195 pounds
1. Gable Steveson, Apple Valley (3) 8
2. Rylee Streifel, Prior Lake (2) 11
3. Justin Cumberbatch, Alexandria (8) 11
4. Jacob Briggs, Saint Michael-Albertville (7) 11
5. Nick Pegelow, Eastview (3) 12
6. Tristyn Hanson, Lakeville North (2) 11
7. Glenn Meyers, Blaine (7) 12
8. Dakota Johnson, Cambridge-Isanti (7) 12
9. Daryale Harris, Hastings (1) 12
10. Julius Ogunti, Park Center (5) 12
Should this 8th grader be wrestling middle schoolers? (he is wrestling up a weight too as he can't beat his brother)
He should probably not be wrestling in JR high. This kid is very very good to say the least. Cannt beat his brother but I would beat it wouldnt be that bad of a match. I would take a guess and say that families house probably has some broken chairs ;D
Where did they transfer from?
I thnk it was Indiana but don't remember off the top of my head.
Plenty of high schoolers have proven they can compete with collegiate wrestlers. Is that support for HS inclusion in college wrestling?
Quote from: Chedd on January 21, 2014, 10:05:37 PM
Plenty of high schoolers have proven they can compete with collegiate wrestlers. Is that support for HS inclusion in college wrestling?
Touche'
Not really a touche'.
Until recently many opens allowed this. I assume it stopped partly as it was tough on some egos.
You also are comparing two different situations.... one involves mostly adults mixing in competition with minors, the other doesn't.
Quote from: Chedd on January 21, 2014, 10:05:37 PM
Plenty of high schoolers have proven they can compete with collegiate wrestlers. Is that support for HS inclusion in college wrestling?
[/quote
Heck we didn't use to allow freshman in college to compete. Now we want 7th graders?
I see an abuse of inexperienced freshman and sophomores filling spots.
Yes, I know this and that is my point.
Howavi, where do you see this abuse? I see it with juniors and seniors some places but I don't see it as abuse.
Should we hold wrestlers out until we think they can win their weight class at state? It is up the the coach to determine what is ok.
I had a ninth grader once who started the season 2-0 and he went with no more wins the rest of the season. I asked him every week if he was still happy wrestling varsity. He was and stuck it out. It is an individual thing.
would you have thought it good for Schlatter or Dake to not wrestle as freshman? Even when red shirting they compete with all the other wrestlers.
When you have 7-8 inclusion everyone ends up in the right place competition-wise. I really don't think it is good for anyone to have an advanced 7th or 8th grader crushing all his junior high opponents. It doesn't help him and it doesn't really help his opponents.
Earlier many were complaining about forfeits and how it doesn't hurt a wrestler to get crushed by let's say a returning state champ.
Again, it is always up to the coach and the wrestler.
You can look to the west and you don't see any death and destruction of 7th and 8th grade wrestlers in MN.
Here is the thing that everyone seems to forget; AGE
He may be........ from an age standpoint, a freshman?
Look at the number of State Champions or even Top 5 in Wisconsin that are actually 19......
Any teacher will tell you most 8th graders leave for the summer and when they come back you may not even recognize them because the physical changes the exception is the kids help back and are older.
We had two one year that were both just under the cut off for 19 to be able to wrestle the difference in physical maturity was very evident. Both placed at State but were a full two years older than anyone in the room that year.
Yep, and some are young for their grade too, my kids were/are. My kids were a year younger than most the others they competed with.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 22, 2014, 10:46:17 AM
Howavi, where do you see this abuse? I see it with juniors and seniors some places but I don't see it as abuse.
Should we hold wrestlers out until we think they can win their weight class at state? It is up the the coach to determine what is ok.
I had a ninth grader once who started the season 2-0 and he went with no more wins the rest of the season. I asked him every week if he was still happy wrestling varsity. He was and stuck it out. It is an individual thing.
would you have thought it good for Schlatter or Dake to not wrestle as freshman? Even when red shirting they compete with all the other wrestlers.
When you have 7-8 inclusion everyone ends up in the right place competition-wise. I really don't think it is good for anyone to have an advanced 7th or 8th grader crushing all his junior high opponents. It doesn't help him and it doesn't really help his opponents.
Earlier many were complaining about forfeits and how it doesn't hurt a wrestler to get crushed by let's say a returning state champ.
Again, it is always up to the coach and the wrestler.
You can look to the west and you don't see any death and destruction of 7th and 8th grade wrestlers in MN.
Kids that would have been on a freshmen or jv squad when we were in HS are now filling a spot on varsity because they are the right size.
This has happened forever. It happened when was in high school (early to mid 70s) and before and since. It isn't just freshman and sophomores. I had years where I coached and we weren't as tough as other years. Some pretty inexperienced juniors and seniors end up in the same situation.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 22, 2014, 12:34:02 PM
This has happened forever. It happened when was in high school (early to mid 70s) and before and since. It isn't just freshman and sophomores. I had years where I coached and we weren't as tough as other years. Some pretty inexperienced juniors and seniors end up in the same situation.
I agree but you aren't going to lose them because of maturity, you will lose them because they are going to graduate. throwing a 12 year old out there to the wolves is bad for the sport.
Now I realize not all coaches will do that but more often than not, I see it. There are many kids that could compete, obviously they do in MN. Dennis Hall could have competed in 5th grade and he weighed about 70#.
It would be a very rare occasion that it would include a 12 yr old....more like 14 and 15 year olds with some 13.... But either way...it's not a mandate to wrestle them on high school but nation that should be in the parents and coaches hands. I have three boys that wrestle...my oldest would have been very competitive as an eighth grader....but now my middle, I doubt I would allow him to wrestle high school as an eight grader.
Thats was exactly my point Aaron I also think you can forget the grade thing and make it an age thing regardless of the grade they are in. Heck WWF uses age criteria and it works very well all they way through the Junior Division.
Bottom line is there are 100s if not 1000s of examples where a 7th or 8th grade wrestler is better than the varsity wrestler on their hometown team. WI needs to wake up and change the rule, even if it is on a trial basis.
Athletic directors won't bring it up seriously in their meetings. Most know nothing and care nothing about wrestling, and therefore the WIAA and Dave Anderson in particular would never see it come to them, nor approve it if it did.
There are also too many WI coaches that are against it because they don't understand it. I've got two assistants from WI who now completely understand and see the advantages of JHI after only 2 months in the room.
Keep in mind that JHI is not just for wrestling, but would have to be for ALL sports, just like the JV State Tourney. It can work but I think most AD's are against it for that reason more than anything.
Chuck
Quote from: chuckref on January 22, 2014, 03:07:15 PM
Keep in mind that JHI is not just for wrestling, but would have to be for ALL sports, just like the JV State Tourney. It can work but I think most AD's are against it for that reason more than anything.
Chuck
What do you mean by that? I don't think it does. We never used to have a separate team tournament but now we do. I think it could change back. Besides, we wouldn't have to name it a JV State Championship either. Could be regional.
Also, if a kid can compete on a varsity level he should be allowed to. It works in MN and many other states but of course it would never work here otherwise kids would get hurt or quit. Please ::)
I am pretty sure that Junior High Inclusion would have to be for all sports. Why would they just do it for Wrestling? I want to see JHI as much as the next guy. I'm just telling you why it probably won't happen here.
Chuck
It is done for all sports in MN.
Several years back one of the teams in the state tournament for hockey was an 8th grader.
There are basketball players (actually more in boys than girls curiously enough), track, wrestling, and many others.
I would suggest that WI as a state... without JHI (regardless or sport or academics) is hitting their head on the cave on the way home. My 8th grader, who also wrestles, is currently taking Advanced Placement 11th grade core Algebra II... and OBTW, the HS isn't even sure it counts towards his 3 years of math graduation requirement :-\ (even though his brother, who is a JR, is taking the same class and it does count towards that requirement). Either way, it is apparently his academic ability or advanced performance that resulted in his placement in this class. So... should he not be in this class because of his age? Should he not be in this class because his conventional peers could not keep up? It's apparent his capability in this particular area was higher than that of his peers. He also could wrestle with all our 9th and 10th grade wrestlers just fine and likely compete for a varsity spot... but he isn't. My point... if it works in the classroom (which is most important), why can't it work on the mat, the court, the field, or any other venue... either academic or sports oriented that our kids are involved in??
Quote from: ThirdTimeACharm on January 22, 2014, 04:10:36 PM
I would suggest that WI as a state... without JHI (regardless or sport or academics) is hitting their head on the cave on the way home. My 8th grader, who also wrestles, is currently taking Advanced Placement 11th grade core Algebra II... and OBTW, the HS isn't even sure it counts towards his 3 years of math graduation requirement :-\ (even though his brother, who is a JR, is taking the same class and it does count towards that requirement). Either way, it is apparently his academic ability or advanced performance that resulted in his placement in this class. So... should he not be in this class because of his age? Should he not be in this class because his conventional peers could not keep up? It's apparent his capability in this particular area was higher than that of his peers. He also could wrestle with all our 9th and 10th grade wrestlers just fine and likely compete for a varsity spot... but he isn't. My point... if it works in the classroom (which is most important), why can't it work on the mat, the court, the field, or any other venue... either academic or sports oriented that our kids are involved in??
I hear you on this, makes sense. Now for an extreme example, let's say the school offers a spanish class but will only do so if 14 kids sign up. 13 kids are all set to go but can't do it so they recruit a 7th grader to come on board.
Aaron, 7th graders are 12 yo to start the year unless held back, by normal curve, most would be 12 through the end of February.
JHI would have to be for all sports otherwise it just wouldnt fly! To much PC.
Every year at state time in other sports from wrestling you hear about an out of hand 8th grader in track, b-ball, hockey for both boys and girls. I think this past year one of the teams had a 8th grade lineman competing in the state championship. Big Boy though it could have been 2012 also.
If JHI is so good, they why is only 3 states doing it. I would figure Texas with football would be chomping at the bit to get some very good 8th graders in the starting lineup. I cannt remember where Calvin Johnson is from but wasnt he something like 6 foot and 180 pounds as an 8th grader? I would think a guy that size would start for most High School programs, I also figured he was an athlete back in his youth, dont think a guy like that just devolped out of no where. Do I have the right guy in Calvin Johnson or was it AJ Green or another.
Littleguy there are more than 3 states that have JHI,
Quote from: briggs on January 22, 2014, 01:20:23 PM
Bottom line is there are 100s if not 1000s of examples where a 7th or 8th grade wrestler is better than the varsity wrestler on their hometown team. WI needs to wake up and change the rule, even if it is on a trial basis.
Yep. My son could beat our varsity kid at his weight when he was in 6th grade. He wanted Wisconsin to make the change back then, so he could have that opportunity. I think this change could really benefit the small schools, especially if it allowed more of the middle school kids to participate in the high school practices.
Quote from: boowrestle on January 22, 2014, 09:11:29 PM
Littleguy there are more than 3 states that have JHI,
Cool, how many do then. I am sorry that I stated 3 but for some reasons that number rings in my head along with other things.
3 in the midwest?
Does MN have JH inclusion for all sports?
Quote from: MNbadger on January 22, 2014, 03:35:22 PM
It is done for all sports in MN.
Several years back one of the teams in the state tournament for hockey was an 8th grader.
There are basketball players (actually more in boys than girls curiously enough), track, wrestling, and many others.
My daughter would have loved competing in high school track as an 8th grader! It would have been good for her, too, IMO.
Quote from: Houndhead on January 22, 2014, 11:58:07 PM
Does MN have JH inclusion for all sports?
Pretty sure they do.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 23, 2014, 12:23:53 AM
Quote from: Houndhead on January 22, 2014, 11:58:07 PM
Does MN have JH inclusion for all sports?
Pretty sure they do.
Yes. MN for all sports. Not every school uses JHI though. Their option.
Still vote 8th grade only. For all sports.
I do like this addition to the inclusion rule. Not saying it would be a deal breaker for me.
In a sport where your school has a Freshman team an eight grader must make JV or Varsity you can not take a Freshman's spot on the Freshman team.
"In a sport where your school has a Freshman team an eight grader must make JV or Varsity you can not take a Freshman's spot on the Freshman team."
There are many schools that do this. Others let the chips fall where they may.
The fears about 7th and 8th graders and inclusion are unfounded. I don't understand the problem with those who don't want this.
the ones who aren't ready stay in their middle school/junior high program. Those that can and want to compete at the high school level can.
All the worries that people express on here are nearly non-existent in MN. There are just as many inexperienced upper classmen on the mat as 7th and 8th graders. In fact, I would argue more as most often a 7th or 8th grader is a kid who has been wrestling which is why they are good enough.
I just read earlier this week of a 9 year old girl that is averaging over 14 points a game on the high school team. She put up 63 points on her boys AAU team.
Found it. http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/jaden-newman-9-years-old-girls-varsity-basketball-star-orlando-63-points-one-game-15-points-average-012014
If a kid is good enough, he/she can outperform a competitor who is significantly older. Several decades ago, I remember watching my brother win a city wrestling championship as a 1st grader, by defeating a 6th grader in the finals. I also remember watching a 4th grader from my father's program dominate a regional bracket of 8th graders. When our daughter was in 4th grade, I watched her dominate an 8th grade male track star in a mile race. Some kids are just ready earlier than others.
I have rarely, if ever, noticed a 7th or 8th grader, that competes in MN with a losing record. Most are upper level competitors. High end, Outstanding individuals. That would not be the case in WI. Far too many coaches would "fill" their line up with MS wrestlers whether to actually compete or merely take a forfeit. In other sports; ie GBB, the athlete must be obviously better than her fellow upper-class team mates in order to play art a varsity level. Coming from Ellsworth I can honestly say that in 40+ years we have had no more than 1 or 2 MS age wrestlers that could have contributed on the varsity level .
Quote from: FinalWord on January 24, 2014, 11:36:26 AM
I have rarely, if ever, noticed a 7th or 8th grader, that competes in MN with a losing record. Most are upper level competitors. High end, Outstanding individuals. That would not be the case in WI. Far too many coaches would "fill" their line up with MS wrestlers whether to actually compete or merely take a forfeit. In other sports; ie GBB, the athlete must be obviously better than her fellow upper-class team mates in order to play art a varsity level. Coming from Ellsworth I can honestly say that in 40+ years we have had no more than 1 or 2 MS age wrestlers that could have contributed on the varsity level .
I get your point. I wonder how it went in Minnesota, when this was first adopted. That might give us some guidance in how to successfully implement it in a way that actually benefits the kids.
You could say that far too many coaches fill their line up with upper classmen who fulfill the same end.
The concern is the same but overlooked when it is a 9th, 10th, 11th, or 12th grade wrestler.
We "fill" our lineups with differing levels of ability all the time.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 24, 2014, 08:59:49 AM
"In a sport where your school has a Freshman team an eight grader must make JV or Varsity you can not take a Freshman's spot on the Freshman team."
There are many schools that do this. Others let the chips fall where they may.
The fears about 7th and 8th graders and inclusion are unfounded. I don't understand the problem with those who don't want this.
the ones who aren't ready stay in their middle school/junior high program. Those that can and want to compete at the high school level can.
All the worries that people express on here are nearly non-existent in MN. There are just as many inexperienced upper classmen on the mat as 7th and 8th graders. In fact, I would argue more as most often a 7th or 8th grader is a kid who has been wrestling which is why they are good enough.
In my opinion
the fear is it will empty out the middle school programs and everyone will just bump there kids to high school.
I am starting to feel it will do the opposite and allow the inexperienced middle school kids gain experience against like opponents and the excellent kids will move up and not be bored with middle school.
Quote from: FinalWord on January 24, 2014, 11:36:26 AM
I have rarely, if ever, noticed a 7th or 8th grader, that competes in MN with a losing record. Most are upper level competitors. High end, Outstanding individuals. That would not be the case in WI. Far too many coaches would "fill" their line up with MS wrestlers whether to actually compete or merely take a forfeit. In other sports; ie GBB, the athlete must be obviously better than her fellow upper-class team mates in order to play art a varsity level. Coming from Ellsworth I can honestly say that in 40+ years we have had no more than 1 or 2 MS age wrestlers that could have contributed on the varsity level .
I think there are plenty of talented kids that can fill roles and just like the 4th grader there are exceptions beyond HS at all levels, maybe not in Ellsworth or Rapids but I think there is a better chance of abuse. I could be wrong as it does seem to work at our neighbor to the West.
MNBadger, there is a difference between throwing a Junior to the wolves than a freshman or 7th grader.
"I am starting to feel it will do the opposite and allow the inexperienced middle school kids gain experience against like opponents and the excellent kids will move up and not be bored with middle school."
Yes! It makes it better for EVERYONE.
Quote from: FinalWord on January 24, 2014, 11:36:26 AM
I have rarely, if ever, noticed a 7th or 8th grader, that competes in MN with a losing record. Most are upper level competitors. High end, Outstanding individuals. That would not be the case in WI. Far too many coaches would "fill" their line up with MS wrestlers whether to actually compete or merely take a forfeit. In other sports; ie GBB, the athlete must be obviously better than her fellow upper-class team mates in order to play art a varsity level. Coming from Ellsworth I can honestly say that in 40+ years we have had no more than 1 or 2 MS age wrestlers that could have contributed on the varsity level .
I disagree, there are plenty of kids in Mn that have losing records, grades 7-12. I've worked at k-8 tournaments in WI and have seen plenty of 7-8 kids that could contribute and win in WI. I do fear that the emphasis on losing and winning is the issue when it shouldn't be. I have a 12th grader that has wrestled since kindergarten and he has 5 wins on the year and he is a stud in practice and summer camps. Mentally it isn't there for him. I'm noticing it is affecting him in other ways beyond the mat. I brought it up to his parents, we have decided to hold him out of competition for awhile. He is ok with the decision, somewhat relieved.
JHI or not, wins or losses, Coaches and parents need to pay attention to their wrestlers and do what is best for them.
In the end however JHI can add so much more than just some kids in a varsity line up.
QuoteI disagree, there are plenty of kids in Mn that have losing records, grades 7-12
Perhaps you missed one of my points. I should have underlined 7th and 8th graders that participate at the varsity level in wrestling that seldom have, or almost never have a losing record. If they're not exceptional they don't participate.
Quote from: FinalWord on January 24, 2014, 06:28:30 PM
QuoteI disagree, there are plenty of kids in Mn that have losing records, grades 7-12
Perhaps you missed one of my points. I should have underlined 7th and 8th graders that participate at the varsity level in wrestling that seldom have, or almost never have a losing record. If they're not exceptional they don't participate.
I was looking at your post times and werent you suppose to be working at the middle school tournments?
In Minnesota I have seen quite afew 7th and 8th graders that do NOT make the varisity and compete in the middle school.
I will also say that those that do compete in high school as a middle schooler are probably some serious studs to say the least. Men amoung boys would be my saying.
In the past decade I have seen some middle schoolers that would compete well at the high school level but also most of them would be in the lighter weights. I have seen a couple of heavier weigh guys that could have competed but being 500 would be the extent of it.
I think Ellsworth has had a few more than just 1 or 2 but I also will not say more than a half dozen. You should ask you buddy the legendary middle school coach that now hides his ID as a ref ;) I think he would know some stuff also.
"MNBadger, there is a difference between throwing a Junior to the wolves than a freshman or 7th grader."
Not as much of a difference as you imagine Howavi. There are plenty of older kids who get shattered being thrown to the wolves. Does it not matter if they are juniors or seniors. Sure, as a rule older kids MIGHT be better at handling it. Usually though the younger kids are lighter and for the most part it is uneventful like it is in most cases. If you have a particularly soft kid you take it on a case by case basis (and then get called names when you forfeit!). The truth is I think the young guys are better at handling it as they put less presure on themselves.
I don't mean to step on toes her but it seems I am wasting my time. There aren't piles of dead and dying 7th and 8th graders in MN due to them wrestling varsity. For the most part Mn/WI are quite similar. I believe this is one of the reasons our wrestling is better (I have lived both places and been involved in wrestling in both places).
Good gosh, we have an 8th grader ranked #1 at 195 and he is wrestling UP a weight. Trust me, the majority of 7th and 8th graders are at light weights and they are doing great win or lose.
Where is the evidence of you worries?
I agree with you MN on all points except the age. I know it works in MN which should be no reason it doesn't work here.
Proof of my fears are kids with 5 days of practice, not overly athletic, put on varsity in the majority of our 330 HS. I don't live or attend matches in MN so I have no idea if that happens or use to happen and maybe as you say it doesn't matter on age, again, you live it not me. I'm assuming that the team is going to lose some of the kids thrown to the wolves so to speak. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd think that would effect a program more to lose 7th grade new comers than 11th grade new comers.
I'm not even against jhi, I just fear the how it is implemented by the many of the programs in the state. I wish we had it, when I was in 7th grade, I could have been on my brothers team. I love the practice together but I believe that can be done now (provided adequate space).
A few years ago, when they were talking about forfeits and not filling out line ups, I believe Minnesota was on pace with Wisconsin in that department.
Minnesota has kids quit, get burnt out, and the tar beat out of them only not to be on the team the following year.
I think that there open enrollment with the students is a bigger thing than JHI in Minnesota. Kids move freely around the school system at will and often 2-3 times in high school.
If you get that many transfers and good ones, heck your bound to get some good competition in the room if 3 state champs from other schools move into your district.
I am on the fence with JHI, but the example of this 8th grader shouldnt be the prime example for JHI. While I am saying nothing bad about him, he is a stud but you also have to take a look at what the parents have spent on him for wrestling, moving from one state to another to wrestle.
Tough to compare what I feel is a normal JR high kid to a kid that is being used in this situation.
"I'm assuming that the team is going to lose some of the kids thrown to the wolves so to speak."
Yes, and this has been happening since wrestling started. Kids quit all the time. Someone on this thread already mentioned they have an upper classman who is a tough wretler in the room and he can't handle competition. His coach decided to pull him out of competition.
Every year that I coached our high school we had at least one and usually two 7th and/or 8th graders who were major contributors. This was when we were quite competitive. In fact, it killed us for the first few years when we were in the On the Water Classic. We were leaving 20 and more points per wrestler home because at that time they couldn't compete.
I question I have about the MN 7th and 8th graders are they home grown from MN, or are they transfers from other states making them elite kids. There is a huge difference from putting the average 7th grader out there compared to a transfer who is by no means average.
Tews, there are MANY more 7th and 8th graders contributing to their respective varsity teams than the marque wrestlers you mention.
Honestly NONE of the perceived issues that the anti-inclusion proponents occur here in MN (at least to any more of a degree than they do with wrestlers from 9-12th grade).
It is tiresome to debate this and have people stubbornly hung onto beliefs that are and have been constantly, daily disproved right across the border.
Yes, stick with what you are doing. Watch all the destruction of wrestlers in MN due to their wrestling as 7th and 8th graders on their varsity teams. Be assured that you are making the right decision.
If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got. Does Wisconsin aspire to improve, or are we satisfied with current trends?
When I compare I am comparing 7th and 8th grade against juniors and seniors. I need to be more in the game.
I just checked out some Minnesota scores from the past weekend. It does look that quite a few 7th and 8th graders are competing very well against kids of their own age. I see many 7th and 8th graders going at each other and doing well but I also see more in the lighter weights.
If your going to have JHI you also have to realize that it could in Wisconsin basically take away the middle school wrestling. I see many teams in my area that have fewer than 12 wrestlers on it with most of them 7th and 8th graders. I also see some teams with uppers of 30 or so on them with 20 in the 7th and 8th grade range.
The gap in Wisconsin would be pretty big if you ask me. What do you then do with the 6th and lower grades?
Most of those kids many 5th graders are in the youth and practice 2 or so nights a week and most schools will not support a team of middle school kids of 10 or less 6th graders. So what do you do with the 6th graders then?
I just see a huge gap in practice and I also see that if you have JHI you may lose some wrestlers that will not go out in 7th or 8th grade because they will be with the varsity and there learning curve will be very short.
People have to realize that some Wisconsin schools will either be all in or all out on this. I think the middle ground is going to very rare. And I also think in some cases that it will take wrestling down in those very important ages of the pre-teens and early teens.
While I am not against the idea of JHI, in Wisconsin it just is not a lets do it next year plan, it has to be well thought out and planned out and that will involve the schools and the AD to be very well educated in this. That is where I get leery, because some AD know nothing about wrestling and they will do nothing to help the JHI grow and work the best it should.
LG,
First, JHI inclusion isn't going to happen any time soon in WI, you can ease your fears that it might happen next year. The WIAA as it sits right now, and the majority of A.D.'s have no interest in doing anything to promote or improve wrestling, and probably less than 1/2 of the coaches in the state (those who have first hand experience with JHI) would at this time support it.
I believe MN teams, as a whole, have an advantage vs. WI teams in part due to JHI. That said, there are teams in WI that can beat MN teams and vice versa. From a coaching standpoint, there is a huge difference. I'm currently working daily with my 7th graders, across the river the head coach may not even know the 7th graders or what they are doing in practice. Middle School parents are attending our events, helping with our fundraising, etc. Is that type of cooperation happening between the HS and MS in wisconsin? Based on programs that I'm familiar with, it isn't. There is a gap between youth and high school, kind of a no-man's land. Really good kids often don't even wrestle with their middle schools, but stick with club. What is the message that sends to the kids in middle school? In mn, the really good kids and the average, and the beginers are all working together with the same coaching staff.
Recently my MS guys went to a MS tournament in Wi. I only had 9 kids competing, 6 were beginers this year. We went 20-6 in our matches. The difference, I believe, isn't that i'm a superior coach, or these are better athletes (all but one has losing records in MN) but that they have been practicing with the varsity each day, doing the same things, their conditioning and technique even as 1st year wrestlers was much better than the WI kids. We had similar results last year. It doesn't mean my guys will be come elite wrestlers, it just means they have a big jump on the Wi kids, and this will probably increase their confidence and willingness to stay in the sport. If not, it didn't hurt a thing to have them with us.
I don't have a good team (yet) but I know the advantage that I have over a coach in WI who is also trying to build a program that is in a similar hurt as mine is that JHI gives me and my coaches direct contact with the MS guys each day.
Quote from: Handles II on January 26, 2014, 11:36:21 AM
LG,
First, JHI inclusion isn't going to happen any time soon in WI, you can ease your fears that it might happen next year. The WIAA as it sits right now, and the majority of A.D.'s have no interest in doing anything to promote or improve wrestling, and probably less than 1/2 of the coaches in the state (those who have first hand experience with JHI) would at this time support it.
I believe MN teams, as a whole, have an advantage vs. WI teams in part due to JHI. That said, there are teams in WI that can beat MN teams and vice versa. From a coaching standpoint, there is a huge difference. I'm currently working daily with my 7th graders, across the river the head coach may not even know the 7th graders or what they are doing in practice. Middle School parents are attending our events, helping with our fundraising, etc. Is that type of cooperation happening between the HS and MS in wisconsin? Based on programs that I'm familiar with, it isn't. There is a gap between youth and high school, kind of a no-man's land. Really good kids often don't even wrestle with their middle schools, but stick with club. What is the message that sends to the kids in middle school? In mn, the really good kids and the average, and the beginers are all working together with the same coaching staff.
Recently my MS guys went to a MS tournament in Wi. I only had 9 kids competing, 6 were beginers this year. We went 20-6 in our matches. The difference, I believe, isn't that i'm a superior coach, or these are better athletes (all but one has losing records in MN) but that they have been practicing with the varsity each day, doing the same things, their conditioning and technique even as 1st year wrestlers was much better than the WI kids. We had similar results last year. It doesn't mean my guys will be come elite wrestlers, it just means they have a big jump on the Wi kids, and this will probably increase their confidence and willingness to stay in the sport. If not, it didn't hurt a thing to have them with us.
I don't have a good team (yet) but I know the advantage that I have over a coach in WI who is also trying to build a program that is in a similar hurt as mine is that JHI gives me and my coaches direct contact with the MS guys each day.
IMO, this is the key. I know some programs practiced this way at one time and were dominant in Wisconsin. Two that come to mind were Shell Lake and Athens.
Is MN High School wrestling better than WI High School wrestling? And if it is, could it be because kids get 2 years extra varsity level experience? With hockey being a huge sport in MN they still have very good wrestling in MN.
"Is MN High School wrestling better than WI High School wrestling?"
Yes, I think most would agree that MN wrestling is better. I don't think JH inclusion is the only reason however. I do think it is part of the reason.
The other thing I will mention and it was addressed in an earlier post in this thread, you DO NOT want to lose your JH or MS programs for JH inclusion. There has to be a place for all levels of kids to develop in the proper environment.
I think some of you are misunderstanding JHI it is not a replacement for middle school wrestling.Not every 7/8 grade kid is ready to be at the high school level.JMO i think it would be a great option for some of the upper caliber level middle school wrestlers in WI.
I understand what people are saying about NOT replacing the JR high. I get that but I do have some concerns in that area. I am not bashing JHI but just asking questions.
I do fee if Wisconsin ever came to JHI it would be down the road but I ask what would happen with the middle schools. They are already low in some areas and if a couple of them are good enough to step up what happens to the rest of the wrestlers that are not as good? Does the school look at numbers and say the heck with middle school if you have less than 10 kids out?
I have to ask these questions when talking about JHI.
I also like to think that MN is better because of the shear size of the main area of wrestling in the Metro area and all of the outside coaching, top end clubs and so on that are availible in such a short area that is appealing to many many up and coming wrestlers.
"I also like to think that MN is better because of the shear size of the main area of wrestling in the Metro area and all of the outside coaching, top end clubs and so on that are availible in such a short area that is appealing to many many up and coming wrestlers."
While it is true about the population, the outstate part of MN produces many, many quality wrestlers so that is not it. I mentioned before, when we had the MN/WI border battle many of the wrestlers from MN were outstaters and they won mmost of the tim.
I think it is many things (JHI among the reasons) but mostly a mindset and commitment to year 'round wrestling.
boo, LG, if there are MS programs with only 10 kids, why not just blend them in with the HS? In my school there is no MS program. Ditto almost all of the A and AA schools (Div 2 and 3 to you) and quite a few AAA (big) schools. No MS program is needed, the guys who would be coaching MS are with the JV/V as are the kids. This simply streamlines everything. Everyone rides the same bus to the same dual that creates a bond. Anyone not on Var wrestles JV. All coaches are careful matching them up so beginners don't get completely discouraged by a loss, I have the older JV kids help out a beginner after a match. That creates a bond.
Parents can all come to one location and watch everyone on the team wrestle, not just 9-12 or 6-7. I think this is important. The older parents see and comment on the younger kids to their parents and vice versa. That helps create a bond.
If anything, from a coaching standpoint, that's what I see with JHI. We have more kids, parents, and coaches all having the opportunity to be together and get to know each other for a longer period of time without some sort of artificial barrier (MS Program) blocking all of that unity.
Are MN teams and wrestlers better? Debatable, I think the elite kids are pretty darn even. I think some programs are pretty darn even. But I would say if you take the top 10 teams from each division and wrestled them, MN would come out on top in the number of wins in each division. I also belive you could extend that down to the next 30 teams in each division and there would be similar results. Some of those wins would be MN 7th and 8th graders beating WI 9-12th graders, while the best WI 7th-8th graders, who could make a difference, only got to sit and watch.
If I was a coach in Wi right now and it was logistically possible in my school district, I would have as many if not all, the MS kids practicing with us at least 3x per week. If you aren't, and especially if you are a struggling program, you are missing the boat on a great opportunity for you and your kids.
your booing me Handles?
Just stating if you take X amount of kids and put them into the high school what do you do with the other kids maybe 10 of them.
Not sure as to where your from but I know in my area you get 15 kids in a wrestling room and that is about it for the room. Some of the wrestling rooms are very, very small to say the least.
Just talking space as to where we could put the wrestlers.
In our school if you combine the middle and high school we would have close to 50 of them and I know there wouldnt be much room at all for all of them.
That's funny LG, pretty sure that he was addressing boowrestle and you.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 27, 2014, 05:13:23 PM
your booing me Handles?
Just stating if you take X amount of kids and put them into the high school what do you do with the other kids maybe 10 of them.
Not sure as to where your from but I know in my area you get 15 kids in a wrestling room and that is about it for the room. Some of the wrestling rooms are very, very small to say the least.
Just talking space as to where we could put the wrestlers.
In our school if you combine the middle and high school we would have close to 50 of them and I know there wouldnt be much room at all for all of them.
I'm sure the basketball team will trade places, in order to accommodate your needs. ;)
That's a good problem to have LG. Coaches in MN have the same issues. Be creative. Or use your size limitations issue to try to get a new wrestling room built. I often have to laugh when the number of kids out for the program is used as a reason to not have JHI. What if the 9-12 program got hot and there were an equal number of HS kids? Would the coach say "no, we can't practice because there are too many of you?
Handles, I have no idea were you are from. I have stated I am not against JHI but I am pointing out issues that need to be address and talked about with schools, WIAA officials and in this day and age building a new wrestling room on the school budgets, in Wisconsin? I think you would know that answer.
What does Minnesota do with the kids that are k-6th grade? Does the school have a program for those kids also? What do they do in that program.
Here's the deal LG. In MN each school can decide for themselves what they want to do with JHI. How's that for being able to solve problems? Some just bring up a few 8th graders, some ditch their middle school program, some don't have room so they do split practices or create groups.And remember, it isn't just wrestling that works out it's own methods for JHI, it's all sports so let's not simply focus on wrestling.
The point is that it's ok to do, and that gives each program options that fit them the best.
As for youth programs most go k-6, though 7-8 can join them after the regular season to compete in youth regionals and state. If a 7th or 8th does compete in a youth tournament during the regular season, those matches count towards their 36 match limit for JV/Var.
How many states have JHI?
Minnesota, Kentucky , South Dakota , I'm guessing there is more but those are the three I know of for sure.
add North Dakota and New York. Other states are looking into it, or at least coaches/fans are.
Nationwide we are seeing club teams taking over and school programs failing especially at the youth/ms levels because parents feel the workouts, workout partners, and competition is better for little johnny or susie. JHI allows those young elites to compete against kids older and possibly better. It also allows them to stay with their school and peer group. win/win.
Sounds like American amateur athletics is moving gradually closer to the European model. I wonder how long it will take for us to end up there.
I agree Fish, I have said the same thing for years. In fact, at lunch today three of us were discussing this very subject.
We are adding back middle school sports in my junior high (out of retirement to coaching again!). They are bringing back wrestling, track, soccer, and tennis. The others like BB and VB tended to have the kids opt for the club teams instead.
I grew up in MN in the 80's and the most competitive spot on the team was always 98 varsity. We would have 7-8 kids in our town of 1500 compete for that spot. I earned that spot in 8th grade and although I was only 20-12 on the year, it gave me some groundwork to get better and we were stronger as a team from 7th-12th all working together.
I see now many schools in MN have k-6 team tourneys and learn teamwork a young age. I don't see that often in Wisconsin.
I really see that MN has improved greatly. I believe it has alot to do with the two different youth state progams they run too also and that they start in November in the youth ages.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 28, 2014, 05:08:38 PM
I agree Fish, I have said the same thing for years. In fact, at lunch today three of us were discussing this very subject.
We are adding back middle school sports in my junior high (out of retirement to coaching again!). They are bringing back wrestling, track, soccer, and tennis. The others like BB and VB tended to have the kids opt for the club teams instead.
Congrats on getting "back in the saddle again!" 8) I remember you mentioning that at the Wisconsin vs Minnesota meet.
Yes, It will be fun coaching MS again. The thing I like about it most is that they grow the most and learn the most during MS. I'll be coaching girl's soccer and possibly boy's tennis too.
Yes, that's one thing that I also appreciated about that level. Sounds like your dance card is going to be pretty full for awhile. Have fun!
Quote from: Handles II on January 27, 2014, 08:48:51 AM
boo, LG, if there are MS programs with only 10 kids, why not just blend them in with the HS? In my school there is no MS program. Ditto almost all of the A and AA schools (Div 2 and 3 to you) and quite a few AAA (big) schools. No MS program is needed, the guys who would be coaching MS are with the JV/V as are the kids. This simply streamlines everything. Everyone rides the same bus to the same dual that creates a bond. Anyone not on Var wrestles JV. All coaches are careful matching them up so beginners don't get completely discouraged by a loss, I have the older JV kids help out a beginner after a match. That creates a bond.
Parents can all come to one location and watch everyone on the team wrestle, not just 9-12 or 6-7. I think this is important. The older parents see and comment on the younger kids to their parents and vice versa. That helps create a bond.
If anything, from a coaching standpoint, that's what I see with JHI. We have more kids, parents, and coaches all having the opportunity to be together and get to know each other for a longer period of time without some sort of artificial barrier (MS Program) blocking all of that unity.
Are MN teams and wrestlers better? Debatable, I think the elite kids are pretty darn even. I think some programs are pretty darn even. But I would say if you take the top 10 teams from each division and wrestled them, MN would come out on top in the number of wins in each division. I also belive you could extend that down to the next 30 teams in each division and there would be similar results. Some of those wins would be MN 7th and 8th graders beating WI 9-12th graders, while the best WI 7th-8th graders, who could make a difference, only got to sit and watch.
If I was a coach in Wi right now and it was logistically possible in my school district, I would have as many if not all, the MS kids practicing with us at least 3x per week. If you aren't, and especially if you are a struggling program, you are missing the boat on a great opportunity for you and your kids.
Took me a bit to get caught up on this, but where do the parents of the 8th graders go to watch their kids wrestle? Why are you leaving them out, or do the kids go from 7th grade to 9th grade? Is this more JHI?
You can do this a couple of ways but generally you have either 6-7-8 or 7-8 in your middle school program. The kids that belong in the high school room would go to the high school.
Some schools would practice with everyone 7-12 at the high school.
Here we also have the 9th Grade and Under League where 7-9 can compete.
Yes, either they will wrestle with their middle school, or with their high school, that depends on the district and how they use JHI. MNBadger obviously has more experience with AAA (big) schools, where some kids move up to the high school to wrestle V/JV and others in their grade stay in the middle school. I have more experience with AA and A, where virtually all 7th and 8th practice with the high schools and wrestle JV/V there is no "middle school" wrestling, but middle schoolers get matched up as part of the JV matches. Don't worry, 8th graders and their parents aren't left out.
Maybe this has already been mentioned in this string but...if the WIAA were to allow JHI then (I believe) all junior high schools would have to be WIAA affiliated. I think currently only about 60 junior high schools in Wisconsin are WIAA affiliated. So...imagine the instant revenue the WIAA would suddenly produce if all MS had to pay the fee for JHI. I can't beleive the WIAA has not already jumped on this...
Actually, in MN the MSHSL chooses to have little to do with JH sports.
The only thing is that if a JH wrestler goes to the varsity, all his ms and /or jh matches count toward his total.
So for a ms or jh kid there is no match count limit or anything if they are not participating on varsity.