% response rate. It seems he is asking the coaches what they need to improve/grow high school wrestling in the state (based on the survey recently sent out) and nobody brought up JHI? Or am I jumping to a conclusion here? Did coaches bring up JHI but Coach Q has not received a email/letter/phone call on the matter?

I thinks the facts are pretty obvious with one of 3 things happening

1) Coaches could care less about JHI and do not consider it an issue worth pursuing
2) Coaches are overwhelmingly against it
3) Coaches know it is never going to pass so don't bring it up or waste their time.

Personally in speaking with coaches, their perception is that the only people that want JHI are the parents of very talented 7th and 8th graders.  None have considered it as a plausible way to fill weight classes

Quote from: CLC FAN on April 14, 2016, 03:03:42 PM
I don't know Barou, we could argue this at the ends of the spectrum, but if I just go find an average 130 pound wrestler who is 12 years old and an average 130 pound wrestler who is 17 years old - I would be pretty nervous about letting those two individuals compete against each other.  I'm frankly surprised that many states allow varsity-level JHI.

No need to argue at all.  Generally speaking a 17 year old 130 pound wrestler is physically and mentally superior to a 12 year old 130 pound wrestler and those two competing against each other is unsafe.  If that's your position, I agree 100%.  That is "generally" the case.  JHI utilizes the exceptions.  If a 17 year old underdeveloped kid is recruited to wrestle 160 he would not match up well with the average 160 lb 17 year old.  He might be a better match-up for an 8th grade 14 year old.  On the flip side because you see it EVERY year in JHI states there are many 7th and 8th grade wrestlers capable of competing with each other AND HS aged kids at the lower couple of weight classes.  JHI essentially means you expand the athletic pool from grades 9-12 to 7-12 and spread out where they fit developmental wise and talent wise.  It does require common sense and communication between athletes, parents, and coaches.  I will concede that if our WI wrestling coaches are not capable of using proper discretion with all of our athletes, especially the new group of athletes in the talent pool (7th and 8th graders) than I will say it's a bad idea and unsafe.  I liked to believe we had coaches comparable or better than coaches from the Dakotas, Kentucky, MN, NY, etc. but being that in the WI HS wrestling coaches circle JHI isn't even on the radar, I might be wrong.

To be clear, I'm not an advocate for JHI to be a "weight filler" and no kid regardless of their age should be put in a situation where they are not ready.  Judgment and discretion is an absolute must.  Great opportunities for a lot of athletes if used correctly.

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 14, 2016, 03:35:33 PM
I thinks the facts are pretty obvious with one of 3 things happening

1) Coaches could care less about JHI and do not consider it an issue worth pursuing
2) Coaches are overwhelmingly against it
3) Coaches know it is never going to pass so don't bring it up or waste their time.

Personally in speaking with coaches, their perception is that the only people that want JHI are the parents of very talented 7th and 8th graders.  None have considered it as a plausible way to fill weight classes

I don't know Doc...to me it isn't obvious. If Coach Q says it has never been brought up it tells me that someone isn't paying attention. In answer to your scenarios:

1) if they "could care less about JHI"...why...they would rather cut weight classes then fill them with athletes that could handle the spot? I had a 105 lb 7th grader that could beat the varsity kid...he could handle it. On the other hand I had another son that would not have been ready to fill that spot until his 9th grade year. Good coaching would have made that determination

2) Why would coaches be overwhelmingly against something that only seems to grow the sport?

3) The "know" it is never going to pass so don't bring it up or waste their time...hmmm, there are so many examples of what people "know" without actually trying. People "knew" we could never put a man in space. They "knew" the internet would never take off. People "knew" Donald Trump would never last in the presidential race.

I don't think you are wrong Doc...I just believe that all 3 of those options speak to a small minded attitude -

#1 = "I don't care"...
#2 = I don't want to change"...
#3 = "I can't do it"

Boy...I hope that isn't the attitude in the practice room.

Quote from: Coach Q on April 14, 2016, 12:53:58 PM
In regards to JHI. First off, I was fortunate to be voted in to serve two terms as district rep in the 90's and another when I ran in 2012. Served a term as Pres-elect and now in my first year as President of the WWCA. In all these years that I was fortunate enough to serve, to my recollection, I have never received an email, letter or phone call regarding a desire for junior high inclusion. In the last few months I have sent out two surveys to head coaches in the state and received more than 400 responses between the two. In looking back through the comments section on those surveys I saw only one coach ask if there was a chance of 8th graders ever being able to compete in high school. Last years survey to the division 2 and 3 coaches came back with a few dozen comments, suggestions and questions but none regarding JHI.

Currently the Medical Advisory board to the WIAA is adamantly against the inclusion of 7th and 8th graders into varsity sports and especially so in the sports of football, hockey, and wrestling. IMO until those doctors, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that serve on that board are compelled to change their findings, I don't see the WIAA going against them and JHI will probably not happen soon. Especially without a large percentage of Principals, Athletic Directors, and other sports pushing to get it through in all high school athletics.

Not saying it is a bad idea, but I would say a place to start is where alot of these ideas and suggestions get traction and that is through your head coaches and your WWCA District Reps. That is where a number of recent changes started, some recent ideas like 2 piece uniforms are proposed, and future considerations like double elimination can get a possible foothold.

+1

Quote from: CLC FAN on April 14, 2016, 03:03:42 PM
I don't know Barou, we could argue this at the ends of the spectrum, but if I just go find an average 130 pound wrestler who is 12 years old and an average 130 pound wrestler who is 17 years old - I would be pretty nervous about letting those two individuals compete against each other.  I'm frankly surprised that many states allow varsity-level JHI.

I think it is unquestionable that JHI would help the best wrestlers leave high school even better. 
I also think that there might be considerations at play besides what's good for the best wrestlers - and when people drop that magical "s" word "safety", it's a pretty big hurdle to clear.

Are you saying "average varsity wrestler" for both of these? Or "average JV wrestler"?  I think defining average is the key, otherwise, those two kids normally wouldn't even see each other. If they are both 15-15 on varsity, I'd say we are in for a good match. If they are both 10-10 on Jv we are in for a good match. I've seen plenty of 7th and 8th graders beat seniors at their respective weights.

Quote from: woody53 on April 14, 2016, 06:15:09 PM

Quote from: Coach Q on April 14, 2016, 12:53:58 PM
In regards to JHI. First off, I was fortunate to be voted in to serve two terms as district rep in the 90's and another when I ran in 2012. Served a term as Pres-elect and now in my first year as President of the WWCA. In all these years that I was fortunate enough to serve, to my recollection, I have never received an email, letter or phone call regarding a desire for junior high inclusion. In the last few months I have sent out two surveys to head coaches in the state and received more than 400 responses between the two. In looking back through the comments section on those surveys I saw only one coach ask if there was a chance of 8th graders ever being able to compete in high school. Last years survey to the division 2 and 3 coaches came back with a few dozen comments, suggestions and questions but none regarding JHI.

Currently the Medical Advisory board to the WIAA is adamantly against the inclusion of 7th and 8th graders into varsity sports and especially so in the sports of football, hockey, and wrestling. IMO until those doctors, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that serve on that board are compelled to change their findings, I don't see the WIAA going against them and JHI will probably not happen soon. Especially without a large percentage of Principals, Athletic Directors, and other sports pushing to get it through in all high school athletics.

Not saying it is a bad idea, but I would say a place to start is where alot of these ideas and suggestions get traction and that is through your head coaches and your WWCA District Reps. That is where a number of recent changes started, some recent ideas like 2 piece uniforms are proposed, and future considerations like double elimination can get a possible foothold.

+1

JHI was formally brought to the WWCA president in 2002-2003 and there was a vote at that time that was defeated.

This is interesting...Central Wisconsin Wrestling posted a one question poll on Facebook. The question: "Would you be in favor of changing the number of weight classes from the current Number of 14?"

It reached 936 people

The results:

21% said "YES, Increase the number to allow more participation"
10% said "YES, drop to 13"
24% said "YES, drop to 12"
45% said "NO, keep at 14"

Quote from: bulldog on April 14, 2016, 04:46:09 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 14, 2016, 03:35:33 PM
I thinks the facts are pretty obvious with one of 3 things happening

1) Coaches could care less about JHI and do not consider it an issue worth pursuing
2) Coaches are overwhelmingly against it
3) Coaches know it is never going to pass so don't bring it up or waste their time.

Personally in speaking with coaches, their perception is that the only people that want JHI are the parents of very talented 7th and 8th graders.  None have considered it as a plausible way to fill weight classes

I don't know Doc...to me it isn't obvious. If Coach Q says it has never been brought up it tells me that someone isn't paying attention. In answer to your scenarios:

1) if they "could care less about JHI"...why...they would rather cut weight classes then fill them with athletes that could handle the spot? I had a 105 lb 7th grader that could beat the varsity kid...he could handle it. On the other hand I had another son that would not have been ready to fill that spot until his 9th grade year. Good coaching would have made that determination

2) Why would coaches be overwhelmingly against something that only seems to grow the sport?

3) The "know" it is never going to pass so don't bring it up or waste their time...hmmm, there are so many examples of what people "know" without actually trying. People "knew" we could never put a man in space. They "knew" the internet would never take off. People "knew" Donald Trump would never last in the presidential race.

I don't think you are wrong Doc...I just believe that all 3 of those options speak to a small minded attitude -

#1 = "I don't care"...
#2 = I don't want to change"...
#3 = "I can't do it"

Boy...I hope that isn't the attitude in the practice room.

Great post Bulldog, spot on.

Quote from: bulldog on April 15, 2016, 09:17:09 AM
This is interesting...Central Wisconsin Wrestling posted a one question poll on Facebook. The question: "Would you be in favor of changing the number of weight classes from the current Number of 14?"

It reached 936 people

The results:

21% said "YES, Increase the number to allow more participation"
10% said "YES, drop to 13"
24% said "YES, drop to 12"
45% said "NO, keep at 14"

That is interesting information. Specifically the 21% who want to add weights to allow more participation. I think that is a fallacy. If we put 10 players on a baseball field at one time, would more kids play baseball? 12 on a football field? I know it's a silly argument, but how is adding more weights a way to increase participation in wrestling? It creates more varsity spots, yes. Data shows that most teams don't even fill the 14, so really that 21% who voted for that must come from the very small percentage of schools that actually fill the 14 weights to begin with.

Or maybe that is one of the things wrong with wrestling. Why is it that wrestlers think they have to wrestle varsity? Would a freshman basketball player even think he is good enough to play varsity basketball? Most won't quit because of it. They will work their way up the ranks and maybe get there as an upperclassmen. Maybe it's the dearth of JV opportunities, caused by the lack of JV kids.

Which then leads us back to the number of weights.

We lost 940 kids in 3 years in this state. There are 340 teams statewide. That means every team lost three (ish) kids in that span.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 15, 2016, 11:05:45 AM
I know it will upset a few folks on here that I bring in some simple business practices to this needed debate and I already know they will shoot back that schools are not a business. So before I get into very simple business practices I will make a quick argument that schools have turned into a business.
In 2014 Kaukauna (the fastest shrinking school system in the state) "lost" 641 students that open enrolled "out" of Kaukauna costing the school 2,900,000.00 in Federal aid lost.
And in Appleton they "gained" 1115 students to open enrollment netting them an additional 6,400,000.00 in Federal Aid.

I found this interesting however are you sure that 641 loss of students was all because of open enrollment?  I see the city's population was on a 19% rise in the early 2000s, but now the city's population increase is only around 2%.  How do you know the reduction of students you are quoting wasn't just lower enrollment numbers and not a loss caused by kids jumping ship?  Are you just making an assumption?

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 15, 2016, 11:05:45 AM
I know it will upset a few folks on here that I bring in some simple business practices to this needed debate and I already know they will shoot back that schools are not a business. So before I get into very simple business practices I will make a quick argument that schools have turned into a business.
In 2014 Kaukauna (the fastest shrinking school system in the state) "lost" 641 students that open enrolled "out" of Kaukauna costing the school 2,900,000.00 in Federal aid lost.
And in Appleton they "gained" 1115 students to open enrollment netting them an additional 6,400,000.00 in Federal Aid.

So do to the flight epidemic Kaukauna just built a 7,000,000.00 sports complex onto the school including a indoor turf field, its very nice. I personally don't this this will attract people to the community but it should help slow down the lose of kids. This sounds like something most businesses would do, smart move.

So I have a question that I would like to ask the readers of this post.
When was the last time your employer asked you if you would like to stop recruiting new clients and cut back your hours and receive the same pay?
I conduct lots of employee surveys to improve the work environment for my team so I am 100% in favor of surveys but my questions would be what do they need to fill a roster.
Do you need an eye pad to help stay in contact (social media) and recruit more kids from the dist?
Are you utilizing HUDL to communicate with parents and athlete's to help stop attrition?
Do you need more booster support to help cover increasing cost's and time?
Would you like an intern to help contact parents and volunteer's?
Are you net working to find solutions?

I would ask my costumers questions listed below.
Is it OK if we cut back our service hour's?   the season
Is it OK if we have less opportunity's but focus in on fewer?  Cut weight classes
Stop Asking The Staff what they want and Start Asking The Community what it wants.
Simple:
Community what do you want?
Staff what do you need? Our coaches are not afraid to work they just want the support needed to get the darn job done!!!!

I agree that at times we need to treat some aspects of education like a business. I'd have to think that there will be kids that will gravitate towards Kaukauna for other sports because of the field house. All people like new and shiny.

I like the stop asking the staff and ask the community. I am going to ask the administration at the elementary and middle school level if I can put a survey out to parents asking what they'd like to see in a program, why kids do or don't wrestle, etc.

Although the new facilities will likely be great.  I am pretty sure Kaukauna already had some of the nicest athletic facilities in that area.  That tells me that open enrollment out of there probably has little to do with their field-house, lack of indoor practice facilities or the quality of their weight room.

It will take a lot of kids coming back to recoup $7mil.  Doesn't sound like such a good business decision example to me....maybe it is has more to do with wanting to do good things for their students.

Ghetto...you say the 21% is a fallacy? How can you say that? Just because it doesn't match with your viewpoint? Are you questioning the results of the coaches poll? When they say they are in favor of cutting the number of weight classes maybe that is a fallacy also...

If you put more kids on a baseball field OF COURSE you will get more players. Because you will have to have more to fill the starting line-up. Think of it this way...there are 400 kids out for little league baseball in a town. You have 20 kids on a team there are 20 teams. You go into JR high and there are two JR high schools in that town. Only 20 kids can make the team so only 40 kids can make the team. There are 360 kids that didn't make those teams. Move into High School. Again...only 20 kids make the HS team. Now out of that original 400 there are 380 kids not playing baseball.

So...add one more spot...that forces the increase of the number on the roster and more kids are out.

You put the baseball argument out there. My scenario is very real...it actually happens all the time. The kids that don't make it at one school many times enroll out of the district to play.

So...you say the 21% must be from D1 schools...OKAY, then do you think the coaches saying they should cut the number of weights are coming from DII and DIII schools? Maybe that is the answer. Cut weights for DII and DIII schools and leave DI alone...

If my math is correct - there are 128 DI schools with wrestling programs, compared to 96 DII and 102 DIII (I quickly counted the number of schools on the regional assignments for 2016/2017...I may have miscounted). In regional competition DI schools had 31% more wrestlers then DII schools compete. DI had 50% more wrestlers then DIII schools. Also in regional competition DIII schools averaged 9.3 wrestlers per team.

So maybe the answer isn't across the board. Maybe what is good for DIII is not good for DI.

Quote from: bulldog on April 15, 2016, 12:05:35 PM
Ghetto...you say the 21% is a fallacy? How can you say that? Just because it doesn't match with your viewpoint? Are you questioning the results of the coaches poll? When they say they are in favor of cutting the number of weight classes maybe that is a fallacy also...

If you put more kids on a baseball field OF COURSE you will get more players. Because you will have to have more to fill the starting line-up. Think of it this way...there are 400 kids out for little league baseball in a town. You have 20 kids on a team there are 20 teams. You go into JR high and there are two JR high schools in that town. Only 20 kids can make the team so only 40 kids can make the team. There are 360 kids that didn't make those teams. Move into High School. Again...only 20 kids make the HS team. Now out of that original 400 there are 380 kids not playing baseball.

So...add one more spot...that forces the increase of the number on the roster and more kids are out.

You put the baseball argument out there. My scenario is very real...it actually happens all the time. The kids that don't make it at one school many times enroll out of the district to play.

So...you say the 21% must be from D1 schools...OKAY, then do you think the coaches saying they should cut the number of weights are coming from DII and DIII schools? Maybe that is the answer. Cut weights for DII and DIII schools and leave DI alone...

If my math is correct - there are 128 DI schools with wrestling programs, compared to 96 DII and 102 DIII (I quickly counted the number of schools on the regional assignments for 2016/2017...I may have miscounted). In regional competition DI schools had 31% more wrestlers then DII schools compete. DI had 50% more wrestlers then DIII schools. Also in regional competition DIII schools averaged 9.3 wrestlers per team.

So maybe the answer isn't across the board. Maybe what is good for DIII is not good for DI.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I believe the 21% number. What I do not believe is that having more kids on the baseball, football, or whatever sport varsity playing field will increase numbers of participants coming out for the sport. It will increase the requirements for what teams need, but not the actual of kids ON the team.

Wrestling, for the most part, never cuts along the way. You can compete for yourself, or your club, or your team. It does not have the issues that you speak of in baseball. I do think it is a valid argument that losing teams along the way would certainly lead to the demise of other sports.

Little league baseball is a travesty. The same problem we are having in wrestling with too much competition, too early, is clearly effecting the game of baseball. But that's another topic.

We added two spots on the varsity roster from 1988 to today. We have less participants now than we did back then. More roster spots therefore do not mean more participants. It is already proven throughout that time period.

I think it would be great if we had 12 weights and kids stayed in house to wrestle. We know of tons of cases where people move their kids to the perennial powers so they can win/be successful. If their own program was more competitive, would they stay?

I agree with you 100% that to compare D1 to D3 is completely unfair. I would not oppose changing to 12 weights for D3 and seeing where things go. I think it is the way to try things out.

I think having two, or three divisions, depending on how many roster spots you have, wouldn't be a bad thing to try either. If I had to argue semantics, I'd say that you could choose on a two year cycle, but I see what getyourpoints is getting a with allowing parents a choice.

In regards to the Kaukauna example from getyourpoints...you hit it on the head.

My belief is Kaukauna and the other Fox Valley schools understand business better then most. Most towns you have one choice for your high school. Let's look at Stevens Point...Average class size is about 500 kids...so 9-12 has about 2,000 kids at SPASH. If you don't like SPASH you have little choice. If you live in the city of Stevens Point it is a bit of a drive to go to Amherst, Wisconsin Rapids, Mosinee, or Wis Rapids. Most parents are not driving their freshmen and sophomore kids

Now jump over to the Fox Valley...Appleton West High School to Kaukauna High School is separated by 9 miles. In that 9 miles you have Appleton West, Appleton North, Appleton East, Kimberly, Little Chute, and Kaukauna. If I don't like your offerings at one it isn't difficult to move my kid to another.

If you want to play on a state championship football team in the Fox Valley Kimberly looks pretty good. Suddenly Kaukauna is losing kids that want to be on a state caliber football team. Kaukauna figured out that they better start offering something to keep those kids. They got the wrestling and other very solid sports. As a business they are going to offer as much as they can to bring in the $$.

With that said...it should be about having the best academics and sports secondary but it doesn't seem that way in some schools. Don't get me wrong...I think Kaukauna has fine academics...just a general statement

Points,
Why do you say elite wrestlers need more exposure? You've said that more than once on this forum. I'm not sure I follow. Exposure how and to whom? If they are elite, don't they already get exposure? Fargo, State, and other in or out season tournaments? Who wasn't aware of the Askrens? Who hasn't heard of Breske? Not sure I follow how any of this would really relate to the # of weight classes anyway.

Quote from: getyourpoints on April 15, 2016, 02:05:44 PM
I mean this sincerely, if were going to lead the way with change then lets do it with a plan that make sense for everyone in our state. Lets protect the small schools from losing there school pride by not being competitive and lets protect the thriving programs that have a strong wrestling culture. Two divisions with two weight class structure's and open enrollment seems to allow each community and each family with a choice that works for them, verse a bunch of self evolved blow harts telling everyone what to do.

I'm all in for this. While I think that the majority of teams would end up in the lower division, I understand the need to protect the teams that have built their programs to the point where they can sustain 14 weights.

So here's a thought, since number of weight classes really makes the most difference in duals.
How about just seeking from the WIAA the flexibility for any conference to choose to experiment with different weight classes and numbers of weight classes but limited within their own conference dual meets. The WIAA could even be involved in setting up some choices if they wanted (like, here are the weight classes if you go with 13, here are the weights if you go with 11).  Since schools tend to be in conferences with somewhat similar enrollments, maybe many smaller school conferences would give it a try. Whether it turned out overwhelmingly successful or if it turned out that it made no difference, at least we would have some data. 

Maybe take it a step further and allow a school hosting a dualstyle tournament to choose one of the options mentioned above. That way a team could decide to attend or not depending on what they feel is in the best interest of their program.

For all individual tournaments, state individual and state team we follow the National Federation.

What are the current Wisconsin rules for entering "Varsity Reserve" kids in a varsity tournament?

If I am using the term correctly, these kids are good enough to be .500 or above on varsity if they could crack the lineup of their own school.  They are not eligible for the JV state tournament since they are varsity caliber.  Where/How do these high school kids get the quality matches during the season to improve and want to continue to be wrestlers.

Can you enter the Bi-State as "Hudson-Reserve" without scoring team points for example?  Would it only be allowed if your varsity team also entered?  If not, has this been considered for a possible rule change? 

I think the way things are currently done, Varsity Reserve is just a nice term for JV.  There aren't any criteria forskill of wrestler such as being varsity caliber.
As far as rules, you can enter a Varsity Reserve team into a tournament, but its up to the tournament host whether or not they will accept a Varsity Reserve Team.  If a team wishes to enter wrestlers as varsity reserve, they must designate them as such and the tournament must know ahead of time that is what team you are sending.  The event must also be listed on your schedule as varsity reserve otherwise it would count against your limit of 7 varsity tournaments.  I doubt a tournament the caliber of Bi state would accept a varsity reserve team, but many smaller tournaments have them.  And they are able to count team points.

Quote from: stritch on April 15, 2016, 06:04:31 PM
I think the way things are currently done, Varsity Reserve is just a nice term for JV.  There aren't any criteria forskill of wrestler such as being varsity caliber.
As far as rules, you can enter a Varsity Reserve team into a tournament, but its up to the tournament host whether or not they will accept a Varsity Reserve Team.  If a team wishes to enter wrestlers as varsity reserve, they must designate them as such and the tournament must know ahead of time that is what team you are sending.  The event must also be listed on your schedule as varsity reserve otherwise it would count against your limit of 7 varsity tournaments.  I doubt a tournament the caliber of Bi state would accept a varsity reserve team, but many smaller tournaments have them.  And they are able to count team points.

As far as Bi-State goes, I was just wondering if there was ever consideration to having 1-4 "extra" unattached/reserve enter an individual tournament.  I would guess Stratford could have added at least a few quality bodies to the bracket this year.