Wisconsin Wrestling Online

I think it's time to start the annual argument between Aaron and I about 12 weights. This place is super quiet.

More to follow.

No need for a reduction of weight classes. The two-piece uniform will be a big hit and bring in upper weight class wrestlers. We are all good regardless of division.

Why break our tradition on the arguement?.... I hope your new co-op flourishes enough to soften your argument on this.

I have always made this argument regardless of my team. It's not about my team. I didn't feel any better when we won duals against teams only because we had more warm bodies.

Quote from: GradeTough on May 15, 2017, 03:40:51 PM
No need for a reduction of weight classes. The two-piece uniform will be a big hit and bring in upper weight class wrestlers. We are all good regardless of division.

Argument in itself ........😂😂😂😂

Quote from: Ghetto on May 15, 2017, 07:48:55 PM
I have always made this argument regardless of my team. It's not about my team. I didn't feel any better when we won duals against teams only because we had more warm bodies.

Your argument is completely based on teams with low numbers...not ideas of how to increase the numbers.  Hopefully you have found 1 way to help schools that don't have the support to grow like it should, instead of punishing the schools who are able to grow competitive teams.

Quote from: aarons23 on May 15, 2017, 09:33:01 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on May 15, 2017, 07:48:55 PM
I have always made this argument regardless of my team. It's not about my team. I didn't feel any better when we won duals against teams only because we had more warm bodies.

Your argument is completely based on teams with low numbers...not ideas of how to increase the numbers.  Hopefully you have found 1 way to help schools that don't have the support to grow like it should, instead of punishing the schools who are able to grow competitive teams.

The argument is based of numbers. All teams.

the choice to go to 8 man football is that it is a choice so poor comparison.

Coaches need to wrestle kids instead of ducking matches.

Many do this in the NLC for the dual team win instead wrestling a kid up or down they FF.

That hurts our sport more than it helps.

one weight movement should be required in those cases where each team has hole instead of the FF or make the FF worth  3 or less points.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 16, 2017, 01:07:55 PM
Ghetto,
I think your a couple months early!!!

I have heard several forum posters say "look at how well cutting kids work's in 8 man football". The FACTS DONT support that in Wisconsin, currently over 20% of the teams in 8 man football have Cooped with other school's. So cutting weight classes wont stop schools from needing to COOP, it will only hurt the schools that can fill or come close to filling all there weight classes.
Hardly any kids have to cut weight anymore if we cut weight classes we will lose more kids because the change will force weight cutting again.
I am an proud anti cut guy, please stand with me in not cutting kids.

I waited this year. Didn't want to take away from any of the wrestlers.

I am for adjusting the amount of weights. We will be on opposite sides on this.

This class I am taking is killing me. I'll get the data up soon.

cannt help but pipe in on a rain day ;D

I will give my lengthy and thought out answer due to some things I have encountered this past spring.

I see some parts of the state that due very, very well in numbers and have 30+ kids in the high school room with JV kids that would be state kids if on other teams.

OK,,,,,,I support the option of 2 divisions. While it would not be cutting by any means at all but it would give the teams and schools 2 options. One with 14 weights or more if voted and needed and the other division with schools having 10-12 man teams.

people can talk promotion all they want but some schools dont have the kids to field 3 winter boy sports or girl sports. Some areas wrestling has never been an option either so they have plugged along.

I also understand that schools may have enough kids for a full team but have several stuck between only a few weights thus having many forfeits.

1. I say give schools options to what they want to do.
2. introduce that to the WIAA
3. improve on the 7 and 7 thing and make a more up to date systems like match count or 4,4 and 4 like someone said.
4. allow teams to project a 2 year outlook to move up or down and be able to reschedule.

also, while teams may have 12 they can still enter 14 man tournament.

I also understand you may have to rework some weights but I also feel you can use the data to see what weight classes work for the teams with lesser numbers.

I do think there should be separate divisions with differing number of weight classes

so....

1) WIAA has to change team state format and get it out of individual regionals
2) Individual state will run the same way with 14 weight classes except have double elimination at state and get rid of regionals and have super sectionals
3) Schools have the choice if they want to compete in 14-weight class or 10-weight class team state.  Divide the teams up into sections rather than conferences.  Do not make the sections too large so that teams have room for non-sectional duals.  Maybe have 6 teams in each sectional.  That is five duals and then non-sectional duals against similar talented teams.  Top 2 teams in each section advance to state tournament team dual series.  Seed team state regional and sectionals.
4) Teams could dual against teams in other divisions but would just agree on 14 weight classes or 10 weight classes before they decide on dual.

Ramjet, Don't you think making a forfeit worth 3 points will lead to more of them?  That is if you believe coaches/kids are "ducking" matches.

Quote from: ramjet on May 16, 2017, 03:48:07 PM
the choice to go to 8 man football is that it is a choice so poor comparison.

Coaches need to wrestle kids instead of ducking matches.

Many do this in the NLC for the dual team win instead wrestling a kid up or down they FF.

That hurts our sport more than it helps.

one weight movement should be required in those cases where each team has hole instead of the FF or make the FF worth  3 or less points.

Less impact make it 1 point.

This will result in more "ducking".  If a coach thinks they won't win a certain match up, they are more likely to forfeit if they are only giving up 1 or 3 points rather than 6 don't you think?

Quote from: ramjet on May 17, 2017, 08:14:32 AM
Less impact make it 1 point.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 17, 2017, 08:34:10 AM
This will result in more "ducking".  If a coach thinks they won't win a certain match up, they are more likely to forfeit if they are only giving up 1 or 3 points rather than 6 don't you think?

Quote from: ramjet on May 17, 2017, 08:14:32 AM
Less impact make it 1 point.

Agree forfeits should be more. That way you send someone out there to wrestle and not run away.

Make FFs worth more? Ugh. That is a serious step backwards.

If we have 10 guys and the other team is full now, we are down 24-0. More? Geez. That makes no sense.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 16, 2017, 05:40:49 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on May 16, 2017, 04:27:53 PM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 16, 2017, 01:07:55 PM
Ghetto,
I think your a couple months early!!!

I have heard several forum posters say "look at how well cutting kids work's in 8 man football". The FACTS DONT support that in Wisconsin, currently over 20% of the teams in 8 man football have Cooped with other school's. So cutting weight classes wont stop schools from needing to COOP, it will only hurt the schools that can fill or come close to filling all there weight classes.
Hardly any kids have to cut weight anymore if we cut weight classes we will lose more kids because the change will force weight cutting again.
I am an proud anti cut guy, please stand with me in not cutting kids.

If there aren't kids to fill weights, we clearly aren't cutting kids.

Having kids wrestle JV is not cutting them.

I waited this year. Didn't want to take away from any of the wrestlers.

I am for adjusting the amount of weights. We will be on opposite sides on this.

This class I am taking is killing me. I'll get the data up soon.

Cutting kids sounds bad and clearly mean, you should really reconsider cutting kids..

Quote from: Ghetto on May 17, 2017, 09:45:30 AM
Make FFs worth more? Ugh. That is a serious step backwards.

If we have 10 guys and the other team is full now, we are down 24-0. More? Geez. That makes no sense.

Just like cutting opportunities for athletes.

I don't see making them worth more or less making much difference in strategic forfeits. It's not ducking if it's looking for the win for the team. No spectator can legitimately call it ducking ; save for the uninformed. Thinking one can read a coach's mind is what we call speculation. If anything, make the FF 5 points. Don't know what that'll do. If you're a coach, you think in terms of point swings. That's huge chink of your strategy as a coach.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 17, 2017, 10:23:50 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on May 17, 2017, 09:45:30 AM
Make FFs worth more? Ugh. That is a serious step backwards.

If we have 10 guys and the other team is full now, we are down 24-0. More? Geez. That makes no sense.

Just like cutting opportunities for athletes.

Getting rid of programs is the only way to cut opportunities for kids. Even if a team co-ops, they still have JV opportunities if they don't make varsity.

I you think the 14 weight format is a good idea then why not 17? It would  give 3 more non existing wrestlers an opportunity to forfeit!!

Quote from: FinalWord on May 17, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
I you think the 14 weight format is a good idea then why not 17? It would  give 3 more non existing wrestlers an opportunity to forfeit!!

Thats a terrible arguement for maintaining the current weight classes...but yes if we could grow the sport to that point it would be great!  Reducing weight classes only punishes those who are filling team by making thenm take wrestlers out of their line ups (thus another reason we lose wrestlers.), but also makes the good team better because they could squeeze out their weeker kids.  So instead of losing 56-10...you may now loose 46-6...is that better for the sport???  Also cutting weight classes does not necisarilly help more team than it would hurt...so your team only has 7 wrestlers and three of them are relivatively the same weight and one gets squeezed out...or do you expect to move that kid up another weight class that is now farther apart than it was????  Or should he cut more weight to get to that next weight class???Then spreading weight classes out more will create more weight cutting which is why these types of proposals will never get passed.  So lets stop whining about the number of weight classes and work on ways to promote the sport and builder stronger programs.

Quote from: aarons23 on May 17, 2017, 01:08:15 PM

Quote from: FinalWord on May 17, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
I you think the 14 weight format is a good idea then why not 17? It would  give 3 more non existing wrestlers an opportunity to forfeit!!

Thats a terrible arguement for maintaining the current weight classes...but yes if we could grow the sport to that point it would be great!  Reducing weight classes only punishes those who are filling team by making thenm take wrestlers out of their line ups (thus another reason we lose wrestlers.), but also makes the good team better because they could squeeze out their weeker kids.  So instead of losing 56-10...you may now loose 46-6...is that better for the sport???  Also cutting weight classes does not necisarilly help more team than it would hurt...so your team only has 7 wrestlers and three of them are relivatively the same weight and one gets squeezed out...or do you expect to move that kid up another weight class that is now farther apart than it was????  Or should he cut more weight to get to that next weight class???Then spreading weight classes out more will create more weight cutting which is why these types of proposals will never get passed.  So lets stop whining about the number of weight classes and work on ways to promote the sport and builder stronger programs.

Amen!

Run through a bunch of team scenarios with a 1 point FF you will find out it's good idea to discourage FF. G you are wrong matches are ducked all the time to think that match ups are not us incredibly naive.


Think of total score wrestling the matches can have greater impact than not wrestling.

So if I wanted to win the dual, I could forfeit 5 times to make sure I only lose 5 team points (FF=1 team point) and then I will want to send my stud out to pin their kid to take the lead 6-5 but then he forfeits so I am still down 5-1.

I don't see it. 

If you want more matches then you need to make forfeits worth 10 points.
If you want closer duals and fewer matches then you make forfeits 1 point.

Maybe we just make every weight class worth one point. A win is a win no matter whether it is a pin, forfeit, or overtime victory.  Scores would then be 9-5 or 11-3 and would not look as bad as 44-9.  Perception would be much better with this system and coaches would be willing to wrestle kids.

Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

Doc thank you for playing.

You are correct so the  duals should only be determined by wrestled matches no points for FF at all. Then the matches are determined by those matches that actually take place. Also the FF does not go on the record as a win.

So head to head matches. Ghetto has good point about weight classes however the number of weight classes is not the issues as much as the unwillingness to have wrestlers compete a weight class higher to get the or a match in.

Keep in mind even COOPs are not increasing overall numbers just numbers on the COOP team.

I used think dropping weight classes was a good idea but think other things can be done like the above.

See low numbers at a school may or may not be something that can be remedied. So bring flexibility to dual meets emphasize the actual wrestled matches not the FF. No reason to punish one school because they have high girl count or low numbers in the school.

Like I said this all a mute point because no way no how you get the Coaches association or the WIAA to take bold moves to improve the sport. 

Facts:

In 2005 there were 347 teams. In 2017 there are 332. 15 teams times 14 weights is 210 lost opportunities.

In 2011-12, 8946 kids body fat tested. In 2016-17 there were 7737 kids tested. 1209 less kids body fatted this year compared to 2011-12.

In 2005, 56.7% of the teams in Wisconsin fielded a team at regionals of 12 or less kids.

In 2017, 68.6% of the teams in Wisconsin fielded a team at regionals of 12 or less kids.

In 2017, 79.6% of teams in D3 had 12 or less kids at regionals.

Since 2005, 72.2% of the teams in D3 had 12 or less. The number started at 66.7%, and has climbed as high as 83.5% and now stands at 79.6%.

If you take out kids with 0-0 records, and kids whose winning percentage is .201 or worse, that number climbs higher. In 2016, if you take out those kids who were more or less JV kids filling a spot at regionals, 87.5% of the teams in D3 had 12 kids or less. 72.0% of the D2 teams had 12 or less, and 68.0% of the teams in D1 had 12 or less.

I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Quote from: npope on May 17, 2017, 06:07:55 PM
Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

Track is probably a good example of how this might be able to be dealt with.  Many teams at a meet.   I still like big duals and marquee team matchups but I really hate showing up to majority forfeits.  It is sooo bad. 

I'm with the Litteguy o this !    Good call     ;)

Quote from: MNbadger on May 17, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Quote from: npope on May 17, 2017, 06:07:55 PM
Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Quote from: foose4 on May 18, 2017, 09:37:56 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 17, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Quote from: npope on May 17, 2017, 06:07:55 PM
Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Can't one still be on a TEAM without dual participation?

Quote from: foose4 on May 18, 2017, 09:37:56 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 17, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Quote from: npope on May 17, 2017, 06:07:55 PM
Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Plus 1000....at the coaches convention the three team state champs coaches talked about program building and the one common denominator in all three was stressing team first. 

I understand the interest in the team thing, but my point is that all of this concern about weight classes and forfeits is a direct result of the refusal to let go of the team format. So maybe taking a step back and contemplating the bigger picture would lead to some solutions to the problem that is the topic of the thread. Simply refusing to put possible options on the table for consideration just because "that's what we like" isn't a "winning" approach to a sticky problem; some things may have to be sacrificed for the greater goal.

Quote from: Ghetto on May 17, 2017, 09:51:29 PM


In 2011-12, 8946 kids body fat tested. In 2016-17 there were 7737 kids tested. 1209 less kids body fatted this year compared to 2011-12.

That is a significant 13.5% drop in 5 years.  That is the equivalent percentage of dropping 2 weight classes.

Quote from: DocWrestling on May 18, 2017, 11:45:19 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on May 17, 2017, 09:51:29 PM


In 2011-12, 8946 kids body fat tested. In 2016-17 there were 7737 kids tested. 1209 less kids body fatted this year compared to 2011-12.

That is a significant 13.5% drop in 5 years.  That is the equivalent percentage of dropping 2 weight classes.

Please compare all sports and you will see the same decline.  In many other states wrestling is increasing....they did not accomplish that by reducing weight classes and increase weight cutting.

Quote from: aarons23 on May 18, 2017, 10:35:52 AM

Quote from: foose4 on May 18, 2017, 09:37:56 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 17, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Quote from: npope on May 17, 2017, 06:07:55 PM
Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Plus 1000....at the coaches convention the three team state champs coaches talked about program building and the one common denominator in all three was stressing team first. 

And you will hear the same thing from every coach in every sport.  No coach is ever going to come out and say "ya we decided to abandon the team concept and focus on individual accomplishments". 

The issue isn't the "team" concept it is the format.  Maybe reducing weight classes isn't the answer but if we can get a consensus that our current dual format is broken, maybe we can get legitimate suggestions on how to improve it.  I can honestly say that when I look at dual meet results in the paper that I am shocked when there is a dual meet with no forfeits.  I think last year there might have been 2 or 3 (didn't check them all).  It makes our sport look poor.  Friends of mine that know I'm a "wrestling guy" have laughed about duals that had 2 matches and were over in 15 minutes.

People go to track meets and there isn't even usually a team score visible.  The team results get posted but basically it is similar to wrestling in that it is primarily an individual sport with a team component.

The club concept used in Europe for wrestling would seem to rely far more on the tournament format than duals (not saying there aren't some duals, but it isn't the primary competition format). While I know that notion is a bit foreign (no pun intended) to most of us, if it solves this current dual format problem then it should at least be on the table. Adapt or die.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 18, 2017, 01:57:50 PM
People go to track meets and there isn't even usually a team score visible.  The team results get posted but basically it is similar to wrestling in that it is primarily an individual sport with a team component.

At any Track invitational team scores are definitely noted along with individual results. At Triangular/Quads, you often don't hear individual or team scores but at some you hear both.

Yes Big Oil but it is similar to an individual tournament not a dual.

So what I was saying does promote team it allows those with numbers issues to compete by throwing out the points from FF. It will also encourage and promote wrestling matches where you cou,d or can move a wrestler up to get that match because that is the only way you get the points is to wrestle the match and win the match.

It is just apparent to me that I have a different view of wrestling than others.

The duals are the best part of wrestling.  They are the only events that parents understand or students and families attend.

I went through a program that everything was about the team and the dual.  Every wrestler contributed to the victory even if they only gave up a tech fall and did not get pinned and everyone on the team knew how important that was.  Kind of like the guy that just keeps setting screens on the basketball court

Duals give a wrestler so many ways to contribute and two ways to win.  Even the guys on the bench not wrestling feel part of the team.

The most successful programs emphasize the duals.

Tournaments are for the diehard fans and best individual wrestlers.  Everyone else just sees them as long Saturdays focused on nothing more than a few wrestlers that make it to the end.  Heck even the coaches cannot be present for every match.  It is truly individual.

You take away duals and I also think you would lose a ton of wrestlers.  Everyone except for the best wrestlers seem to prefer dual tourneys.

Excellent post doc, one point I will ? Tho. I know many multiple time state champs who would trade for a team title. The best wrestlers want team titles too.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 18, 2017, 07:00:26 PM
Yes Big Oil but it is similar to an individual tournament not a dual.

No it is just like a dual for those in the top two spots. Teams and fans of the better teams know exactly what is at stake. The 4*400 is the HWT match and whether their team is 1st or 5th, they are screaming to beat the other school for the "dual" points.

We will have to disagree then.  A track meet is much more similar to an individual tournament.  The different events are run separately just like having the rounds by weight in a wrestling tournament.  You are not watching one competitor from two schools at one time at a track meet like you do in a wrestling dual.  I am of the opinion that the emphasis on duals simply discourages wrestlers and are an impediment to developing a program.  It gets pretty old going to duals all season and you are forfeiting four weights. 
As far as Ramjet sugesting just counting matches wrestled, that will just encourage forfeits.  If I am a coach and obssessed with winning the dual (as one should be in this system) I will forfeit every weight except the one in which I have the state champion (yes, an exaggeration but you get the point).
Lastly, do you really see tons of "casual fans" at ANY (dual or individual) wrestling venue?  The same goes for nearly any high school sport especially.  The same is true for college wrestling. 

And another thing......... It seems we can't keep from contradicting ourselves constantly.
On this board a coach is inappropriate term if he does and inappropriate term if he doesn't.  A coach will get hammered if they forfeit a weight no matter if it is strategy to win a dual (which you are all obssessed with doing).  Then in the next breath everyone is worried that inexperienced wrestlers will get "thrown to the dogs" before they are ready.

As much as I would love to say we can have tremendous impact on participation I am realist and know that is not 100% true. So to the topic at hand and that is that Ghetto has submitted a great deal of data supporting his postion. the reason is FF that's what again I say eliminate FF. Let teams compete head to head even if they have three wrestlers to do so. Winner of the dual meet is the winner of the matches. It is important that teams within a conference get the opportunity to compete head to head in matches wrestled. It seems that with FF points we are in that participation trophy for just showing up.

Duals are important.
Individual accomplishment is important.

GYP, my points are just related to school sponsored wrestling.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 19, 2017, 07:42:13 AM
At the national level Dual tournaments are the fastest growing tournaments in the nation. We are one of the only states in the Midwest that doesn't send a state dual team to GR/FS Nationals. Dual events encourage more scoring and more action, I think it's much more fan friendly.
If we ran more dual style events at much younger ages I know we would grow our numbers.
Perks
Hanging with buddy's
More parents cheering
No parents in the corners
Teaching kids to score
Win or lose as a team, eliminating some of the pressure.
We don't need to cut weight classes, we need to fix or eliminate our MS system.

The reason for reducing weights in my opinion is strictly for duals. It would certainly cut down on the time for individual tournaments as well, which could have a positive effect.

Duals are the opportunity to create excitement within the school population. Very few kids are coming to a tournament to watch their buddies. If a kid thinks a dual is exciting, they may be inclined to give wrestling a shot.

Quote from: Ghetto on May 19, 2017, 08:56:09 AM
The reason for reducing weights in my opinion is strictly for duals. It would certainly cut down on the time for individual tournaments as well, which could have a positive effect.

Duals are the opportunity to create excitement within the school population. Very few kids are coming to a tournament to watch their buddies. If a kid thinks a dual is exciting, they may be inclined to give wrestling a shot.

I agree Ghetto.  Dual meets are absolutely awesome if they aren't littered with FF's.  A lot of posters talk about all the positive aspects of dual meets and how great they are for parents, fans, coaches, etc. which is all true BUT when duals are over before they start or stacked with FF's then they become detrimental to the health of our sport.  Maybe I'm not paying enough attention to the rest of the state but in my area where I look at standings pretty regularly for the Coulee, MVC, Dairyland, and the Scenic Bluffs conferences, there might be 4 schools that have a full line-up the majority of the time.  A Holmen/Sparta dual is competitive and draws a lot of interest.  Maybe West Salem/Bangor vs Viroqua?  Or GET/MM vs WS/B?  Other than that, lots and lots of FF's. 

Looked through all of the 2016 D1 regionals today. Thought I would look at the kids with .200 winning percentage going into regionals and see what their 2017 would look like.

55 kids wrestled regionals with a .200 winning percentage or less (10 matches or more).
26 of of those 55 did not body fat test in 2017 (47%)
Of the 29 who did wrestle the next year, 13 did not wrestle in the regional.

So as a coach, why do I continually run that kid out there to take loss after loss, if I know that he has a 50% of chance of never coming back out, or a 70% chance of not wrestling in the regional the following year? Is it a need to fill weights?

Just food for thought.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 19, 2017, 07:42:13 AM
At the national level Dual tournaments are the fastest growing tournaments in the nation. We are one of the only states in the Midwest that doesn't send a state dual team to GR/FS Nationals. Dual events encourage more scoring and more action, I think it's much more fan friendly.
If we ran more dual style events at much younger ages I know we would grow our numbers.
Perks
Hanging with buddy's
More parents cheering
No parents in the corners
Teaching kids to score
Win or lose as a team, eliminating some of the pressure.
We don't need to cut weight classes, we need to fix or eliminate our MS system.

having youth duals is way for fun for the kids or I should say at least in my area. All the reasons mentioned and having fun is the key to growing the kids interest,

Quote from: Ghetto on May 19, 2017, 08:56:09 AM
The reason for reducing weights in my opinion is strictly for duals. It would certainly cut down on the time for individual tournaments as well, which could have a positive effect.

Duals are the opportunity to create excitement within the school population. Very few kids are coming to a tournament to watch their buddies. If a kid thinks a dual is exciting, they may be inclined to give wrestling a shot.

Another track analogy.  I like the idea of reducing weights for duals.   If that would actually work.  In track a lot of invites only allow 3 people in an event.  Let's say shot put.  They get 3 entries.  But often in quads and other events they can enter as many as they want.    I could see a scenario where the number of matches were 10 in a dual and 14 for tournaments.   I could also see a local quad or triangular where they allow all that could qualify from a team.  I see teams the 1,2,3 in a track meet why not wrestling?

So it seems in a way you are promoting FEWER weights here right Ramjet?:)
If forfeits are less, coaches will opt not to wrestle individuals even more often.
It also punishes the coach who manages to get kids out for the sport.
This brings us back to contradicting ourselves.......... A coach is an expletive if he does and an expletive if he doesn't.  He is told he is not a good coach if he can't get kids out, then when he does, you want to punish him by not counting his wrestlers.........hmmmmmm.
This idea would encourage me to just wrestle one match for the dual using my returning state champion at 145 for instance, knowing I can win that one individual dual. 

Quote from: ramjet on May 18, 2017, 08:15:56 PM
So what I was saying does promote team it allows those with numbers issues to compete by throwing out the points from FF. It will also encourage and promote wrestling matches where you cou,d or can move a wrestler up to get that match because that is the only way you get the points is to wrestle the match and win the match.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 21, 2017, 05:06:20 PM
So it seems in a way you are promoting FEWER weights here right Ramjet?:)
If forfeits are less, coaches will opt not to wrestle individuals even more often.
It also punishes the coach who manages to get kids out for the sport.
This brings us back to contradicting ourselves.......... A coach is an expletive if he does and an expletive if he doesn't.  He is told he is not a good coach if he can't get kids out, then when he does, you want to punish him by not counting his wrestlers.........hmmmmmm.
This idea would encourage me to just wrestle one match for the dual using my returning state champion at 145 for instance, knowing I can win that one individual dual. 

Quote from: ramjet on May 18, 2017, 08:15:56 PM
So what I was saying does promote team it allows those with numbers issues to compete by throwing out the points from FF. It will also encourage and promote wrestling matches where you cou,d or can move a wrestler up to get that match because that is the only way you get the points is to wrestle the match and win the match.

This your narrow minded way if thinking. But what's new. ::) ::)

Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Quote from: MNbadger on May 22, 2017, 06:58:44 AM
Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Making a forfeit less will make for more forfeits its common sense. Why send out your 10-30 freshman to and 30-10 senior if you give up less points for a forfeit.

Correct, but Ramjet believes the opposite is so.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 22, 2017, 07:33:00 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 22, 2017, 06:58:44 AM
Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Making a forfeit less will make for more forfeits its common sense. Why send out your 10-30 freshman to and 30-10 senior if you give up less points for a forfeit.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watch 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

Wisconsin doesn't really have a MS system. Some areas do conference wrestling and duals and some have larger multi meets. There is no unified system.

I was referring to the fact I agreed with you and that Ramjet took the opportunity to make a personal jab at me.  Ramjet thinks forfeits should be less than six points.  I was pointing out the same thing you are.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 04:08:31 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 22, 2017, 03:47:24 PM
Correct, but Ramjet believes the opposite is so.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 22, 2017, 07:33:00 AM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 22, 2017, 06:58:44 AM
Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Making a forfeit less will make for more forfeits its common sense. Why send out your 10-30 freshman to and 30-10 senior if you give up less points for a forfeit.

MNbadger,
What does Ram have to do with my statement?
Times change and the WIAA rules changed a couple of years ago that now allow 7&8th graders to practice with VArsity and JV, when Ram's son came through a few years ago that was prohibited.

A bit touchy in here.    Wow

Here is an obscure way of thinking, or is it.  Remember when there was no Tech Fall?

Wrestling USA – March 1, 1980 Vol.XV-No.8 (Formerly Scholastic Wrestling News)
A FULL VALUE POINT SYSTEM
By Joe Welder
West Fargo High School
WEST FARGO, NORTH DAKOTA

A full value point system in the scoring of wrestling dual meets merits serious consideration. Each team should receive the points earned on the mat by their numbers. Whatever is scored on the mat should be awarded to the team.  Before a full value point system can work, a few changes in our present system would have to occur to insure that a runaway match could not be possible by one individual. As the system of scoring is now each change of position has a counter scoring position with the exception of the near fall. For example a takedown expert could not have a runaway match by scoring only takedowns. His opponent must first score at least one or two escapes before he can be taken down again.  In order to run the score in reversals, his opponent must also score reversals. They break even. The only runaway match would occur in the scoring of near falls.  Here a point should be awarded to the defensive wrestler for escaping to a controlled position. In this manner, a runaway match would be minimized. The wrestler escaping to a controlled position should earn a point for his effort.

Another long overdue change would be to terminate a match after a difference of ten points has been reached. This would eliminate match scores like 33-7, 25-4 (actual scores this year) to the embarrassment of the wrestler and his team. This idea is not new, Baseball, for example, has a ten run rule.

An extra four points would be awarded for a pin. These would be the highest points scored on the mat.  Some might think it de-emphasizes the pin, the ultimate goal of wrestling. In the present day system, the difference from a superior decision to a pin is only one point.

In summary, the point system would be as follows:

Takedown (2 points)
Reversal (2 points)
Near Fall (2 or 3 points)
Escape to Neutral Position (1 point)
Escape to Control Position (1 point)
Penalties (1 point)
Pin (4 points)
Termination of match after difference of 10 points.

Visualize the impact this would have on the present style of wrestling. The emphasis would shift from control wrestling, stalling, to the scoring of points. The more points scored, the higher the team score. The end result of this point system would be more action, less control.

Imagine how much action two heavy weights could create if the team score was only five or six points apart? Or how about the difference in coaching philosophies?  It is much easier to tell a kid to go in and score a point for the team instead of telling him to stall his way for six minutes when wrestling someone better.  Wouldn't that same kid hold his head higher the next day when asked how he did by his classmates after he scored a point or two for his team instead of scoring zero points all year as some less fortunate wrestlers do under the present system?
This new system could keep the beginning wrestler from quiting the program.  By developing one move that he feels would score for his team, he would have an incentive to stay involved.  Fans come to see action. They love to see points being added to a team's score.  Imagine the impact it would have on them. Give them dull matches and they will stay away. They're very important to your program. Ask some of the universities who have dropped the program. The full value point system would be easier to score than the existing dual system.  A full value point system is the answer to apathy and the declining enrollment in wrestling.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Quote from: Barou on May 23, 2017, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2017, 10:20:47 AM

Quote from: Barou on May 23, 2017, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

A strong middle school program is key. Totally agree. When our middle school program was in a good conference with some stability, we were stronger. We got switched into a new conference and our kids are not as prepared.

Having weights classes and structure to duals is huge for kids and creates a sense of team when you have a team score. Just running kids out there by matchups isn't quite the same.

Also, our old conference had a varsity and a JV. If you knew your kid was going to get smashed, you could get him a JV match that might be more competitive. There is such a disparity in athleticism and muscle at the middle school that it's just dumb to match them up only by weight.

Quote from: Ghetto on May 23, 2017, 11:47:19 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2017, 10:20:47 AM

Quote from: Barou on May 23, 2017, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

A strong middle school program is key. Totally agree. When our middle school program was in a good conference with some stability, we were stronger. We got switched into a new conference and our kids are not as prepared.

Having weights classes and structure to duals is huge for kids and creates a sense of team when you have a team score. Just running kids out there by matchups isn't quite the same.

Also, our old conference had a varsity and a JV. If you knew your kid was going to get smashed, you could get him a JV match that might be more competitive. There is such a disparity in athleticism and muscle at the middle school that it's just dumb to match them up only by weight.

Agreed I think most MS duals head to head are pointless though. I like having multis with other teams that way each kid can get 2-3 matches against equal opponents. Instead of well we only have 1 kid at 120 guess we will wrestle.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2017, 12:04:01 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on May 23, 2017, 11:47:19 AM

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 23, 2017, 10:20:47 AM

Quote from: Barou on May 23, 2017, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 22, 2017, 03:01:50 PM
Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

A strong middle school program is key. Totally agree. When our middle school program was in a good conference with some stability, we were stronger. We got switched into a new conference and our kids are not as prepared.

Having weights classes and structure to duals is huge for kids and creates a sense of team when you have a team score. Just running kids out there by matchups isn't quite the same.

Also, our old conference had a varsity and a JV. If you knew your kid was going to get smashed, you could get him a JV match that might be more competitive. There is such a disparity in athleticism and muscle at the middle school that it's just dumb to match them up only by weight.

Agreed I think most MS duals head to head are pointless though. I like having multis with other teams that way each kid can get 2-3 matches against equal opponents. Instead of well we only have 1 kid at 120 guess we will wrestle.

I agree....give up a few pounds to get someone of your experience.  While duals are fun many times there are tons of pins and kids not getting the most out of their Tuesday night.  I believe there is a time and place for middle school duals but not during the week when we could get kids 3 matches against common experienced opponents.

This is where the problem is with Middle School wrestling and trying to have everyone on the same page.  It's just not possible because too many are not on the same page.

Main issues with not being able to mainstream middle school wrestling....

1.  The largest issue is time of season.  Some go early and some go late....for schools to become uniform many would have to change their basketball season time which Im sure they don't want to do.

2.  Some coaches like duals, some like extra matches, some only want one match and others would like four.  Its not always easy to get coaches to come to a common ground.

3.  What constitutes junior high?  Some are 5-8th while others are 6-8th and 7th-8th.  I'm an advocate of having them get these free matches in the earlier the better.  My fifth graders are getting 25 matches extra a year that they would not otherwise get....but there will be argument against it also.

Could there be a nice alignment for junior high?  Yes.  Will there be?  No.  Too many variables out there.

We are very fortunate to be in a great conference with great coaches that work together to come up with a common goal of whats best for the kids.  Fifth graders are allowed to wrestle, but some schools go 6th-8th...depending on what their administration says.  We are lucky to have a school that runs a great conference tournament with probably 500 plus kids this coming year and I think the teams will see improvement because of the changes we have made.

I used to be a big supporter of reducing the number of weight classes but now not so much.  When I look back on our conference over the past 10 years there has been a lot of change on the top and bottom of our conference.  Teams that were once the top teams in the conference and the talent gap seemed insurmountable became beatable over time.  The ebb and flow of a program changes.  Coaching staff changes, parent involvement changes and it can completely change your program.  For better or worse.

As a whole the state median number is probably 12 weight classes, at least that is what the data for regionals seems to point to that Ghetto provides.  But a program that is working their tail off to build their program shouldn't be penalized just because other teams don't want to work as hard at recruiting, or off season wrestling, or building their youth numbers.  No I am not saying that coaches aren't trying to build their programs or aren't working hard.  But do they have enough people on board sharing their vision? 

Then where do you stop for weight classes?  Why not 15 weight classes or 17 weight classes?  I don't have a reason why not more weight classes other than it would seem like an over kill at anything more than 14.

The top teams change in the conference, region and state.  Usually not over a year or two but gradually they will change.  If your team isn't where you want it to be go out and recruit parents to help you build it up and to get their kids involved.  If you ask enough people you will find people that will get on board.  You just have to make it your top priority.  If you have been involved in wrestling for 10 years or more or wrestled in high school and now are coming back around in it with your child, think back to the teams that were great 10-20 years ago and think who are the great teams now.  None of them are really the same.  Some teams have great tradition and always have a good team but they don't always win.

I have been fortunate to have been a part of two solid programs that have had some great years and some not as great years.  What made the difference in the great years were the parents putting in the time when the kids were younger and getting them to practice, camps, tournaments etc.  They came into high school more advanced and ready to wrestle at a varsity level sooner.  You have to get the kids in when they are young and build a family atmosphere so they don't want to do anything else.  Make it so they would rather hang out with their wrestling family and do freestyle and greco instead of joining lacrosse or baseball.  I coach wrestling at Waunakee and my son wrestles for Waunakee and also plays football for Waunakee.  In Waunakee everything is about football.  We had a football parent/player meeting Sunday night and Coach Rice kept using the same word over and over again.  Commitment.  Think about how much are you committing to your program.  Be honest with yourself and really think about it.  There is no right or wrong answer.  People have different priorities in life and winning a state team championship usually isn't one of them.

Reducing weight classes won't get more kids out for wrestling.  Neither will co-oping teams.  If your team is struggling for numbers ride out the storm because time will change program leaders, administration, coaches and students in a school.  Once you co-op a team it is almost impossible to get a school to stand on its own again.

Quote from: Troy Grindle on May 23, 2017, 09:57:06 PM
I used to be a big supporter of reducing the number of weight classes but now not so much.  When I look back on our conference over the past 10 years there has been a lot of change on the top and bottom of our conference.  Teams that were once the top teams in the conference and the talent gap seemed insurmountable became beatable over time.  The ebb and flow of a program changes.  Coaching staff changes, parent involvement changes and it can completely change your program.  For better or worse.

Totally agree. There is ebb and flow to programs regardless of where they are.

As a whole the state median number is probably 12 weight classes, at least that is what the data for regionals seems to point to that Ghetto provides.  But a program that is working their tail off to build their program shouldn't be penalized just because other teams don't want to work as hard at recruiting, or off season wrestling, or building their youth numbers.  No I am not saying that coaches aren't trying to build their programs or aren't working hard.  But do they have enough people on board sharing their vision? 

But you ARE saying that. You just did. You made the comparison between teams working their tail off and others. That perception is the one I've been fighting for years. The assumption is always that teams that struggle for numbers aren't trying.

Then where do you stop for weight classes?  Why not 15 weight classes or 17 weight classes?  I don't have a reason why not more weight classes other than it would seem like an over kill at anything more than 14.

If we can't fill 14, adding more would make little sense.

The top teams change in the conference, region and state.  Usually not over a year or two but gradually they will change.  If your team isn't where you want it to be go out and recruit parents to help you build it up and to get their kids involved.  If you ask enough people you will find people that will get on board.  You just have to make it your top priority.  If you have been involved in wrestling for 10 years or more or wrestled in high school and now are coming back around in it with your child, think back to the teams that were great 10-20 years ago and think who are the great teams now.  None of them are really the same.  Some teams have great tradition and always have a good team but they don't always win.

I completely agree that bringing the community in will help build a program.

I have been fortunate to have been a part of two solid programs that have had some great years and some not as great years.  What made the difference in the great years were the parents putting in the time when the kids were younger and getting them to practice, camps, tournaments etc.  They came into high school more advanced and ready to wrestle at a varsity level sooner.  You have to get the kids in when they are young and build a family atmosphere so they don't want to do anything else.  Make it so they would rather hang out with their wrestling family and do freestyle and greco instead of joining lacrosse or baseball.  I coach wrestling at Waunakee and my son wrestles for Waunakee and also plays football for Waunakee.  In Waunakee everything is about football.  We had a football parent/player meeting Sunday night and Coach Rice kept using the same word over and over again.  Commitment.  Think about how much are you committing to your program.  Be honest with yourself and really think about it.  There is no right or wrong answer.  People have different priorities in life and winning a state team championship usually isn't one of them.

Reducing weight classes won't get more kids out for wrestling.  Neither will co-oping teams.  If your team is struggling for numbers ride out the storm because time will change program leaders, administration, coaches and students in a school.  Once you co-op a team it is almost impossible to get a school to stand on its own again.

It is my belief that success breeds success. I also believe that if we had closer duals at home in front of families and friends, it would be easier to build long term. Here's what we DO know. Numbers are down. We've lost a ton of kids within the last five years. Is the answer to continue what we are doing and hope?

I'm hopeful that nationwide we will change. I know we as a state we won't set the trend.

Our program has recently experienced a revival because our numbers have improved.  The intentional revision of our youth and middle school programs have been a big part of that.  Not only do we now fill all weight classes on our high school team, but those kids also enter high school with an attitude that results in greater team unity and improved practice productivity.  Not only has this benefited those whom have been through all program levels; it also encourages others to give wrestling a try and helps them progress quickly.  Last year, we had two rookies advance to Sectionals, one of whom was a conference champ.  I believe that the expanded number of weight classes increases opportunities, but full benefit of those opportunities depends upon other systemic factors that coaches must nurture.  Just like my grandpa used to say; It's not what you have, but what you do with what you have.

Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Quote from: colekaden on May 25, 2017, 08:08:43 AM
Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Honest questions - is it safe to assume that the majority of coaches don't believe JHI is in the best interest of the kids?  Or is JHI not even a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

Quote from: Barou on May 25, 2017, 08:14:18 AM

Quote from: colekaden on May 25, 2017, 08:08:43 AM
Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Honest questions - is it safe to assume that the majority of coaches don't believe JHI is in the best interest of the kids?  Or is JHI not even a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

I don't think JHI inclusion is a necessity. For some kids they could for sure handle varsity wrestling but then you have a bunch that couldn't.  I feel like we are alright without JHI, but would like there to be a better more consistent MS season across the state.

Quote from: Barou on May 25, 2017, 08:14:18 AM

Quote from: colekaden on May 25, 2017, 08:08:43 AM
Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Honest questions - is it safe to assume that the majority of coaches don't believe JHI is in the best interest of the kids?  Or is JHI not even a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

I think we are slow to change. Would JHI help? I'm not sure. Minnesota has it and they still struggle to fill weights.

I really don't get the resistance to going to 12 weights. We don't fill 14 weights for the majority of teams. It's that simple. I think it's the same thing. Coaches don't want to change.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 25, 2017, 08:32:30 AM

Quote from: Barou on May 25, 2017, 08:14:18 AM

Quote from: colekaden on May 25, 2017, 08:08:43 AM
Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Honest questions - is it safe to assume that the majority of coaches don't believe JHI is in the best interest of the kids?  Or is JHI not even a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

I don't think JHI inclusion is a necessity. For some kids they could for sure handle varsity wrestling but then you have a bunch that couldn't.  I feel like we are alright without JHI, but would like there to be a better more consistent MS season across the state.

To be clear though JHI isn't just a "varsity" thing. 

I really don't get the resistance to going to 12 weights. We don't fill 14 weights for the majority of teams. It's that simple. I think it's the same thing. Coaches don't want to change.
[/quote]

Let me help you with this.....cutting weight classes causes a bigger discrepancies in weights, causing even more weight cutting.  More weight cutting is bad anyway you look at it.  You do realize in the past kids have died cutting weight.  A person I know a person in WIAA that says for that reason alone it will never happen.  Besides the fact that unless your team gets really lucky and are spread out enough in weight to not also knock someone out of your line up....it may hurt you more than help you.  It's sad we spend so many pages on how to reduce the sport instead of how to grow the sport.

Completely agree with aarons. I don't even think it would help the bottom teams be more competitive because they would just wrestle against even tougher kids. Some of the weaker kids would get bumped out. It also reduces opportunities for our kids. According to Ghetto there were 332 teams so if you cut 2 weight classes that is possibly 664 kids who wouldn't have a spot. Obviously some of those are open weight classes, but just think if even half are filled. 332 kids lose an opportunity!!!

Quote from: aarons23 on May 25, 2017, 09:30:13 AM


I really don't get the resistance to going to 12 weights. We don't fill 14 weights for the majority of teams. It's that simple. I think it's the same thing. Coaches don't want to change.

Let me help you with this.....cutting weight classes causes a bigger discrepancies in weights, causing even more weight cutting.  More weight cutting is bad anyway you look at it.  You do realize in the past kids have died cutting weight.  A person I know a person in WIAA that says for that reason alone it will never happen.  Besides the fact that unless your team gets really lucky and are spread out enough in weight to not also knock someone out of your line up....it may hurt you more than help you.  It's sad we spend so many pages on how to reduce the sport instead of how to grow the sport.
[/quote]

1. The weights are arbitrary and do not follow what the majority of kids wrestling weigh.
2. It's not necessarily true that more kids would have to cut weight
3. If the national federation changes, the WIAA will jump right on board
4. It may hurt in some years
5. Reducing weight classes doesn't reduce our sport. We had 12 and our sport had far more participation

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 25, 2017, 09:37:01 AM
Completely agree with aarons. I don't even think it would help the bottom teams be more competitive because they would just wrestle against even tougher kids. Some of the weaker kids would get bumped out. It also reduces opportunities for our kids. According to Ghetto there were 332 teams so if you cut 2 weight classes that is possibly 664 kids who wouldn't have a spot. Obviously some of those are open weight classes, but just think if even half are filled. 332 kids lose an opportunity!!!

I agree that the bottom teams wouldn't be helped. I'll do some more research on how many kids were on each regional roster in 2017.

If all 332 teams had 14 kids, I wouldn't be advocating for reducing weights.

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 25, 2017, 09:37:01 AM
Completely agree with aarons. I don't even think it would help the bottom teams be more competitive because they would just wrestle against even tougher kids. Some of the weaker kids would get bumped out. It also reduces opportunities for our kids. According to Ghetto there were 332 teams so if you cut 2 weight classes that is possibly 664 kids who wouldn't have a spot. Obviously some of those are open weight classes, but just think if even half are filled. 332 kids lose an opportunity!!!

So you're concerned with reducing opportunities but not in favor of JHI?

More numbers:

7737 kids bodyfatted before the season
If we would have had 12 weights this year, 179 kids wouldn't have had a spot at regionals. 91 in D1, 54 in D2, and 34 in D3. That means that 2.3% of the wrestlers in Wisconsin would be effected.

In 2017, if there were 12 weights, on straight numbers, double the amount of teams would have had a full lineup.

37 teams in D1 had 14 kids     17 had 13
21 teams in D2 had 14 kids     12 had 13
12 teams in D3 had 14 kids     10 had 13

Quote from: Ghetto on May 25, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
More numbers:

7737 kids bodyfatted before the season
If we would have had 12 weights this year, 179 kids wouldn't have had a spot at regionals. 91 in D1, 54 in D2, and 34 in D3. That means that 2.3% of the wrestlers in Wisconsin would be effected.

In 2017, if there were 12 weights, on straight numbers, double the amount of teams would have had a full lineup.

37 teams in D1 had 14 kids     17 had 13
21 teams in D2 had 14 kids     12 had 13
12 teams in D3 had 14 kids     10 had 13

Now your just throwing numbers out there to try to weight your arguement even though your numbers are basically a guess....your numbers don't take into account those who would be to small to go up, too big to down and those teams that are bunched up around same weight.....your 2.3% is probably pretty low.  Even if it was close....your still punishing those teams who can fill the classes, spreading the weights across more and creating more weight cutting ( don't fool yourself in thinking that it won't) 

JHI is not being discussed. If it doesn't align with the national federation we will not do it. WIAA wants a vote on national issues. that's why we have 1.5% now.

Quote from: colekaden on May 25, 2017, 12:36:04 PM
JHI is not being discussed. If it doesn't align with the national federation we will not do it. WIAA wants a vote on national issues. that's why we have 1.5% now.

From what I understand states like MN, the Dakotas, NY (8TH), etc that have JHI are in alignment with the national federation.  We know the WIAA doesn't pivot from the national federation with anything.  The last I understand it JHI will not be in violation with the national federation.  In '07 the Minnesota Wrestling Coaches Association came up with a proposal to go from 14 to 12 weight classes which would not align with the national federation (Minnesota wrestling is very forward thinking).  When I was following the story at the time I don't recall where there was a concern with the proposal's position with the national federation.  I find it hard to believe there would be such a concern if there was already a violation with JHI.  

Here's an article from '07.  Fits into this thread pretty well.

http://www.southernminn.com/northfield_news/archives/article_f4521a29-e88e-5385-b61a-14e179b1f024.html

Those aren't guesses. I went through every regional in the state and looked at how many kids each team had at regionals. I also do know for fact that there were 7737 kids who fatted.


This formatting will come out jacked up, but here is how it matches up.

                D1     D2     D3
14 kids       37     21      12
13 kids       17     12      9
12 kids       14      8       9
11 kids       12     11      8
10 kids       14     15      10
9 kids          8       7       12
8 kids          7       6       7
7 kids          5      11      10
6 kids          5       4       10
5 kids          3       2        4
4 kids          0       2        5
3 kids          2       2        3
2 kids          1       0        3
1 kid           0       0        0

The only way that there would be more weight cutting would mean that the 7% bodyfat test is being cheated. Does it happen, of course it does.

JHI has nothing to do with the national federation.

Quote from: Ghetto on May 25, 2017, 01:13:53 PM
Those aren't guesses. I went through every regional in the state and looked at how many kids each team had at regionals. I also do know for fact that there were 7737 kids who fatted.


This formatting will come out jacked up, but here is how it matches up.

                D1     D2     D3
14 kids       37     21      12
13 kids       17     12      9
12 kids       14      8       9
11 kids       12     11      8
10 kids       14     15      10
9 kids          8       7       12
8 kids          7       6       7
7 kids          5      11      10
6 kids          5       4       10
5 kids          3       2        4
4 kids          0       2        5
3 kids          2       2        3
2 kids          1       0        3
1 kid           0       0        0

The only way that there would be more weight cutting would mean that the 7% bodyfat test is being cheated. Does it happen, of course it does.

they are guesses because you have no idea how it will effect each individual team and can not determine how many can go , up down or get eliminated. Again your fooling yourself if you think spreading weight classes will not create more weight cutting.

I think it is a horrible idea. Just for fun though what would your weight classes be?

Not what I said. I said we are not talking about JHI. I can see how you thought that's what I meant. I meant anything not aligned with the national federation we will not do because they want a vote. Its a general statement that we were told last night.  ;) :)

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 25, 2017, 01:32:59 PM
I think it is a horrible idea. Just for fun though what would your weight classes be?

I took the bodyfat tests for every kid for the past 5 years and broke them into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups. Here's what the weights would be if they were correlated with what kids weighed at the bodyfat test:

14 weights: 113, 122, 128, 134, 140, 145, 151, 157, 164, 173, 184, 200, 226, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 161, 170, 181, 197, 224, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 151, 158, 167, 178, 194, 221, 285

Bring on the small guy argument. I am just putting the data out there. I am not against the small guy. I'd rather there was a smallest weight around 108.

Quote from: Ghetto on May 25, 2017, 01:59:08 PM

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 25, 2017, 01:32:59 PM
I think it is a horrible idea. Just for fun though what would your weight classes be?

I took the bodyfat tests for every kid for the past 5 years and broke them into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups. Here's what the weights would be if they were correlated with what kids weighed at the bodyfat test:

14 weights: 113, 122, 128, 134, 140, 145, 151, 157, 164, 173, 184, 200, 226, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 161, 170, 181, 197, 224, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 151, 158, 167, 178, 194, 221, 285

Bring on the small guy argument. I am just putting the data out there. I am not against the small guy. I'd rather there was a smallest weight around 108.

IMO, if we went to 12 weight classes:

105, 115, then college weight classes

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 01:07:17 PM
JHI would have to be voted on by the schools not the WIAA.
It can't happen until the Football format changes, you can't just do JHI for one sport.
It's all or nothing

The best female BB player in MN this year is an 8th grader, and many of there good hockey players are 8th graders. The big numbers in football make it almost impossible for a 7th or 8th grader play HS football.

Those are great examples of high quality athletes competing at a high level.  So one of the best girls BB players in the state of MN is not only prepared for varsity competition but is one of the best in the state.  But if she was across the river in WI our coaches would believe she is not physically/mentally prepared for varsity competition.  

Curious, why can't it happen until football's format changes?  And why is it all or nothing?

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 02:07:11 PM
I would much rather see a ton of FF before eliminating little guys that may not have a spot in other sports.

I don't want to eliminate the little guy either. If there wasn't a weight for me in the 80's, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because I would never have tried the sport.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

That is a very interesting perspective.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe because I garnish a little respect among parents with athletes and have explained the benefits of JHI, I've always "convinced" them.  And it's a small sample size.  I think maybe because I live 15 minutes from the WI/MN border that makes a difference too.  Reading stories about junior high athletes competing at a high level in MN isn't anything new.

Very unfortunate that we have that type of culture.  JHI is a win, win across the board.  Generally speaking, the naysayers are close-minded and under educated about the subject and it's literally evidence based right next to us.

Totally not surprised with your observation with the term burnout in WI.  I can go a step further and say the term is overused in wrestling in WI more than any other sport. 

Doesn't surprise me with the football ranking.

I think we all agree that HS football in Florida is one of the top football states in the country and way better than WI.

They have JHI and here is one example of an athlete competing as a 7th grader:

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/prep-rally/florida-7th-grade-football-star-may-verge-becoming-125951993.html

Quote from: Ghetto on May 25, 2017, 01:59:08 PM

I took the bodyfat tests for every kid for the past 5 years and broke them into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups. Here's what the weights would be if they were correlated with what kids weighed at the bodyfat test:

14 weights: 113, 122, 128, 134, 140, 145, 151, 157, 164, 173, 184, 200, 226, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 161, 170, 181, 197, 224, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 151, 158, 167, 178, 194, 221, 285

See, this is why research is so important.  I am floored that we have had that many kids in the upperweights over the last 5 years.  According to those numbers, 25% of our wrestlers are at or above 194 pounds!  I remember when the change was made from 189/215/HWT to 182/195/220/HWT, lots of people claimed we'd never find enough kids that size.  Looks like we have found just as many big guys at or above 194 as we have little guys at or below 131.  I'd say this is evidence that the perceived "truths" about wrestling don't always align with what is actually going on.

Even if this thread generates no action, a big thanks to Ghetto for getting us to at least look at the weight distribution we are currently operating with.

Quote from: Barou on May 25, 2017, 02:58:38 PM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

That is a very interesting perspective.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe because I garnish a little respect among parents with athletes and have explained the benefits of JHI, I've always "convinced" them.  And it's a small sample size.  I think maybe because I live 15 minutes from the WI/MN border that makes a difference too.  Reading stories about junior high athletes competing at a high level in MN isn't anything new.

Very unfortunate that we have that type of culture.  JHI is a win, win across the board.  Generally speaking, the naysayers are close-minded and under educated about the subject and it's literally evidence based right next to us.

Totally not surprised with your observation with the term burnout in WI.  I can go a step further and say the term is overused in wrestling in WI more than any other sport.  

Doesn't surprise me with the football ranking.

Personally, I don't have a side in this debate, but I think you are wrong to characterize those on the other side as being "close-minded and under educated on the subject." I can see very clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI. It's the same argument that people can put out there related to trying to accelerate your little one through academic studies at an early age. What's the rush? So junior can do eighth grade math when 10 years old. So Sally, age 12, wins a state high school cross country title? So what? Those things are temporal - they pass - they are fleeting. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they should do it. There are arguments both ways, so please don't try to paint the other side as somehow myopic or uninformed; their vision as to what is best for kids might actually be more mature than those who think differently. And to be fair, I think there are also equally compelling arguments going the other way.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

This I agree with.

Burnout happens but it is also easily overcome with recognition and changing things up.

You can most definately see the young wrestlers that have family behind them they usually see success.

But I do disagree. The coaches in this state are not even close to being on the same page. Poll them on JHI. I would love to see that poll result.

I will also tell you that HS football in Wisconsin is faltering and many more programs will be in the 8 man or dropping all together at the D3 level. Watch this over the next 5 years.

See the entire concept of grade level qualification is so inefficient.

Why? Because the potential age difference in a specific grade can vary tremendously.

The absolute best way to handle this is specific age catagorizing and allowance based on age NOT grade.

A super age 8th grader can tear up an entire football field on there own.

We have parents that hold back thier children just for the sake of sports.

We have super aged freshman and even Seniors sure they cap the upper age but they do not cap categorization in between.

WWF has it correct age catagorization not GRADE.

Do this and you open things up tremendously and take away the "poor little 7th or 8th grader argument.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 02:43:30 PM

Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

Proof, I can think of more than states that would be less than WI in football (ME, VT, CT, MA, NH, ND, SD, MT, WY, HI, AK, ID, DE) and more that would be on par with WI.

Barou, FL does not allow JHI for larger schools.

Quote from: npope on May 25, 2017, 06:03:10 PM

Quote from: Barou on May 25, 2017, 02:58:38 PM

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 25, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

That is a very interesting perspective.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe because I garnish a little respect among parents with athletes and have explained the benefits of JHI, I've always "convinced" them.  And it's a small sample size.  I think maybe because I live 15 minutes from the WI/MN border that makes a difference too.  Reading stories about junior high athletes competing at a high level in MN isn't anything new.

Very unfortunate that we have that type of culture.  JHI is a win, win across the board.  Generally speaking, the naysayers are close-minded and under educated about the subject and it's literally evidence based right next to us.

Totally not surprised with your observation with the term burnout in WI.  I can go a step further and say the term is overused in wrestling in WI more than any other sport.  

Doesn't surprise me with the football ranking.

Personally, I don't have a side in this debate, but I think you are wrong to characterize those on the other side as being "close-minded and under educated on the subject." I can see very clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI. It's the same argument that people can put out there related to trying to accelerate your little one through academic studies at an early age. What's the rush? So junior can do eighth grade math when 10 years old. So Sally, age 12, wins a state high school cross country title? So what? Those things are temporal - they pass - they are fleeting. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they should do it. There are arguments both ways, so please don't try to paint the other side as somehow myopic or uninformed; their vision as to what is best for kids might actually be more mature than those who think differently. And to be fair, I think there are also equally compelling arguments going the other way.

And to be clear there is NO requirement that junior HAS to compete at a higher level.  I completely agree just because one can doesn't mean they should.  Decisions to compete at a varsity or junior varsity level come down to athlete assessment, coaching recommendation, and parent involvement.  I remember coaching a 7th grader that was super talented as a junior high wrestler but kind of a fringe varsity wrestler.  His parents did not want him competing on varsity even if he was able to win a spot as they didn't think he was physically and mentally developed for a varsity schedule.  We were all on the same page.  In certain dual situations we spoke with the parents about bringing him up to varsity as his opponent would be another 7th grader and a kid he has already competed with.  They agreed.  He ended up being a varsity starter as an 8th grader and a two time state place winner.  He didn't burn out.  His brother was more prepared for the grind as a 7th grader and was a starter from 7th - 12th grade.  Multiple time state place winner.  He didn't burnout either.  Point, JHI isn't mandatory.  I think that point gets lost a lot.  It's as simple as this - If we have a state filled with competent coaches that will make the best decisions for all their student athletes regardless of age, it's a great tool to utilize for multiple reasons that I and many others have suggested many times over the years.  If we don't have competent coaches across our state then it's a mistake because it won't be utilized effectively. 

If a coach doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize it in your program.  If a school doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize in any of your programs.

Curious, what are the clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI?

Quote from: Barou on May 26, 2017, 10:09:47 AM
And to be clear there is NO requirement that junior HAS to compete at a higher level.  I completely agree just because one can doesn't mean they should.  Decisions to compete at a varsity or junior varsity level come down to athlete assessment, coaching recommendation, and parent involvement.  I remember coaching a 7th grader that was super talented as a junior high wrestler but kind of a fringe varsity wrestler.  His parents did not want him competing on varsity even if he was able to win a spot as they didn't think he was physically and mentally developed for a varsity schedule.  We were all on the same page.  In certain dual situations we spoke with the parents about bringing him up to varsity as his opponent would be another 7th grader and a kid he has already competed with.  They agreed.  He ended up being a varsity starter as an 8th grader and a two time state place winner.  He didn't burn out.  His brother was more prepared for the grind as a 7th grader and was a starter from 7th - 12th grade.  Multiple time state place winner.  He didn't burnout either.  Point, JHI isn't mandatory.  I think that point gets lost a lot.  It's as simple as this - If we have a state filled with competent coaches that will make the best decisions for all their student athletes regardless of age, it's a great tool to utilize for multiple reasons that I and many others have suggested many times over the years.  If we don't have competent coaches across our state then it's a mistake because it won't be utilized effectively. 

If a coach doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize it in your program.  If a school doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize in any of your programs.

Curious, what are the clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI?

That's a very good response, Barou.

I certainly trust most coaches aren't going to try to turn the middle level kid, with seasonal interest, into the national qualifier; and won't kill the kid who wants the bigger matches. More options are good.

I've had several middle schoolers who were ready for varsity. They just were. Others not so much.

The only situation that I might worry about is the pressure to fill a varsity spot with a not-ready kid. I doubt that would be a major deterrent, though.

Maybe not everyone on here understands what each of us means by JHI.  
Barou, you can correct me if I am wrong but I think you are saying wrestling practice is 7-12, same room.
Some of our schools do that here.  I think most though have a middle school program and kids that "belong" at the high school move up.  The latter gives you the opportunity to move the more cautious kids along at their pace and give the precocious ones what they need too.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 26, 2017, 05:42:31 PM
Maybe not everyone on here understands what each of us means by JHI.  
Barou, you can correct me if I am wrong but I think you are saying wrestling practice is 7-12, same room.
Some of our schools do that here.  I think most though have a middle school program and kids that "belong" at the high school move up.  The latter gives you the opportunity to move the more cautious kids along at their pace and give the precocious ones what they need too.

That's how I understand it.  If your in Jr high the varsity/jv coach has to ask you to move up...its not a for sure thing.  After the few matches my son's got in middle school this year because coaches didn't want to wrestle their 7th or 8th graders against my 6th grader and my 8th grader got even less matches....I think this is a good solution for all.  Move those up who are ready...let those who are not stay down and get experience.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 27, 2017, 08:35:05 AM
How are choices ever bad? We currently don't have any and the data clearly shows the advanced kids suffer.
Wrestling is not only a local or state level sport like other sports, even in HS season our kids typically wrestle teams from IA, MN, and IL. It would be a real boost and recruiting tool if we could start dominating those states.
I know at Kaukauna they at times have enough quality kids to fill two or three varsity teams. Success draws in all those kids that want to be part of a winning organization. Just like the Kimberly Football team has 50 kids that only get on the field after the first quarter when there up by 35.
So instead of cutting weight classes let's move in a totally different dirrection.

What data shows advanced kids suffer?

https://theguillotine.com/2017/05/2017-asics-all-america-wrestling-team/#more-56195

If you want to make wrestling better it's pretty darn simple collaborate with the very excellent private entities in that business. They know what they are doing.

Oh yea get the coaches on one page.......now that was funny !!!!!

Busy making friends again Ramjet?

Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2017, 12:28:02 PM
Busy making friends again Ramjet?

Stay on topic here MNbadger I know it tough for you to focus and contribute but please try use some of that incredible teaching ability and educate us on how to improve wrestling in this State after all you have had such an incredible track record in MN........ ::) ;D

Did you not read this?
https://theguillotine.com/2017/05/2017-asics-all-america-wrestling-team/#more-56195

Have you lived under a rock for long?  Do you remember when we used to have the MN/WI classic?  My guess is no.

My point was that you seem to be angry again making antagonistic posts that I referred to.

And yes, I did have some good success coaching.  I also had some down years as well.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2017, 01:15:17 PM
Did you not read this?
https://theguillotine.com/2017/05/2017-asics-all-america-wrestling-team/#more-56195

Have you lived under a rock for long?  Do you remember when we used to have the MN/WI classic?  My guess is no.

My point was that you seem to be angry again making antagonistic posts that I referred to.

And yes, I did have some good success coaching.  I also had some down years as well.

Well little do know what or how I feel I simply said collaboration with some of the private clubs will help increase numbers and improve wrestling. The idea that Schools or the WIAA can do this alone is naive at best.

Frankly you are most likely one of those coaches that would be more about your own success than try and work as team to change with the times. Bottom line is we have too many folks involved with wrestling that are like JC Penny, K-Mart and Sears they will not re-invent and therefore will be left behind just as those brick and mortar businesses were. Now they are going away or gone.

As I said before in an ealier thread Ramjet.  There is a guy at everyone's work just like you.  You work harder, smarter, and look better doing it I am sure.  Yep, all these coaches in MN and WI are too stupid and lazy to try different things to be successful.  Maybe they should all contract with you and we'll all shoot straight to the top!

Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2017, 04:43:12 PM
As I said before in an ealier thread Ramjet.  There is a guy at everyone's work just like you.  You work harder, smarter, and look better doing it I am sure.  Yep, all these coaches in MN and WI are too stupid and lazy to try different things to be successful.  Maybe they should all contract with you and we'll all shoot straight to the top!

Oh my you are extra sensitive today try not to take general statements on a wrestling forum so personal just because folks may not agree with your incredible self proclaimed greatness does not mean everything you put out is 100% wrong.

Fact is this thread was about reducing weights and I will stick to what I said you will not climb that mountain without majority cooperation and that will not happen in this state. I also will say that programs not hamstrung by beauracracy can move forward. However if School coaches will embrace some of the success of the private clubs they can progress and attract wrestlers not just flounder. Cutting weights is one way of making it appear you are progressing but will it do anything to actually grow the sport. it's like the shorts and shirt thing vs the singlet ok let's see if it helps will it? not sure I would love to see that data at the end of the year. Ghetto put some comeliness data to support his position and with that we end up talking about other stats and football?????

Don't feel so down MNbadger it will be ok for you I know you will be able to look into the mirror and recover quickly. Have a great week.

What makes you think I am feeling down?!?!? You make so many suppositions which usually turns out to be projection I would guess.  When have I "proclaimed greatness"?

Quote from: ramjet on May 29, 2017, 06:38:23 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2017, 04:43:12 PM
As I said before in an ealier thread Ramjet.  There is a guy at everyone's work just like you.  You work harder, smarter, and look better doing it I am sure.  Yep, all these coaches in MN and WI are too stupid and lazy to try different things to be successful.  Maybe they should all contract with you and we'll all shoot straight to the top!

Oh my you are extra sensitive today try not to take general statements on a wrestling forum so personal just because folks may not agree with your incredible self proclaimed greatness does not mean everything you put out is 100% wrong.

Fact is this thread was about reducing weights and I will stick to what I said you will not climb that mountain without majority cooperation and that will not happen in this state. I also will say that programs not hamstrung by beauracracy can move forward. However if School coaches will embrace some of the success of the private clubs they can progress and attract wrestlers not just flounder. Cutting weights is one way of making it appear you are progressing but will it do anything to actually grow the sport. it's like the shorts and shirt thing vs the singlet ok let's see if it helps will it? not sure I would love to see that data at the end of the year. Ghetto put some comeliness data to support his position and with that we end up talking about other stats and football?????

Don't feel so down MNbadger it will be ok for you I know you will be able to look into the mirror and recover quickly. Have a great week.

Thank you for keeping this thread alive

I suppose you're one of those sarcastic coaches.  ;)Me too.

Quote from: ramjet on May 29, 2017, 06:38:23 PM

Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2017, 04:43:12 PM
As I said before in an ealier thread Ramjet.  There is a guy at everyone's work just like you.  You work harder, smarter, and look better doing it I am sure.  Yep, all these coaches in MN and WI are too stupid and lazy to try different things to be successful.  Maybe they should all contract with you and we'll all shoot straight to the top!

Oh my you are extra sensitive today try not to take general statements on a wrestling forum so personal just because folks may not agree with your incredible self proclaimed greatness does not mean everything you put out is 100% wrong.

Fact is this thread was about reducing weights and I will stick to what I said you will not climb that mountain without majority cooperation and that will not happen in this state. I also will say that programs not hamstrung by beauracracy can move forward. However if School coaches will embrace some of the success of the private clubs they can progress and attract wrestlers not just flounder. Cutting weights is one way of making it appear you are progressing but will it do anything to actually grow the sport. it's like the shorts and shirt thing vs the singlet ok let's see if it helps will it? not sure I would love to see that data at the end of the year. Ghetto put some comeliness data to support his position and with that we end up talking about other stats and football?????

Don't feel so down MNbadger it will be ok for you I know you will be able to look into the mirror and recover quickly. Have a great week.

What Do club coaches have to do with cutting weights?

Has to do with garnering interest and keeping this sport moving in the right direction. Why cut weights if you have numbers. Quality coaching, success and promotion are what this sport needs and like it or not private business has some pretty good success in doing that. So the models they use must have some credence if folks pay to go there? I think the off season programs tailored around clubs and the flexibility they have keep this sport interesting in places where you do not have top tier programs. The entire premiss behind cutting weights is because of numbers? Am I wrong in that thinking? Get numbers up you have no cutting. The private clubs are not beholden to the WIAA either that does give them some flexibility in programming. I am just saying school programs would benefit themselves by working with not against these clubs. 12 weights will do nothing to increase the numbers or interest in wrestling. Coaches will still FF for the dual win and there very few coaches that work together to improve the sport as whole. Many work to improve themselves or thier program. There are few that work for the sport the one that comes to mind is Arneson he is an exception not the rule. But 12 weights means less FF but like I said it does zero to improve the numbers. Kinda like shorts and drift shirts. I will be really surprized to see overall numbers increase because of that one thing. Yet folks say it will and that's is ridiculous. 12 weights for other reasons makes more sense than improving numbers.

Club coaches don't really help get school numbers up. The kids that go to club are mostly experienced wrestlers. If club coaches are going to walk the hallways and recruit kids then maybe.

Quote from: ramjet on May 30, 2017, 07:31:53 AM
Has to do with garnering interest and keeping this sport moving in the right direction. Why cut weights if you have numbers. Quality coaching, success and promotion are what this sport needs and like it or not private business has some pretty good success in doing that. So the models they use must have some credence if folks pay to go there? I think the off season programs tailored around clubs and the flexibility they have keep this sport interesting in places where you do not have top tier programs. The entire premiss behind cutting weights is because of numbers? Am I wrong in that thinking? Get numbers up you have no cutting. The private clubs are not beholden to the WIAA either that does give them some flexibility in programming. I am just saying school programs would benefit themselves by working with not against these clubs. 12 weights will do nothing to increase the numbers or interest in wrestling. Coaches will still FF for the dual win and there very few coaches that work together to improve the sport as whole. Many work to improve themselves or thier program. There are few that work for the sport the one that comes to mind is Arneson he is an exception not the rule. But 12 weights means less FF but like I said it does zero to improve the numbers. Kinda like shorts and drift shirts. I will be really surprized to see overall numbers increase because of that one thing. Yet folks say it will and that's is ridiculous. 12 weights for other reasons makes more sense than improving numbers.

I don't know of any coach in the public schools that wouldn't embrace club kids/coaches. I loved that some of my kids did LAW; while others were just more seasonal athletes. If clubs are going to bring up numbers, I'd like to know how. They've been around for quite some time now and what you see now is with the added club love. So, the new uniforms might have the same impact on numbers as all the great clubs. Not saying clubs are the reason numbers are down. I'm saying they seem to have minimal impact on the numbers. I would have predicted overall numbers would increase because of the one, club, thing. They have not. A good statistician would make the case that wrestling numbers have decreased as club popularity has risen. Correlation is not causation, though ( I miss my Psych. buddy).

Quote from: MNbadger on May 26, 2017, 05:42:31 PM
Maybe not everyone on here understands what each of us means by JHI.  
Barou, you can correct me if I am wrong but I think you are saying wrestling practice is 7-12, same room.
Some of our schools do that here.  I think most though have a middle school program and kids that "belong" at the high school move up.  The latter gives you the opportunity to move the more cautious kids along at their pace and give the precocious ones what they need too.

In my situation we had two different rooms.  For the most part it was due to our practice room.  We didn't have enough room to fit all 7 - 12.  That wasn't necessarily a bad thing.  The "high school" room was obviously more intense than the "junior high" room.  We had some 9th graders, particularly the pretty green ones practice in the JH room.  The competitive 7th and 8th graders that were varsity starters were obviously in the HS room and some of the non-starters that were capable would get "the call up".  To be honest, it was not really that difficult to determine which room a kid should be in.  It was great to see some of the kids improve to the point that they got called to the HS room.  Another JHI bonus.  

Quote from: bigG on May 30, 2017, 08:40:06 AM

Quote from: ramjet on May 30, 2017, 07:31:53 AM
Has to do with garnering interest and keeping this sport moving in the right direction. Why cut weights if you have numbers. Quality coaching, success and promotion are what this sport needs and like it or not private business has some pretty good success in doing that. So the models they use must have some credence if folks pay to go there? I think the off season programs tailored around clubs and the flexibility they have keep this sport interesting in places where you do not have top tier programs. The entire premiss behind cutting weights is because of numbers? Am I wrong in that thinking? Get numbers up you have no cutting. The private clubs are not beholden to the WIAA either that does give them some flexibility in programming. I am just saying school programs would benefit themselves by working with not against these clubs. 12 weights will do nothing to increase the numbers or interest in wrestling. Coaches will still FF for the dual win and there very few coaches that work together to improve the sport as whole. Many work to improve themselves or thier program. There are few that work for the sport the one that comes to mind is Arneson he is an exception not the rule. But 12 weights means less FF but like I said it does zero to improve the numbers. Kinda like shorts and drift shirts. I will be really surprized to see overall numbers increase because of that one thing. Yet folks say it will and that's is ridiculous. 12 weights for other reasons makes more sense than improving numbers.

I don't know of any coach in the public schools that wouldn't embrace club kics/coaches. I loved that some of my kids did LAW; while others were just more seasonal athletes. If clubs are going to bring up numbers, I'd like to know how. They've been around for quite some time now and what you see now is with the added club love. So, the new uniforms might have the same impact on numbers as all the great clubs. Not saying clubs are the reason numbers are down. I'm saying they seem to have minimal impact on the numbers. I would have predicted overall numbers would increase because of the one, club, thing. They have not. A good statistician would make the case that wrestling numbers have decreased as club popularity has risen. Correlation is not causation, though ( I miss my Psych. buddy).

Good post G.  IMO, through no fault of club teams, the problem is some school districts will eliminate a youth/JH program or not provide the resources necessary because they point to the area club team as being a viable option.  I'm not 100% but I think that's what might have happened with the declining numbers in the La Crosse school district.  It's not practical to think we can recruit the hallways and get kids to join a club team.  More $, venue outside of the school, transportation issues, etc.  

I think in bigger districts, like LaX, you get a couple low number years and you're on the chopping block. Seems that may have been the case with Central. Upsetting to me as we had a dual that was like a war with that team (Benrud is a cool dude.) Now they're got some champs but little team. Grr.

I can't blame the clubs any more than a uniform for the drop in numbers. I wish they had such clubs for runners. My boy would love it.

Ramjet, Other people have touched on this but I'll add my two cents.  Do you really think many  (any) coaches "work against" the private wrestling clubs?  If so, just how do you see this manifest itself?  Also, It has been my experience through 40 plus years of coaching that wrestling coaches, more than other sports DO work toward the general well-being of their sport.  I am honestly surprised that you see things otherwise.  I think the coaches that frequent this site would agree. 
We do agree that retraction is not the answer.  You will have to live with the idea that you agree with me on this point.

Quote from: ramjet on May 30, 2017, 07:31:53 AM
Has to do with garnering interest and keeping this sport moving in the right direction. Why cut weights if you have numbers. Quality coaching, success and promotion are what this sport needs and like it or not private business has some pretty good success in doing that. So the models they use must have some credence if folks pay to go there? I think the off season programs tailored around clubs and the flexibility they have keep this sport interesting in places where you do not have top tier programs. The entire premiss behind cutting weights is because of numbers? Am I wrong in that thinking? Get numbers up you have no cutting. The private clubs are not beholden to the WIAA either that does give them some flexibility in programming. I am just saying school programs would benefit themselves by working with not against these clubs. 12 weights will do nothing to increase the numbers or interest in wrestling. Coaches will still FF for the dual win and there very few coaches that work together to improve the sport as whole. Many work to improve themselves or thier program. There are few that work for the sport the one that comes to mind is Arneson he is an exception not the rule. But 12 weights means less FF but like I said it does zero to improve the numbers. Kinda like shorts and drift shirts. I will be really surprized to see overall numbers increase because of that one thing. Yet folks say it will and that's is ridiculous. 12 weights for other reasons makes more sense than improving numbers.

Quote from: MNbadger on May 30, 2017, 09:57:25 AM
Ramjet, Other people have touched on this but I'll add my two cents.  Do you really think many  (any) coaches "work against" the private wrestling clubs?  If so, just how do you see this manifest itself?  Also, It has been my experience through 40 plus years of coaching that wrestling coaches, more than other sports DO work toward the general well-being of their sport.  I am honestly surprised that you see things otherwise.  I think the coaches that frequent this site would agree. 
We do agree that retraction is not the answer.  You will have to live with the idea that you agree with me on this point.

Quote from: ramjet on May 30, 2017, 07:31:53 AM
Has to do with garnering interest and keeping this sport moving in the right direction. Why cut weights if you have numbers. Quality coaching, success and promotion are what this sport needs and like it or not private business has some pretty good success in doing that. So the models they use must have some credence if folks pay to go there? I think the off season programs tailored around clubs and the flexibility they have keep this sport interesting in places where you do not have top tier programs. The entire premiss behind cutting weights is because of numbers? Am I wrong in that thinking? Get numbers up you have no cutting. The private clubs are not beholden to the WIAA either that does give them some flexibility in programming. I am just saying school programs would benefit themselves by working with not against these clubs. 12 weights will do nothing to increase the numbers or interest in wrestling. Coaches will still FF for the dual win and there very few coaches that work together to improve the sport as whole. Many work to improve themselves or thier program. There are few that work for the sport the one that comes to mind is Arneson he is an exception not the rule. But 12 weights means less FF but like I said it does zero to improve the numbers. Kinda like shorts and drift shirts. I will be really surprized to see overall numbers increase because of that one thing. Yet folks say it will and that's is ridiculous. 12 weights for other reasons makes more sense than improving numbers.

Honestly I don't think its the school coaches job to work with the private coach. The private coach is the one who is getting paid thousands of dollars to help make the school's kids better. It seems like you think it is the schools fault.

No I do not think it is anyone's" fault". I think the collaboration can help. Take G's example big school cuts the program the wrestler has some options. Open enroll or Club. Anytime you have interest during and in the off season you will have numbers.

Clubs may be different animals but not as much as GYP thinks not all wrestlers are National level talent and not all Ckub kids or HS kids strive for that level. If clubs and HS coaches work together it cannot hurt that's for sure. There are some HS coaches that detest Clubs. Not sure why and it does not make sense as they have allot to offer.

Yes coaches can recruit kids but peer recruitment is far more effective. Parent recruitment is also helpful. One of the best recruitment tools is success and accomplishment.

Most School programs do not have the luxury of developmental practice and drilling because they are short and kids MUST wrestle many of them before they are ready. Summer training at club can get them measured development before they are thrown to the wolves. Just like top tier youth programs do.

Quote from: getyourpoints on May 30, 2017, 08:48:33 AM
Club and school are two completely different animals.
IMO Clubs compete on the National level, taking kids to USA Nationals, Virginia Duals, Super 32 ext. If we want to judge them it's compared to other clubs (in and out of state).
I think that's a different thread "how do our privet clubs compare to other out of state clubs".

Agreed. Yes there are lots of benefits to clubs, but you don't need a club to have a good program. I also don't see one way that a club helps get more kids out for wrestling.

Peer recruiting versitility of training not limited to wrestling.

Don't want to demean your position and I guess I'm more curious than anything.

What clubs do Ellsworth, L-C, Stoughton, Strat and the like have? I don't think Rapids had a club when they were thumpin'.

Quote from: bigG on June 01, 2017, 06:13:32 AM
Don't want to demean your position and I guess I'm more curious than anything.

What clubs do Ellsworth, L-C, Stoughton, Strat and the like have? I don't think Rapids had a club when they were thumpin'.

World Gold, Combat, Advanced, X-factor, Aviators and I'm sure I'm missing some

I know Benitz and Peterson trained at World Gold with Dennis Hall and the Einersons trained at Advanced when they were at Lodi.  The Ellsworth kids used to go to Victory.  I believe some of the northwest kids also go to Pinnacle.

Good stuff. I know in my area, even though Central is looking rough, most of our very best are LAW.

I just don't know where this notion comes from that HS coaches dislike clubs. My goodness, what a blessing.

How much has the wrestling improved in that area since Askren opened AWA? Just my personal opinion, but it seems like like it has AWA has made a tremendous impact. I think World Gold has had a similar impact in the central part of the state.

Ryan Taylor is opening a club?! I loved watching him. I bet he'd be a fun dude to learn from.

Quote from: Ghetto on June 01, 2017, 08:30:54 AM
Ryan Taylor is opening a club?! I loved watching him. I bet he'd be a fun dude to learn from.

Sign me up for that club! Full tilt, aggressive style! I also loved his slide by those were nasty!!
Again no one is saying clubs don't do anything. They make experienced wrestlers better no doubt, but they don't pull in brand new kids to the sport. If we are trying to fill all the weight classes we need to get new kids out for the sport and get them exposed to wrestling.

Quote from: wrastle63 on June 01, 2017, 08:37:39 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on June 01, 2017, 08:30:54 AM
Ryan Taylor is opening a club?! I loved watching him. I bet he'd be a fun dude to learn from.

Sign me up for that club! Full tilt, aggressive style! I also loved his slide by those were nasty!!
Again no one is saying clubs don't do anything. They make experienced wrestlers better no doubt, but they don't pull in brand new kids to the sport. If we are trying to fill all the weight classes we need to get new kids out for the sport and get them exposed to wrestling.

AWA has a little ninjas program where they work on athleticism and tumbling more than wrestling. I wish I could have encouraged my son to try that. He would have loved it. Overall though I agree that clubs really aren't catered to the youngest kids, and probably shouldn't be if we are concerned with numbers. They might build more hammers though.

I think that's a great checklist. I'm not sure I'd add anything to it.

Quote from: getyourpoints on June 01, 2017, 09:53:43 AM
We should look at private clubs and school/local programs completely different, and with different measuring standards.

Thoughts on how to measure a schools success
Public schools
A big youth club with tons of parent involvement
A real MS program with a dual team roster
Putting 9-15 freshman in your Varsity room a year
A strong wrestling club with solid fund raising
Great social communication
Full roster
Attendance at dual meets, innovative and fun
Summer programs and camps
How many academic all state wrestlers you produce a year
Creating leaders
No off the Mat issues (drugs or criminal crap)

How to Measure Private clubs
Facility's
Coaches back ground
How many state champs at the Youth, MS and HS level each year.
How many kids participate at Fargo type events
How many All Americans they have each year
How many college wrestlers come out of the program
How many college AA
I know there are a lot of kids that go to private clubs just to become better and hopefully make varsity some day and I love and respect those kids in the room but that's very hard to measure.

We are all saying to make wrestling strong in WI we need to increase numbers and produce more high level wrestlers. I see the two goals as one in the same but the effort is equally divided between Public and Private. We need to do much better in both lanes IMO, the WWF needs to unite the state to create a solution.
   

Fantastic post!!!

One other aspect is when the local University and the club collaborate and you have college wrestlers in those rooms it makes a a huge difference. Do the private clubs offer strength and training? That's another good measure it shows diversity and caters to all around athletics and improvement.

I also disagree Clubs do recruit and they do bring new wrestlers in Crass also does some very simular things with younger wrestlers building a base with fun activities and games. There are some coaches that e,brace the aspect of strong private clubs and those programs are in the future and upward.

I couldn't name a coach that doesn't/wouldn't embrace such a thing. Like red herring-ish to me. With the sport as it sits right now, it looks like wrestling is going the way of the European model. Clubs, clubs, clubs. Love to keep it in schools, too; but that might not align with the trend as well. LaX Central is a perfect example. Great "stud" feeder club. A couple great wrestlers there; but not the numbers. The powerhouses that exist right now, save for Fennimore, have had pretty impressive success since before clubs. Strat wasn't as tough as now; but were very well established.

Quote from: bigG on June 02, 2017, 06:49:18 AM
I couldn't name a coach that doesn't/wouldn't embrace such a thing. Like red herring-ish to me. With the sport as it sits right now, it looks like wrestling is going the way of the European model. Clubs, clubs, clubs. Love to keep it in schools, too; but that might not align with the trend as well. LaX Central is a perfect example. Great "stud" feeder club. A couple great wrestlers there; but not the numbers. The powerhouses that exist right now, save for Fennimore, have had pretty impressive success since before clubs. Strat wasn't as tough as now; but were very well established.

G on one hand you try sell us on the fact clubs help then you try and down play there involvement with the sentence. I can assure you many of the wrestlers in those successful rooms participate in clubs hence their continued commitment and success. The programs you describe are incredible yet even they are getting some help from open enrollment.

It is not as rare as you think and I am not going to publically call out some of these high schools coaches but they exist.

Listen many sports if not all at some point may be heavily supported by private club endevors but School a districts and Coaches should embrace and be part of that trend. Like I said many things in business and ours lives need re-invention to keep up with changes in society and politics and health and education.

I look at organizations like th WWF and even the WIAA and thy are run but some aging individuals what they knew and what may have been successful for them before, may not be what can or should be successful today. But some refuse to adjust and adapt. Some even refuse to get the inappropriate term3 out of the way and allow the sport to develope. Take the singlet I was stubborn about that but then opened my mind up and talked with the kids and the wrestlers even at college level they convinced me it is no big deal and it's worth the try.

Bottom line is thre are many coaches in this state who despise Clubs and say they will ruin wrestling that is not the case and those HS coaches better embrace the coming change or they will not have a program.

The programs you were referring to have great thing in common;  SUCCESS

Quote from: ramjet on June 02, 2017, 08:29:53 AM

Quote from: bigG on June 02, 2017, 06:49:18 AM
I couldn't name a coach that doesn't/wouldn't embrace such a thing. Like red herring-ish to me. With the sport as it sits right now, it looks like wrestling is going the way of the European model. Clubs, clubs, clubs. Love to keep it in schools, too; but that might not align with the trend as well. LaX Central is a perfect example. Great "stud" feeder club. A couple great wrestlers there; but not the numbers. The powerhouses that exist right now, save for Fennimore, have had pretty impressive success since before clubs. Strat wasn't as tough as now; but were very well established.

G on one hand you try sell us on the fact clubs help then you try and down play there involvement with the sentence. I can assure you many of the wrestlers in those successful rooms participate in clubs hence their continued commitment and success. The programs you describe are incredible yet even they are getting some help from open enrollment.

It is not as rare as you think and I am not going to publically call out some of these high schools coaches but they exist.

Listen many sports if not all at some point may be heavily supported by private club endevors but School a districts and Coaches should embrace and be part of that trend. Like I said many things in business and ours lives need re-invention to keep up with changes in society and politics and health and education.

I look at organizations like th WWF and even the WIAA and thy are run but some aging individuals what they knew and what may have been successful for them before, may not be what can or should be successful today. But some refuse to adjust and adapt. Some even refuse to get the inappropriate term out of the way and allow the sport to develope. Take the singlet I was stubborn about that but then opened my mind up and talked with the kids and the wrestlers even at college level they convinced me it is no big deal and it's worth the try.

Bottom line is thre are many coaches in this state who despise Clubs and say they will ruin wrestling that is not the case and those HS coaches better embrace the coming change or they will not have a program.

The programs you were referring to have great thing in common;  SUCCESS

Clubs have a great impact, but this is funny! How many wrestlers can afford to go to a club and spend thousands? There are many wrestlers who can't but can compete for their school team. You do realize that there are many great wrestlers who have never stepped foot in a club.

I do but also realize the cost is not as much as you think and many Clubs if not all do a
lot of charitable work based on ability to pay or by doing one night a week for the local school or youth clubs.

Yes there have been many great wrestlers without clubs and you are missing my point. Schools especially smaller ones have to choose to use available funds for acedemics and that is a priority not too many folks can argue that. So the clubs offer an outlet too work with limited funding and shift that burden to the club or parents. Many clubs will work with large groups at a discounted rate allowing those kids to get exposure to excellent training and technique that they may not otherwise get through schools. Clubs will in many cases work with underprivileged kids to some degree without high fees. Maybe limited as part of the larger groups but they do it more often than you know and do advertise it for many reasons.

I am saying things are changing for the good of the sport we should embrace and work together with those private entities to help develop and continue our great sport. Wrestling is NOT the only sport going this way either. Tennis has done this for years. Football and baseball for years. 

A these entities are businesses and frankly thier survival is based on being innovative and supplying a quality product. Think about what I said here and think about how that applies to the sport and a HS room for example. HS has limited funds and limited pay for coaches and EVERY coach on knows they DO NOT DO IT FOR THE MONEY. Thier time and resources are limited. The club on the other hand is not limited it can grow with demand and add resources as the demand increases they can grow thier wellness and fitness offerings along with technique and funding is only limited be demand and that is directly related to the quality of the products offered and the size of the market.

The only limitations to the club are in who they can accept and stay afloat. I'm sure some take on hardship cases , when they see the talent is there; but the middle of the road kid generally won't have the dedication (nor the money if his folks are working class) for clubs; so I think we'll see that three sport athlete out the wrestling door as we go Euro. I think that's where the shrinking numbers will take place, and have.
You're right , Ram. School money must have academics first; but the lower middle class kid who won't have the club money won't be in wrestling for long. Not saying it's a great or awful thing but a reality.

Not just hardship and not just the talented hardship cases either. Again I have seen several top tier clubs take on anyone and everyone that wants to work hard and succeed. Group discounts and working with some schools to make it more affordable as group. I have seen one very famous wrestling guy allow kids to come into that room and if they have trouble paying workout for free. I have seen another exchange lessons for yard work etc.. You will surprized at the good will and work they do with the less than privelaged and local youth programs gratis. Sure pay to play exists it has too. I have herd of Track clubs getting some traction so to speak. Talk about low overhead. In the end you cannot buy success in wrestling without commitment, dedication, work ethic , good instruction and really good partners.

Not trying to sell anything , Ram. Saying clubs can be a great thing; but they will also reduce numbers of the Joe Average kid in the sport, IMHO. Not just the money to get into a club; but the driving for poor rural kids can be tough. Usually you have to rely on those two or three parents to transport kids. Meals and hotels are pout of the question for most of these folks so clubs won't work. Similar problems to when I was in the city.

I just want you all to know that everyone agreeing with me that we should go to 12 weights is heartwarming. 😘😘

Quote from: Ghetto on June 03, 2017, 10:53:45 AM
I just want you all to know that everyone agreeing with me that we should go to 12 weights is heartwarming. 😘😘

Heck let's just go to 8 right away so the team that only have 7 kids will look like a closer dual....reducing the sport for those who don't produce is always a great way to build the sport.   ::)

I am sorry but no club takes on anyone without money. They can to survive. To thing that anyone with talent can go to a club is a joke. There has to be money from somewhere.

Quote from: woody53 on June 03, 2017, 12:27:49 PM
I am sorry but no club takes on anyone without money. They can to survive. To thing that anyone with talent can go to a club is a joke. There has to be money from somewhere.

Sorry Woody...you are wrong.  Most of the elite clubs have members who otherwise could not afford it.  They don't openly advertise it for 2 reasons.  1) they don't want everyone asking or expecting it and 2) they don't want people to know who it may be.

I know of clubs where parents and sometimes the wrestlers themselves takes on tasks of the club to help out instead of payment. 

I am sure it is an NCAA violation for a high school kids who is seeking admission to an NCAA school to take free lessons from any club.  So this can be a slippery slope.  I have heard of certain clubs going after some of Wisconsins better wrestlers to get them in the room and not charging them.  This could be a huge mistake for the wrestler to accept this

There are also nice youth clubs which are partially publicly funded. Get the kids some mat time and there ya go.

Our biggest hurdle is dealing with work hours. My kids need to make $. Many to keep a family afloat. LAW runs a clean program, though, in my experience. Good folks.

Quote from: aarons23 on June 03, 2017, 12:14:30 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on June 03, 2017, 10:53:45 AM
I just want you all to know that everyone agreeing with me that we should go to 12 weights is heartwarming. 😘😘

Heck let's just go to 8 right away so the team that only have 7 kids will look like a closer dual....reducing the sport for those who don't produce is always a great way to build the sport.   ::)

You have absolutely no sense of humor. Lighten up a bit. It was a joke.

Quote from: Ghetto on June 04, 2017, 02:05:57 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on June 03, 2017, 12:14:30 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on June 03, 2017, 10:53:45 AM
I just want you all to know that everyone agreeing with me that we should go to 12 weights is heartwarming. 😘😘

Heck let's just go to 8 right away so the team that only have 7 kids will look like a closer dual....reducing the sport for those who don't produce is always a great way to build the sport.   ::)

You have absolutely no sense of humor. Lighten up a bit. It was a joke.

Believe me...I laugh every time you bring it up. ;D

Scoffin' and laughin' are two different things. ;)

*  Camps or clubs may charge or not charge an athlete.  It is up to their discretion.    I cannot find any language in the WIAA Bulletin that states otherwise.   
      High-level athletes across the country are not charged camp fees to attend a school or camp. 

*   Why would we discourage kids from attending a school or camp?   As coaches, we should be encouraging our kids to become better and those that do not have the ability or proximity to go to a camp or school may still go into the school's weight room 3-4 times per week in order to gain the strength needed to lessen the beating. JK.           This is being said about athletes that love the sport, love putting the time in, and we are not concerned about them over-working or burning out. 

*  Weight classes.......it is a problem and sometimes the first fix may not be the final solution, it may need a revision and some work but we need to make some changes in that direction or we are going to lose the sport in many districts.   Schools and communities need to have representative dual teams or administrators will look at our sport to cut.   There are some great ideas out there but again we need to make some bold choices and move forward.   Standing pat in any business is not the right answer.   I understand change is uncomfortable but it is necessary for growth.   

Duals are the fun part of the sport for kids.  Especially for the less talented that contribute with a hard fought match and lessen the points given up.   How many state team duals are won as a kid stays off of his back or doesn't give up the pin due to his/her desire and will?  The kids celebrate him as much as the state champ that nails down a pin.   

Sorry for the length but I wanted to summarize several points that I had read on the thread.  Thanks to all of you that care so much for Wisconsin Wrestling.

And if mr. Brandvold's suggestions are acceptable, I know of lots of hay bales to be thrown and calf pens pitched!

Jimmy????

You guys can read into anything, amazing! I was just looking for some help.

You do bring up a good point. The old school farm kids were successful because they were tough. There are some left but they don't have time for off season opportunities usually because they are throwing bales, milking, etc. Most dairy kids these days have strong wrists from steering the skidsteer. That's about it. Obesity is becoming an issue for farm kids because they work so little (physically) and suck down one Sundrop after the next in the machine they're driving. Old school they just had to be wrestling season wrestlers. These days it is a year-round sport for the elites, so those old school  farm kids will not be elites. Got work to do; and can't afford the trips all over. I know of one or two; but that's about it. Our more serious farm kids did send their kids to LAW for some upper level training at a young age.

Some smaller ones are bailing after baling.

Pork producers are hurtin'. Poultry is movin' in.

Big ones won't bail; joy stick farmers. Still, a tough business.