When is a team too small?

[bman]

If some schools have a tough time fielding a full team, keep trying to get more kids to go out for the sport.  Work harder to promote it.  Reducing the number of weight classes to avoid forfeits is essentially throwing in the towel.  How does reducing the number of kids needed to fill the line up by reducing the number of weight classes help the sport?
What about when some schools still can't avoid forfeits after a reduction in the number of weight classes takes effect? What then, eliminate more weight classes?
How many weight classes do you drop? Guess what, you will still see the same number of matches in a dual.... congratulations, but no forfeits...
A school that does a good job of getting kids to go out for the sport may win more dual meets because they don't have holes in their line up.  Good for them. 
Promote the sport, recruit kids to go out in middle school and stick with it. 

[BIEBS]

Good discussion!  A few things that I would like to see changed is the length of the High School Season.  Lets start in December to avoid thankgiving and deer season.  Kids/parents/ coaches are sick of all day tournaments every weekend.  There is no need to get 45+ matches in before state.
Cutting the number of weight classes will not help our sport, in fact I believe it will further hurt our sport.

What we are doing to change our sport:
We are now looking or multi duels on a Friday night were we can get 3 matches and give our kids the weekend off.  We also plan on hosting them.  If the other teams doesnt want a to count it as a tournament or wrestle multiple times we will set the first dual at 4:30 start...second dual at 6pm and a third team at 7:30...that way we can still have our "multi event" and they can count it as one dual.

[Chedd]

If some schools have a tough time fielding a full team, keep trying to get more kids to go out for the sport.  Work harder to promote it.  Reducing the number of weight classes to avoid forfeits is essentially throwing in the towel.  How does reducing the number of kids needed to fill the line up by reducing the number of weight classes help the sport?
What about when some schools still can't avoid forfeits after a reduction in the number of weight classes takes effect? What then, eliminate more weight classes?
How many weight classes do you drop? Guess what, you will still see the same number of matches in a dual.... congratulations, but no forfeits...
A school that does a good job of getting kids to go out for the sport may win more dual meets because they don't have holes in their line up.  Good for them. 
Promote the sport, recruit kids to go out in middle school and stick with it. 

I hate the argument that having less weight classes lessens the opportunities for wrestlers. That's why there is JV. Not everyone can be on varsity. Football doesn't create a 13th position to get more kids involved. Baseball doesn't add a 10th fielder. So what if a kid can't make it onto varsity. If they truly want to wrestle, they are going to work their butt off till they can make varsity or they may be content being on JV(and there's nothing wrong with that). Otherwise, why not have 20-25 varsity weight classes? That way everyone can wrestle varsity and feel good about themselves.
--Crossface21


How about we promote the JV aspect of our sport. Right now it's considered embarrassing at some schools because if you are one of the 2-3 kids on JV you obviously stand out as being the worst on the team. There are plenty of kids wrestling varsity that are not varsity caliber and are only out there so the team can be more full. Count the number of kids at your conference tourneys that would be better served wrestling JV.

Another reason to have fewer weight classes is shorter tournaments. Getting kids home at 7 versus 9 on a Saturday night would be a good thing. It would also make Friday night tourneys more possible, which would free up a kid's weekend. This is huge for families that aren't wrestling families and kids that are trying out the sport.

What are the benefits of having additional weight classes?
-More wrestling opportunities------->answered through JV matches
-Not having varsity caliber wrestlers sidelined to JV due to competitive lineups------>happens in all sports, sorry, nobody is guaranteed a varsity spot in other sports just because they are good.

[Chedd]

Good discussion!  A few things that I would like to see changed is the length of the High School Season.  Lets start in December to avoid thankgiving and deer season.  Kids/parents/ coaches are sick of all day tournaments every weekend.  There is no need to get 45+ matches in before state.

Friday night tourneys are the answer.

Getting in a ton of matches helps my team. I have a lot of kids that have never wrestled before high school and they need the matches. Each chance to get their hand raised helps. Coaches can currently do what they want regarding tournaments. Lets leave the option to get 45+ matches. If it makes the kid better by not having matches, coaches will take that into consideration when making schedules. It doesn't seem any have yet though. I would take matches over practice at this level. Give the kids a day off or their afternoon off by not having practice.

At certain schools deer hunting is not an issue. Plan accordingly, have optional practices, etc. I would think if we started a week sooner and made a requirement to only be allowed X number of practices before December 1, it would level out the playing field, make the start of the season a little less intense and give a reason not to have as many practices over break.

[neutral]

I am not going to name the school because I don't want to drag anyone through the mud, but I use to hear all of the reasons that our HS program had low numbers year after year.  No tradition, kids have changed, succesfull basketball program, football players want to lift in the offseason, ect.  A few years ago we hired a young dedicated coach who didn't want to hear any excuses.  He combed the hallways recruiting any kid who would listen.  He dedicated himself not only to the HS program, but the youth club & middle school program as well.  He encouraged the youth coaches to teach fundamentals & make it fun so the kids would learn to love the sport.  Here we sit a few years later & not only do we field a full varsity roster, but we have one of the larger JV teams in the area.  We also have experienced success on the Mat.  My point is that you need someone who is truly driven to build his program.  

Bingo!

building JV into a relavant activity ...

emphasis on the team aspect of wrestling ...

less weight classes (except that the first place people generally want to talk about is 106) ...

reasonable co-ops (where population drives the decision) ...

... all reasonable discussions - but no more than recruiting ... by coaches and team members (within their own schools).

Understanding that many coaches do go above & beyond in this area - some don't ... or certainly not nearly as much as others.

One thing that has not been discussed - and I'm sure this is going to stir some muck - is requiring or giving priority to teachers for coaching positions.  I'm sure there are many situations where the coach is not the most capable person in the community to coach (any sport).  Love and smarts of the sport ... & desire to work with kids and build the sport ... should be the qualifications that all interested candidates should be evaluated on.  I know nobody does it for the pay - but there are degrees of spirit, skill, & leadership.  In what other arena in life does competition & success come from direction of other than the best qualified.

[BIEBS]

Those are possible options...however most coaches I speak with already have a hard enought time with the majority of kids coming to practice on a routine basis. So practices are already "optional" for the most part.   (except the schools that have a rich tradition of wrestling and wrestling families)
I agree that matches are good to get for new kids, but we have to figure out a way to do it without subjecting them to "every weekend all day tournaments" 
* I'd love to see the Wiaa change the rule on scrimmages with other teams or holding practices once in a while with other schools.
* our sport is not going to be hurt if the season is shortened...in fact I would be it only would create more interest in our sport.
For the most part if kids want to keep wrestling there is freestyle and greco tournaments or off season tournaments that are running or could be run which are alot more relaxed and fun. 

What other sports go every weekend?  football? nope,  Basketball? nope  swimming and hockey yes....probly why they have a hard time with numbers also.

I also believe the school needs to invest more into our sport by hiring teachers that want to coach wrestling.  In our school the emphasis is in on basketball and football.  We only have 1 teacher that has a wresting background.  I have seen this work for Marinette this year. 

[Handles II]

Coaches don't have to schedule tournaments each weekend. I used to think that more touranaments/matches was better, now I know that isn't true. My wrestlers, parents and assistants love having a weekend off (or more) each month. You know what? So do I.  My guys will cap off the regular season with 25-32 matches. Having 10 more matches isn't going to make them a state champion, and if most of those are losses as it will be for some kids, it just makes them feel even more like they don't belong in the sport.

If we look at the history of our sport and weight classes, we have quite honestly seen the same pattern and philosophy; Add more weights to get more kids wrestling. That hasn't worked. If anything it has backfired. We absolutely jumped the shark going to 14.

I doubt if anyone here can look back and say "Aaron Rodgers should not have sat behind Favre for three years, he should have been a starter his rookie year, all it did was hurt his abilities and ego to be 2nd string."

I really believe we should go back to 12-13 asap and basically align ourselves with the college weights to keep some consistancy in our sport with two lower and perhaps something in that 215 range.

[ramjet]

Coaches don't have to schedule tournaments each weekend. I used to think that more touranaments/matches was better, now I know that isn't true. My wrestlers, parents and assistants love having a weekend off (or more) each month. You know what? So do I.  My guys will cap off the regular season with 25-32 matches. Having 10 more matches isn't going to make them a state champion, and if most of those are losses as it will be for some kids, it just makes them feel even more like they don't belong in the sport.

If we look at the history of our sport and weight classes, we have quite honestly seen the same pattern and philosophy; Add more weights to get more kids wrestling. That hasn't worked. If anything it has backfired. We absolutely jumped the shark going to 14.

I doubt if anyone here can look back and say "Aaron Rodgers should not have sat behind Favre for three years, he should have been a starter his rookie year, all it did was hurt his abilities and ego to be 2nd string."

I really believe we should go back to 12-13 asap and basically align ourselves with the college weights to keep some consistancy in our sport with two lower and perhaps something in that 215 range.

I agree with aligning with college weights.

[ramjet]

If some schools have a tough time fielding a full team, keep trying to get more kids to go out for the sport.  Work harder to promote it.  Reducing the number of weight classes to avoid forfeits is essentially throwing in the towel.  How does reducing the number of kids needed to fill the line up by reducing the number of weight classes help the sport?
What about when some schools still can't avoid forfeits after a reduction in the number of weight classes takes effect? What then, eliminate more weight classes?
How many weight classes do you drop? Guess what, you will still see the same number of matches in a dual.... congratulations, but no forfeits...
A school that does a good job of getting kids to go out for the sport may win more dual meets because they don't have holes in their line up.  Good for them. 
Promote the sport, recruit kids to go out in middle school and stick with it. 

Recruiting is not the issue all the time. Or the answer especially if you not have the numbers to draw from.

Reducing the number of weight classes offers better competition and allows for less forfeits the numbers do not lie its simple math.

[DocWrestling]

When thinking for the overall majority of the sport and health of the sport

1) Need to eliminate a lower weight class below 126.  106, 113, and 120 need to be combined into 2 weight classes)
106 is too light so I would think of something like 110 and 118 and then right to 126

2) Need to eliminate an upper weight class.  I see no reason to have a 220 and a 285 at the high school level.  College does not even have that.  I would bump up 195 to 200 and then eliminate 220.

Just got rid of 2 weight classes at the extremes and where a large majority of the forfeits are.  Now I would just space them out between 126 and 182 and eliminate one more.

Maybe we even have back-ups to wrestle when someone is injured.

[ecnorth]

How about allowing JV kids wrestle in a a tight fitting t-shirt and shorts....see how it goes at that level.  Then see if its something worth considering for varsity or not.  I know, its not the main problem.  But its one barrier that could easily be removed.

[Ghetto]

How about allowing JV kids wrestle in a a tight fitting t-shirt and shorts....see how it goes at that level.  Then see if its something worth considering for varsity or not.  I know, its not the main problem.  But its one barrier that could easily be removed.

I think this is a good idea. We need to start trying things.

[aarons23]

When thinking for the overall majority of the sport and health of the sport

1) Need to eliminate a lower weight class below 126.  106, 113, and 120 need to be combined into 2 weight classes)
106 is too light so I would think of something like 110 and 118 and then right to 126

2) Need to eliminate an upper weight class.  I see no reason to have a 220 and a 285 at the high school level.  College does not even have that.  I would bump up 195 to 200 and then eliminate 220.

Just got rid of 2 weight classes at the extremes and where a large majority of the forfeits are.  Now I would just space them out between 126 and 182 and eliminate one more.

Maybe we even have back-ups to wrestle when someone is injured.

Please explain to me why in your opinion 106 is to light?  Tell that to the Zach Zshors and Eric Forsyths....the great thing about this sport is it includes all shapes and sizes.....do not try to fit us in a box.  Reducing weight classes as some else says is throwing in the towel.  It's a lot easier to just reduce weight classes than to build programs.  Reducing weight classes will make the stronger even stronger and the week will still struggle to fill weight classes.  

[Handles II]

Doc doesn't believe that underclassmen should wrestle varsity and many kids who wrestle 106 are 9th and 10th graders. And that it's a weight with many forfiets. He's explained himself on many occasions about this.

Many of us will disagree, stating that lower weights for smaller kids is an absolute plus for our sport (and those small kids) regardless of their grade.

[ramjet]

Where are most of the FF?

D1

D2

D3

No pattern?