Combined regionals

dforsythe · May 23, 2018, 11:37:00 AM

If you are like me, you need to see things to figure them out. So I have created a document where I combined 2 regionals in every sectionals. I only did division 2. I used this year's regional entries. I also included a map of each sectional and the schools locations so you could see why I chose to combine the regionals I did. I ended up combining the northern 2 and the southern 2 in every case. That seemed to make the most sense to me. Although if we went to a "super regional", maybe the WIAA would be able to balance a little better. I only found 2 weight classes that had 13 wrestlers. All others had 12 or less. I was also surprised to see the number of winning records. At each weight class I listed the number of winning records and total wrestlers. There were a surprising number of weight classes that 75% or more had winning records. Is that because of forfeits or because the kids that are losing are quitting?

Now can we find a bracket that works. I can't find one that allows full wrestle-backs with 5 or less matches. So, do we ask for a waiver for regionals only? Do we skip the wrestle-back? Honestly if you finish 4th, what are your chances of finishing 3rd or better the following week? Could we use a scramble bracket? Is there a fair one out there to give middle seeds a fair chance at making the top 4?

Here is the framework https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ka3a-5T6tegzAB_yg2rY8flWHyWY2Bfq1S2L4Mj6lA/edit?usp=sharing

Let the discussion begin.

Jimmy · May 23, 2018, 12:55:37 PM

If you only let the wrestlers that lost to the finalists into the wrestle backs, will that solve the match count?

Numbers · May 23, 2018, 01:09:32 PM

Quote from: Jimmy on May 23, 2018, 12:55:37 PM
If you only let the wrestlers that lost to the finalists into the wrestle backs, will that solve the match count?

No because if the #1 seed loses via being "caught" or defensive pin, that match winner would probably not make the finals to let the #1 seed back into the tourney.

TomM · May 23, 2018, 01:23:31 PM

Quote from: Numbers on May 23, 2018, 01:09:32 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on May 23, 2018, 12:55:37 PM
If you only let the wrestlers that lost to the finalists into the wrestle backs, will that solve the match count?

No because if the #1 seed loses via being "caught" or defensive pin, that match winner would probably not make the finals to let the #1 seed back into the tourney.

wrastle63 · May 23, 2018, 01:35:22 PM

Do like D1 state. You only get to advance if your opponent wins. So if you lose and your opponent loses the next round your out.

imwi · May 23, 2018, 01:44:18 PM

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
Do like D1 state. You only get to advance if your opponent wins. So if you lose and your opponent loses the next round your out.

And we all (pretty sure it's all of us) hate that one and done!!

DocWrestling · May 23, 2018, 01:47:34 PM

Not every wrestler needs to qualify for the post season. Not every team has to make the postseason.

Today everyone qualifies for regionals and the goal of many marginal wrestlers is to qualify for sectionals

New Plan with super regionals: Figure out what is the max we can have in the bracket we want. Lets say that is 8. Take the top 8 wrestlers/records. The bottom records do not qualify for regionals. Those marginal kids now can set their goal to qualify for regionals.

Some argue that this will have wrestlers dodging matches and forfeiting to pad the record. Who cares? This already happens as they fight for seeds and these are never kids who are going to compete at state.

I still think getting rid of regionals and going to a 2-day sectional is the best bet. It is either two Saturdays(two weekends) or a Friday/Saturday over one weekend. I think every wrestler, coach, and family would rather condense it into one weekend. From a cost standpoint to districts it is the same with two travel days.

wrastle63 · May 23, 2018, 01:49:01 PM

Quote from: imwi on May 23, 2018, 01:44:18 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
Do like D1 state. You only get to advance if your opponent wins. So if you lose and your opponent loses the next round your out.

And we all (pretty sure it's all of us) hate that one and done!!

At least they have the opportunity to wrestle again unlike D2/D3.

dforsythe · May 23, 2018, 01:57:23 PM

I finally found a bracket that works. Use a 16 man bracket with a wrestleback to 5th place. (so if you make the semis and lose, you are in the 3rd place match). The first round would be one and done. In general, the top 4 seeds would almost always get a bye. In fact the top 2 seeds would be guaranteed a bye because at most there are 14 teams in the regional. Most regionals would have 13 teams. Then you could still hold a wrestleback for 4th place and one for 2nd place. Then we get to advance 4 to sectionals and run the same bracket we have now.

dforsythe · May 23, 2018, 02:24:12 PM

Using that bracket, the 1st round matches (going by straight percentage) in the 2 brackets that would have 13 wrestlers. Losers would be done.

28-8 vs 4-18 & 27-14 vs 1-12
24-8 vs 7-17 & 22-12 vs 2-15
9-4 vs 9-20 & 25-14 vs 2-10
17-11 vs 10-16 & 17-14 vs 1-4
17-18 vs 7-11 & 19-17 vs 9-12

DocWrestling · May 23, 2018, 02:32:34 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on May 23, 2018, 01:47:34 PM
Not every wrestler needs to qualify for the post season. Not every team has to make the postseason.

Today everyone qualifies for regionals and the goal of many marginal wrestlers is to qualify for sectionals

New Plan with super regionals: Figure out what is the max we can have in the bracket we want. Lets say that is 8. Take the top 8 wrestlers/records. The bottom records do not qualify for regionals. Those marginal kids now can set their goal to qualify for regionals.

Some argue that this will have wrestlers dodging matches and forfeiting to pad the record. Who cares? This already happens as they fight for seeds and these are never kids who are going to compete at state.

I still think getting rid of regionals and going to a 2-day sectional is the best bet. It is either two Saturdays(two weekends) or a Friday/Saturday over one weekend. I think every wrestler, coach, and family would rather condense it into one weekend. From a cost standpoint to districts it is the same with two travel days.

Honestly, golfers, tennis players, baseball players, etc all get out of school for events and especially the state tournament. I would have weigh-ins be at noon on Friday and wrestle until maybe 6 or 7pm. Then come back and finish tournament on Saturday letting the kids sleep in a little bit. Have Saturday start with weigh-ins at 3pm and make it a Saturday night event with trips to state on the line.

DocWrestling · May 23, 2018, 02:33:40 PM

all these solutions also help with the reffing shortage

GradeTough · May 23, 2018, 02:42:22 PM

Quote from: imwi on May 23, 2018, 01:44:18 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
Do like D1 state. You only get to advance if your opponent wins. So if you lose and your opponent loses the next round your out.

And we all (pretty sure it's all of us) hate that one and done!!

It is the worse! The worse!

wrastle63 · May 24, 2018, 07:57:36 AM

Quote from: DocWrestling on May 23, 2018, 02:33:40 PM
all these solutions also help with the reffing shortage

That is a key point. If we cut the number of regionals in half that allows for hypothetically half the refs. We could always have 4 refs at each regional which would allow for breaks, etc.

Barou · May 24, 2018, 08:31:38 AM

Is there any coach's discussion on eliminating regionals all together and going to 2 day sectionals? Seems like the logistics would be way easier than this super regional deal.