When is a team too small?

[ramjet]

How about allowing JV kids wrestle in a a tight fitting t-shirt and shorts....see how it goes at that level.  Then see if its something worth considering for varsity or not.  I know, its not the main problem.  But its one barrier that could easily be removed.

I think this is a good idea. We need to start trying things.

Me too because I think it will not make one bit of difference.

[Ghetto]

I agree, the amount of kids who don't wrestle because of the singlet is small, but having JV kids wrestle in board shorts and Under Armour, over time, might help. It might not. Those kids might come up with a different excuse of course. There is one kid in our school who says that's the only reason he doesn't come out, but I bet that it's not true.

[Handles II]

I agree, the amount of kids who don't wrestle because of the singlet is small, but having JV kids wrestle in board shorts and Under Armour, over time, might help. It might not. Those kids might come up with a different excuse of course. There is one kid in our school who says that's the only reason he doesn't come out, but I bet that it's not true.

Dang right it isn't true. Kids can say that all they want, but they know the real reason. fear.
Nobody seems to have a problem with Usain Bolt wearing a singlet do they? Any kids thinking he's not cool because of a singlet?

[ramjet]

I am not arguing Ghetto just think the reasons wrestling is not popular is so wide spread this is scratching the surface  and agree its worth a try. Just to see if it works some.

[Ghetto]

Ok. I didn't think you were arguing anyway.

We are fighting for kids against so many other things now. At Bay we have a ski team and a hockey team on top of the traditional basketball. I feel like I've done so much to build our program, yet we have 17 kids on our team, including one who hasn't shown up so I can kick him off for not showing up. It's the reason I overreacted to the original post in this thread.

[DocWrestling]

Doc doesn't believe that underclassmen should wrestle varsity and many kids who wrestle 106 are 9th and 10th graders. And that it's a weight with many forfiets. He's explained himself on many occasions about this.

Many of us will disagree, stating that lower weights for smaller kids is an absolute plus for our sport (and those small kids) regardless of their grade.

This is my opinion in that varsity athletics should be catered to juniors and seniors and JV athletics should be catered to freshman and sophomores.  With a sport dependent on weight there is no way that both JV and varsity should have the same weight classes just like cadets add lower weight classes.  It is a fact that freshman/sophomores weigh less than juniors/seniors.

The opposite is that we should add weight classes so more of these freshman at 138 and 145 could get a chance to wrestle varsity.  For some reason a 138 freshman will not quit after spending a year or 2 on JV developing but a 102 lb freshman cannot spend a couple years on JV?

At some point what is healthy for the sport may have to trump what works for a few individuals.  A healthy varsity sport develops and prepares athletes for varsity over their freshman and sophomore years and only those elite few are able to break through and wrestle varsity as underclassmen. I am willing to bet that in D1, wrestling has more 9th and 10th graders competing on varsity than any other sport.  I see that as a problem and not a positive to promote.  Wrestling does not just need to recruirt to fill weight classes, they need to recruit to even have back-ups/JV's.

Remember every survey of HS athletes states that the #1 reason they participate is to have fun.  Maybe everything wrestling does needs focus on making it more fun for the majority.  I think a uniform change/option, fewer weekends, ect are all a good start.  I think there are a lot of underclassmen that would just love to compete against other underclassmen in a team JV format rather than being thrust immediately into the pressure and intensity of varsity action.

Just my crazy thoughts

[ecnorth]

I get that the uniform is just an excuse for some, but it is still an excuse....why not eliminate it!  There are a lot of parents of kids of all age groups that dont want their kids to have to wear a singlet so the number gained might be more than we think.  if not, nothing lost either way.  We certainly arent going to lose any kids if we try it.  I know its a huge thing in our middle schools.

[1Iota]

Doc doesn't believe that underclassmen should wrestle varsity and many kids who wrestle 106 are 9th and 10th graders. And that it's a weight with many forfiets. He's explained himself on many occasions about this.

Many of us will disagree, stating that lower weights for smaller kids is an absolute plus for our sport (and those small kids) regardless of their grade.

This is my opinion in that varsity athletics should be catered to juniors and seniors and JV athletics should be catered to freshman and sophomores.  With a sport dependent on weight there is no way that both JV and varsity should have the same weight classes just like cadets add lower weight classes.  It is a fact that freshman/sophomores weigh less than juniors/seniors.

The opposite is that we should add weight classes so more of these freshman at 138 and 145 could get a chance to wrestle varsity.  For some reason a 138 freshman will not quit after spending a year or 2 on JV developing but a 102 lb freshman cannot spend a couple years on JV?

At some point what is healthy for the sport may have to trump what works for a few individuals.  A healthy varsity sport develops and prepares athletes for varsity over their freshman and sophomore years and only those elite few are able to break through and wrestle varsity as underclassmen. I am willing to bet that in D1, wrestling has more 9th and 10th graders competing on varsity than any other sport.  I see that as a problem and not a positive to promote.  Wrestling does not just need to recruirt to fill weight classes, they need to recruit to even have back-ups/JV's.

Remember every survey of HS athletes states that the #1 reason they participate is to have fun.  Maybe everything wrestling does needs focus on making it more fun for the majority.  I think a uniform change/option, fewer weekends, ect are all a good start.  I think there are a lot of underclassmen that would just love to compete against other underclassmen in a team JV format rather than being thrust immediately into the pressure and intensity of varsity action.

Just my crazy thoughts

I agree that we should not create weight classes that cater to the underclass man, & I also agree that We should expect that most frosh & sophs are on JV not varsity. But eliminating the 106 will eliminate a number of smaller kids from the sport entirely.  We have already seen numerous upperclassman competing at this weight class in the last few years.  The truth is that with the growth allowance 106 becomes 109 (almost your targeted 110) but the time State comes around.  The other truth is that with weight cutting many of the competitors in this weight class weigh 120+ naturally.  The other reality is that there are more forfeits at the higher weights that  the lower weights.  Why is this ignored.  Let's stop trying to make it even tougher for the smaller athlete to compete in the one sport that has traditionally had a place for them. 

[DocWrestling]

I agree on everything other than the fact there are "numerous" upperclassmen competing at 106.

I have also proposed the following which would actually help the little guy.
1) Eliminate growth allowance
2) Eliminate extra pounds on consecutive days
3) Require all wrestlers to compete at their regional weight or lower in more than 75% of their matches from January 1st on or 50% over entire season.

This will make 110 an actual 110 and make it much more difficult for those that want to cut down.  Reward those wrestlers that choose the right weight class and one they can grow into.  Reward those that are strong and healthy and not those starving and cutting.

It does not help the 102 lber to try and wrestle on Saturday of state when they can weigh 111 lbs and more by the time finals occurs.

Even better wuld be matside weigh-ins whcih would make it more fair for the little guys and the guys not cutting.

[ramjet]

Ok. I didn't think you were arguing anyway.

We are fighting for kids against so many other things now. At Bay we have a ski team and a hockey team on top of the traditional basketball. I feel like I've done so much to build our program, yet we have 17 kids on our team, including one who hasn't shown up so I can kick him off for not showing up. It's the reason I overreacted to the original post in this thread.

I understand it is no where near as simple as some may think. Each school has a unique culture and set of circumstances so there is few one thing fixes all solutions.

[Handles II]

I agree on everything other than the fact there are "numerous" upperclassmen competing at 106.

So those kids who are Jr.s and Sr.s who are 106 should be told to grow or find a different sport?

I simply oppose your view that wrestling should cater to upperclassmen. One of the best parts of this sport is that the the little guy be he a freshman (or 7th/8th grader JHI ROCKS!  ) can be just as important to the team as the team captain at 170. It as a variablity that is not seen in other sports. It adds to the complexity of it. It adds to the value of this sport. Those are things that can't be seen in a box score. I'm all in favor of kids getting experience on JV as I've said, but I can't change the genetics of a kid. I can't determine when they will grow. Thus keeping the lower weights is important from my viewpoint as a coach.

[ramjet]

I get that the uniform is just an excuse for some, but it is still an excuse....why not eliminate it!  There are a lot of parents of kids of all age groups that dont want their kids to have to wear a singlet so the number gained might be more than we think.  if not, nothing lost either way.  We certainly arent going to lose any kids if we try it.  I know its a huge thing in our middle schools.

Parents...really same ones who will let daughters go out and play volleyball in skin tight shorts?

Heck 7&8th grade kids can wear shorts and tight tees so go to your school and get rid of the singlet let them wrestle. When your school goes along with this please come back and let us know how many of the 7&8th graders actually go into HS and stick with it. If it makes difference it would be nice to know.

[foose4]

Flambeau and Shell Lake had a dual. Two matches were wrestled. But we don't have too many weight classes.

Merrill and Stratford wrestled a dual.....took 2 hours and had 14 matches so maybe we don't have too many weight classes...

[DocWrestling]

Here is a challenge I am interested in finding out. 

How many times has a senior wrestled another senior at 106 this year?

How do those numbers compare to other weight classes?  Should that matter?   Is it fair?

I would make a hypothesis that our present weight classes leave out or discriminate against more seniors not having the the chance to wrestle varsity(numbers of wrestlers and talent in those middle weights) than they leave out undersized seniors with no weight class that fits them.

Wrestling cannot meet the needs of every individual without risking hurting the sport in general.  In my opinion.

[ramjet]

Doc

My son wrestled Seniors his freshman year many actually he did as sophomore and junior what's the big deal?