“Hot Topics in the Sport of Wrestling”

[ElectricGuy]

Tony,   I respect your post, but isn't your #5 answer in conflict with your #1 and #3 answers.    If #1 and #3 happen isn't that on the HS coach and him wanting to win so bad at any cost?  Isn't it then the HS coaches fault that the kid dropped out?

I say this out of experience.  My son had some sucsess at the youth level,  comes to freshman year - couldn't break the lineup,  he chose to wrestle up three weights to be on varsity (he chose).   He took a pounding all year,  came to the big winter tourneys - Fargo, Cheesehead - the coaches kept him out and subbed a JV tourney and a small varsity tourney that he could do closer to his natural weight.   The coaches chose that vs. possibly gaining a couple points.  Yes by regionals he was toast,  but I look back and there was great learning lessons there for him with the losses and sacrificing himself for the team.   Many of his losses - it was just him staying off his back and there was victories in that. 

If kids are getting put out there and their not physically, mentally, technically reading to wrestle that varsity match - that is on the Head coach - he has the authority to not wrestle that kid, unless the inmates are running the asylum?

I still have yet to see one post that legitimately argues -  that reducing weight classes grows the participation numbers.

[Ghetto]

I still have yet to see one post that legitimately argues -  that reducing weight classes grows the participation numbers.

I realize this is all just in theory...

Kid comes to a HS dual meet which is a blowout and watches his school get smashed and never considers coming out for the team. Because in a dual teams with bigger numbers can move studs around, stick in JV kids to take FFs or get better matchups, scores are more lopsided than they could be. Kids who hear the announcements also hear these blowouts and decide they don't want to be part of a program. That might bring in more kids.

Also, allowing kids to wrestle JV because there's less need to force kids onto varsity to win a dual may help retain kids. Kids may stick around if they have greater success. Having less weights makes that more possible.

[Oldtimer]

I l believe there's too much focus on forfeits in weights.  No matter what we do there will be some forfeits and someone will not be happy.  Everyone can't be happy but everyone should have opportunity.  That's why I'd prefer making another smaller weight class and spread out the others.  14 or 13 is fine... doesn't really matter in my opinion as long as the weights allow for the most possible participants.

Take 98 pounders.  Sure there are many forfeits but the matches that do take place will be closer to actual weight.  Small kids struggle in other winter sports, why take this one from them too.  Big kids have other options.

I still wish the 6 pt score for a forfeit would go away.  Wrestle the matches that are available.  If a coach wants to play match game to get a victory so be it.  At least the matches are wrestled.  Only score the matches wrestled.  If you have 8 wrestlers the coach still needs to match them within one weight class to move them.  Pretty far reaching to see this being of any significance.

Nobody can argue my points now.... opinions aren't allowed and my post is ALL FACT.

[LaValle]

In the past 3 years, only 18 of 128 D1 schools have brought a full lineup to regionals every year.
In D2 that number is 12 that were full three years straight out of about 104 teams.
In D3 that number is 8 that were full three years straight out of about 104 teams.

If these are the facts (I did not research but believe in CLC FAN's findings) then I would have to say there are indeed too many weight classes.

These are regionals not the Cheesehead, Clash, etc.

Opportunities that are clearly available are not being taken advantage of that is pretty clear.  If this was occurring in a business setting you could bet changes would be considered.

I just find it hard to believe that only 38 coaches out of 336 are doing their job as a few claim.

[ElectricGuy]

Don't get fooled by CLC's "facts" -   I'm reminded of a quote.  He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts — for support rather than for illumination. ~Andrew Lang

When you string statistics together like that where it has to be three years straight - of course the odds go down exponentially

I would assume that if he posted % of teams that had full lineups last year or at least had 13 -  you would see numbers around 80+ D1, 60-70+ D2, and probably in the area of 40 for D3.  Just a guess, but when your putting the restraint of have that full lineup each year (for 3 yrs straight) - I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the big wrestling schools / clubs probably miss the list.   Some of that could be just do to injuries and such at the end of the year and a HS coach not wanting to put a JV person out for his first matches at Regionals.

[Ghetto]

ElectricGuy,

PM me your email address and I'll send you the data from 2005 (the first year Trackwrestling had regionals) until 2015 in regards to how many teams have 12 or less wrestlers. It encompasses all divisions.

In general, coaches put kids in with 0-0 records quite often for regionals, for whatever reason. I would assume that they do it a lot more than the coach who keeps him out. Injuries and keeping kids out is, in my experience as a coach, much less likely than sticking a kid in at 0-0.

92.2% of the D3 teams from last year did not fill more than 12 weights with "varsity kids". Kids with a 0-0 or .200 winning percentage or less I didn't consider a varsity kid.

[LaValle]

I don't think CLC FAN's numbers were too far off and like I mentioned before if we looked at the numbers and compared as utilization or productivity...

2015 D1 Regional
Total Teams 126

Utilization
35 Teams with 14 (27.8%)
53 Teams with 13 or more (42.1%)
73 Teams with 12 or more (57.9%)
91 Teams with 11 or more (72.2%)
102 Teams with 10 or more (81.0%)

Utilization Net Positive Change
14 to 13 +14.3%
13 to 12 +15.9%
12 to 11 +14.3%
11 to 10 +8.7%

[DocWrestling]

The only lost opportunities to wrestle in high school are when teams are dropped.  We are losing teams to more and more co-ops.  Instead of possibly having two teams with 11 weight classes and 22 varsity opportunities, we have one co-op with 14 weight classes plus all the problems of a co-op.

This trend is snowballing and going to get larger and larger which means fewer teams and this has a direct effect on smaller schools because it destroys there conferences for wrestling hurting everyone.

[Barou]

I'd like to see 106, 113 than college weights as the high school line-up.  12 weight classes.

I think it looks bad for us when we have forfeits at team state.

[ElectricGuy]

Ok,  not to proud to admit I'm wrong,  let's drop about 13 weights and just make it a king of the mat type format,  everyone should be able to fill that weight and were out of there quick,  to get the young lads back to their gaming systems, girls,  buddies on street,  or whatever else.  

Posting is like the walking dead series,  I stay away then someone pulls me in a little, and bam I'm six seasons in , I have to be done with these couple threads.  Can we go back to something less confrontational like talking about Walker or Trump lol

[Houndhead]

The only lost opportunities to wrestle in high school are when teams are dropped.  We are losing teams to more and more co-ops.  Instead of possibly having two teams with 11 weight classes and 22 varsity opportunities, we have one co-op with 14 weight classes plus all the problems of a co-op.

This trend is snowballing and going to get larger and larger which means fewer teams and this has a direct effect on smaller schools because it destroys there conferences for wrestling hurting everyone.

Bingo!!

[DocWrestling]

I really would hope that the coaches association would have an anonymous survey with many of these topics and have all coaches fill it out and then publish the results.

[CLC FAN]

Don't get fooled by CLC's "facts" -   I'm reminded of a quote.  He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts — for support rather than for illumination. ~Andrew Lang

I would assume that if he posted % of teams that had full lineups last year or at least had 13 -  you would see numbers around 80+ D1, 60-70+ D2, and probably in the area of 40 for D3.  Just a guess, but when your putting the restraint of have that full lineup each year (for 3 yrs straight) - I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the big wrestling schools / clubs probably miss the list.

First of all, let me agree with your other post where you equated posting on here to binge watching The Walking Dead.  I think I probably need to step away from the keyboard here too... but.

Last year, in D1 53 teams were full or had 1 forfeit (you suggested 80+)
In D2 37 teams were full or had 1 forfeit (your range was 60-70+)
In D3 17 teams were full or had 1 forfeit (your guess was 40)

So here's my thing - if, like aarons you are saying there is a problem and the solution is recruit harder, fine.  He and I disagree about the solution, but we both see the problem.  I feel like a lot of people in the wrestling community don't even recognize how glaring the problem is.  Less than half of D1 can even get within 1 forfeit of a full lineup! 

The reason I listed the 3 year full team numbers is because it's always brought up (aarons even likes to use my own program as an example) that "some programs don't have a problem bringing a full lineup every year."  The number of programs that can make that claim is extraordinarily small.  The rest of us all struggle to fill out the weights.  Your last sentence is the clincher for me.  There are indeed big-name programs that have the history, they have the community support, they have an awesome coach and a great feeder program, and yet they still can't fill out a lineup for 3 years straight.  Doesn't that indicate a problem with the 14 weight class system?

[LaValle]

Posting is like the walking dead series,  I stay away then someone pulls me in a little, and bam I'm six seasons in , I have to be done with these couple threads.  Can we go back to something less confrontational like talking about Walker or Trump lol

Now that made me smile

[CoachZ]

What are all the problems of a co-op?

The only lost opportunities to wrestle in high school are when teams are dropped.  We are losing teams to more and more co-ops.  Instead of possibly having two teams with 11 weight classes and 22 varsity opportunities, we have one co-op with 14 weight classes plus all the problems of a co-op.

This trend is snowballing and going to get larger and larger which means fewer teams and this has a direct effect on smaller schools because it destroys there conferences for wrestling hurting everyone.