Career Records

[woody53]

I can not believe with the knowledgable people on here that we are debating Bye wins in a Tournament. This was established way back in the early 70's that a Bye in a Tournament followed by a win was another win. This force those that avoided a competitor from gaining a win when the top seeds did not wrestle. Byes in Tournaments count as wins when followed by a win.

LOL!   That is why we need you on this forum Woody always checking on us and setting the record straight.

I wouldn't go that far Doc. Always respect your input on situations. You know how to run a Big Tournament.

[TomM]

It is/was my understanding a bye immediately followed by a 'wrestled' win counts as a 'win', but a second bye, prior to the first bye, does not count as a second win after a 'wrestled' win.

SOOOOO... If you somehow have TWO byes in a row, only the bye directly proceeding a 'wrestled' win counts as a win.

[woody53]

It is/was my understanding a bye immediately followed by a 'wrestled' win counts as a 'win', but a second bye, prior to the first bye, does not count as a second win after a 'wrestled' win.

SOOOOO... If you somehow have TWO byes in a row, only the bye directly proceeding a 'wrestled' win counts as a win.

I disagree Tom. As years ago, I had a s State Champ that people avoided. We had a 16 man bracket that, with seeding gave him two byes. Because of a Coaches vote. I checked and two byes, followed by a win, was three wins.

[TomM]

It is/was my understanding a bye immediately followed by a 'wrestled' win counts as a 'win', but a second bye, prior to the first bye, does not count as a second win after a 'wrestled' win.

SOOOOO... If you somehow have TWO byes in a row, only the bye directly proceeding a 'wrestled' win counts as a win.

I disagree Tom. As years ago, I had a s State Champ that people avoided. We had a 16 man bracket that, with seeding gave him two byes. Because of a Coaches vote. I checked and two byes, followed by a win, was three wins.

ok...

[bigoil]

How in a 16 man bracket would you have two byes unless you have 7 kids? And the thought was they all avoided that weight class?

I believe it for one by as that is how I recall it but it doesn't make sense for two byes, i.e. 7 guys in a 16 man bracket. If 9 or more, the first bye would be a bye, the second noncompete would be a forfeit.

[gablesgrip1]

Look at the capital conference.  they have been doing this for years.  Run an 8-man bracket and pig tail the match in.

[ElectricGuy]

I can not believe with the knowledgable people on here

You guys are missing the bigger point, Woody claims there are "knowledgable people" on the forum..

[bigoil]

Look at the capital conference.  they have been doing this for years.  Run an 8-man bracket and pig tail the match in.

There are 9 teams in the conference. This year 160 had the most entrants, 8. All 8 were given a bye first round, that is not a win IMO.

The brackets with 4-7 should get the benefit of a bye win but NOT two byes. Why not make it a 64 man bracket and get 4 byes.

[Quack]

Look at the capital conference.  they have been doing this for years.  Run an 8-man bracket and pig tail the match in.

There are 9 teams in the conference. This year 160 had the most entrants, 8. All 8 were given a bye first round, that is not a win IMO.

The brackets with 4-7 should get the benefit of a bye win but NOT two byes. Why not make it a 64 man bracket and get 4 byes.

You are right, that is not 8 wins, it was only 4 wins, one each for the kid that won their next match

[Handles II]

I can not believe with the knowledgable people on here that we are debating Bye wins in a Tournament. This was established way back in the early 70's that a Bye in a Tournament followed by a win was another win. This force those that avoided a competitor from gaining a win when the top seeds did not wrestle. Byes in Tournaments count as wins when followed by a win.

and yet I'm sure Handles is still going to insist they don't count.

You are correct. I'll argue if for no other reason than general common sense and the principle of the matter. Byes are not counted as one of the maximum number of matches allowed (5) per day. Forfeits do. If it doesn't count as a match, it doesn't count on the overall record.  If in a team tournament a team has a bye, does every wrestler get to count that as an individual win? No.

If you lose in the match after a bye does your first round "win" give you any team points? Nope. If a bye is equal to a match, then win or lose that person should get credit for that 1st round "win". They don't. Not winning after a bye is actually a penalty for your team. Had you advanced in the bracket with a win over a 0-15 wrestler, your team would get and keep those points. With a bye then loss the team gets zero. If a bye then win counts as an extra win, then why wouldn't a bye then loss count as an extra loss especially since it hurts the team exactly the same as a loss would?  Maybe it should. Better go through those brackets and start adding to the loss column.

It's a non-match, it is a nothing. It is a sit in the stands in your street clothes while your girlfriend rubs your shoulders. It shouldn't count as a win on an individual's record anymore than it should count as a loss. I checked several other states (NY, NJ, NC, IA, IL, MN, CA) that don't count them. I understand that the WIAA may do things differently than other states, but then again, it's the WIAA and that doesn't make it right.

[DocWrestling]

It is interesting that you need to report to the mat for a forfeit win but not for a bye.

Just some quirky rules in wrestling.

[StandingSwitch]

I'll muddy the waters even more...

Scenario 1:
Wrestler competes in a dual meet tournament where there are 8 teams.  First match the opposition doesn't have a wrestler at his/her weight so he/she gets a Forfeit and 6 team points. 

Scenario 2:
Wrestler competes in a bracketed tournament where there are 8 teams.  He/She is #1 seed and receives a first round Bye because one team doesn't have a wrestler at that weight.  No points are given unless that wrestler wins his/her next match. 

What's the difference?  Both the bye and the forfeit represent a team where there is no wrestler at that weight class.  So should all byes and forfeits count OR none count OR only count if criteria A, B and C are met...etc, etc, etc?  (so muddy, can't see) 

The use of brackets that don't match the number of teams competing is an entirely different argument IMO which is more of an ethical/laziness discussion.

[DocWrestling]

That makes complete sense for an 8- team tourney.

What do you do for tourney with 12 teams?   They must go to a 16 man-bracket so technically four of the byes are not "forfeits".

Is there a difference there between using a 16-man bracket and using an 8-man bracket with rattails?  In the latter there are no "byes". 

I know on the bracket we use for the Marty Loy, the trackwrestling bracket is set up for 24 teams but we seldom get 24 wrestlers.  The bracket on track shows some matches as "byes" but they really are not matches as we just don't need that many rattails.  We do not count those as matches!

[StandingSwitch]

That's where my final sentence comes into play...my thought is the bracket should always match the number of teams competing whether it's a standard 4/8/16/32 or something with a rat tail.  To take a tournament with 12 teams and stick it in a 16 person bracket and give 4 kids byes (and count those as wins) seems a bit unethical and lazy.  Not to mention all the wrestlers on the back side that now get a free victory for those byes.  Otherwise, invite 7 schools to your tourney rather than 11.  Again, just my opinion...and yes I know this isn't how things work currently and we can't go back and rewrite the record books haha!

[thequad]

 In an 8 team individual tournament and you have a bracket with 4 wrestlers, should there be byes for the 1st round or should it be a 4 man bracket. I'm sure this happens regularly in D2 and D3 regionals. This could make a big difference in team points!