Lack of Stalling calls

[imnofish]

Thanks I appreciate the explanation that goes a long way for mere mortals to understand your reasoning and process in making those calls.......

I do appreciate the job and hope things pick up and the more young guys like my son get involved and really hope the WIAA wakes up and gives the support and tools so those young refs can be utilized and be effective.

"Old gaurd" politics has no place in officiating.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain....

Do think more adaptation of college rules would help or hinder the game?

I hope Chuck answers this question because I was just thinking about posting it, myself, after seeing another thread on here advocating that prep wrestling adopt college out-of-bounds rules.  That one issue, in particular, seems to have also popped up a lot lately in offline discussions.

[WBBs Bro]

Ramjet, I really do appreciate  that you understand what Chuck was saying, because he is right. But until you are in the situation that these guys(the refs) are in you will not fully know what you are asking them to do. Like he and I said these guys have absolutely no dog in the fight. They are are out there for the best interest for in the sport. These guys call a match the same way in the beginning of the year and  throughout the the tournament series. They don't change magically just because YOU think it is more important.  I hope your son  figures it all out through his valuable experiences as he continues to reach his goals as an elite official. And as far as reviewing and analizing every match officials do is just silly. I could understand your point if you want Professional referees and that is all they do, but reality is that is not going to happen.

[chuckref]

I like these discussions because it makes me think about how I do things on the mat.  As far as college goes, I think Spartan could answer that better since he does both.  But in my opinion, I like it the way it is, we just have to get better at calling it.  When we met for regionals, we found that several of us were calling out of bounds differently.  Once we did, we reviewed the rule again and were able to all agree on what should be OOB.  The guys that do this that I know really try to do the best they can.  Our goal is that you don't even know we are there.

Chuck

[Spartan]

Ramjet,  just look at what you said (the way you want to see the match called). Everyone has an opinion on how the match should be called, which is easy when you are sitting in the stands doing the screaming. The official has to be impartial and is reffing the match as such.

It is like they always say about opinions, everyone has one and they all stink.  Stand on the mat in the field house and listen to the crowd beg for a stalling call, they definitely are not impartial, or in the team state finals when the state title is on the line you will never understand until you are in that position. It is always easy to judge when you are not the person being judged.

[ramjet]

I like these discussions because it makes me think about how I do things on the mat.  As far as college goes, I think Spartan could answer that better since he does both.  But in my opinion, I like it the way it is, we just have to get better at calling it.  When we met for regionals, we found that several of us were calling out of bounds differently.  Once we did, we reviewed the rule again and were able to all agree on what should be OOB.  The guys that do this that I know really try to do the best they can.  Our goal is that you don't even know we are there.

Chuck

I think most everyone looks at these threads with interest and the information you posted here makes a huge difference in explaining how and what you are doing to improve. I think most folks understand it is not an easy job and most just want consistency and talking about it and getting on the same page sure is a step towards that. I think training is dynamic even at my age I learn something new every day.......

I think generally people also understand there is subjectiveness in making calls you cannot get way from that it would be an impossible task to do that. The human element makes the game interesting to say the least.

Again I appreciate you taking the time to explain things I do wish refs were more willing to do so rather than get defensive right away.....I can see why they do that I am sure they get sick and tired of getting hammered on every time they turn around but you all know it comes with the territory too. One way in my mind to slow that down is take the time to explain things like you have on this thread.

[ramjet]

Ramjet,  just look at what you said (the way you want to see the match called). Everyone has an opinion on how the match should be called, which is easy when you are sitting in the stands doing the screaming. The official has to be impartial and is reffing the match as such.

It is like they always say about opinions, everyone has one and they all stink.  Stand on the mat in the field house and listen to the crowd beg for a stalling call, they definitely are not impartial, or in the team state finals when the state title is on the line you will never understand until you are in that position. It is always easy to judge when you are not the person being judged.

Yes I agree but understanding the thought process and how you all interpret the rules is interesting to me and the others asking the question. Just because we ask a question does not automatically mean we think you stink at your job, it just means that we want to better understand it. Some may never understand but the majority of folks do and will if you take the time to explain like you did here.

The only stupid question is the one you don to ask.......

[Spartan]

Ramjet,  just look at what you said (the way you want to see the match called). Everyone has an opinion on how the match should be called, which is easy when you are sitting in the stands doing the screaming. The official has to be impartial and is reffing the match as such.

It is like they always say about opinions, everyone has one and they all stink.  Stand on the mat in the field house and listen to the crowd beg for a stalling call, they definitely are not impartial, or in the team state finals when the state title is on the line you will never understand until you are in that position. It is always easy to judge when you are not the person being judged.

Ram we have talked a few times, the constant scrutiny that young officials are put under is a huge problem when it comes to getting them to stick around, I have heard it several times "it is not worth the hassle" I think the mentoring that we have been doing has helped but getting them into varsity tournaments so they can get some incentive to stick to it would be important.

[ramjet]

No doubt about that Spartan I can see where they might want to say to heck with it!

I appreciate the feedback and keep pushing forward.

[DrWhargoul]

What I like about this topic is that the double stalling one isn't that far away; yet that one seems to have more of a flavor of stalling being called too often.

[chuckref]

I think that's kind of the point Spartan is trying to make.  No matter when we make the call or don't make it, someone is going to be unhappy.  One of the best tools that I use and have said it on here is Badger State Wrestling.  I can't thank Shane enough for what he does and having the ability to watch a lot of Wisconsin wrestling and reffing allows us to observe ourselves and others.  Thanks again!! 

Chuck

[jaguarwrestler]

in a tournament fans generally only want stalling called when their wrestler is behind... maybe if you where ahead more often you wouldn't need to blame the refs for not calling it... or maybe then you would complain they are calling it on your wrestler because your ahead.

I only want stalling called when it is truly stalling. I never want double stalling called and I can't stand when a wrestler gets nailed simply because they are ahead.

[aarons23]

I just want consistency in stalling calls.  Many times it's not even consistent in the same match...never the less from match to match.

[DocWrestling]

in a tournament fans generally only want stalling called when their wrestler is behind... maybe if you where ahead more often you wouldn't need to blame the refs for not calling it... or maybe then you would complain they are calling it on your wrestler because your ahead.

I only want stalling called when it is truly stalling. I never want double stalling called and I can't stand when a wrestler gets nailed simply because they are ahead.

When is it stalling?   Seems obvious to me when a wrestler continues to repeat the same movements over and over.  A wrestler should have to show a variety of moves no matter what position they are in.

State is always a problem and I believe it is because of the pressure on the refs and the fact they have not reffed a lot of matches between 2 state caliber kids the entire season.  Stalling is most often called on the wrestler winning?  Why?  Stalling is most often called in the 3rd period?  Why?  Can a guy just be fatigued?

To me this is the only time someone is stalling... On bottom when lies on belly and keeps elbos in and just clams up, on top if just locks on an ankle or even continually going to cross body ride, on feet with backing up.  Heck by rule stalling could be called on the guy that just holds a guy on his back for 90 seconds with no extra effort to pin the guy with no effort to improve position.

Personally it has to be blatantly obvious to be called and don't penalize kids for getting the lead and then wrestling conervatively.  They should have that right.  Even with stalling, the guy losing has the opportunity to get out or make something happen and score.  Who said it should be easy if you are losing.  I don't think the losing wrestler should earn stalling points unless it is so obvious!

[ramjet]

Spartan can answer this but in College instead of much in the way of "stalling" they are called stalemate and restart so the opportunity is there to try another pinning combination or an escape.
Stalling calls more along the lines of evading a score or move? Running out of bounds so to speak to avoid being scored upon.

High School though as I understand and would love clarification is; as long as the top wrestler is making an attempt at a move to progress their position or move towards a pin or to turn the opponent it is not stalling and frankly I very rarely if ever see stalling calls on kids unless they are riding a ankle for or parallel for long periods while riding in high school. I also see that they do verbal warnings (not sure how many if there is standard for that) before the point is awarded.

So here goes my question:

Is there an agreed upon standard for the number of warnings before the point is awarded and is there a time period as well?

Question number 2

Is the standard higher for action held to higher standard for the wrestler leading the match and if so can you explain that?

[chuckref]

There is no verbal warning rule but ref's do it.  They might say "action" or "move" or something like that to get the kids working.  There really is no standard and in my opinion, it should just be called right away because it is only a warning.  I'm not trying to be mean here, but you guys should really get a rule book and read it sometime.  I thought I knew wrestling but it was eye opening when I first became an official and read the actual rules.  Stalling is covered pretty well in the book, but it's open to interpretation.  Check out the guys with the arm bands on the wrong wrists. 

Chuck