Barry Davis

[wrastle63]

Ringing endorsement for Barry Davis is go look at Wick's mom twitter feed.

[CLC FAN]

And where are all the people that said Brett doesn't know what he's talking about.

YOU'RE WELCOME

Present

Did I correctly or incorrectly read that like Tim-othy from the Key and Peele skit... Pre-sent!

[bigG]

Sorry but D3 and D2 WIAA state champs no matter how many times just don't cut it at the next level.

Rick Lawinger,Ron Jeidy,Jim Haines.Matt Hanutke,Tyler Turner,Dennis Limmex,Ralph Liegel,Todd Seiler, Kyle Richards,Mark Schmitz,Gene Spellman,Ryan Lord,Terry Manning.Tim Hartung,Garret Lowney,Cole Konrad and the Hull brothers of Evansville.My 1 minute timer just beep thats all the little guys I could come up whith in 1 Minute       
[/quote/]

Those guys just got lucky.

[FoldEmUp]

Here's the thing...we aren't hiring for person of the year.  We're hiring a wrestling coach.  I have zero doubts Barry Davis is a great man who loves the Lord.  But in making decisions like this you take the emotion out of it and ask, but is he getting the job done?  I made a long post a couple weeks ago about all the things to consider as an administrator in the athletic department.  If doing decent on the cheap and with good people but continuing the string of never being in contention is the goal of the athletic department then welcome Coach Brandvold.  If we want to take on a little risk for a higher reward then go with an Askren.  I personally believe Alvarez prefers little risk from a non-revenue sport and is ok playing it safe considering the return (although that return is not what diehards are satisfied with).  I guess we'll find out!  Bottom line, Barry Davis was a fine man, but 25 years is a long time to be at the helm of a program and never be in contention for a title despite a string of some of the top recruiting classes in the nation.  I wish him well.

[Pinned]

interesting how people not on the inside of this organization think they know so much about what is going on or what should be done   ...and so cavalier with other peoples livelihoods   wish these 3 coaches could judge your job performance with no idea of what you do, what resources you have/don't have, or how hard or little you work, what personal sacrifices you make or significant impact you have on these young men.  you are judge and jury when a kid from WI doesn't choose UW blaming these guys for not getting them never knowing that grades are many times the reason or maybe its not the school their parents want them to go... or maybe there isn't money left to get them...  Its tough enough to hope my boss knows enough about what do to accurately judge my performance without people outside judging me   

[wrestlemania]

"body that knows anything about UW wrestling can say one bad thing about Barry Davis, the person.  He is absolutely a genuine great person.  It is understandable that the wrestlers on the team that are close to him are deeply affected today.  Hopefully they wrestle for him at NCAA's and then start to feel excitement for the change that comes with a new leader. Even the best people don't achieve the successes expected in some positions.  Fatigue and "comfort" can also set in with a program with the same leader for so many years. When Barry Davis returns to watch UW wrestling he should be welcomed very well."

Well said, outstanding sir!

I'm curious where these hightened expectations come from? It would be one thing if UW Wrestling has once, even long ago, won team titles in the league and nationally and could reach that standard again with the right coach. But UW has never won anything in wrestling on a team level? Nothing! Barry Davis has more dual meet wins and has coached more All-Americans and NCAA Champions than George Martin ever produced yet it's "The George Martin Hall of Fame" Fine! I'm not advocating changing this but again, why is BD being held to high standard? Because of Kleven/Hellickson? Okay, but they never won anything either! Second place is still freaking second place! For all you diehards and old timers, ask yourself this question, why would Hellickson, who is from Wisconsin, suddenly just up and leave Madison for a much poorer (at the time) OSU program, hmm? Did he believe he could never get the resources he felt he needed to win in Madison? And if so why? And if neither he nor Kleven, who worked in the UWAD for a long time after he left coaching, couldn't get what they needed with all the success they had, boy how is BD going to do so?

Again it's not that I think he's a great coach but the overall record deserves a little more respect than he's given by some quarters in the state's wrestling community. Yes there have been problems, recruiting misses, missed opportunities, sheer bad luck with injuries, you name it. But what program doesn't go through that from time to time? When it it's all said and done the record is a solid one for what Davis had to both work with and his own limitations and the program's limitations.

At some point people in this state have to realize what it really takes to have a successful college wrestling program that wins titles and then realize UW is a long way from that and no coach with a magic wand can change it overnight. The changes have to be long-term and systemic, not just the man at the top. I'm glad UW invested in that stability because simply hiring new coaches every five seasons who have no chance is a self-defeating processes (as University of Minnesota football fans know all too well). But we're at a crossroads now and the new hire will determine what kind of program the UWAD want or better yet is willing to pay for.
   

[bigdawg]

Sorry but D3 and D2 WIAA state champs no matter how many times just don't cut it at the next level.

Rick Lawinger,Ron Jeidy,Jim Haines.Matt Hanutke,Tyler Turner,Dennis Limmex,Ralph Liegel,Todd Seiler, Kyle Richards,Mark Schmitz,Gene Spellman,Ryan Lord,Terry Manning.Tim Hartung,Garret Lowney,Cole Konrad and the Hull brothers of Evansville.My 1 minute timer just beep thats all the little guys I could come up whith in 1 Minute       

Thank you for this. I was just about to make this list. AZKING must have been living in a cave his whole life. Look at all of those studs. Olympic medalist. Hartung was a hammer and King Cole Conrad beat big bad Steve Mocco! Imagine how good he would have been if he wrestled d1 in high school.

[FoldEmUp]

interesting how people not on the inside of this organization think they know so much about what is going on or what should be done   ...and so cavalier with other peoples livelihoods   wish these 3 coaches could judge your job performance with no idea of what you do, what resources you have/don't have, or how hard or little you work, what personal sacrifices you make or significant impact you have on these young men.  you are judge and jury when a kid from WI doesn't choose UW blaming these guys for not getting them never knowing that grades are many times the reason or maybe its not the school their parents want them to go... or maybe there isn't money left to get them...  Its tough enough to hope my boss knows enough about what do to accurately judge my performance without people outside judging me   

Don't know if that was directed at me or not, but here is what I said about this topic a couple weeks ago on this board:

"If I'm the AD overseeing our athletic programs here's how I would view it from an administrative perspective.

1.  We need to have a robust and self-sustaining athletic department that offers 23 sports.  There are fewer than 25 self-sustaining athletic departments in the nation meaning revenue is more than expenditures.  Wisconsin is about $1.5m to the good.

2.  To accomplish that task we need to have a quality revenue sports (football, men's basketball, men's hockey).  The revenue from those sports almost funds the entire athletic department.  And because of that, most of the resources go to those programs to ensure they are quality programs.

3.  Any resources that go to non-revenue sports need to be distributed strategically and efficiently because these sports are net losers to the athletic department. 

4.  Certain sports will never be a revenue sport (golf, rowing, etc.) for many different reasons.

5.  Wrestling is a non-revenue sport.  Can it be a revenue sport?  Almost certainly not.

In terms of average wrestling home attendance in 2016-17 you have:  1) Iowa (9,860), 2) Penn State (7,833), 3) Ohio State (5,880), 4) Oklahoma State (5,041), 5) Rutgers (4,706), 6) Iowa State (3,280), and 7) Minnesota (2,715) and everyone else is below 2,000.  Wisconsin sits at 20th at 955.  In 2016-17 Wisconsin spent $287,567 on the wrestling program.  (https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/details) Most of that is in coaches salaries.  With 5 home duals in 2016-17 at 955 per dual we had a total attendance of 4,775.  Tickets cost $5 adult and $2 kid and senior.  So let's even say every attendee is an adult.  At $5 per ticket we would bring in a whopping $23,875 in ticket revenue.  My guess is the average price is closer to $3 than $5.  Iowa charges between $8-$12.  So even if we could charge what Iowa does we would still only pull in $57,300 at best.  There is some minimal periphery revenue from donors as well.  You can see the issue here.  We are a net loser of around $250k to the athletic department.  Even tripling our attendance and increasing our ticket prices wouldn't get us there.  And if you bring in another coach that would cost us more?  More in the red.  With an athletic department that is in the black but only by $1.5M and you do the math on how much they want to increase the cost of one sport that has little ability to increase it's revenue.

6.  What is the quality of return for the cost?  In other words, is it worth the additional cost for whatever would be gained?

Additional questions...

7.  What is the popularity of the sport of wrestling compared to other sports?  In other words, is there a base from which to pull from to make wrestling a revenue sport or MORE self-sustaining than it currently is?  Iowa drew 42,000 fans to a wrestling match on their football field against Oklahoma State.  We drew in only 1,873 for our dual vs. Penn St, the top team in the nation.  Even as a special event would we have drawn in 10,000?

8.  What is the in-state participation and quality of the sport?  How many post-secondary institutions offer wrestling?  I can tell you, for the number of high school wrestlers in Wisconsin, we have a high number of post-secondary options in-state...13 I believe.  We all know the quality just in terms of NCAA qualifiers from WI.

9.  What is the geographic pool from which to recruit from?  The more quality wrestlers closer to Madison the better.

10.  What are our selling points to recruit out-of-state to Wisconsin for wrestling specifically?  Conference?  Facilities?  Coaches?  Competition?  Weather?  Academics?  Etc.

Within the sport there are some things that can't change and some things that can.  We can't change geography for example.  We can't change our conference.  Can we improve the quality of wrestling in the state?  Yes, but that takes time.  Can we make people more interested in wrestling?  Sure, but it's going to be a process and needs to be strategic.  In my mind it happens at the local level within the state of Wisconsin.  Has Barry Davis done enough to change the circumstances in the state that can be impacted such as interest and participation in wrestling?  Are the circumstances self-inflicted over 20+ years?  I don't know enough to make that determination.

So this is WAY more complex than "let's replace Barry Davis because the results aren't what we want".  We as wrestling fans want the best.  It's OUR passion.  But as in a marriage, what I value isn't necessarily what my wife values.  What I enjoy to do isn't necessarily what she enjoys to do.  If I had my way and thought about nothing else but myself I can tell you the way I'd manage our family's finances would not be what is best for the whole family.  Get where I'm going with this?

Overall, Barry Alvarez must feel like we get a pretty good return for the investment made.  If we're going to be in the negative let's be in the negative minimally so and be competitive at the same time.  There is no fast and easy answer to how we get better as a program, but change for the sake of change is "the grass is greener on the other side" stuff.  I think the program can get better, but is it worth the cost?"

[ramjet]

That may be one of most honest analytical posts I have ever seen on this forum.

The only thing I might disagree with is it can be a selfsustaining sport but it takes booster club money to do so.

One thing that always amazes me is that people come out of the wood work to support Mr Davis NOW. He is stepping down then you all step up and come out of the woodwork. Where were you during his tenure or time as coach. this is just like any School sport you hear crickets until and only until a school board decides to cut it then all this outrage and emotion. I really have a hard time jumping on the bandwagon with people who are not proactive.

[DocWrestling]

The UW program is held back in a lot of areas by the administration.   THIS is the main reason I think we need a guy like Askren.  We need a guy that is going to get in there and demand and push for changes and make the most out of every inch given.   Davis and Alvarez were close friends and just had the program coasting along.  Someone brought up Hellickson and the fact that he left.  That tells you everything about the UW program.

This new hire will tell us everything about what Alvarez cares about this program and if he is willing to go for something.  I do believe that Alvarez may have been and still is the biggest problem in holding back the wrestling program and he is not leaving!

[Barou]

Sorry but D3 and D2 WIAA state champs no matter how many times just don't cut it at the next level.

Rick Lawinger,Ron Jeidy,Jim Haines.Matt Hanutke,Tyler Turner,Dennis Limmex,Ralph Liegel,Todd Seiler, Kyle Richards,Mark Schmitz,Gene Spellman,Ryan Lord,Terry Manning.Tim Hartung,Garret Lowney,Cole Konrad and the Hull brothers of Evansville.My 1 minute timer just beep thats all the little guys I could come up whith in 1 Minute       

Alex Dieringer should be added to the list.  Port Washington was D2 one of his years which is notable considering that was the only year he didn't win state.

[FoldEmUp]

That may be one of most honest analytical posts I have ever seen on this forum.

The only thing I might disagree with is it can be a selfsustaining sport but it takes booster club money to do so.

One thing that always amazes me is that people come out of the wood work to support Mr Davis NOW. He is stepping down then you all step up and come out of the woodwork. Where were you during his tenure or time as coach. this is just like any School sport you hear crickets until and only until a school board decides to cut it then all this outrage and emotion. I really have a hard time jumping on the bandwagon with people who are not proactive.

Getting propped up by donors, to me, is not self-sustaining.

Also, please don't confuse my post as being supportive of Coach Davis necessarily, but I am certainly more understanding of the big picture outside wrestling in the athletic department than maybe some others are.  I am hoping that we can make a splash with Ben Askren.  I believe it will pay off in spades.  Sometimes if you build it they will come.  Other times, like volleyball, if they come you have to build it (see second level Fieldhouse renovation).  I think Ben could do the latter in a way Barry, or anyone else on the current staff, can or could.  But that's just my eval from the cheap seats.  We'll find out in the next month or so which direction we're headed.

[MNbadger]

+1

The UW program is held back in a lot of areas by the administration.   THIS is the main reason I think we need a guy like Askren.  We need a guy that is going to get in there and demand and push for changes and make the most out of every inch given.   Davis and Alvarez were close friends and just had the program coasting along.  Someone brought up Hellickson and the fact that he left.  That tells you everything about the UW program.

This new hire will tell us everything about what Alvarez cares about this program and if he is willing to go for something.  I do believe that Alvarez may have been and still is the biggest problem in holding back the wrestling program and he is not leaving!

Are there any other scapegoats we'd like to brainstorm before getting to the fact that all of these "fans," who feel entitled to a Top 5 rather than a Top 15 team, refuse to show up and actually support the team?

[FoldEmUp]

Are there any other scapegoats we'd like to brainstorm before getting to the fact that all of these "fans," who feel entitled to a Top 5 rather than a Top 15 team, refuse to show up and actually support the team?

If you are offering to pay for my plane ticket every match please feel free to offer.  I'll be there for every match!

[MNbadger]

I think he was referring more to in-state "fans".