Open Records law for WIAA

[Handles II]

No, bye's do not count for match limit, nor do they count as a win on a wrestlers record.
Bye's only count as a win in team scoring for an individual tournament IF you win your next match after the bye.But they never count as a win for that individual person. Only forfeits do that. Therefore forfeits do count towards a match limit. Unfortunately, some people, some coaches, count byes as a win in the record to pad the win %.

Also, as mentioned in a different thread, in MN if a kid (say an 8th grader) decides to wrestle in a non-school tournament (youth tourney) he is allowed to, but his matches there count on his MN match count. 

[wraslfan]

No, bye's do not count for match limit, nor do they count as a win on a wrestlers record.
Bye's only count as a win in team scoring for an individual tournament IF you win your next match after the bye.But they never count as a win for that individual person. Only forfeits do that. Therefore forfeits do count towards a match limit. Unfortunately, some people, some coaches, count byes as a win in the record to pad the win %.

Also, as mentioned in a different thread, in MN if a kid (say an 8th grader) decides to wrestle in a non-school tournament (youth tourney) he is allowed to, but his matches there count on his MN match count. 

Counting a FF as a match is just dumb. It is NOT a match! I don't think I could hear an argument that could persuade me to agree with that. My guess is, they don't want to have to verify or trust a coach's match count? 

[ramjet]

This is not a troll.....
There seems to be a big difference between MN/WI and the relationship between their respective high school athletic associations.
Is this difference evident between the coaches and their associations or just the fans?
What are the biggest issues/complaints.
In my years coaching in MN I heard a few complaints about certain issues but nothing like what I see/hear about the WIAA.  I grew up in WI and remember it seemed comparatively heavy handed but that was many, many years ago and I have no idea if it was the same in MN back then.

Frankly I could care less about what goes on in MN it is not even in the least pertinent to this conversation. In fact you and HandlesII should take your discussions to the MN Wrestling forum. Frankly you cannot do that fast enough. I for one will not miss either of you at all.

[MNbadger]

This is not a troll.....
There seems to be a big difference between MN/WI and the relationship between their respective high school athletic associations.
Is this difference evident between the coaches and their associations or just the fans?
What are the biggest issues/complaints.
In my years coaching in MN I heard a few complaints about certain issues but nothing like what I see/hear about the WIAA.  I grew up in WI and remember it seemed comparatively heavy handed but that was many, many years ago and I have no idea if it was the same in MN back then.

Frankly I could care less about what goes on in MN it is not even in the least pertinent to this conversation. In fact you and HandlesII should take your discussions to the MN Wrestling forum. Frankly you cannot do that fast enough. I for one will not miss either of you at all.

Ask a simple, sincere question........

[Handles II]

This is not a troll.....
There seems to be a big difference between MN/WI and the relationship between their respective high school athletic associations.
Is this difference evident between the coaches and their associations or just the fans?
What are the biggest issues/complaints.
In my years coaching in MN I heard a few complaints about certain issues but nothing like what I see/hear about the WIAA.  I grew up in WI and remember it seemed comparatively heavy handed but that was many, many years ago and I have no idea if it was the same in MN back then.

Frankly I could care less about what goes on in MN it is not even in the least pertinent to this conversation. In fact you and HandlesII should take your discussions to the MN Wrestling forum. Frankly you cannot do that fast enough. I for one will not miss either of you at all.

Actually Ram, if the WIAA would ever go to State Seeding (team or individual) then what is currently happening in MN regarding this would absolutely be valuable information. I understand you are bitter about MN's overall success vs. WI in recent years (wrestling, education, economics)
But that doesn't mean that you should close your eyes to what works, or what isn't working. However, as you've proven in the past, expanding your views isn't a strongsuit of yours.  Don't worry buddy, I'll stay on this forum, if for no other reason than to be a thorn in your side. XOXO Handles II

[MNbadger]

I stated that my post/question was a sincere one.  Sometimes it is nice to see from another place what the view is and how it might help. 
As far as comparisons Ramjet, they are what they are.  You often talk about competition and how it benefits those involved......

[ramjet]

Ram,
You are living in the dark ages if you can't see how far behind we are!!!

Frankly if that is true get some numbers of Division 1-2-3 college champions and what state they are from I would say those are the states that lead. Let me know when you and MNbadger nd HandlessII have that dug up and posted. I wonder why then Augburg for example recruits Wisconsin Wrestlers? Why not stay at home and just recruit MN students. Of course maybe they want the higher non resident tuition?

[MNbadger]

The tuition is the same for resident/non-resident.

[MNbadger]

1961-2011

State/Country   Individuals   NCAA Championships   Individuals All-Americans
Pennsylvania   55   73   295   504
Iowa   48   68   186   350
Ohio   28   37   177   313
Oklahoma   34   50   134   271
Illinois   26   30   137   242
California   25   36   152   240
New Jersey   25   39   123   213
New York   24   31   133   211
Michigan   14   24   103   182
Minnesota   9   11   78   128
Oregon   15   21   73   125
Wisconsin   12   17   49   82
Colorado   8   9   49   75
Virginia   8   10   3

This is throught 2011.  MN has 128 AA, WI 82 (if I am reading it correctly.  I believe since 2011, MN has widened the lead.
WI had more champs in 2011 but Tony Nelson alone would add three, and a runner-up for MN (so at worst a tie for champs)

http://mwolverine.com/Top_Wrestling_States.html

[ramjet]

looks like we should be emulating PA and Iowa

[Army Ant]

Looks like IA & OK may be the best "per capita." I think they have significantly lower populations than all of those other states near the top.

[Handles II]

looks like we should be emulating PA and Iowa

Ah, so that's your comeback? Not "Sorry MnB and HII, you were correct, I was wrong", but rather deferring to something completely different. Always good for a chuckle RJ, always good for a chuckle.  

I would certainly love it if WI were miles ahead of MN, but it isn't the case. You probably could have looked that up before opening your mouth? I think if we dropped into D2 and D3 as well as NJCAA the gap would be even wider.

[ramjet]

Ram,
I think it's obvious we look at MN because we have a larger population and they are the next level above WI as the numbers showed. I think we all no it's unrealistic to catch MI, IL or Iowa.
Ram,
Every state we touch is much better so shouldn't we look at what we have been doing wrong for the past 20+ years.

Listen this is about the WIAA open records law. Somehow......mainly because of MN Badger the thread got side tracked because he cannot help himself. HandlesII I think works in MN but may still live in Wisconsin so I have no issue with him chiming in. The MNbadger lives in MN and frankly this is not his business (just saying). Now to say we have been doing things wrong for 20 years is the very least, a stretch. This State and some of the wrestling influential folks in this State are outstanding and I for one will not insult the work they have done or are doing. 20 years are you serious? That's ridiculous.

[MNbadger]

I did not sidetrack this thread Ramjet.  I asked a sincere question about the differing views of respective administrative entities and their members.
YOU are the one that perceived it as some sort of challenge.
My question remains the same.  Why is there this difference?  Is it perception.  Do the majority of the coaches feel this way?  Or, is it primarily fans?
As far as whose "business" this is is actually none of yours!  I grew up in WI, still have ties there. 
Do you still have children affected by this?  This would still not make it anymore your "business" than mine.  It may be more important to you for this reason but that's it.

[Handles II]

Interesting point Ramjet, that nobody outside of this state should have any input. Would you feel the same about someone from IA, or PA adding input or asking questions? Granted, the thread got sidetracked a bit, but we are still talking about the things MN is doing that WI doesn't or won't do. AND most importantly, you are the one that foolishly sidetracked it even further to make it about NCAA wrestling. As big of a fan of the sport as you say you are, I can't honestly believe that you actually thought WI was ahead of MN? But then again...