Why don't WI wrestlers dominate in college?

[dirt]

People tend to fall off topic on this forum quite easily. This post is/was not ever intended to say that no WI wrestlers are successful beyond high school, because there are plenty that have had a great deal of success. My question I guess would be (and I'm sure all states have this issue) But how does a high school phenom not have the same success in College? Is it the culture in WI, is it that Dad is no longer pushing him, are they taught to wrestle a "high school style" not a college style, in WI. I understand that college is a whole different level, but if you finish your high school career with a hand full of losses (if any)  multiple state championships, national championships, and even international success, I would believe the next level should be a new challenge! (If not why keep wrestling) If you followed any of these kids through high school or even as far back as their youth days, they have been wrestling 12 months a year since they were 10 yrs old! I don't think for one minute that any one of the high school studs ever said "I want to go to college and hopefully just make the team! And off the topic... I think Askren is an amazing ambassador for WI wrestling. He is always promoting the sport as well as running a great wrestling academy, and after seeing what he accomplished in high school I would put him in the class of WI high school phenom for sure.  

[hammen]

I don't think you can focus your question to a even a handful of reasons (as you mentioned a few - culture, parents, "high school style"). Each situation is unique. This happens everywhere, and I don't think Wisconsin is much different from any other state, and I don't think wrestling is much different from any other sport with respect to your question of why high school dominance doesn't translate to college dominance. Having All-American and/or All-State high school success puts one in an advantageous position to succeed at the next level, but it takes a combination of very many things to be successful at the college level in any sport. I couldn't even name all the factors, but to list a few: relationship with work ethic, coaches, mental toughness, leadership, peers, discipline, family/support, faith.

[Gutwrench]

I don't think you can focus your question to a even a handful of reasons (as you mentioned a few - culture, parents, "high school style"). Each situation is unique. This happens everywhere, and I don't think Wisconsin is much different from any other state, and I don't think wrestling is much different from any other sport with respect to your question of why high school dominance doesn't translate to college dominance. Having All-American and/or All-State high school success puts one in an advantageous position to succeed at the next level, but it takes a combination of very many things to be successful at the college level in any sport. I couldn't even name all the factors, but to list a few: relationship with work ethic, coaches, mental toughness, leadership, peers, discipline, family/support, faith.

Must be that CLC education that makes hammen so smart.

Seriously though, I completely agree in that honestly you can place one, two, or even five difinitive reasons to answer the original question.  In my very limited personal experience in a D1 wrestling program, I saw a highly ranked 3x state champ from MN quit after 1 month of school, another highly ranked 3x state champ from MN eventually become a starter but never achieved AA status, and on the flip side a 1x state champ from IL be an AA his soph year (and never again BTW).  One would have pegged the two MN guys as probable AA winners, neither of them made it, while the lesser recruited guy got an AA.

If I had to narrow it down to some reason, I would have to say "work ethic", however you want to define it.  Even with that being said, there are still numerous factors that would play into "success" as well.

It's a difficult question to answer for sure.

[CLC FAN]

I like what's been said so far.  My $.02 would be that it's very hard to tell who can deal with the complete and drastic change in experience from winning all the time to getting beat often until the athlete goes through that paradigm shift.  Can you imagine if you have 150+ wins to 10 or less losses in HS, and all of a sudden you step in a college room and all those easy wins are gone?  All those easy TDs are gone.  All the easy escapes are gone.  You've had easy wins for 75% or more of your matches, and that part of your wrestling life (probably a big reason why you enjoyed the sport) just up and vanishes?!?!?  I can't imagine what that does to a person mentally. 

It must be very tough for college coaches to see nothing but dominance by a HS kid and try to extrapolate what will happen to that human being mentally when the dominance is over and the "grind out every point" begins.

[dirt]

Now those are some good responses. My thoughts exactly.A multitude of things, and yes that must be extremely tough for a kid too (for the first time in his life) experience failure. I will add though I sometimes believe they experience way to much success at way to young of an age. I have never believed a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 8th grader should have "National Champion" stamped on their accomplishment list.  I remember a speech Dan Gable gave once and someone asked him "when do you think a kid should start to specialize in one sport" I was shocked at what he said. " If it were possible kids should play multiple sports throughout college" He said kids need to build muscle in many different areas as well as stay mentally fresh and multiple sports will do that for them. I agree 100% I think playing football can make a better wrestler, or wrestling can make a better football player etc. I think the biggest reason for not having the same success in college is way to much of one thing for way to long! 

[Kurth]

Does it make sense to say that a collegiate wrestler needs to love the sport of wrestling even more than winning in order to want to work hard enough to be successful?

[CLC FAN]

Exactly!  And how do you evaluate who loves wrestling and who loves winning when all the kids you might look to recruit were winning the vast majority of the time?

[Wisconsin Son]

These are some very good points and several I agree with 100%. I love the Dan Gable quote about keeping kids mentally fresh, we have all seen burn out happen in a season, I can't imagine the burnout after 12 straight years of wrestling and then going to college.

[harley]

I think they do and have. I think this question could be asked about any and every state.

[npope]

I think they do and have. I think this question could be asked about any and every state.

I would agree. This isn't a "Wisconsin issue" but rather, an issue of human behavior. WI has had any number of wrestlers that have risen through the ranks and represented the state well in terms of success. Granted, there are some states that have a higher "success rate," but they might actually be considered the outlier - the abnormal situation. Maybe what we see in WI is about what "normal" would be defined to be.

[dirt]

I would agree that every state most likely has the same issue, and also every sport as well. I guess if I sat down and thought about it I could think of a ton of kids who won multiple youth state, and youth national titles who never had the same success or did not even wrestle in high school. You are right kids goals and focus change from year to year. I do wonder if the success at "the next level" would have been different for some of these high school phenoms if they did not have so much so young? Because they obviously had the talent and/or work ethic at one point. CLC you are very correct when you say it must be tough on college coaches to try and figure out who to recruit, but there are some who have success year in and year out so they must be able to see something that most coaches can't in a kid.

[harley]

Wisconsin alone has 42 State Champions every year, I wonder what the totall of State Champions is for every state combined
NCAA Division I only crowns 10 Champions a year, that leaves a lot of room for multiple state champs to not dominate, that of course if you are saying that you have to be a National Champ to be dominate, which by the way I do not agree, So I guess we will agree to disagree on the definition of dominating in College

[Kevin Black]

On average, only 20 of the top 100 recruits each year will earn All-American status.  80% of the "best" high school wrestlers NEVER earn All-American status at the collegiate level.  Maybe the wrestling community has unrealistic expectations for top recruits.  There are only 10 national champions and 80 All-Americans each year at the Division I level.  There just aren't enough spots on the podium for everyone.

Wrestling is a "late-specialization sport."  Science suggests that those in late-specialization sports who develop overall motor skills (agility, balance, coordination, speed, etc.) during important windows of opportunity have a higher ceiling for trainability and development later in their sports career.  Youth sports, in general, teach athletes sport-specific movement patterns and skills in place of adaptation to motor coordination, etc.  As a result, individuals experience success at a young age because they're advanced in one particular sport, however, they may get passed as they mature by athletes who have a higher capacity for trainability and development.

Science and statistics say most wrestlers who dominate at a young age will not dominate at older ages.  I don't think it's necessarily good or bad, but just the way it is.

[Big House]

Science and statistics say most wrestlers who dominate at a young age will not dominate at older ages.  I don't think it's necessarily good or bad, but just the way it is.

Yup ... just like kickball.  I think I peaked in 3rd grade.

[badgerjohn]

On average, only 20 of the top 100 recruits each year will earn All-American status.  80% of the "best" high school wrestlers NEVER earn All-American status at the collegiate level.  Maybe the wrestling community has unrealistic expectations for top recruits.  There are only 10 national champions and 80 All-Americans each year at the Division I level.  There just aren't enough spots on the podium for everyone.

Wrestling is a "late-specialization sport."  Science suggests that those in late-specialization sports who develop overall motor skills (agility, balance, coordination, speed, etc.) during important windows of opportunity have a higher ceiling for trainability and development later in their sports career.  Youth sports, in general, teach athletes sport-specific movement patterns and skills in place of adaptation to motor coordination, etc.  As a result, individuals experience success at a young age because they're advanced in one particular sport, however, they may get passed as they mature by athletes who have a higher capacity for trainability and development.

Science and statistics say most wrestlers who dominate at a young age will not dominate at older ages.  I don't think it's necessarily good or bad, but just the way it is.

I knew that