Wrestlers staying state

[MNbadger]

The middle 50% of students admitted to UW-Madison received a composite ACT score between 27 and 32, while 25% scored above 32 and 25% scored below 27.

Half of the applicants are between 27 and 32.
25% below 27 (in red).
Are we assuming these wrestling recruits are scoring lower than that?!?!?!

[factfinder]

Back to my question.............how are they as "different" as you claim?
Average ACT score
UW Madison:27-32. Average: 30
U of Minnesota Twin Cities: 26-31. Average 28

Pretty close.

Isn't the average score in the US a 21 or 22?

[joeski]

Class of 2020 national average was 20.6. In the state of Wisconsin it was 20.1. As we know all the juniors take the test in Wisconsin, whether they want to or not. Mn was 21.3.

[bman]

"If they truly want the kid almost any school outside of the IVY leagues can get kids in." 


The above statement is false.

Every school has minimum academic standards/measures that must be met for admission.  If an athlete falls below those, each athletic department has a set, pre-determined number of academic exceptions they can go to the admissions department and request an exception for that individual. Those requests are not rubber stamped.  Admissions can still decline the request, and the student athlete must first meet or exceed the minimum standards/requirements set forth for academic exceptions.
ie: #1 football recruit in the country has 2.0 grade point, poor grades in STEM classes, and like Dexter Manley, got a 9 on the ACT. They are not getting in because those numbers do not meet the minimum requirement for an academic exception.
Also, the number of exceptions made for the athletic department is not broken down by the sport. Since there is a finite number of academic exceptions the athletic department is granted, the athletic department (Barry Alvarez for instance) can decline the request from the wrestling coach even before it goes to the admissions department. If Barry wants to use all of the athletic department's academic exceptions for football and men's basketball he can. So, a great wrestler who may meet the requirements for the academic/admissions exception may not get one if they want to use most of them for football.
Also, out of state tuition brings in more money for a school. With all things being equal with academics and admissions, is a WI kid more likely to get accepted at an out of state school than the UW?  You have a WI kid on the bubble for admission to UW and an out of state school with similar academic requirements/competition. One school automatically gets more revenue if they accept the out of state kid vs the in state kid.

I am assuming the thread is about legit D1 talent and blue chip recruits (O'Toole etc). There are a lot of reasons our in state talent may go to school elsewhere. And, as stated previously, the student athlete makes the decision on where they want to go. Yes, some may go elsewhere because UW showed little interest, but there are so many factors that come into play. Such as:
- Do I want a real opportunity to be a starter, or do I want to be a career back up based on who is already at or coming in to the 
   program. Or, this particular school is so laden with depth of talent, I would rather take my chances or accept I will never be a 
   starter, but at least I am at a premier program.   

  Costs? In state tuition helps, but what if another school provides enough scholarship money to off-set that? Or, I want to get out
  and see more of the world.

  I want to be closer to home. WI kids going to Pinnacle live closer to UM.

  Do I like the coaches, the culture, the guys on the team, the campus, the town it is in?

  Academically, will I be able to survive here? Will I thrive here in the classroom (and the wrestling room)?
  Do they have the major(s) I am interested, or might be interested in? If I did not wrestle, would this place still be somewhere I
  would want to go to college?

  Do I have friends, club acquaintances I already know and like here?

  What are my long term goals with wrestling or in my professional life after college? Will this place help me reach them?

  Others stated, the Big Ten may not be the best place for some of these high school kids.  If you look at the bios of most of the
  D1 wrestlers at the top level schools, they have the resume, fair or not, that coaches want.  They wrestle and win or place high 
  at Super 32, they place at Fargo etc.  State Championships don't mean very much, unless you did it in some states, or select
  years.
  A college coach takes a high school state championship into account, but they also take it with a grain of salt. Your state may not
  have the depth, or the quality of competition in some weight classes, or school classes, from one year to the next. CA, NJ only
  have one class and PA only has 2.  The Ohio large school division has great talent, and Ohio has a huge depth of talent scattered
  in among the smaller schools. Those states also have a significantly higher population.  Coaches see a state champ
  there beating other high quality kids. They wrestle in the Walsh Ironman etc. Like the Cheesehead, which is great as well.
  Coaches see you beating someone else they were looking at, it helps get attention.  Or, some kids were D1 talent, and had
  tremendous upside, but they didn't catch the eye of coaches because they had not done much yet to expose it to others yet. 
  Stephen Buchanan is a great example. Mark Branch saw it though. But Stephen did not do a lot of wrestling in the off season
  outside of WI going against the best kids across the country, such as wrestling in Fargo. There is no fault in that. He did other
  things.   
  There is a limited amount of scholarships (9.9) per team to divide up. Coaches have limited time and resources to
  chase after every kid they want and/or become aware of great recruits they don't know exist.  With that said, if an athlete is
  interested in possibly attending a particular school to wrestle, they should reach out to the coaching staff.  Coaches don't have
  time to chase kids that may not be interested in attending their school (Mark Hall, Spencer Lee, etc. are notable exceptions).
  however, they may become more aware of you and reciprocate the interest because you have demonstrated interest in them.   

How many WI kids wrestling out of state would be starting at the UW? Be honest.   And, of those wrestlers, how many would have received more scholarship money from the UW, and the UW program would be an upgrade from where they are now? Would they have been accepted by admissions? Then, take into account some of the other factors that come into play for the decision where to attend school that I mentioned above. 

[greysquirrelmobile]

Cost for out of state at UW- Madison 56k. 80% scholarship out of pocket for parents  = $11,200.

Cost for in-state $25k a 50% scholarship is out of pocket $12.5K.
 

[wrestlemania]

"You still need room guys and spot starters to fill out your line up. With only 9.9 scholarships, you still need guys for 10% to help out the program."

Exactly! And if your program is limited by gender balance quotas as to how many athletes they can have in the wrestling room, it's going to be very difficult to find those program "guys" and build any kind of depth for the program.

Old timers will tell you about a UW wrestling program which had its share of talented scholarships athletes like Kemp or the Jordans for example, guys from out of state. But the room was still brimming with walk-ons, guys from Wisconsin who, even if they couldn't make the varsity trained with some of the best wrestlers in the country, got great coaching and got the experience being a part of an elite D-I program especially if they went in coaching themselves.

Today, as I said before, the UW roster right now is smaller than some medium and even small school powerhouse wrestling team roster. It's a good thing this regime is bringing in transfers because they would be even worse shape if they didn't but it's not a long-term solution. The Badgers need to start building depth! Bono needs to convince the UWAD that he needs at least 40 kids in the room maximum (ideally four per weight class) or certainly at 35 at minimum. If not, it's going to be very difficult to build a long-term, successful, sustainable D-I collegiate wrestling program. Wrestlers get hurt or they redshirt for various reasons, including the Olympics. If you can't replace them with quality back-ups, the end result is defeat.

One other thing that could help build brand loyalty to Wisconsin is again, a home-grown national champion wrestling for the Badgers. haven't had that since Andy Rein. That's over 40 years ago! Last to come close was Henning and that was over a decade ago. That's something Bono has to fix too, otherwise he's going to run into the same problems other UW coaches have had. Some of you still have this notion UW's problems in wrestling all stem from one man but it's not I assure you. They are systemic and will take a long time to change. Is Bono the man to make those changes or he just a quick-fix artist? Because either he's invested into making the Badger program a success or he'll leave the first chance he gets complaining as he goes out "I can't recruit the kids I want so I'm out of here." He should have known this before taking the job.

[DocWrestling]

Coaches know they need in-state wrestlers.  It helps balance the scholarships (9.9 Total) and build a roster and make parents happy.

As has been said, UW is $25,000 for in-state and $56,000 for out of state.

Thus they can give an instate wrestler a .5 scholarship and now school is only $12,500.  That might work for a family.

But it takes more scholarship money to lure out of state wrestlers because a .5 only gets the costs down to $28,000 per year.

Athletes that leave the state really want to because they will likely pay more out of pocket for a .5 scholarship out of state than a .25 from UW.

The studs will get their money but the team success comes from the small scholarships.

If you can recruit very smart kids that also helps because you can find them academic scholarships.  Truth is sometimes it is easier to get academic scholarships out of state.  I told my son I am not paying out of state tuition.  He did apply to some out of state schools.  The out of state schools all offered academic scholarships that basically made going to them the same price as going to UW because UW did not offer any academic scholarships.  He still chose UW.

It is a delicate balance but my point is that UW needs to hit the jackpot on some in state kids that are under the big radar but then can become all-americans.

Or you have to be right every time and each time you give a 75% or full scholarship then you need them to be 4 time all americans

[drbrad]

In a hometown-meet/greet with Bono and assistants he difinitively told our wrestlers and parents that at UW grades trump abilty. He said there are in and out of state guys that he wants to recruit but is 100% denied by admin based on their academics. Quite positive Barry Davis ran into the same exact issues. Can they bring in a kid or two and start them off on probation? Yes, that happens almost everywhere but you have to be an unreal talent AND have the attributes to become a solid student first.
Bottom line is what people have been saying for decades. Education comes first, sports second.

If they truly want the kid almost any school outside of the IVY leagues can get kids in. Yes that's something they'll say at a meet and greet but they have slots allowed to get kids in. Now say football doesn't use all of there's which is never other sports get more slots. But I know we want to use the academics as an excuse why we can't keep anyone to stay but maybe have we thought about it maybe being the new regime? Anyone outside the state of Wisconsin calls this regime scummy, cheaters, etc. I don't have an opinion on them I'd like to get them a couple years and see where the guys are at. But every time Bono gets brought up it's never positive and I'm assuming kids are seeing what everyone outside the state are seeing as well.

Seems we're a little bit apples and oranges with "admittance standards". There are the actual base standards for "regular" students. Then there are the exceptions that are made for athletes. Granted, at most B1G schools the exceptions are relatively small and near the margins. A student athlete may qualify on most requirements but fall short in 1 or 2 or be really close. This is when athletic department negotiates with admissions to lobby for a "close call" to be admitted. This is the issue with UW. Admissions at Madison have a long history of budging little if at all. This is for ALL sports, perhaps especially football. So while the actual admission standards may be similar between UW and another school, in most cases other universities are more willing to tweak their admissions to get special athletes in. This is well documented in football and basketball. So while many, many wrestlers have great admissions specs, but there are more than you may think that fall in the "borderline" crack. That's what Bono means by "having his hands tied". Not that they aren't very good students, just that they don't check every box. And that's usually a hard no at UW, even for elite athletes. Not saying this policy is good or bad, it just is.

[MNbadger]

I also posted this in the "AWA" thread......
The success or lack of success is not on any state wrestling club.  Nor is it on any owner/operator of a club.
Wrestling(and any other college sports is based on recruiting, pure and simple).
As far as in state recruiting....I just quickly looked at three websites for 20-21:
PSU: 34 on roster, 14 from Pennsylvania.
U of Minnesota: 32 on roster, 14 from Minnesota.
U of Iowa: 32 on roster, 10 from Iowa.
U of Wisconsin: 24 on roster, 17 from Wisconsin.
The issue might be that there are too many recruited from Wisconsin.  I am not saying this to be a jerk. 
Someone mentioned that UW limits the roster.  Is it limited to 24?  Compared to PSU(34), U of M(32), U of Iowa(32) this is pathetic, in fact in my opinion, impossible to compete with. 
Were I qualified, I would never take this job on if what it looks like is the case.
Is there someone out there with knowledge of this?

[factfinder]

Coaches know they need in-state wrestlers.  It helps balance the scholarships (9.9 Total) and build a roster and make parents happy.

As has been said, UW is $25,000 for in-state and $56,000 for out of state.

Thus they can give an instate wrestler a .5 scholarship and now school is only $12,500.  That might work for a family.

But it takes more scholarship money to lure out of state wrestlers because a .5 only gets the costs down to $28,000 per year.

Athletes that leave the state really want to because they will likely pay more out of pocket for a .5 scholarship out of state than a .25 from UW.

The studs will get their money but the team success comes from the small scholarships.

If you can recruit very smart kids that also helps because you can find them academic scholarships.  Truth is sometimes it is easier to get academic scholarships out of state.  I told my son I am not paying out of state tuition.  He did apply to some out of state schools.  The out of state schools all offered academic scholarships that basically made going to them the same price as going to UW because UW did not offer any academic scholarships.  He still chose UW.

It is a delicate balance but my point is that UW needs to hit the jackpot on some in state kids that are under the big radar but then can become all-americans.

Or you have to be right every time and each time you give a 75% or full scholarship then you need them to be 4 time all americans

This is a very informed post!!
However many may not know but Nebraska, Little Rock, Mizz give instate tuition with a reasonable GPA and academic awards with ACT scores around 25. Wisconsin and MN don't offer that, nor do they commonly offer academic awards with ACT score's below 30. So if you are a 3.4+ GPA with a 24-26 ACT score Mizz, Little Rock and Nebraska are much more affordable and if you add a 25% scholarship (which is a large wrestling scholarship) you are way ahead. Its not an even playing field and the B10 schools are not for everyone.
Wisconsin in state cost around 25K
Mizz in state cost around 13,500
Nebraska in state cost is about 10k

[bigoil]

Coaches know they need in-state wrestlers.  It helps balance the scholarships (9.9 Total) and build a roster and make parents happy.

As has been said, UW is $25,000 for in-state and $56,000 for out of state.

Thus they can give an instate wrestler a .5 scholarship and now school is only $12,500.  That might work for a family.

But it takes more scholarship money to lure out of state wrestlers because a .5 only gets the costs down to $28,000 per year.

Athletes that leave the state really want to because they will likely pay more out of pocket for a .5 scholarship out of state than a .25 from UW.

The studs will get their money but the team success comes from the small scholarships.

If you can recruit very smart kids that also helps because you can find them academic scholarships.  Truth is sometimes it is easier to get academic scholarships out of state.  I told my son I am not paying out of state tuition.  He did apply to some out of state schools.  The out of state schools all offered academic scholarships that basically made going to them the same price as going to UW because UW did not offer any academic scholarships.  He still chose UW.

It is a delicate balance but my point is that UW needs to hit the jackpot on some in state kids that are under the big radar but then can become all-americans.

Or you have to be right every time and each time you give a 75% or full scholarship then you need them to be 4 time all americans

This is a very informed post!!
However many may not know but Nebraska, Little Rock, Mizz give instate tuition with a reasonable GPA and academic awards with ACT scores around 25. Wisconsin and MN don't offer that, nor do they commonly offer academic awards with ACT score's below 30. So if you are a 3.4+ GPA with a 24-26 ACT score Mizz, Little Rock and Nebraska are much more affordable and if you add a 25% scholarship (which is a large wrestling scholarship) you are way ahead. Its not an even playing field and the B10 schools are not for everyone.
Wisconsin in state cost around 25K
Mizz in state cost around 13,500
Nebraska in state cost is about 10k

I had never heard of the out of state waiver.
Missouri in state tuition is actually more expensive than WI. $11,000 vs $13,500. Total expense including room and board is very comparable $26-$27K.

[hammer]

I also posted this in the "AWA" thread......
The success or lack of success is not on any state wrestling club.  Nor is it on any owner/operator of a club.
Wrestling(and any other college sports is based on recruiting, pure and simple).
As far as in state recruiting....I just quickly looked at three websites for 20-21:
PSU: 34 on roster, 14 from Pennsylvania.
U of Minnesota: 32 on roster, 14 from Minnesota.
U of Iowa: 32 on roster, 10 from Iowa.
U of Wisconsin: 24 on roster, 17 from Wisconsin.
The issue might be that there are too many recruited from Wisconsin.  I am not saying this to be a jerk. 
Someone mentioned that UW limits the roster.  Is it limited to 24?  Compared to PSU(34), U of M(32), U of Iowa(32) this is pathetic, in fact in my opinion, impossible to compete with. 
Were I qualified, I would never take this job on if what it looks like is the case.
Is there someone out there with knowledge of this?

Looks like Wisconsin is doing a good job getting kids to stick around. 17 out of 24 is pretty good if you ask me. With only a 24 man roster certainly more money to go around.

[hammer]

Back to my question.............how are they as "different" as you claim?
Average ACT score
UW Madison:27-32. Average: 30
U of Minnesota Twin Cities: 26-31. Average 28

Pretty close.

Isn't the average score in the US a 21 or 22?

I believe you are correct but most every junior now takes the test and that makes me believe the kids that have no interest in college really try. I read that it is more closer to 25 for kids that actually want to take the test or pay for it.