Mr. Negative chiming in
based on seeds we where predicted to finish 7th
we finished 17th
that is 10 spots below prediction
3 other teams Northwestern, ODU and Pitt finished 4 spots below predictions based on seeds
so UW dropped 10 spots, and the next closest team dropped 4 spots.... wake up people
I have questioned Barry's ability to motivate and get his best from his wrestlers and was pounded on for doing so
I have said I hate this "March only matter" attitude knowing that top programs don't believe that. If March only matter why do we have yet another let down?
Bottom line, Barry has taken this team as far as he can take them, time for a new voice in the room and new mentality on the mat. I know some will support him to the grave but look at the facts, the last 20 years don't lie.
The best 4 year stretch of BD's career just so happen to be when DP was assistant
Considering MN finished 8th, I'd say the prediction of 7th would be waaay optimistic.
Seeds mean nothing. I do agree, though. Another disappointing season for MadBadgers.
Quote from: bigG on March 23, 2015, 08:54:30 AM
Considering MN finished 8th, I'd say the prediction of 7th would be waaay optimistic.
Seeds mean nothing. I do agree, though. Another disappointing season for MadBadgers.
MN wrestled pathetic
their entire season was pathetic, they where ranked #1 and suppose to have all these strong seniors... best place by any of them was 4th
oh and every other team finished within 4 spots of prediction or they moved up the list to a much higher placement.
It is going to be hard for any coach to do better when you get absolutely nothing from the in state talent.
When the out of state talent had very good success this year, is it fair to blame everything on Barry for the lack of success from the in state wrestlers?
Bottom line, if it is Barry or someone else, we need more from the kids from Wisconsin. People have been vocal that we need to get all our in state kids. Well the last few years we have...and they have not given the team much at the big 10 level.
We have not gotten all the in state talent.
That said, if the talent in the state is not Big Ten caliber, then we shouldn't recruit them. It's that simple. Yes you need kids to come in and be more than you expect them to be, but if they aren't there then go find someone that is.
Arizona State just pulled 5 of the top 20 kids. Betting none of them are actually from Arizona. Tons of kids go out of state to wrestle. The St. Paris Graham pipeline seems to be working.
I heard announcers saying that Bo Jordan had planned on coming to WI until the coaching changes. In it's simplest form, it shows that kids will follow the coach.
Even if Jordan and Taylor made it to the finals, based on the final team scores we probably would not have finished above 13th. And everyone would have met or exceeded their seed. Not sure how the 7th place prediction was determined. The limited amount of bonus points did hurt our team score.
What does it say about your program when kids end their commitment or interest in your program based on assistant coaches? It means Barry is either not very likable, or he takes no interest in the recruiting process and leaves it up to his assistant coaches. Either way it's not just recruiting and it's the production on the mat, and as fans we were teased with a 4th place finish a few years ago and now we have raised expectations and are continually told to be patient and to wait, the future is near! Well the future has been mediocre at best for the last decade.
Quote from: Wisconsin Wrestling Fan on March 23, 2015, 09:12:56 AM
Even if Jordan and Taylor made it to the finals, based on the final team scores we probably would not have finished above 13th. And everyone would have met or exceeded their seed. Not sure how the 7th place prediction was determined. The limited amount of bonus points did hurt our team score.
Not true, many 2nd place earn around 20 points so that would put us around 8th or 9th if that was added to our score
2nd place earns 12 points; 7th Place earns 4 points. Add in 3 points for advancement (4 on the frontside minus 1 on the backside) is 19 points.
12th place Illinois had 51, Wisconsin had 32.5. Okay we would have been 12th with 51.5.
Quote from: Wisconsin Wrestling Fan on March 23, 2015, 09:56:42 AM
2nd place earns 12 points; 7th Place earns 4 points. Add in 3 points for advancement (4 on the frontside minus 1 on the backside) is 19 points.
12th place Illinois had 51, Wisconsin had 32.5. Okay we would have been 12th with 51.5.
133 and 165 scored 14 points
your using the bare minimum, generally top seeds score bonus points, the average 2nd scores about 19-20 points for a total of 38 or 24 above what they scored add that to the 32.5 gives us 56.5 that puts us in 10th, a few bonus points puts us in 8th or 9th... Schopp scored 18.5 points and lost first round.
but hey, defend the only team to drop more than 4 spots... 10 total spots... all you wish
Personally I hate the philosophy also that the whole season is about March?
You learn to compete early and you cannot just mythically turn it on in March. And March success has not been there.
I do think you could also say this year that Iowa and Minnesota either overachieved at times or were beyond there peak with their NCAA's.
I just get frustrated when schools like Ohio St can pass us by and go right to national title! Or other schools like Edinboro, Lehigh, etc. In-state talent helps them.
If you are Barry Alvarez, you have two options. If you have in-state talent then you need a coach that can develop that. Not convinced that is Davis. If you do not have in-state talent you need a dynamic recruiter to bring young men to UW. That is not Davis.
I also think you need a great coach that knows how to balance the 9.9 scholarships to maintain depth and turnover.
I am not defending anything, I am stating facts on how many more points we would have scored.
I understand your point. Beyond the scoring discussion, I am sure Ryan and Isaac wanted to do better, and we had a couple shots at All Americans at other spots. Cousins, Robertson, and McCall were close - the last match they lost was to an All American.
Here are a couple of my comments from what I saw and heard
- Seems like we got too conservative at some points - to win a title you have to be more aggressive.
- We need to work the angles better on offensive takedowns - straight on shots don't always work well at the NCAA's.
- Need to create better scoring opportunities on opponents shots - front headlock series perhaps.
- We need to get better on the bottom across the board. Easier said than done sometimes, but if we want to place high as a team, we need to be able to get out from the bottom quickly if we choose down or if we are taken down. Takedowns alone are probably are not going to win the match.
I think my issue at 133 and 165 is that they both lost to guys that they have beaten before. All the matches were close but our guys were not the ones prepared during the biggest match of the season and they lost. One could say their opponents got better or peaked at the right time, and UW wrestlers leveled off a week too early.
I also would suggest we look to hit the weights hard in the offseason and get bigger and stronger.
Instead of weight cutting, let's do more weight lifting this offseason !!
I will defend one thing.
#3 Seed Isaac Jordan having to wrestle and beat # 2 Seed Mike Moreno just to become an All-American was as tough a Round of 12 draw anyone could get. Moreno blew it in his 1st round match and had won 3 consecutive wrestleback wins by pin. Jordan was coming off a tough loss to Walsh - Moreno had the momentum. As we know, Jordan won an 8 minute 8-6 match by sudden victory. Probably as great a win as any in Jordan's collegiate career.
In the other bracket, # 4 Seed Nick Sulzer got a bye because Pierce Harger was hurt, and became an All-American.
1 hour later, Jordan had to wrestle Sulzer. Jordan probably did not have much gas in the tank at that point. Those are the breaks, but it probably had an effect.
A few thoughts from the nose bleeds...
I love the tenacity of Ryan (Bradley) Taylor. I like the way he wrestles and I would say my favorite Badger. He clearly has passion. But dang it was disappointing to see him run right through a mat with wrestling still going on to avoid whatever he was trying to avoid. Shake the hand.
I hope that Jesse Thielke wrestles again for Wisconsin. I always hope to see him do well. He shows flashes.
I thought Isaac Jordan was as active on his feet and aggressive as he's ever been. His place is disappointing, but I thought his effort was great. He could have been a finalist just as easily IMO.
Frank Cousins did well to make the tournament. He wrestled a few decent matches. Not super aggressive. I wonder if the Michigan forum is blowing up over Massa giving up. The kid clearly didn't want to be out there in that round vs. Cousins.
Ricky Robertson is the real deal. He attacks and attacks. Even in the matches he lost, he was on offense. IDK if he's ever done a ton of lifting, but with his technique, I think it would put him in the top five if he was stronger.
Tim McCall will always be an enigma. He might be a high level freestyler with his double. He actually rode a kid and scored backpoints. I think in one match he had over 6 minutes of riding time. That really made me laugh.
Connor Medberry is impressive. He looks much more confident this year than last. He could be a national champion IMO. He struggles with the Telfords of the world because of their size, but the heavies right now are more like Connor's build than Telford's.
Overall, it is frustrating to see kids not go on bottom.
It was only my second tournament, but overall we need to build a bigger Wisconsin fan base. Penn State had two coach busses full of folks. Iowa shows up en masse. We were by the Wisconsin section, and there weren't many.
Sorry Ghetto but I do not expect fans to travel to watch the Badgers compete in wrestling. They are simply not a good enough program from top to bottom to get strong support from the fan base. Fans of all Wisconsin sports show up and support their teams and programs when the program competes and can demonstrate even a sliver of success. This Wrestling team under Davis has never given that to the supporters or fans of wrestling in the state of Wisconsin. Wisconsin has a strong wrestling community, fans came out for the Big Ten Championships last year, and pack the Kohl Center for High School events, but their is a weak level of commitment to the Badgers, and it is because the Badgers' wrestling program is mediocre at best. Changes need to be made, It would be hard to imagine that everyone involved in this program isn't doing everything possible to put out a winning program, but it is just not working.
All I hear about now is how many WI high school football coaches love Paul Chryst as they get questions answered, responds to e-mails, they get to meet him often, he puts on clinics, befriends them all etc. Heading to the UW football coaches clinic this Thursday which will be the first with Chryst as the big boss where he was only the assistant in the past.
What kind of relationship does Barry Davis have with HS coaches? What does he do to help and support WI high school wrestling?
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 23, 2015, 02:08:44 PMWhat kind of relationship does Barry Davis have with HS coaches? What does he do to help and support WI high school wrestling?
I think you got your causes and effects bass ackwards. The notion that WI is going to get to next level by building the WI farm system (high schools) which will lead to success at college level is extremely unlikely. Do you think the coach at West Virginia is building that program with WV wrestlers? Only a few states have that luxury.
I'm not dismissing the value of developing some synergy, but it is not going to be the initial driver for success.
More likely, getting some national recruits into Madison can elevate the program. That can help build enthusiasm for wrestling. I agree with some opinions in this thread that attracting recruits is a matter of having the right coaches here. I don't know if Barry Davis is a good foundation, and I don't mean that as a slight, such an evaluation is beyond me.
Jmo,With wrestling program will not take the big jump until they start getting some of the top out of state recruits,some of you need to realize that a lot of our in state top high school recruits are not div1 caliber.there hasn't been very many Alex derringer caliber kids that have gotten away,we even got theilke who by far was out top in state kid(how has that gone?).jmo,it may be time to get some new young blood in there that can pull in the top recruits.
I'm a fan of Sammie Henson. He's going to move from West Virginia after some success. His finalist was from PA. I agree that if the talent pool isn't here, you go elsewhere.
I don't have any other frame of reference, but Coach Davis is not visible to coaches in the state. Idk however that any B1G coaches work all that close with the high school coaches in their state.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 23, 2015, 02:08:44 PM
All I hear about now is how many WI high school football coaches love Paul Chryst as they get questions answered, responds to e-mails, they get to meet him often, he puts on clinics, befriends them all etc. Heading to the UW football coaches clinic this Thursday which will be the first with Chryst as the big boss where he was only the assistant in the past.
What kind of relationship does Barry Davis have with HS coaches? What does he do to help and support WI high school wrestling?
Good post! Your example is similar to a high school wrestling coach developing their youth program to achieve success at the high school level. Makes sense to me.
Quote from: Ghetto on March 23, 2015, 05:31:08 PM
I'm a fan of Sammie Henson. He's going to move from West Virginia after some success. His finalist was from PA. I agree that if the talent pool isn't here, you go elsewhere.
I don't have any other frame of reference, but Coach Davis is not visible to coaches in the state. Idk however that any B1G coaches work all that close with the high school coaches in their state.
Sure got Moisey to come out of nowhere at NCAA tourney! Peaking at the right time.
Jaguar hit the nail on the head and a lot of you keep giving me crap for saying it. The UW wrestling program went in the tank when Donny Pritlaff left. Barry Alvarez and Barry Davis should have kept their word and made Donny the head coach when Davis' contract was up. UW was getting some of the best recruits in the country and it had nothing to do with Barry Davis
So, do we now offer DP the job? I didn't follow most of the WV kids. Was this Sammie's rasslin' partner. If so, I worry. Would I like UW to wrestle more like Sammie? You bet! I'm partial to his wrestling skills. I always tried wrestling very much like he did/does; jiss not quite as well as he does/did. :) One of my favorites and an RPW Hall-of-Famer!
Quote from: Brett Favre on March 23, 2015, 11:38:00 PM
Jaguar hit the nail on the head and a lot of you keep giving me crap for saying it. The UW wrestling program went in the tank when Donny Pritlaff left. Barry Alvarez and Barry Davis should have kept their word and made Donny the head coach when Davis' contract was up. UW was getting some of the best recruits in the country and it had nothing to do with Barry Davis
If DP is the answer why did he not get the head job at Michigan? Wasn't he supposed to be the coach in waiting there? Is he going to get the head coach job at Rutgers? He is on his 4th assistant job now.
Pritzlaff is going to have to take a low level head coaching job and prove he can do it. He keeps shooting for positions that are coveted by guys who actually have experience as a head coach.
No he wasn't the coach in waiting at Michigan.
And Woody, Donny doesn't do what Donny wants. He got lied to and screwed over by Barry Davis and Barry Alvarez at UW. Davis was supposed to be done when his contract was up and Donny was to be the head coach. Alvarez renewed Davis' contract and Donny interviewed at Michigan without permission.
Believe me, I was involved in Donny getting promoted to assoc. head coach.
We were sitting in the Las Vegas airport when Barry fired Donny.
If Alvarez would have kept his word that Donny was going to be named head coach when BD's contract was up, Donny would be the head coach at UW and UW would be in the top 5 in the country.
You guys that think you know so much about this situation are clueless
I like Barry Davis, but I have to admit that if Donny P was announced as the new Badger head coach...I would be pretty excited about it.
http://m.espn.go.com/ncb/story?storyId=12571138
This definitely trumps the Sender firing. 14 NCAA berths in 17 years.
Quote from: Brett Favre on March 27, 2015, 09:32:00 PM
No he wasn't the coach in waiting at Michigan.
And Woody, Donny doesn't do what Donny wants. He got lied to and screwed over by Barry Davis and Barry Alvarez at UW. Davis was supposed to be done when his contract was up and Donny was to be the head coach. Alvarez renewed Davis' contract and Donny interviewed at Michigan without permission.
Believe me, I was involved in Donny getting promoted to assoc. head coach.
We were sitting in the Las Vegas airport when Barry fired Donny.
If Alvarez would have kept his word that Donny was going to be named head coach when BD's contract was up, Donny would be the head coach at UW and UW would be in the top 5 in the country.
You guys that think you know so much about this situation are clueless
Top 5 in the country? How do you come up with this statement?
Musky, It's hard for a basketball person like yourself to understand much about wrestling.
It is called recruiting top prospects.
I have to say, I was going to post this earlier but I've got to back Musky on this. How do you come up with this? Donny has not proven himself (yet?) to the level you would predict.
Quote from: Musky Hunter on March 29, 2015, 11:18:14 PM
Quote from: Brett Favre on March 27, 2015, 09:32:00 PM
No he wasn't the coach in waiting at Michigan.
And Woody, Donny doesn't do what Donny wants. He got lied to and screwed over by Barry Davis and Barry Alvarez at UW. Davis was supposed to be done when his contract was up and Donny was to be the head coach. Alvarez renewed Davis' contract and Donny interviewed at Michigan without permission.
Believe me, I was involved in Donny getting promoted to assoc. head coach.
We were sitting in the Las Vegas airport when Barry fired Donny.
If Alvarez would have kept his word that Donny was going to be named head coach when BD's contract was up, Donny would be the head coach at UW and UW would be in the top 5 in the country.
You guys that think you know so much about this situation are clueless
Top 5 in the country? How do you come up with this statement?
Ramblings of a supposed insider.
Brett, you're the one sounding a bit clueless.
I'm doubting the simple switch to Donny P. makes us top 5.
Some great posts! Maybe we will finally get to the root of the problem. When Donny came, Barry could still wrestle, and routinely put it to Donny. I think Donny would have had success whever he went, but it didn't hurt to have a world class partner to wrestle with. We have had the best assistants available come through and leave. Do you think JRob is wrestling, John S is going with Derringer? No. They have assistants that can make champs. If I was king, Barry could stay if was secure enough to build a great team.
Quote from: Brett Favre on March 30, 2015, 01:06:29 AM
Musky, It's hard for a basketball person like yourself to understand much about wrestling.
It is called recruiting top prospects.
Slammin the pumpkin pounder. I was waiting for this one. Hey it paid for my school and not a chance in heck I could of been a wrestler. Would of been a 6'4" heavy weight. Really don't understand how it plays into questioning your statement.
Yes, it is just logical that a basketball guy wouldn't understand recruiting top prospects. ???
" Davis was supposed to be done when his contract was up and Donny was to be the head coach. Alvarez renewed Davis' contract and Donny interviewed at Michigan without permission.
If Barry was "done" that's because it was a Barry Davis decision on his own to step down. And since BD changed his mind and decided not to leave for whatever reason, BA decided to renew his contract because he wanted to come back. He's the head coach.
I suppose BA could have told BD "No, you said you're leaving. Donny is young, he's helped the program a lot. It's time to pass the torch." He could have done that.
But as I said on another post, BA thinks BD is a hero, so he's pretty much going to let him have the job.
I'm sure Donny probably did feel screwed. He should have resigned there and then if he felt that way.
But then he did something really, really stupid, and now, four years later, he's still an assistant. You think that's a conincidence?
Maybe he'll get the Michigan job eventually or maybe he'll become head coach at Rutgers someday, who knows?
But he'll never come back to UW and the feeling is mutual.
However at the end of the day it is still about results....If my classroom state test scores sit in the bottom half of the state on a consistent basis, the admin is going to be on my fat butt. I have sat in on teacher meetings where we are reminded that our test scores can and will be connected to our employment. Last year our 3 school district had two teachers non-renewed for teacher ineffectiveness (poor test scores two years in a row).
If it can happen here why not expect it at the collegiate level...and before anybody comments on Coach Davis's integrity, it has nothing to do with his impecible personal life, but rather just the results.
Look what Tony Bennett has done at doormat Virginia...new blood is not evil.
"rather judging the end results. "
But my argument is the end results are similar to that of previous UW coaches. So why is Davis being held to a higher standard? I don't recall Andy Rein being criticized to the same extent (but then again, of course, the internet was that extensive back then).
I think lot of the animosity thrown at Davis goes back to the whole Pritzlaff fiasco. There is a belief UW was on the cusp of greatness four years ago and maybe so. It's too bad Donny didn't want to be a part of it.
As for Davis' relations with the state's high school coaches, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle between loving and hugging and outright hosility (to which no UW coach could survive if that was the case). I think they're better than they were a decade or more ago. For every Deringer that's gotten away, if you look at the Badgers' roster, the bulk of the state's best high school wrestlers over the past four years is on the team for the most part, including two four-time state champions. Having Trevor Branvold on staff has really helped a lot and hopefully he start getting the in-state to do more for this program. I don't think there's any doubt he's being groomed for the top job someday. If you're looking for your next head coach, you're not going to have to look far. One thing Barry does do well is hire good assistants.
I have no doubt Kemp was magnet for good wrestlers to come to UW, especially from Ohio. I think having a national champion from Wisconsin on the UW squad could have the same effect. But as I said, somebody got to step up for that to happen.
Quote from: wrestlemania on April 03, 2015, 04:00:26 PM
"rather judging the end results. "
But my argument is the end results are similar to that of previous UW coaches. So why is Davis being held to a higher standard? I don't recall Andy Rein being criticized to the same extent (but then again, of course, the internet was that extensive back then).
I think lot of the animosity thrown at Davis goes back to the whole Pritzlaff fiasco. There is a belief UW was on the cusp of greatness four years ago and maybe so. It's too bad Donny didn't want to be a part of it.
As for Davis' relations with the state's high school coaches, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle between loving and hugging and outright hosility (to which no UW coach could survive if that was the case). I think they're better than they were a decade or more ago. For every Deringer that's gotten away, if you look at the Badgers' roster, the bulk of the state's best high school wrestlers over the past four years is on the team for the most part, including two four-time state champions. Having Trevor Branvold on staff has really helped a lot and hopefully he start getting the in-state to do more for this program. I don't think there's any doubt he's being groomed for the top job someday. If you're looking for your next head coach, you're not going to have to look far. One thing Barry does do well is hire good assistants.
I have no doubt Kemp was magnet for good wrestlers to come to UW, especially from Ohio. I think having a national champion from Wisconsin on the UW squad could have the same effect. But as I said, somebody got to step up for that to happen.
So you are saying when RT and Zeke win titles next year we should have a dominate recruiting class in 2016?
:)