WIAA changes to wrestling, 1/2 lb per day rule is gone

[Coach V]

We will see how it is managed. They have a session for it at our coaches clinic by Justin Tritz. Dad I can lose 1.4 this week and then Dad I can lose 1.2 this week, just seems crazy. Im sure it will work itself out but I still don't agree with it. If it says your .1 over you cant go down, no 'close enough ' numbers. Micromanaging the sport with the healthiest kids.

[DarkKnight]

the kids that lose 2 lbs a day will still do that, just have to make more weight jumps, losing only .3 lbs is never actually done, and I didn't know losing .5 lbs a day was a problem for any Wisconsin wrestler.

Most kids will be okay as they wrestle the same weight all year, but the ones that make cuts just have to make a schedule and once they are down to weight it will be okay. As long as when they are in the process of cutting to a lower weight and they wrestle Thursday and Saturday, and they lose .8 lbs in those 2 days, an opposing coach shouldnt make a deal about it.

It'll be manageable and hopefully getting in line with whatever National Rules will help the state in the long run.

[bulldog]

But why shouldn't an opposing coach make a deal about it? First off...what decimal point are they rounding to?  If they say to the second decimal point and if the kid weighs in at 119 the rule seems to indicate is a kid can lose 1.79 lbs in a week. Not 1.80...because that would be unhealthy. He would need to be disqualified if he weighed in at 1.80. Sucks but it is the rule. If the speed limit is 55 then 56 is breaking the law and you can get a ticket for 56. The law doesn't say "but police shouldn't make a deal about it" because when DO they make a deal about it? 1.81? 1.90? 2.0?

If the WIAA and NFHS want to get this tight then they need to enforce the rule and make sure all athletes, coaches and refs are held to the rule

And this is about the health of the athletes so coaches, officials, athletic directors should be looking at this very closely and checking that no athlete is cutting more then what is healthy. Right?

Isn't that why the rule was put in place? Because some kids were cutting more then they should have been and they were using unhealthy practices in doing so?

The thing is...nobody is going to enforce the rule until someone dies or gets seriously ill. Then suddenly the WIAA will flood the sport with more unenforceable rules but they will feel they are doing a good job.

[Ghetto]

We are trying to get in line so we can have voting rights again with the national federation. There are calculators online to figure it out. It isn't that complicated. i m sure there will be more information before we start using the new method.

Do you really believe this was in their thought process at all when passing it? Highly doubtful in my opinion. Just another headache.

As far as anyone monitoring the weight thing I don't think it ever matters until February. I once witnessed a coach showing a ref a weigh in sheet before the tournament started showing a kid had cut more than he was supposed to and he was told to take it up with the WIAA.

It's 100% the reason.

Ghetto...you make a few statements that make me hope for a clearer picture. 1) you state that "If we want voting power with NFHS again, we have to get on board." - what does this get Wisconsin? I mean it is nice to have your "voice heard" in the national organization but it seems coaches can't get their voices heard by the WIAA so what impact does "voting power" with the NFHS do for us. WIAA seems to lean towards NFHS rules most of the time and Wisconsin's one vote isn't going to sway things for wrestling in Wisconsin.

2) you  respond to Padre "it's 100% the reason"...I don't understand. Currently nobody is policing weights. If a kid weighs in on Thursday at 113 and goes to a tournament on Saturday and weighs in at 106 nobody checks his weight sheets to assure he could "legally" cut the weight. The official believe the coaches are policing themselves. They probably are but I know of one instance that a JV wrestler skinfolded for 120 and showed up to a tournament and wrestled 113. Nobody questioned it...until his parents asked their own coach. The coach asked the tournament official and he said it was probably wrong on trackwrestling. The kid wrestled the entire day at the weight class and nobody challenged it. So what is "100% the reason" for this rule?

3) Finally (and maybe you don't know either) I still don't understand the timeline allowed to lose weight. If a wrestler were to weigh in on Thursday and he can lose 3 lbs in a week can he lose that full 3 lbs by a Saturday tournament

Just asking for clarification or a clear picture on this topic...not looking to start an argument on this...Thanks

Sorry I haven't responded. I'll respond tonight.

[DarkKnight]

But why shouldn't an opposing coach make a deal about it? First off...what decimal point are they rounding to?  If they say to the second decimal point and if the kid weighs in at 119 the rule seems to indicate is a kid can lose 1.79 lbs in a week. Not 1.80...because that would be unhealthy. He would need to be disqualified if he weighed in at 1.80. Sucks but it is the rule. If the speed limit is 55 then 56 is breaking the law and you can get a ticket for 56. The law doesn't say "but police shouldn't make a deal about it" because when DO they make a deal about it? 1.81? 1.90? 2.0?

If the WIAA and NFHS want to get this tight then they need to enforce the rule and make sure all athletes, coaches and refs are held to the rule

And this is about the health of the athletes so coaches, officials, athletic directors should be looking at this very closely and checking that no athlete is cutting more then what is healthy. Right?

Isn't that why the rule was put in place? Because some kids were cutting more then they should have been and they were using unhealthy practices in doing so?

The thing is...nobody is going to enforce the rule until someone dies or gets seriously ill. Then suddenly the WIAA will flood the sport with more unenforceable rules but they will feel they are doing a good job.

Bulldog, if they are only en route to the lower weight, and not wrestling that lower weight yet, the opposing coach shouldn't make a deal bout it, as long that wrestler is still using the proper step-down weights that were figured before starting to make the drop.

If they do make a deal about it, drink .1 lb of water and case solved.

A Kid wrestling 113 until a Christmas tourney will have to meet with his coach to figure what he has to weigh at each wrestling meet starting about 3 weeks prior, as it gets a little dicey. Just something more for a Coach to worry about, figuring up every kid differently that's dropping because every kid is gonna have a different weight drop schedule.

It will be doable and a little fun if you like math, but hey not everyone likes math......

[Ty Clark]

But why shouldn't an opposing coach make a deal about it? First off...what decimal point are they rounding to?  If they say to the second decimal point and if the kid weighs in at 119 the rule seems to indicate is a kid can lose 1.79 lbs in a week. Not 1.80...because that would be unhealthy. He would need to be disqualified if he weighed in at 1.80. Sucks but it is the rule. If the speed limit is 55 then 56 is breaking the law and you can get a ticket for 56. The law doesn't say "but police shouldn't make a deal about it" because when DO they make a deal about it? 1.81? 1.90? 2.0?

If the WIAA and NFHS want to get this tight then they need to enforce the rule and make sure all athletes, coaches and refs are held to the rule

And this is about the health of the athletes so coaches, officials, athletic directors should be looking at this very closely and checking that no athlete is cutting more then what is healthy. Right?

Isn't that why the rule was put in place? Because some kids were cutting more then they should have been and they were using unhealthy practices in doing so?

The thing is...nobody is going to enforce the rule until someone dies or gets seriously ill. Then suddenly the WIAA will flood the sport with more unenforceable rules but they will feel they are doing a good job.

Bulldog, if they are only en route to the lower weight, and not wrestling that lower weight yet, the opposing coach shouldn't make a deal bout it, as long that wrestler is still using the proper step-down weights that were figured before starting to make the drop.

If they do make a deal about it, drink .1 lb of water and case solved.

A Kid wrestling 113 until a Christmas tourney will have to meet with his coach to figure what he has to weigh at each wrestling meet starting about 3 weeks prior, as it gets a little dicey. Just something more for a Coach to worry about, figuring up every kid differently that's dropping because every kid is gonna have a different weight drop schedule.

It will be doable and a little fun if you like math, but hey not everyone likes math......

Now you guys are making up theoretical issues that aren't even plausible.

There is absolutely no rule against cutting more than the 1.5%/wk, just like there was never a rule against cutting more than .5 lbs/day. The rule is about weight class eligibility, not participation eligibility.

It is 100% legal for a kid to weigh 121 at Thursday's dual and weigh 113 at Saturday's tournament. However, the kid will only be eligible to wrestle at 120 on Saturday (too light to qualify for 126 and not eligible for 113 for about 4 weeks).

[bulldog]

But why shouldn't an opposing coach make a deal about it? First off...what decimal point are they rounding to?  If they say to the second decimal point and if the kid weighs in at 119 the rule seems to indicate is a kid can lose 1.79 lbs in a week. Not 1.80...because that would be unhealthy. He would need to be disqualified if he weighed in at 1.80. Sucks but it is the rule. If the speed limit is 55 then 56 is breaking the law and you can get a ticket for 56. The law doesn't say "but police shouldn't make a deal about it" because when DO they make a deal about it? 1.81? 1.90? 2.0?

If the WIAA and NFHS want to get this tight then they need to enforce the rule and make sure all athletes, coaches and refs are held to the rule

And this is about the health of the athletes so coaches, officials, athletic directors should be looking at this very closely and checking that no athlete is cutting more then what is healthy. Right?

Isn't that why the rule was put in place? Because some kids were cutting more then they should have been and they were using unhealthy practices in doing so?

The thing is...nobody is going to enforce the rule until someone dies or gets seriously ill. Then suddenly the WIAA will flood the sport with more unenforceable rules but they will feel they are doing a good job.

Bulldog, if they are only en route to the lower weight, and not wrestling that lower weight yet, the opposing coach shouldn't make a deal bout it, as long that wrestler is still using the proper step-down weights that were figured before starting to make the drop.

If they do make a deal about it, drink .1 lb of water and case solved.

A Kid wrestling 113 until a Christmas tourney will have to meet with his coach to figure what he has to weigh at each wrestling meet starting about 3 weeks prior, as it gets a little dicey. Just something more for a Coach to worry about, figuring up every kid differently that's dropping because every kid is gonna have a different weight drop schedule.

It will be doable and a little fun if you like math, but hey not everyone likes math......

Now you guys are making up theoretical issues that aren't even plausible.

There is absolutely no rule against cutting more than the 1.5%/wk, just like there was never a rule against cutting more than .5 lbs/day. The rule is about weight class eligibility, not participation eligibility.

It is 100% legal for a kid to weigh 121 at Thursday's dual and weigh 113 at Saturday's tournament. However, the kid will only be eligible to wrestle at 120 on Saturday (too light to qualify for 126 and not eligible for 113 for about 4 weeks).

Ty, you are saying a kid could cut any weight they want but just not be eligible for a lower weight? So it really isn't about the health of the athlete? Then why have the rule? If nobody is going to police and/or enforce the rule it is a pointless rule and lip service to the idea of health of the athlete.

[Ty Clark]

But why shouldn't an opposing coach make a deal about it? First off...what decimal point are they rounding to?  If they say to the second decimal point and if the kid weighs in at 119 the rule seems to indicate is a kid can lose 1.79 lbs in a week. Not 1.80...because that would be unhealthy. He would need to be disqualified if he weighed in at 1.80. Sucks but it is the rule. If the speed limit is 55 then 56 is breaking the law and you can get a ticket for 56. The law doesn't say "but police shouldn't make a deal about it" because when DO they make a deal about it? 1.81? 1.90? 2.0?

If the WIAA and NFHS want to get this tight then they need to enforce the rule and make sure all athletes, coaches and refs are held to the rule

And this is about the health of the athletes so coaches, officials, athletic directors should be looking at this very closely and checking that no athlete is cutting more then what is healthy. Right?

Isn't that why the rule was put in place? Because some kids were cutting more then they should have been and they were using unhealthy practices in doing so?

The thing is...nobody is going to enforce the rule until someone dies or gets seriously ill. Then suddenly the WIAA will flood the sport with more unenforceable rules but they will feel they are doing a good job.

Bulldog, if they are only en route to the lower weight, and not wrestling that lower weight yet, the opposing coach shouldn't make a deal bout it, as long that wrestler is still using the proper step-down weights that were figured before starting to make the drop.

If they do make a deal about it, drink .1 lb of water and case solved.

A Kid wrestling 113 until a Christmas tourney will have to meet with his coach to figure what he has to weigh at each wrestling meet starting about 3 weeks prior, as it gets a little dicey. Just something more for a Coach to worry about, figuring up every kid differently that's dropping because every kid is gonna have a different weight drop schedule.

It will be doable and a little fun if you like math, but hey not everyone likes math......

Now you guys are making up theoretical issues that aren't even plausible.

There is absolutely no rule against cutting more than the 1.5%/wk, just like there was never a rule against cutting more than .5 lbs/day. The rule is about weight class eligibility, not participation eligibility.

It is 100% legal for a kid to weigh 121 at Thursday's dual and weigh 113 at Saturday's tournament. However, the kid will only be eligible to wrestle at 120 on Saturday (too light to qualify for 126 and not eligible for 113 for about 4 weeks).

Ty, you are saying a kid could cut any weight they want but just not be eligible for a lower weight? So it really isn't about the health of the athlete? Then why have the rule? If nobody is going to police and/or enforce the rule it is a pointless rule and lip service to the idea of health of the athlete.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I wrestled my whole senior year about 2-4 pounds below my 5% minimum, and I even made the weight class below, though I was not eligible to wrestle there.

What you are saying is there needs to be an unrealistic rule or no rule at all. The current and new rules disincentivize a nefarious action while not penalizing an innocent one. A rule on par with what you are saying would be calling a kid for stalling if he is on his back but not really trying to get off it... While technically true, it's just not realistic in application, nor is it in the spirit of the rule.

The new rules (which are only new to us, not 250,000 other wrestlers/coaches) will undoubtedly be enforced, just as the past rules were. I've seen coaches/kids get called out at tournaments before for violating the 1/2 lb/day rule, and I'm sure there will be even more scrutinizing in the first couple of years of the new rule before people calm down and realize that it was a great move. Gone will be the days of kids wrestling 120 until mid-January before cutting to 106 for Regionals; and, hopefully, this parlays into getting rid of the cutting allowance, altogether. Want to make wrestling simpler for fans/parents/wrestlers to understand? Make it so the 120-pound weight class is 120 lbs. Not 120 on Thursday, 123 on Saturday, 122 next Tuesday, 127 on the third day of state if it lands in March...

[MNbadger]

" Make it so the 120-pound weight class is 120 lbs. Not 120 on Thursday, 123 on Saturday, 122 next Tuesday, 127 on the third day of state if it lands in March..."

Hmmmmm.. that is how it used to be in the "bad old days".  We went away from that ostensibly because it was deemd bad for the athletes (if we "certified" at 138 we had to make 138 all year or we were automatically certified up to the next weight).
We are our own worst enemy.  We contradict ourselves and chase our tails and it comes fom within.
All of this for a "problem" that never existed.  Wrestlers want to win.  Coaches want to win.  Parents want their kid to win.  Fans want wrestlers to win.  If wrestlers cut too much weight or do it the wrong way, they don't win. 
For those who think the rules we have tried for at least 40 years work, why are we still having the same arguments?

[bulldog]

Ty, so you ARE saying it isn't about the health of the athlete?

Stalling while the kid is on his back may technically be correct but it does not call into the health of the athlete. Why was the skinfold and 1/2 lb per day rule put into effect? I believe it was because some wrestlers died.

Because you wrestled 2-4 lbs below what you were allowed doesn't make it right. And that your coach didn't consider your health at the time shows how serious some coaches take this rule. If someone does heroin every day and doesn't die it doesn't make using heroin right...does it? (That may be an extreme example...I just had nothing better to make my point). What I disagree with is turning a blind eye and ignore the rule. The rule says 1.5% per week. They (the WIAA and NFHS) have to draw the line somewhere and they picked 1.5%. They don't say this is a suggestion. They also feel this is for the health of the athlete. In this cast the athlete is a minor who our society does not feel has enough life experiences to make informed decision on many things. So rules are created to "protect" the health of these minors.

The WIAA and NFHS supposedly have resources like doctors and health professionals that have been consulted to come up with this decision. So they pass a rule for the health of the athlete and you (as part of the Wisconsin wrestling community) say "I know there is a rule but it is tough to police so it really doesn't mean what it says and in my opinion it is unrealistic...so just ignore it because nobody wants to enforce it and I didn't do this when I was wrestling so it must be wrong"

I agree the rule is a pain to follow to the letter of the rule and it would be tough to police (actually it wouldn't be tough...just a little more work by coaches and refs). I also believe that the WIAA institutes rules without thinking through the details.

I raise the point because what happens when a coach brings his team to a tournament and decides it is time to enforce the rule and asks for the ref to check all the weight sheets? Suddenly half your team is disqualified because the wrestlers are .2 below what they were supposed to weigh. But you thought it was an "unrealistic" rule.

Or the same scenario happens and the ref ignores the rule and allows the kids to wrestle. A kid gets hurt. Parents sue because that kid should have never been on the mat the the coach, tournament, and official ignored the rule. That would be the end. The WIAA needs to clearly set their perameters and coaches, refs, and AD need to support and enforce the rule.

Just because nothing bad has happened is no reason to take a caviler attitude towards the rule. Before the 5% and 1/2 lb per day rule many of us would layer on the sweats and the rubber suits and cut 7 lbs for a tournament on Saturday. We would eat a ton of crap all day at the tournament and show up for practice on Monday 10-15 lbs over and then put on the sweats and rubber suits again. We all did it and I would guess many would have said "I wrestled my entire career doing this" and "I am fine" and then someone dies.

The reason we are still having the same argument is partially because nobody is willing to enforce the rule. 120 is 120...if you need 2 lb growth allowance at January 1st you probably shouldn't be wrestling 120. Your body doesn't wait for the new year to begin to decide to grow.

I don't have a good solution but I see the attitude of ignoring the rule as wrong. If someone ends up hurt and it can be traced back to ignoring the rule then what will your attitude be? Will it be "I wrestled my whole senior year about 2-4 pounds below my 5% minimum, and I even made the weight class below"?

[Coach V]

Talk about theoretical issues that aren't even plausible. No need to discuss this, the way it is going, I'm out.

[DocWrestling]

If I was a coach or official, I would be adamant about following the rule otherwise you open yourself up to huge liability.  This is true even in practice which is why I would never want to know what the kids weigh and would never record it.  I would just tell the kids what they can do.

Just puts coaches in a tough spot with getting young kids to follow.

[bulldog]

Talk about theoretical issues that aren't even plausible. No need to discuss this, the way it is going, I'm out.

of course it is theoretical...the rule has not gone into effect yet. So of course it is theoretical.

So...ignore it until it happens and then feign ignorance. And then say that the WIAA is the problem. How is the scenario not even plausible? In the sue happy world we currently live in I think the second scenario is very plausible.

But it is better to stick your head in the sand and hope it will never happen then it doesn't and you were right. Good for you. Nobody died but we have a generation of kids with eating disorders. But as long as nobody died let's ignore it.

Or it does and then act like you don't understand what happened.

The rule was created for a reason. It wasn't because the NFHS and WIAA were sitting around coming up with stuff to make life difficult. It was because a "theoretical issue that wasn't even plausible" happened. Someone died. Because everyone said it was fine to "cut weight but don't tell me about it because I don't want to know how you are doing it" because kids are shoving laxatives down their throat and because they are wearing rubber suits and sitting in saunas.

Ask Jake Calhoun if he wished someone would have paid closer attention to how he was cutting weight and enforced rules on him. Ask Jeff Reese's parents if today's rules were in effect and followed if it would have made a difference. Joe LaRosa wrestled for UW-LaCrosse...his death happened in our backyard. But that is theoretical and these cases are the worse case. We only want to look at what has happened. Not what may happen. And the worse case will never happen to our kid.

The reason the NFHS and WIAA come up with these rules is because the sport refuses to police itself...because the issue is theoretical.

[bigoil]

Ty, so you ARE saying it isn't about the health of the athlete?

Stalling while the kid is on his back may technically be correct but it does not call into the health of the athlete. Why was the skinfold and 1/2 lb per day rule put into effect? I believe it was because some wrestlers died.

Because you wrestled 2-4 lbs below what you were allowed doesn't make it right. And that your coach didn't consider your health at the time shows how serious some coaches take this rule. If someone does heroin every day and doesn't die it doesn't make using heroin right...does it? (That may be an extreme example...I just had nothing better to make my point). What I disagree with is turning a blind eye and ignore the rule. The rule says 1.5% per week. They (the WIAA and NFHS) have to draw the line somewhere and they picked 1.5%. They don't say this is a suggestion. They also feel this is for the health of the athlete. In this cast the athlete is a minor who our society does not feel has enough life experiences to make informed decision on many things. So rules are created to "protect" the health of these minors.

The WIAA and NFHS supposedly have resources like doctors and health professionals that have been consulted to come up with this decision. So they pass a rule for the health of the athlete and you (as part of the Wisconsin wrestling community) say "I know there is a rule but it is tough to police so it really doesn't mean what it says and in my opinion it is unrealistic...so just ignore it because nobody wants to enforce it and I didn't do this when I was wrestling so it must be wrong"

I agree the rule is a pain to follow to the letter of the rule and it would be tough to police (actually it wouldn't be tough...just a little more work by coaches and refs). I also believe that the WIAA institutes rules without thinking through the details.

I raise the point because what happens when a coach brings his team to a tournament and decides it is time to enforce the rule and asks for the ref to check all the weight sheets? Suddenly half your team is disqualified because the wrestlers are .2 below what they were supposed to weigh. But you thought it was an "unrealistic" rule.

Or the same scenario happens and the ref ignores the rule and allows the kids to wrestle. A kid gets hurt. Parents sue because that kid should have never been on the mat the the coach, tournament, and official ignored the rule. That would be the end. The WIAA needs to clearly set their perameters and coaches, refs, and AD need to support and enforce the rule.

Just because nothing bad has happened is no reason to take a caviler attitude towards the rule. Before the 5% and 1/2 lb per day rule many of us would layer on the sweats and the rubber suits and cut 7 lbs for a tournament on Saturday. We would eat a ton of crap all day at the tournament and show up for practice on Monday 10-15 lbs over and then put on the sweats and rubber suits again. We all did it and I would guess many would have said "I wrestled my entire career doing this" and "I am fine" and then someone dies.

The reason we are still having the same argument is partially because nobody is willing to enforce the rule. 120 is 120...if you need 2 lb growth allowance at January 1st you probably shouldn't be wrestling 120. Your body doesn't wait for the new year to begin to decide to grow.

I don't have a good solution but I see the attitude of ignoring the rule as wrong. If someone ends up hurt and it can be traced back to ignoring the rule then what will your attitude be? Will it be "I wrestled my whole senior year about 2-4 pounds below my 5% minimum, and I even made the weight class below"?

I'm trying to follow your logic but you believe that if a HWY weighs in at 270 # on Thursday and he weighs in at 265 on Saturday, you feel he shouldn't wrestle because it is in his best interest to make sure he's within the 1.25%?

Ty pointed out the implementation and spirit of the rule and how that actually supports your thoughts. It prevents the unwanted behaviors of drastic cutting of weight classes at the end of the season but you seem to have an issue with how he stated it.

The rule does not prevent drastic weight cutting each week that you pointed out happened when you wrestled and for sure when I did. There are no rules against a kid weighing 130# after the weekend and wrestling 119 on Thursday assuming that is the next competition. While I believe there is less of that happening with the 7% rule, it hasn't disappeared.

As for  your comment

[Ghetto]

The 1.5% rule has been in effect for other states for a long time. It is a federation guideline. There are calculators and charts out there that make this easy enough to follow. It isn't quite as simple as .5 per day, but the 8 day week made that .5 per day pretty complicated as well. A simple spreadsheet with all your teams weights on it would give you a roadmap for the coming weeks. If a team has half the kids DQ'd at a tournament, the coach isn't doing his job.

I can't remember what state does it, but they enter all their weigh in information on track wrestling, and it takes care of all the calculations for them. I'm guessing that track wrestling would do the same thing for the coaches of this state.

The rule change was put to WIAA vote because we are trying to get back in line as a coaches association so we can have a seat at the table once again. I think it is also important to the WIAA that we are in line with the federation. I've had some extensive conversations with some folks in the association, and we beat these scenarios back and forth. I believe, in the end, that the coaches association, along with the WIAA, will have some documentation and help for coaches.

Coaches and referees ignore the rule at their own peril. The truth of it is that the majority of kids don't cut weight, and as an opposing coach, you watch the kids who you think will drop and effect your kids around the state tournament. Most coaches, in my opinion, don't want kids cutting all year long, so they wrestle a more comfortable weight until the end of the season. The big holiday tournaments would be the exception to that.