I have been lurking here for a long time reading posts and decided to throw my hat in the ring and will probably get lit up pretty good but here goes. Lately there has been alot of talk about what is causing the decline of high school wrestling in our state. Everybody has an idea and is sure what the problem is. I started coaching youth wrestling when my boy was just a tiny little baby and is now in first grade. That first year was a real eye opener for me. I couldn't believe how many dad's were screaming at there kids. But when you talk to the dad's they say that all they care about is mat time and it's good for him to get his butt kicked. I know not all were (are) like that but alot are. Now my boy has been wrestling for the club for 3 years now I took him to his first tournament last Saturday. It was over 2 hrs away but this tournament had a no compete class for prek-2nd grade and I wanted to compare the overall experience of the kids competing and also wanted my boys first tournament to be about him trying his best and using the technique that he has been practicing instead of worrrying about losing. Let me tell you I saw only 1 kid cry the whole day! And he was in the competitive kindergarten class and was getting throttled by a little guy that was a stud and his dad just kept pushing him back out there even though the kid hated it. Now do you think that kid is going to love the sport of wrestling and continue to enjoy it or just quit? Looking at that tournament there was like 350 +- kids there but most of the clubs that had kids there had to coop with another town for a high school team. We must be doing something wrong if a wrestling club can have 40 kids in a youth tournament but can't get 14 on a high school team. And if the key ingredient is "mat time" then why don't we try to get more of the no compete for the little guys to get hooked and love it instead of being about winning a state championship in 3rd grade? If these kids have a bad experience at a very young age they will never try it again and we just lost another potential high school wrestler. These kids have plenty of time in middle school and high school to worry about winning. I believe that youth competition is killing our sport and we as adults are not willing to do anything about it. Sorry for being so long winded. So let the debate begin.
Quote from: Buzz1979 on February 18, 2014, 01:29:44 PM
I believe that youth competition is killing our sport
I believe this is entirely true for all sports but it just happens that we start competitions at a much younger age in wrestling than other sports do and it is even harder because it is an individual sport and a sport that allows parents to be directly part of the competition by being on the mat.
As far as I know no other sport leaves our town for competition until 3rd grade. Before that there might be some fun leagues/games where kids are playing with and against their friends and the rules have been modified to focus on fun and skill development. I think wrestling might be the only sport that keeps score prior to 3rd grade.
Kids play for the fun of it especially at that age. Horsing around and wrestling around with a buddy is fun but often the competition is not. Competition is for the parents.
Competition is for the parents.
[/quote]
+1 I couldn't agree with this more.
I think this is a great post and I applaude you for putting it out there. Our k-4 program is tumbling, games and some wrestling mixxed in, empasis on fun and no or very litttle competiion. There is a post up right now discussing headlocks. Why are you even showing that in k-4 practice. These kids can barely control their own bodies and we are trying to get them to go out and control another wrestler. Sorrry but its stupid, this is not the only thing hurting wrestling but I beleive it is a huge part. My 2cents.
Great post, Buzz! I have a seventh grade wrestler who is doing middle school wrestling and is not doing any tournaments this year. My fourth grade wrestler decided to take the the year off. They still beat on each other on the mat in the basement, and the older one is going to his first technique camp this summer. I want them to WANT to wrestle in highs school not feel as though they must for me. You are right; it is definitely a problem when we see so many huge clubs feeding into a high school program struggling with numbers. If kids don't feel the pressure to win as little wrestlers, they will hopefully embrace the sport more and stick with it in high school. The other frustration is seeing kids use moves that we as coaches know will not work when the wrestler gets older. As that wrestler gets older and those moves no longer work, they become frustrated. It takes a whole lot longer to unlearn a bad habit than it does to teach a good habit on the mat!
That is so true about undoing bad habits. The thing that I really like with the no compete tournaments for the kids is that they are guarenteed 3 minutes per match! There are no quick pins where the most agressive kid wins everytime. They can concentrate on trying there shots, standups and riding. I know that my little guy had a great time! He even took a forehead to the bridge of the nose when he tried to shoot and still kept wrestling (after coming over to have mom make sure he was going to live. :D) If we can just keep it fun for them I certainly think it couldn't hurt!
I did a brief study while I was still our high school coach. Long story short, less than 10 percent of the kids that started in our youth wrestling program actually made it to me by their 9th grade year. Over 50 percent of the youth hung it up by the time they hit 3rd grade. This year we have 7 varsity wrestlers. :(
3 of my last 5 state qualifiers never wrestled a day before the 6th grade. 2 of them were medalists, one being a 3x qualifier and 2x place-winner.
I realize there are many "rights" and "wrongs". I'm just giving out some stats that I gathered.
So what is the solution?
1. Parents in the stands no matter what. Me included. This would not only be less pressure for the kids, but also our H.S. refs maybe some wouldn't hate reffing so bad and could become actual officials someday.
2. Non competitive K-2?
3. No headlocks K-4
These three things have been talked about adnausium on this and other wrestling boards across the nation. A heavy majority feel strongly that any or all of these changes should be made in an attempt to help keep our kids in our sport and draw new ones in. This has come out loud and clear by most H.S. coaches and even college coaches. A few tournaments here or there have done a few of them for a few years, but most didn't continue due to the complaining of a few loud parents.
How does the change begin? Where and with whom? It doesn't work if one town does it and the neighboring town doesn't.
I agree, pure madness every weekend!!!
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/676973-Top-5-dos-and-donts-for-parent-coaching (http://www.flowrestling.org/video/676973-Top-5-dos-and-donts-for-parent-coaching)
I like the idea of no competition k-2. But I see this as very difficult to because of parents wanting scores kept.
Great post. Go look at all the regionals last weekend. Very very few full brackets. A lot of 2 man brackets. I remember a few years back There was a kid who was really good. Talked to his dad once and he was telling me about how his older son was even better but when he was a freshman he up and quite. Dad says broke my heart. Then he precedes to tell me how he is driving his 10 yr old son 2 1/2 hrs one way 2 to 4 times a week to a wrestling school because the grade school he was going to "just didn't have what he needed" WTH! oh yea can't seem to find that kid on any track wrestling stuff anymore. Wonder why? I heard that USA hockey limits how much youth kids can do, because they were losing them as well. Not sure just something I heard.
As a parent of a high school senior, I will admit to creating a competitive nature in all my kids. that in itself is not bad but I feel at times I was giving my son the wrong impression in his early matches whether intentional or not. There came a time when I felt I might be losing him to the sport and not only backed off but told him he needed time off from time to time. I did this because I felt I had pushed him to the point that he was giving me the answer that he thought I wanted to hear. This was especially hard since I was also the coach for the local rec. program as well as X-Factor... His dad and coach.
From that point forward, he seemed to get more out of the sport and his love for the sport grew. Hind sight being 20-20, I would have done things different from the start. I strongly encourage parents not to worry about winning and losing but to evaluate their sons match and look for things they do correct and praise them. Also to teach what they did wrong but not really worry about the results of the match. All will be good in the long run.
Some observations I have noticed/learned.
1) I read somewhere that in Russia, their kids do not compete or even live wrestle more then 10 minutes per practice for the first 2 years!
2) The Kids Open in Illinois is one of the first tournaments to fill up each year in Illinois and there are no coaches or parents allowed matside. Only kids on the floor. Kids love it.
3) Parents are insane! No really, I have seen some things that would some people cry. I don't think its always intentional but WAY over the top anyway.
Maybe we even need to do away with the kids state tournament until 5th grade. I would not like it because I love to coach and watch that age group but I think we need to think outside the box. See what works in other states ala Pennsylvania, Ohio and Jersey as well as other countries and make some real changes for the good of the sport
Our number 1 goal I put in place for the Jr Ships Wrestling Team I started 2 years ago it to have the kids love wrestling. Of course we want them to learn and improve and win but all that will happen in good time if they love the sport.
Quote from: benaskren on February 18, 2014, 03:24:59 PM
I agree, pure madness every weekend!!!
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/676973-Top-5-dos-and-donts-for-parent-coaching (http://www.flowrestling.org/video/676973-Top-5-dos-and-donts-for-parent-coaching)
Great stuff Ben. Think I will bring up the idea of a "Parents Clinic" at Jr Ships tonight with the other coaches.
My son Started seriously competing in 8th grade. We tried a couple time before he was not emotionally ready for some of the seriousness of the competition. When he decided he wanted to wrestle he made the choice and asked us to support his choice. In 7th grade he had JrHigh football injury that kept him out or he made have the choice in 7th grade to wrestle. Now he really worked hard and took his lumps but he achieved allot in those 5 years but he really put in allot of time and hard work to get better. I actually think each person is different and some do better than others but where as many he competed against moved on to college they would not wrestle at that level saying they were burned out. That is not the case with my son he says he loves it and is having a great time in College and wrestling. I do wonder if too much too soon is an issue. Having that intensity for only 5 years he never "learned" to hate wrestling like some kids do. In fact things like the relaxed atmosphere of Greco and FS helped my son with his continued interest without burnout. I also think that aided in his success in those disciplines. In fact his continued interest was because of a Greco and FS the clubs we visited were great atmospheres and teams and practices although intense were not as demanding. One other thing not near the cutting weight like high school Folkstyle. You could tell my loved both he was very competitive and placed high his last two years. Liking it makes a huge difference getting better comes with liking it.
Yup to much to soon to intense will turn many away.
I feel that you can start kids younger but no real reason to have it be so intense that they feel it is more work than fun.
Kids have so much more to gravitate towards these days and much of it is easier and more fun than wrestling and in any sport you push to hard to soon for too long and they will burn out. Giving a kid some time off on occasion is a good thing. But the intensity level is the key.
Maybe not having tournaments for anyone younger than 5th or 6th grade would be helpful. Football is a competitive sport, but they don't start tackle until kids are a bit older. Maybe just doing takedown tournaments or something similar for younger kids. It's a tough sport. I don't know that kids are emotionally equipped to handle it at such a young age.
What is no compete wrestling?
Personally I think kids are born wrestlers. Just like some are drawn to hunting. They either like it or they don't and if they don't there's nothing you can do about it. Wrestling is a tough sport and its one on one. Some kids just don't have that kind of makeup. I was drawn to it like flies to stink. I had no wrestling history in my family. One day with no training at all I asked my dad to take me to a tournament and I was hooked. My boys hated it from day 1, and after 3 years of training, nothing serious, a family revolt won the day. The key is to introduce as many kids to wrestling as possible and the ones that are born to it, will love it for the rest of their lives.
I do agree that getting the knucklehead parents off the mat would make it more enjoyable for everyone.
And I thought I was the only one who thought this way.
I know of a few kids who like to wrestle around in practice but find the tournaments absolutely terrifying. I've seen a few younger kids winning their match and walking off before it was over because it was too loud and crazy. And I've had parents tell me that they only took their kid to one youth tourney and then never returned their child to one because they hated the way it was at matside. If no parents at matside was a rule at the tourney it could do a world of wonder for the kids' enjoyment.
Also, the no compete for younger kids is an excellent idea. I remember one of my boys going to a tourney as a six-year-old, getting thrown into a headlock and having to leave the mat after twenty seconds. Was he upset that he lost? Nope. He was upset that he only got to wrestle for a little bit. That son has walked away from wrestling in the last couple years, but he's a fifth grader. He may come back.
My other boy is a seventh grader who practices four nights a week with the junior high program and travels with the varsity. I get confused looks from some of the other wrestling dads when I say that he's not doing any additional tournaments or schools or classes this year. He doesn't want to. He's in football, band, forensics, wants to try golf this spring, and manages to usually get straight A's. He feels like his plate is full. So do I. Maybe that means he's not going to ever qualify for State, but I bet he wrestles all four years and likes it.
QuoteMaybe that means he's not going to ever qualify for State, but I bet he wrestles all four years and likes it.
Maybe or maybe not.......
Goals:
Qualifying and Making the State Tournament is the goal of many and that is admirable goal and accomplishment, as is placing in the State Greco or FS tournament is also a tremendous accomplishment in High School Wrestling
if it is not for your son then so be it. But what if he wants too? Then you should be willing to get him the extra work he needs right? The best time I had with my son was traveling to clubs and tournaments it was wonderful times and we have allot great memories. Met a wonderful and variety of good folks too. My son made friends with allot of young men that will last him a life time. People he may very well network with later in life the common thing they had was wrestling.
Jack of all Trades Master of none thing comes to mind when we also force kids to be involved in way to much and spread them thin. Laser focus is not for everyone but for those that want to why not? It comes down to the individual kid as mentioned above they can handle it or not but that being said lets not burn them out before they hit the 4th grade............That pressure generally is greater from parents than Coaches. My son and I had deal with losses: its not the loss we focus on its the two other things what did we do well and what can we do to improve? The loss who cares it happens for reason figure out the reason you win more.
Speaking in general here;
I see no reason to eliminate any of these competitions if you do not want to take your child then thats fine do not take them. But lets not get thinking like communists here there are kids not only love to compete they live for it they should not have that opportunity taken away because another kid is not capable of handling it. So it comes down to personal choice by the parents and the kids. In the same token if one kid is doing it and tears up your kid who is not competing do not complain or say "Well that not fair that kid goes to allot of tournaments or works really hard its just not fair." It is fair he is doing it maybe wait then when your child is capable of taking on the challenge can fast track the improvement and beat that kid later on......
Can we protect kids from themselves? I have seen many kids "tear it up" and work hard and dominate in 2nd and 3rd grade or younger and they are having a blast. But many of those don't wrestle later. Many have early success on aggressiveness and athleticism and early grasps of skills. Are we really harming their development but making them wait and building the anticipation? Do things get less fun later because matches get harder and less success? Do things get less fun because trophies and medals no longer mean anything? Is it less fun because they have been there done that and now try something else?
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 18, 2014, 08:55:54 PM
Can we protect kids from themselves? I have seen many kids "tear it up" and work hard and dominate in 2nd and 3rd grade or younger and they are having a blast. But many of those don't wrestle later. Many have early success on aggressiveness and athleticism and early grasps of skills. Are we really harming their development but making them wait and building the anticipation? Do things get less fun later because matches get harder and less success? Do things get less fun because trophies and medals no longer mean anything? Is it less fun because they have been there done that and now try something else?
You would have to take a case by case basis I to know why they chose to do something else..anything else other than first hand information is speculation. Maybe we are too free with the medals stuff heck you get medal for going to the rest room! Why in the heck do they need a medal for participating maybe that is the issue it comes to easy. Building anticipation? Heck maybe they get bored and do so etching else anyways. To think the way you are suggesting you have to believe that wrestling is bad thing? Heck many young men will tell you differently. Not all the kids will stay with anything the kids and young folks now a days change all the time it is our culture to be impatient and feel entitled that's why we have to give medals to everyone to satisfy that desire. Look at longevity on jobs not what it used to be that's for.
Kids are going to quit being educated on how to make things fun and challenge them without discouraging is tough task these days and you cannot and will not please everyone. Keep it safe , keep it interesting, and give the opportunity to everyone.
Think about those games and things you did as kid and what was fun? Heck for me it was the pickup games with little organization and with competition emulating the great stars of the time while playing along with the neighbor kids. Weather you were first or last kid chosen for the team you wanted win and wanted to play and to contribute. You looked forward to sunny days to get outside and exact revenge if you were on the loosing team and to defend that win if in that position. So how do get that with wrestling program?
You sure as heck will not accomplish anything with restriction and regulation let the individual make the choice that means the parents. As a parent you have the control of who,where and when.
YOUTH THOUGHTS--The way it is right now 95% of youth tourneys are the same thing. They are a round-robin with scores and pins and a crush of adults surrounding the mat. I don't know that anyone is advocating eliminating that type of tourney. Maybe some are, but it was not my intent, and it's certainly not going to happen anyway.
What I would like to see is more variety in the types of tourneys offered for young kids. No parents matside would be a good thing for many kids and their families. No compete brackets for younger kids who just want to wrestle their full three minutes would also be a good thing for many kids. If someone is pinned, restart them.
Of course every tournament shouldn't be that way. There should be regular competition for those who choose it. I have no problem with youth State tourneys and the whole works. I have come on this forum and stated that I don't think that wrestling schools hurt the sport, and that the kids who prosper by them are just reaping the rewards of their hard work. Same is true of kids who wrestle all summer.
JR HI and HIGH SCHOOL--As a parent of a kid who participates in many activities and gets good grades, I find it a little funny sometimes that the parents of some of his band camp buddies find it every bit as odd that he doesn't get private lessons and attends only one camp during the summer as the wrestling parents find it odd that he doesn't go to the schools and camps and summer freestyle. Simply put, there is nothing wrong with pursuing a variety of activities at a less intense level when you're a pre-teen or teenage kid. If you would have asked me at age twelve or even seventeen which was more important to me, football or drama, I would have told you football. At twenty, I would have told you drama. Now, in the tail-end of my forties I coach football and direct drama. If I hadn't explored both in school, a big part of my life would be missing.
ramjet, being "a jack of all trades, master of none" isn't a very good thing to be as an adult. But for a high school kid it seems pretty normal and healthy to me. Honestly, our generation likes to grump about "kids these days," but then we sometimes drive them away from being the same kids we were. The majority of our generation did a little weight training and running in the summer, and we probably played a lot of pick-up basketball and baseball or softball. Maybe we went to football camp for a week. It's really okay to let our kids choose that if they want to. It's just as okay to support them if they want to do something more intense. Quite a few of our generation turned out alright, you know. And the rest went into politics.
It was clear, Tews. I understood everything you were trying to say.
While I think their is waaay too much mat craziness going on at the youth tournaments much depends on the youth coach. Don't allow it!!! Our club tells parents from the beginning that screaming matside is not the way to go and that we should allow kids to have as much fun as possible which isn't easy in such a brutal sport. I also wish I could keep 100 percent of kids but know that it is not possible....but I am trying to make the competitive part of the sport as a learning experience from week to week...trying to show that good technique will prevail in the end. This is not always easy with the headhunters out there but I think we are doing pretty well teaching kids that only lasts so long.
That being said our high school team has 11 starters that started by the 1st grade and some upper weights that came in later. We have had success and I know you can't be a top team with kids that start their frosh year as starters....maybe good for numbers but many times they are not able to learn what they need to until at least their junior year....so its a catch 22.
Quote from: stbird on February 18, 2014, 07:25:59 PM
What is no compete wrestling?
It is where the kids just wrestle. No score is kept, and if a kid goes to his back instead of calling a pin they start both up again and continue to wrestle. No pressure on the kids to win. Just do there best and have fun. I really like the fact that they were all guaranteed to get a 3 minute match. Some really good insight, and posts here guys. I really think there is an elephant in the room with our sport and though the answer isn't cut and dried we need to try to do something!
trying to show that good technique will prevail in the end. [/quote]
The problem is with the little guys good technique doesn't prevail. The stronger/more aggresive kid wins EVERYTIME. When they get a little bit older then yes technique does take over but not in the really young kids.
A lot of great thoughts on this thread. I read this post recently and I think it fits well with this topic. http://www.handsfreemama.com/2012/04/16/six-words-you-should-say-today/
Actually that couldn't be farther from the truth tews. I only let my son wrestle 1 tournament this year and it's his first one that he ever wrestled. And it was a no compete...So If I was just focusing on wins/losses don't you think I'd be the dad that's dragging him all over every weekend to get him some "mat time?" Obviously I was mistaken about technique "never" working at a very young age but it is definately the exception not the rule.
Quote from: Buzz1979 on February 19, 2014, 08:36:20 AM
Actually that couldn't be farther from the truth tews. I only let my son wrestle 1 tournament this year and it's his first one that he ever wrestled. And it was a no compete...So If I was just focusing on wins/losses don't you think I'd be the dad that's dragging him all over every weekend to get him some "mat time?" Obviously I was mistaken about technique "never" working at a very young age but it is definately the exception not the rule.
That's OK to lose. If you have decent technique you will get your share of victories. In this sport you need to learn how to lose...it makes kids work a bit harder and pays off in the end. If a club creates an atmosphere that a loss on a Sunday is OK and part of each kid's personal growth and parents are on board with it things do get better.
Quote from: padre on February 19, 2014, 08:44:01 AM
Quote from: Buzz1979 on February 19, 2014, 08:36:20 AM
Actually that couldn't be farther from the truth tews. I only let my son wrestle 1 tournament this year and it's his first one that he ever wrestled. And it was a no compete...So If I was just focusing on wins/losses don't you think I'd be the dad that's dragging him all over every weekend to get him some "mat time?" Obviously I was mistaken about technique "never" working at a very young age but it is definately the exception not the rule.
That's OK to lose. If you have decent technique you will get your share of victories. In this sport you need to learn how to lose...it makes kids work a bit harder and pays off in the end. If a club creates an atmosphere that a loss on a Sunday is OK and part of each kid's personal growth and parents are on board with it things do get better.
I understand and agree that losing is as big of if not bigger part of wrestling than winning. I think that you learn from losing probably more than winning. That's where I'm torn on this issue a little bit because I believe kids DO need to learn how to lose but what does a kid get out of a quick pin (on either side of it?) In the no compete (for little guys) the match is stopped and they still get there mat time after the quick pin. It's a win/win for both guys.
I haven't been to a no tears in years....but several years ago I took my oldest and would never do it again. I saw more kids crying from getting pinned ten times in one match. Not sure that's any better.
My response was " I just like to see you guys wrestle"
Enjoy the sport for the good and bad.
[/quote]
No worries Tews. That is exactly how I wish everyone looked at it. I just want these kids to get everything that I got out of this great sport and I hate seeing these schools struggle to get a team and every year more and more coops and lots of them still can't field a full team. There are definately some things that could be changed for the better of our sport and honest conversations like this are a start.
QuoteThat being said our high school team has 11 starters that started by the 1st grade and some upper weights that came in later. We have had success and I know you can't be a top team with kids that start their frosh year as starters....maybe good for numbers but many times they are not able to learn what they need to until at least their junior year....so its a catch 22.
Outstanding youth program is key to successful High School Program. It would be nice to wrestle only Jr Varsity and I wonder if programs with on JV wrestlers should indeed keep them out of varsity and put them on the mat in Jr Varsity matches. For example program A 10 kids 7 of them are Freshman and Sophmores do you hold them out of Varsity and only wrestle them in Jr Varsity tournaments and then you go forward to Varsity matches wit the 4 wrestlers left over?
But we are talking about individuals and nobody is more an expert about their child than their parents. They may also be the ones putting the pressure on them as well. Do not be afraid to keep your kids out if they cannot handle it emotionally then interest them later when they can handle the pressure of wrestling.
I have seen many more tears in No-Tears tournaments than a regular tournament. Imagine getting pinned over and over isn't good for anyone.
So your kid gets pinned over and over at a "no tears" tournament and your blaming the tourney? Maybe they are not ready to wrestle. Doesnt sound like much fun to me.
Little kids crying makes me laugh ... I love to go to the "All Tears" Tournaments
If your kid starts to cry, the parents have to call them a baby and threaten to not love them. After all, kids were invented to make you look better ... not worse!
Quote from: Big House on February 19, 2014, 12:14:06 PM
Little kids crying makes me laugh ... I love to go to the "All Tears" Tournaments
If your kid starts to cry, the parents have to call them a baby and threaten to not love them. After all, kids were invented to make you look better ... not worse!
LOL The thing that makes this funny is the number of dad's/coach's that actually do that. I heard a dad call his pre-kindergartener a wimp and just walk away from him disgusted when the kid was scared to go out on the mat for his first match at a tournament. The dad was a state champ and I guess that he expected the same amount of success out of his 4 year old all-star. I couldn't imagine being a non-wrestling parent and walking into a youth tournament with my kid and wanting to subject him to that kind of chaos!
The idea of kids getting pinned again and again is definitely a reality that needs to faced, when it comes to "no tears" formats. That's why I prefer the takedown tournament option. Even if you make a certain number of takedowns a "tech-fall," kids will still get more wrestling time and it is less emotionally stressful. Even high school kids can enjoy the opportunity to focus on technique and try new things, without the risk of a sudden loss due to being pinned. I've run one of these for middle school kids before, when we had a lot of inexperienced wrestlers. I was amazed at how much they learned and how relaxed all of the participants were. I've also seen high school kids involved in these, off-season, with similar results. Obviously, it's not meant to replace all conventional tournaments, but it does offer a nice change of pace for top kids and a way for inexperienced kids to learn and have fun.
I don't think anyone can not see wrestling numbers going down at a rate that is concerning. Padre is right, put a kid out on the mat as a freshman for the first time, pretty tough to get any high level success out of him. So maybe this post should be asking the "successful wrestlers parents" what they did right. How about Alex Derringer, Jake Suflon, or Jessie Theilke. Ask them how they did it. I bet they weren't the screaming parent at the side of the mat.
Quote from: Big House on February 19, 2014, 12:14:06 PM
Little kids crying makes me laugh ... I love to go to the "All Tears" Tournaments
If your kid starts to cry, the parents have to call them a baby and threaten to not love them. After all, kids were invented to make you look better ... not worse!
Lol see I am starting to get it House thats is hilarious............... ;D
You forgot they need to look at them and say; "You make me sick your not even trying out there!" :o
Quote from: handsandtoes on February 19, 2014, 03:31:06 PM
I don't think anyone can not see wrestling numbers going down at a rate that is concerning. Padre is right, put a kid out on the mat as a freshman for the first time, pretty tough to get any high level success out of him. So maybe this post should be asking the "successful wrestlers parents" what they did right. How about Alex Derringer, Jake Suflon, or Jessie Theilke. Ask them how they did it. I bet they weren't the screaming parent at the side of the mat.
Some kids just have "it" and love the sport from the start and nothing should be held against them but that is probably 10% of wrestlers. Our system seems to cater to those wrestlers rather than the other 90%. Theose 10% want to wrestle every weekend, the other 90% in high school would probably like a few more weekends off.
Those 10% are not the problem. The problem is the parents of lets say another 50% of the kids that want their kids to be in that 10% but they do not have the talent nor the drive and they push and yell and suck the fun out if t for the athlete. And with those made up percentages you have another 40% that are doing thinngs the right way
You can not compare AD, JT and Jake to 99% of the wrestlers out there. That is one of the problems....to many parents are trying to replicate those three.
Yep, too many parents try to engineer their kids into being national champs, instead of supporting them in learning good skills and having an age-appropriate experience. Same thing is happening in other sports. As a nation, we are doing this to our kids academically, too. Driving your kids to perform adult-level skills, even if they aren't developmentally ready, is the best way to discourage them. However, you do get to brag about how good your kid is and take a lot of the credit for his/her accomplishments, so that's cool. Apparently, it's the American way!
Quote from: imnofish on February 19, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
Yep, too many parents try to engineer their kids into being national champs, instead of supporting them in learning good skills and having an age-appropriate experience. Same thing is happening in other sports. As a nation, we are doing this to our kids academically, too. Driving your kids to perform adult-level skills, even if they aren't developmentally ready, is the best way to discourage them. However, you do get to brag about how good your kid is and take a lot of the credit for his/her accomplishments, so that's cool. Apparently, it's the American way!
Yup Fish you are correct we should just not put any goals out there for them let them just do what they want and not give any expectations....because kids will meet expectations-high-low or in between. ::)
Individual Parents will make those decision not have some body like you making it for them.
Now take your Politics over to the political side of the forum. This is wrestling.
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:07:36 AM
Individual Parents will make those decision not have some body like you making it for them.
An intelligent parent might be able to listen to both sides of an argument, research the best options, and make the best decision for their child. The sad idiot parent who never felt successful is just gonna tell his kids what to do cuz he's the parent!
I tell you what buddy ... enjoy being alone when you're old ...
Quote from: aarons23 on February 19, 2014, 05:13:25 PM
You can not compare AD, JT and Jake to 99% of the wrestlers out there. That is one of the problems....to many parents are trying to replicate those three.
Plus 1 million!
I disagree with the original post! My son lost every match he wrestled his first 2 years. I never pushed him to keep wrestling. As a Junior he is a very talented wrestler. Last month I asked him why he stayed with the sport? His answer surprised me! Because of the fun games we played after practice dad! What an answer huh! Youth wrestling programs mold our kids into what they are today! I believe a lot of how they turn out is how the parents handle it too!
Quote from: aarons23 on February 19, 2014, 05:13:25 PM
You can not compare AD, JT and Jake to 99% of the wrestlers out there. That is one of the problems....to many parents are trying to replicate those three.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. These 3 are not the 1%, they are the .0001%. Trying to replicate their success will prove to be impossible for most.
Wrestling matches are extremly personal & the defeat is much different than losing as the member of a team. My Sons could lose a baseball game & still focus on what they did well & never took the losses personally. You can't do that in wrestling. You're the winner or the loser & they know that. No young children like to lose & while statements such as "they need to learn to lose" make good rhetoric, that won't happen until the brain matures. Watch any young child play a video game; what happens when they get behind? Restart baby! We are putting the majority of these kids in a high pressure situation long before they are mentally ready to handle it, & why? Because they won't be the next Jessie if we don't.
Quote from: Big House on February 20, 2014, 11:13:19 AM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:07:36 AM
Individual Parents will make those decision not have some body like you making it for them.
An intelligent parent might be able to listen to both sides of an argument, research the best options, and make the best decision for their child. The sad idiot parent who never felt successful is just gonna tell his kids what to do cuz he's the parent!
I tell you what buddy ... enjoy being alone when you're old ...
First off I am not your buddy, second off you have no idea what you are talking about, go back to your sarcastic posts they make far more sense to you than anyone else and judging from the number you post I would say you are the lonely one ........................ dude.
The essence of the debate is where the value/emphasis should (does) lie with respect to the process or the outcome. A complete emphasis on the process would suggest that the value for the kids comes from positive participation in learning to wrestle, being part of a team, etc. In that context, winning is irrelevant - a kid could experience all of the great benefits that wrestling has to offer through his/her participation. At the extreme, the alternative outcome-based focus suggests that the value is derived from winning; the process is irrelevant with respect to rewarding the kid for his/her participation. But those perspectives are the extremes and most parents likely hold a perspective somewhere in between.
The issue being discussed might really be one of the "proper" parental attitude and the goals the parent ultimately wants for his/her child. By the nature of our culture and values, we tend to place a great deal of emphasis on winning, e.g. "We're number 1!" Believe it or not, many other cultures aren't driven by this need to be recognized as being king of the hill - it is not universally human nature to have this deep need to win - it is our culture. Young kids are immersed in this cultural bias and it becomes ingrained in them; if they don't win they feel as though they have failed - nothing else mattered except the outcome. While kids have a difficult time placing the youthful athletic experience into a proper perspective, parents have no such excuse. Parents should have a broader understanding as to what is going on and the tremendous value mere participation might have for the kid.
What happens with parents who some of us think have their priorities mixed up is that they will openly acknowledge that they too understand the value of mere participation; that winning isn't everything; that they "get it." But then they turn around and heap tremendous praise and glory on the kids that win and allow "mere" participants to stand quietly, unacknowledged, in the shadows - because they didn't win. And that is where they have their disconnect in their head. They don't see that getting all excited about a kid winning sends the wrong signal to the kid. The kid cues off that behavior and similarly begins to think that winning is the only measure of success and value; that earnest participation has no value - only winning counts. Those parents of whom I speak will argue that they do in fact understand the value of participation, but the problem is that they don't practice what they preach; they get over-hyped with respect to the outcomes, e.g. the end of the season tournament series.
They would be sending a better message to their kids if they dampened their excitement when their kids win and offer more praise for consistent and earnest participation; praise for hard work and helping other teammates; sacrificing for the team, etc. And those parents will say they do...but they will also be the same ones jumping around in the stands practically peeing in their pants if their kid wins state. The kid would be well served if the parent's praise were more evenly distributed across the spectrum of opportunities to offer praise.
Wrestling is sport nothing more nothing less a high school sport.......................................end of story. Small portion of anyones life.................very small.
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
Wrestling is sport nothing more nothing less a high school sport.......................................end of story. Small portion of anyones life.................very small.
And yet, here we old farts sit, carrying on various discussions, debates, friendships, and cat fights that wouldn't otherwise have happened if we hadn't participated (most of us) in that "insignificant" endeavor oh so many years ago. Maybe the insignificant thing was how well we did on the mats at the time.
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:07:36 AM
Quote from: imnofish on February 19, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
Yep, too many parents try to engineer their kids into being national champs, instead of supporting them in learning good skills and having an age-appropriate experience. Same thing is happening in other sports. As a nation, we are doing this to our kids academically, too. Driving your kids to perform adult-level skills, even if they aren't developmentally ready, is the best way to discourage them. However, you do get to brag about how good your kid is and take a lot of the credit for his/her accomplishments, so that's cool. Apparently, it's the American way!
Yup Fish you are correct we should just not put any goals out there for them let them just do what they want and not give any expectations....because kids will meet expectations-high-low or in between. ::)
Individual Parents will make those decision not have some body like you making it for them.
Now take your Politics over to the political side of the forum. This is wrestling.
Wow! Nice tone. So impressed to know that I am not welcome to discuss wrestling on a wrestling forum. FYI, no politics were mentioned or intended. Just pointing out that our society has become so focused on high goals that we are getting the cart before the horse and pushing kids into many situations before they are developmentally ready. Of course kids need to learn how to set and work toward goals, but those goals and their pursuit need to be age-appropriate, if kids are to get the maximum benefit from them. As mentioned by others on here, adults often fall into the trap of setting goals that are more consistent with adult readiness than with child developmental stages. Stating that truth is not the same as taking the choice away from parents. To the contrary, as a parent, I was open to any information/perspectives that I might consider for the benefit of my children. They don't come with instruction manuals, remember?
Goals are great but they need to be realistic.
Too many parents have a goal of a college scholarship which is unrealistic for 99%. In other sports the dream is to make the pros.
I got in trouble with a few parents at our end of the year 8U baseball team banquet and basically siad we had fun and we will continue to focus on that and skill development because "nobody is going to make the pros here". Parents stated I crushed their dreams.
People need to be honest with their kids and honest with themselves. I coach numerous sports and I still get the question, "what does my son have to do to get a scholarship" when they are asking about camps and such. I simply tell them then they should focus more on academics and go to an academic camp.
Too many parents share more passion and time on a child's sports rather than their academics and that is sad.
Quote from: imnofish on February 20, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:07:36 AM
Quote from: imnofish on February 19, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
Yep, too many parents try to engineer their kids into being national champs, instead of supporting them in learning good skills and having an age-appropriate experience. Same thing is happening in other sports. As a nation, we are doing this to our kids academically, too. Driving your kids to perform adult-level skills, even if they aren't developmentally ready, is the best way to discourage them. However, you do get to brag about how good your kid is and take a lot of the credit for his/her accomplishments, so that's cool. Apparently, it's the American way!
Yup Fish you are correct we should just not put any goals out there for them let them just do what they want and not give any expectations....because kids will meet expectations-high-low or in between. ::)
Individual Parents will make those decision not have some body like you making it for them.
Now take your Politics over to the political side of the forum. This is wrestling.
Wow! Nice tone. So impressed to know that I am not welcome to discuss wrestling on a wrestling forum. FYI, no politics were mentioned or intended. Just pointing out that our society has become so focused on high goals that we are getting the cart before the horse and pushing kids into many situations before they are developmentally ready. Of course kids need to learn how to set and work toward goals, but those goals and their pursuit need to be age-appropriate, if kids are to get the maximum benefit from them. As mentioned by others on here, adults often fall into the trap of setting goals that are more consistent with adult readiness than with child developmental stages. Stating that truth is not the same as taking the choice away from parents. To the contrary, as a parent, I was open to any information/perspectives that I might consider for the benefit of my children. They don't come with instruction manuals, remember?
Oh you can determine tome from a post? Wow interesting to say the least.
"Yup Fish you are correct we should just not put any goals out there for them let them just do what they want and not give any expectations....because kids will meet expectations-high-low or in between. Roll Eyes
Individual Parents will make those decision not have some body like you making it for them.
Now take your Politics over to the political side of the forum. This is wrestling."
Your tone is easily read from this post.
Quote from: npope on February 20, 2014, 01:16:29 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
Wrestling is sport nothing more nothing less a high school sport.......................................end of story. Small portion of anyones life.................very small.
And yet, here we old farts sit, carrying on various discussions, debates, friendships, and cat fights that wouldn't otherwise have happened if we hadn't participated (most of us) in that "insignificant" endeavor oh so many years ago. Maybe the insignificant thing was how well we did on the mats at the time.
I am just saying some of you wan this to be the be all of parenting and it is only part of it.
Heck unless I completely mis-inteperated your post you are saying parents get too excited with kids success?
I say whats wrong with that if your child has success you should be excited especially if they worked their tail off to accomplish a goal.
I would never tell another parent how to deal with their children because the relationship may be such that I do not know how they relate to each other or their family dynamic. As long as I do not see physical or mental abuse its not my place. Physical or mental abuse that is different set of rules altogether. But heck what does make the sport at any level interesting? How each individual reacts and acts under similar circumstances.
What makes life so interesting is the differences in people.
I know a father/coach that people would just get so mad at because he was demanding and yelled mat side. Heck I was even lulled into thinking he was a mean SOB then one day I struck a conversation with him and his kids and got to know them. Nothing abusive or even mean about the guy it was the family dynamic in fact the kids gave it back to dad just as much as he gave it ti them and they did with smile and they respected him for the motivation and help he provided. In fact the guy would give any kid the shirt off his back on -20 degree day. On the outside without knowing the details it was interesting now I see them I just chuckle because I know the more about them and dynamic of their family.
So when i say its just wrestling I mean it is not the place where you learn to raise your kids that is done every night around the table at dinner or before or after church sure its catalyst and provides some common ground but there is so much more.
I laugh not many people ask the kids what they think? After all if its about them why not ask them they are brutally honest and will tell you if you ask the right question.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 02:57:08 PM
Goals are great but they need to be realistic.
Too many parents have a goal of a college scholarship which is unrealistic for 99%. In other sports the dream is to make the pros.
I got in trouble with a few parents at our end of the year 8U baseball team banquet and basically siad we had fun and we will continue to focus on that and skill development because "nobody is going to make the pros here". Parents stated I crushed their dreams.
People need to be honest with their kids and honest with themselves. I coach numerous sports and I still get the question, "what does my son have to do to get a scholarship" when they are asking about camps and such. I simply tell them then they should focus more on academics and go to an academic camp.
Too many parents share more passion and time on a child's sports rather than their academics and that is sad.
Great post! Personally, I think the most appropriate goals for all wrestlers must include continual skills improvement, having fun, being a good team member, being a good sport, learning how to lead, and (eventually) learning how to set and pursue their own goals. Notice how the goal setting is suggested as the wrestler's responsibility, rather than that of the parent.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 02:57:08 PM
Goals are great but they need to be realistic.
Too many parents have a goal of a college scholarship which is unrealistic for 99%. In other sports the dream is to make the pros.
I got in trouble with a few parents at our end of the year 8U baseball team banquet and basically siad we had fun and we will continue to focus on that and skill development because "nobody is going to make the pros here". Parents stated I crushed their dreams.
People need to be honest with their kids and honest with themselves. I coach numerous sports and I still get the question, "what does my son have to do to get a scholarship" when they are asking about camps and such. I simply tell them then they should focus more on academics and go to an academic camp.
Too many parents share more passion and time on a child's sports rather than their academics and that is sad.
So, do you think sports is the reason these parents put something else ahead of academics?
Every survey ever taken of youth thats asks the question "why do you play sports?" has the same #1 answer.
TO HAVE FUN!
Winning is way down on the list. Some parents like to justify it and say winning IS more fun. Not necessarily to kids in youth sports.
Ever been to a game or wrestling match and as a coach or parent you are still thinking about the game 15 minutes after it is over or something even still bothers you on the way home. Sure you have because you are an adult and our warped minds want to win and we feel like we should have done more. But don't equate or transfer that to our youth. Almost an absolute majority of kids have forgotten about winning or losing and are on to the next thing 5 minutes afterwards. I will say that in wrestling, losing seems to affect kids a little longer than team sports because of the pressure of one one competition and the innate sense of losing a physical battle.
A child is on to something else and really could care less of whether they won or lost earlier in the day and yet parents will keep taling about it and bringing up this and that and the referree did this and that and if this and if that. A youth athlete is done with it.
Enjoy the process, focus on fun and skill development, and let the competitions be fun and when they are done they are done. Nothing can be changed. If you are a coach, you simply make some mental notes and figure out some fun ways to work on things in practice
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 03:38:27 PM
So, do you think sports is the reason these parents put something else ahead of academics?
Not sure quite what you are asking but parents surely spend a lot more of their time focused on sports activities than they do their academic activities. Think of the time spent between parents and their kids when they are in a youth sport. Lot more time spent on sports vs. academics.
That is fine too because the kids have school and teachers but all that ectra time should be focused on having fun in a relaxed atmosphere. A lot of parents think of these times as "training sessions" rather than fun time.
This is why playing in the back yard with neighborhood kids has been replaced by formal sports and leagues and practices.
This is why some of these club and rec activities are no longer good enough and now we have wrestling schools and travel associations, etc
I am not saying I am against all this because I have done all the things I am saying may not be the best in the long run and I have pushed my kids. We just need to all recognize what we are doing and what its affects are. All this is leading to fewer athletes in ALL high school sports.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 03:38:27 PM
So, do you think sports is the reason these parents put something else ahead of academics?
Not sure quite what you are asking but parents surely spend a lot more of their time focused on sports activities than they do their academic activities. Think of the time spent between parents and their kids when they are in a youth sport. Lot more time spent on sports vs. academics.
That is fine too because the kids have school and teachers but all that ectra time should be focused on having fun in a relaxed atmosphere. A lot of parents think of these times as "training sessions" rather than fun time.
This is why playing in the back yard with neighborhood kids has been replaced by formal sports and leagues and practices.
This is why some of these club and rec activities are no longer good enough and now we have wrestling schools and travel associations, etc
I am not saying I am against all this because I have done all the things I am saying may not be the best in the long run and I have pushed my kids. We just need to all recognize what we are doing and what its affects are. All this is leading to fewer athletes in ALL high school sports.
So school work and academics can be FUN for kids......?
I am not disagreeing with you but that is very broad statement. I hope what you are saying is balance is key?
After all they are in school to learn but there are those who may not come to school if they didn't have sports or eligibility requirements.
Parents........well all different priorities and I am not sure if they spent the same amount of time on academics they do with sports away from school that you may not have revolt on your hands. :o
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 03:47:48 PM
Every survey ever taken of youth thats asks the question "why do you play sports?" has the same #1 answer.
TO HAVE FUN!
Winning is way down on the list. Some parents like to justify it and say winning IS more fun. Not necessarily to kids in youth sports.
Ever been to a game or wrestling match and as a coach or parent you are still thinking about the game 15 minutes after it is over or something even still bothers you on the way home. Sure you have because you are an adult and our warped minds want to win and we feel like we should have done more. But don't equate or transfer that to our youth. Almost an absolute majority of kids have forgotten about winning or losing and are on to the next thing 5 minutes afterwards. I will say that in wrestling, losing seems to affect kids a little longer than team sports because of the pressure of one one competition and the innate sense of losing a physical battle.
A child is on to something else and really could care less of whether they won or lost earlier in the day and yet parents will keep taling about it and bringing up this and that and the referree did this and that and if this and if that. A youth athlete is done with it.
Enjoy the process, focus on fun and skill development, and let the competitions be fun and when they are done they are done. Nothing can be changed. If you are a coach, you simply make some mental notes and figure out some fun ways to work on things in practice
Let's put a caveat on that thought, Doc. Young kids look for fun, but older kids, e.g. high school age, are looking to be the "alpha male" more often than not. Nature vs. nurture? I am not sure. But by the time they are in high school, our wrestlers are acutely aware of the emphasis placed on winning (over having fun). If I had prized fun over winning when in high school I would have never spent four years at the same weight; dehydrated and miserable just to have the chance of winning the "big one."
Suppose we were able to instill at a young age the notion of having fun being more important than winning; I suspect our sports culture might look more like something that Australia has - sports are fun but...they are just sports. Could we accept that? Should we accept that?
Personally, I like that attitude, but could America tolerate going to the Olympics and bringing back only 15 medals? So what if we don't lead the medal count? What does it really matter, except to those of us who somehow feel superior to other nations just because we can collect more medals at an event like the Olympics?
Phil Schannen-now there is a name I have not heard in a long, long, time. Hope he sees this thread and offers up some enlightening insight.
Quote from: Pheasant 1984 on February 20, 2014, 11:50:36 AM
I disagree with the original post! My son lost every match he wrestled his first 2 years. I never pushed him to keep wrestling. As a Junior he is a very talented wrestler. Last month I asked him why he stayed with the sport? His answer surprised me! Because of the fun games we played after practice dad! What an answer huh! Youth wrestling programs mold our kids into what they are today! I believe a lot of how they turn out is how the parents handle it too!
Yes, that is how I and my son approached it. Love the sport if you are having fun.
Quote from: npope on February 20, 2014, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 03:47:48 PM
Every survey ever taken of youth thats asks the question "why do you play sports?" has the same #1 answer.
TO HAVE FUN!
Winning is way down on the list. Some parents like to justify it and say winning IS more fun. Not necessarily to kids in youth sports.
Ever been to a game or wrestling match and as a coach or parent you are still thinking about the game 15 minutes after it is over or something even still bothers you on the way home. Sure you have because you are an adult and our warped minds want to win and we feel like we should have done more. But don't equate or transfer that to our youth. Almost an absolute majority of kids have forgotten about winning or losing and are on to the next thing 5 minutes afterwards. I will say that in wrestling, losing seems to affect kids a little longer than team sports because of the pressure of one one competition and the innate sense of losing a physical battle.
A child is on to something else and really could care less of whether they won or lost earlier in the day and yet parents will keep taling about it and bringing up this and that and the referree did this and that and if this and if that. A youth athlete is done with it.
Enjoy the process, focus on fun and skill development, and let the competitions be fun and when they are done they are done. Nothing can be changed. If you are a coach, you simply make some mental notes and figure out some fun ways to work on things in practice
Let's put a caveat on that thought, Doc. Young kids look for fun, but older kids, e.g. high school age, are looking to be the "alpha male" more often than not. Nature vs. nurture? I am not sure. But by the time they are in high school, our wrestlers are acutely aware of the emphasis placed on winning (over having fun). If I had prized fun over winning when in high school I would have never spent four years at the same weight; dehydrated and miserable just to have the chance of winning the "big one."
Suppose we were able to instill at a young age the notion of having fun being more important than winning; I suspect our sports culture might look more like something that Australia has - sports are fun but...they are just sports. Could we accept that? Should we accept that?
Personally, I like that attitude, but could America tolerate going to the Olympics and bringing back only 15 medals? So what if we don't lead the medal count? What does it really matter, except to those of us who somehow feel superior to other nations just because we can collect more medals at an event like the Olympics?
I think you start them out young, with the focus on having fun. By the time they are old enough to start setting competitive goals, they are hooked on the sport and will find an element of fun in the process of pursuing those goals. We need kids to focus on fun, then winning, when it's developmentally appropriate. We'd have a lot less burnout, IMO.
This is an opinionated opinion.
I think parenting is the most important responsibility we have as a parent, and we get the least instructions on it. So we combine our knowledge with our spouses and do what we think is best, right or wrong. We may get information from a book but it's just someone elses opinion. So are the comments on this post. I think we should let our kids on their own once in a while. The parents today get their kids involved in something and feel they have to be at every event. I feel that kids have to learn to be independent and not expect their parents to be at everything they do. You are not going to be by them when they start college or their first job. So let them learn to be on their own sometimes.
Quote from: thequad on February 20, 2014, 06:13:34 PM
This is an opinionated opinion.
I think parenting is the most important responsibility we have as a parent, and we get the least instructions on it. So we combine our knowledge with our spouses and do what we think is best, right or wrong. We may get information from a book but it's just someone elses opinion. So are the comments on this post. I think we should let our kids on their own once in a while. The parents today get their kids involved in something and feel they have to be at every event. I feel that kids have to learn to be independent and not expect their parents to be at everything they do. You are not going to be by them when they start college or their first job. So let them learn to be on their own sometimes.
+1 Great point!
Quote from: nutritional value on February 20, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
A lot of very good comments have been made about keep the sport at a young age and I can not agree more. Here is a interesting article about the Russian system compared to the US and why they are so much better.
http://russianwrestling.net/node/35
"Here is a comparison of the Russian Wrestling System to the U.S. The Russian Wrestling System is built to develop World and Olympic champions. This is what kids want to be when they start wrestling. In Russia, most kids start at age 10-12 yrs. and have 2-4 tournaments per year. Kids do not usually cut weight. At cadette and junior age (14-16), athletes wrestle 4-8 tournaments per year and cut on average 4-8 lbs. a couple times per year. The majority of wrestlers do not burn out mentally or wear out physically when they reach senior level. In Russia, the average wrestling practices runs for 1 & 1/2 hrs. At the kids level, the system focuses to develop wrestling skills (flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.) and basic technique. Most of the practice time is spent playing and drilling. Live wrestling runs for about 5-10 min. per practice. At cadette and junior level, athletes develop more complicated technique and spend a lot of time in different wrestling situations and positions. They still do not spend a lot of time live wrestling. At the senior level, wrestlers polish their technique and tactic and focus on physical conditions. At all age levels, practices are short but high intensity." Wow! This is very different from our system, but their results have been exceptional. Thanks for posting this!
Quote from: imnofish on February 20, 2014, 07:03:07 PM
Quote from: nutritional value on February 20, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
A lot of very good comments have been made about keep the sport at a young age and I can not agree more. Here is a interesting article about the Russian system compared to the US and why they are so much better.
http://russianwrestling.net/node/35
"Here is a comparison of the Russian Wrestling System to the U.S. The Russian Wrestling System is built to develop World and Olympic champions. This is what kids want to be when they start wrestling. In Russia, most kids start at age 10-12 yrs. and have 2-4 tournaments per year. Kids do not usually cut weight. At cadette and junior age (14-16), athletes wrestle 4-8 tournaments per year and cut on average 4-8 lbs. a couple times per year. The majority of wrestlers do not burn out mentally or wear out physically when they reach senior level. In Russia, the average wrestling practices runs for 1 & 1/2 hrs. At the kids level, the system focuses to develop wrestling skills (flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.) and basic technique. Most of the practice time is spent playing and drilling. Live wrestling runs for about 5-10 min. per practice. At cadette and junior level, athletes develop more complicated technique and spend a lot of time in different wrestling situations and positions. They still do not spend a lot of time live wrestling. At the senior level, wrestlers polish their technique and tactic and focus on physical conditions. At all age levels, practices are short but high intensity." Wow! This is very different from our system, but their results have been exceptional. Thanks for posting this!
How many days a week, and how long thru the year do these different age groups practice?
Quote from: Quack on February 20, 2014, 07:18:08 PM
Quote from: imnofish on February 20, 2014, 07:03:07 PM
Quote from: nutritional value on February 20, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
A lot of very good comments have been made about keep the sport at a young age and I can not agree more. Here is a interesting article about the Russian system compared to the US and why they are so much better.
http://russianwrestling.net/node/35
"Here is a comparison of the Russian Wrestling System to the U.S. The Russian Wrestling System is built to develop World and Olympic champions. This is what kids want to be when they start wrestling. In Russia, most kids start at age 10-12 yrs. and have 2-4 tournaments per year. Kids do not usually cut weight. At cadette and junior age (14-16), athletes wrestle 4-8 tournaments per year and cut on average 4-8 lbs. a couple times per year. The majority of wrestlers do not burn out mentally or wear out physically when they reach senior level. In Russia, the average wrestling practices runs for 1 & 1/2 hrs. At the kids level, the system focuses to develop wrestling skills (flexibility, agility, coordination, etc.) and basic technique. Most of the practice time is spent playing and drilling. Live wrestling runs for about 5-10 min. per practice. At cadette and junior level, athletes develop more complicated technique and spend a lot of time in different wrestling situations and positions. They still do not spend a lot of time live wrestling. At the senior level, wrestlers polish their technique and tactic and focus on physical conditions. At all age levels, practices are short but high intensity." Wow! This is very different from our system, but their results have been exceptional. Thanks for posting this!
How many days a week, and how long thru the year do these different age groups practice?
Good question, which the article does not address. However, the end of the article deals with the mat time issue by detailing how their wrestlers are able to stay involved in the sport longer. Maybe that would involve more time spent on the mat, after wrestlers have matured???
You also have to realize that the kids don't have the same choices over there that we have here. So once they pick a sport, they normally focus on it, and stick with it.
Yeah, I'm sure there are many variables, as the article some of them. Still, it would be interesting to see if adopting some of those differences would bring improvement here.
Might have to look for some tougher kids to join up too. Kids that aren't into only being video game athletes, where you can just start over or kit reset.
Quote from: npope on February 20, 2014, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 03:47:48 PM
Every survey ever taken of youth thats asks the question "why do you play sports?" has the same #1 answer.
TO HAVE FUN!
Winning is way down on the list. Some parents like to justify it and say winning IS more fun. Not necessarily to kids in youth sports.
Ever been to a game or wrestling match and as a coach or parent you are still thinking about the game 15 minutes after it is over or something even still bothers you on the way home. Sure you have because you are an adult and our warped minds want to win and we feel like we should have done more. But don't equate or transfer that to our youth. Almost an absolute majority of kids have forgotten about winning or losing and are on to the next thing 5 minutes afterwards. I will say that in wrestling, losing seems to affect kids a little longer than team sports because of the pressure of one one competition and the innate sense of losing a physical battle.
A child is on to something else and really could care less of whether they won or lost earlier in the day and yet parents will keep taling about it and bringing up this and that and the referree did this and that and if this and if that. A youth athlete is done with it.
Enjoy the process, focus on fun and skill development, and let the competitions be fun and when they are done they are done. Nothing can be changed. If you are a coach, you simply make some mental notes and figure out some fun ways to work on things in practice
Let's put a caveat on that thought, Doc. Young kids look for fun, but older kids, e.g. high school age, are looking to be the "alpha male" more often than not. Nature vs. nurture? I am not sure. But by the time they are in high school, our wrestlers are acutely aware of the emphasis placed on winning (over having fun). If I had prized fun over winning when in high school I would have never spent four years at the same weight; dehydrated and miserable just to have the chance of winning the "big one."
Suppose we were able to instill at a young age the notion of having fun being more important than winning; I suspect our sports culture might look more like something that Australia has - sports are fun but...they are just sports. Could we accept that? Should we accept that?
Personally, I like that attitude, but could America tolerate going to the Olympics and bringing back only 15 medals? So what if we don't lead the medal count? What does it really matter, except to those of us who somehow feel superior to other nations just because we can collect more medals at an event like the Olympics?
Could a kid stand to go to weekend tournament and NOT get participation medal?
Listen the one thing that I see this thread may have brought to light more than any other is young adults even kids cause some do it is
cut weight this has to be the most unpleasant thing that we in the USA promote and teach. U till they do mat side weigh in this will never change. I think cutting or the perspective and desire to do so because you "feel more competitive" ruins this sport. It is tough and when you have to implement a 7% rule because wrestlers went to far this is an issue. The 7% rule is not the answer mat side weigh ins is and you want to know pressure just ask about weight cut.
By the way how many here parent based on the way they were raised? I mean opposite or just like their parents raised them?
We need to get rid of K-2 tournaments but it will never happen in less the WWF steps in or something because clubs make a lot of money off them at tournaments.
We need to get rid of trophies and medals for everything as they become meaningless and a big waste of everyone's money. Won't happen because everyone is trying to outdo others to make money and still plenty of parents chasing the trophies rather than the medals, etc.
We need a tiered system. We cannot treat JV's the exact same way we do 3rd graders except we take away all the awards. You need to build towards something.
While Russia may want world champions, the goal here has to be to have high school wrestlers or have high school success. Build towards that goal and not the goal of winning the local town tournament or a 3rd grade state championship. Coach to the end goal and not the near goal.
A very wise long time HS and D3 college wrestling coach once told me his recruiting strategy for college. Most every kid has about 8 years of wrestling in them thus many great HS wrestlers that started very young seldom wrestle in college or try it and quit. The key is to find the best HS wrestlers that started wrestling in HS or maybe middle school and they are more likely to put in the time and build towards college success.
I coach baseball and lead two 12U travel teams with 22 kids. I need to make it fun and develop them all because I will be lucky to get 10 to play high school ball as they find new interests, specialize in other sports, become ineligible, get jobs, or just become lazy. Parents laugh and don't believe me when I tell them that. Way to many youth stars out there that never even compete in High school.
I have learned new things that I apply to my younger kids and one is that coaching is more fun also if you focus on the fun, the development, and the process rather than winning. Their is always going to be a better wrestler out there or a better team. In life it makes no difference if you placed 3rd at state or got knocked out in regionals. This is a big weekend coming up for HS kids and 99% of the seniors will be long past whatever happens in the next 2 weeks by the time summer rolls around.
Quote from: nutritional value on February 20, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
A lot of very good comments have been made about keep the sport at a young age and I can not agree more. Here is a interesting article about the Russian system compared to the US and why they are so much better.
http://russianwrestling.net/node/35
This past year my 12-year-old traveled to Poland and competed in an international tournament with kids from several European countries (including Russia). Although I am no expert on Russia's youth wrestling, my personal observations of youth Russian and European wrestlers does slightly differ from the blog.
What I noticed is kids throughout Europe do compete... and they compete a lot. My son has made many friends on the trip and continues to communicate with them on Facebook (using Google translate). Judging by the pictures they post on their Facebook accounts, many of them compete much more than our kids do here and they travel much further for tournaments. Their tournaments have set weight brackets vs in the US where most of our youth tournaments do not do that to discourage weight cutting. Many of their kids train year around although their season of competing appears to be similar to ours in length. They do cut weight. We are planning to return to Europe for a Greco tournament in April. One wrestler from the Netherlands recently typed my son on Facebook saying he planned on cutting 7 - 9 pounds for the event (12 year old 90 pounder). At the Poland tournament the night before weigh ins I saw wrestlers from Russian the same age as my son layered in sweats running to make weight. I've seem many European countries have a youth wrestling website with a list of tournaments they can visit. In many ways I found the youth wrestlers to be very similar to ours.
Here's something I noticed different about their wrestlers vs. ours:
It seems like the majority of their kids (even some younger than 12) were dealing with some form of cauliflower ear. When they get injured (saw 3 kids suffer from broken arms while we were there) are much tougher than the average American kid. When we have an injury here, the mat is shut down until proper aid is provided. When a kid is injured there, they are removed from the mat as quickly as possible. When their kids lose, they don't cry like our kids do. At our youth national tournaments, our kids at times wear their emotions on their sleeves, their kids seemed to be much more composed, however they seemed to be equally disappointing in losing. The body language I observed from some of their kids (particularly the Russian and Ukrainian wrestlers) was almost like they felt shame when they lost. Overall the European coaches seemed tougher with their kids than the majority of coaches I've seen in the US. In my observation, it seemed like our kids were much more aggressive than theirs on the mat and theirs seemed a bit gassed by the 3rd round. I did notice at the younger ages they do focus on a lot of tumbling and gymnastics (like 10 and under).
When I read this discussion as to retention in wrestling, I wonder how the retention numbers in wrestling match those of other sports? Does any one have any hard numbers? How many kids play youth soccer and stick with it through high school? How many kids started with T-ball and stick with it to play baseball in high school? It would seem that more kids than not try at least one of these sports at one time in their childhood, yet by high school few stick with it. I would be very curious if anyone had any factual numbers to compare retention in wrestling vs. other sports.
I find it interesting that some people on this forum feel competition should be removed at the younger age levels. I can tell you this, if my son wasn't allowed to compete when he was younger, it is unlikely he would have interest in the sport today. Many of my son's best wrestling friends are the same way. I agree that competition is not for every kid who tries the sport, but to support the idea of removing that opportunity for the youngsters who are ready for it, does not seem logical.
Let's see if kids state means anything;
Can we draw parallels between success in the eight grade and high school?
2009 kids state 105 lb weight class qualifiers. 1994-1995 birth year bracket.
Austin Moe
Trevor Seewald
Tyler Rice
Eric Vesbach
Joshua Murray
Eli Rosado
Robert Rocole
Aaric Spencer
Colby Kasten
Kyle Mezera
Dalton Schuerman
Spencer Bruley
Alex Sadler
Alex Walla
Andrew Snider
Look at those young men tell me that success in youth wrestling does not impact success down the road.
Some of these more than others and some just had bad luck with injuries etc but all the names have good wrestling history in Folk Style and Greco and FS.
I would guess the trend follows this model more than the other way. What does this tell us? Nothing? Something? I bet there are some other very interesting brackets that really would get ones attention. There is some excellent data here if one had the time to analyz and compile it.
Quote from: knowgangs on February 20, 2014, 10:25:52 PM
Quote from: nutritional value on February 20, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
A lot of very good comments have been made about keep the sport at a young age and I can not agree more. Here is a interesting article about the Russian system compared to the US and why they are so much better.
http://russianwrestling.net/node/35
This past year my 12-year-old traveled to Poland and competed in an international tournament with kids from several European countries (including Russia). Although I am no expert on Russia's youth wrestling, my personal observations of youth Russian and European wrestlers does slightly differ from the blog.
What I noticed is kids throughout Europe do compete... and they compete a lot. My son has made many friends on the trip and continues to communicate with them on Facebook (using Google translate). Judging by the pictures they post on their Facebook accounts, many of them compete much more than our kids do here and they travel much further for tournaments. Their tournaments have set weight brackets vs in the US where most of our youth tournaments do not do that to discourage weight cutting. Many of their kids train year around although their season of competing appears to be similar to ours in length. They do cut weight. We are planning to return to Europe for a Greco tournament in April. One wrestler from the Netherlands recently typed my son on Facebook saying he planned on cutting 7 - 9 pounds for the event (12 year old 90 pounder). At the Poland tournament the night before weigh ins I saw wrestlers from Russian the same age as my son layered in sweats running to make weight. I've seem many European countries have a youth wrestling website with a list of tournaments they can visit. In many ways I found the youth wrestlers to be very similar to ours.
Here's something I noticed different about their wrestlers vs. ours:
It seems like the majority of their kids (even some younger than 12) were dealing with some form of cauliflower ear. When they get injured (saw 3 kids suffer from broken arms while we were there) are much tougher than the average American kid. When we have an injury here, the mat is shut down until proper aid is provided. When a kid is injured there, they are removed from the mat as quickly as possible. When their kids lose, they don't cry like our kids do. At our youth national tournaments, our kids at times wear their emotions on their sleeves, their kids seemed to be much more composed, however they seemed to be equally disappointing in losing. The body language I observed from some of their kids (particularly the Russian and Ukrainian wrestlers) was almost like they felt shame when they lost. Overall the European coaches seemed tougher with their kids than the majority of coaches I've seen in the US. In my observation, it seemed like our kids were much more aggressive than theirs on the mat and theirs seemed a bit gassed by the 3rd round. I did notice at the younger ages they do focus on a lot of tumbling and gymnastics (like 10 and under).
When I read this discussion as to retention in wrestling, I wonder how the retention numbers in wrestling match those of other sports? Does any one have any hard numbers? How many kids play youth soccer and stick with it through high school? How many kids started with T-ball and stick with it to play baseball in high school? It would seem that more kids than not try at least one of these sports at one time in their childhood, yet by high school few stick with it. I would be very curious if anyone had any factual numbers to compare retention in wrestling vs. other sports.
I find it interesting that some people on this forum feel competition should be removed at the younger age levels. I can tell you this, if my son wasn't allowed to compete when he was younger, it is unlikely he would have interest in the sport today. Many of my son's best wrestling friends are the same way. I agree that competition is not for every kid who tries the sport, but to support the idea of removing that opportunity for the youngsters who are ready for it, does not seem logical.
Excellent post thank you for sharing that experience.
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 10:32:37 PM
Quote from: knowgangs on February 20, 2014, 10:25:52 PM
Quote from: nutritional value on February 20, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
A lot of very good comments have been made about keep the sport at a young age and I can not agree more. Here is a interesting article about the Russian system compared to the US and why they are so much better.
http://russianwrestling.net/node/35
This past year my 12-year-old traveled to Poland and competed in an international tournament with kids from several European countries (including Russia). Although I am no expert on Russia's youth wrestling, my personal observations of youth Russian and European wrestlers does slightly differ from the blog.
What I noticed is kids throughout Europe do compete... and they compete a lot. My son has made many friends on the trip and continues to communicate with them on Facebook (using Google translate). Judging by the pictures they post on their Facebook accounts, many of them compete much more than our kids do here and they travel much further for tournaments. Their tournaments have set weight brackets vs in the US where most of our youth tournaments do not do that to discourage weight cutting. Many of their kids train year around although their season of competing appears to be similar to ours in length. They do cut weight. We are planning to return to Europe for a Greco tournament in April. One wrestler from the Netherlands recently typed my son on Facebook saying he planned on cutting 7 - 9 pounds for the event (12 year old 90 pounder). At the Poland tournament the night before weigh ins I saw wrestlers from Russian the same age as my son layered in sweats running to make weight. I've seem many European countries have a youth wrestling website with a list of tournaments they can visit. In many ways I found the youth wrestlers to be very similar to ours.
Here's something I noticed different about their wrestlers vs. ours:
It seems like the majority of their kids (even some younger than 12) were dealing with some form of cauliflower ear. When they get injured (saw 3 kids suffer from broken arms while we were there) are much tougher than the average American kid. When we have an injury here, the mat is shut down until proper aid is provided. When a kid is injured there, they are removed from the mat as quickly as possible. When their kids lose, they don't cry like our kids do. At our youth national tournaments, our kids at times wear their emotions on their sleeves, their kids seemed to be much more composed, however they seemed to be equally disappointing in losing. The body language I observed from some of their kids (particularly the Russian and Ukrainian wrestlers) was almost like they felt shame when they lost. Overall the European coaches seemed tougher with their kids than the majority of coaches I've seen in the US. In my observation, it seemed like our kids were much more aggressive than theirs on the mat and theirs seemed a bit gassed by the 3rd round. I did notice at the younger ages they do focus on a lot of tumbling and gymnastics (like 10 and under).
When I read this discussion as to retention in wrestling, I wonder how the retention numbers in wrestling match those of other sports? Does any one have any hard numbers? How many kids play youth soccer and stick with it through high school? How many kids started with T-ball and stick with it to play baseball in high school? It would seem that more kids than not try at least one of these sports at one time in their childhood, yet by high school few stick with it. I would be very curious if anyone had any factual numbers to compare retention in wrestling vs. other sports.
I find it interesting that some people on this forum feel competition should be removed at the younger age levels. I can tell you this, if my son wasn't allowed to compete when he was younger, it is unlikely he would have interest in the sport today. Many of my son's best wrestling friends are the same way. I agree that competition is not for every kid who tries the sport, but to support the idea of removing that opportunity for the youngsters who are ready for it, does not seem logical.
Excellent post thank you for sharing that experience.
Agreed. Always interesting to hear different perspectives and experiences. 8)
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:26:47 PM
Could a kid stand to go to weekend tournament and NOT get participation medal?
I understand your position and its implications, but the situation isn't as much about distributing participation ribbons to every little rug rat that happens to be in the gym that day as it is about tampering down the praise heaped upon those who win. It's about the adult keeping perspective so that the kid develops a healthier perspective; that it isn't about winning (plenty of time for that mentality to develop on its own in the kid's later years) but rather, participation and the process. Development of these latter attributes have broader and more enduring value for a kid than does a fixation on the outcome. There's room for both, but the current system showers the winners with glory, e.g. standing on the podium, pictures in the paper, and all the trappings that go with being a "winner."
So, my point is that we simply need to lessen the emphasis on winning (and losing) for kids (adults are a different story). I really don't think that would be under-cutting the moral fiber of our society - it might actually strengthen it.
Quote from: npope on February 21, 2014, 04:45:14 AM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:26:47 PM
Could a kid stand to go to weekend tournament and NOT get participation medal?
I understand your position and its implications, but the situation isn't as much about distributing participation ribbons to every little rug rat that happens to be in the gym that day as it is about tampering the praise heaped upon those who win. It's about the adult keeping perspective so that the kid develops a healthier perspective; that it isn't about winning (plenty of time for that mentality to develop on its own in the kid's later years) but rather, participation and the process. Development of these latter attributes have broader and more enduring value for a kid than does a fixation on the outcome. There's room for both, but the current system showers the winners with glory, e.g. standing on the podium, pictures in the paper, and all the trappings that go with being a "winner."
So, my point is that we simply need to lessen the emphasis on winning (and losing) for kids (adults are a different story). I really don't think that would be under-cutting the moral fiber of our society - it might actually strengthen it.
So my son wins an award for the highest MAP/WKCE math test score and they start a pilot with him and two others, how should I congratulate him? My son wins 3 trophies this weekend in Karate, how should I congratulate him?
Quote from: howavi on February 21, 2014, 06:27:06 AM
Quote from: npope on February 21, 2014, 04:45:14 AM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:26:47 PM
Could a kid stand to go to weekend tournament and NOT get participation medal?
I understand your position and its implications, but the situation isn't as much about distributing participation ribbons to every little rug rat that happens to be in the gym that day as it is about tampering the praise heaped upon those who win. It's about the adult keeping perspective so that the kid develops a healthier perspective; that it isn't about winning (plenty of time for that mentality to develop on its own in the kid's later years) but rather, participation and the process. Development of these latter attributes have broader and more enduring value for a kid than does a fixation on the outcome. There's room for both, but the current system showers the winners with glory, e.g. standing on the podium, pictures in the paper, and all the trappings that go with being a "winner."
So, my point is that we simply need to lessen the emphasis on winning (and losing) for kids (adults are a different story). I really don't think that would be under-cutting the moral fiber of our society - it might actually strengthen it.
So my son wins an award for the highest MAP/WKCE math test score and they start a pilot with him and two others, how should I congratulate him? My son wins 3 trophies this weekend in Karate, how should I congratulate him?
Your kid got an award for the MAP/WKCE? DJ has scored perfect on it twice now.
School not state.
My point is that my son puts in a lot of time practicing karate and virtually none with Math. Of course we emphasize the education award but I'm not going to minimize winning.
Secondarily the a karate is more like a trophy for being dressed. Huge trophy for 1st and pretty big trophies all the way to fourth. Many times 3 -6 in a group. Everyone gets a trophy even 6th. There are probably 200 kids in this club, maybe 10 in 7th grade or older. I know my son and friend will get their black belt in 6th grade and stop then.
Quote from: howavi on February 21, 2014, 06:27:06 AM
Quote from: npope on February 21, 2014, 04:45:14 AM
Quote from: ramjet on February 20, 2014, 08:26:47 PM
Could a kid stand to go to weekend tournament and NOT get participation medal?
I understand your position and its implications, but the situation isn't as much about distributing participation ribbons to every little rug rat that happens to be in the gym that day as it is about tampering the praise heaped upon those who win. It's about the adult keeping perspective so that the kid develops a healthier perspective; that it isn't about winning (plenty of time for that mentality to develop on its own in the kid's later years) but rather, participation and the process. Development of these latter attributes have broader and more enduring value for a kid than does a fixation on the outcome. There's room for both, but the current system showers the winners with glory, e.g. standing on the podium, pictures in the paper, and all the trappings that go with being a "winner."
So, my point is that we simply need to lessen the emphasis on winning (and losing) for kids (adults are a different story). I really don't think that would be under-cutting the moral fiber of our society - it might actually strengthen it.
So my son wins an award for the highest MAP/WKCE math test score and they start a pilot with him and two others, how should I congratulate him? My son wins 3 trophies this weekend in Karate, how should I congratulate him?
Praise him for the all of the hard work and perseverance it took to earn those awards - both of them. Don't (over) emphasize the issue of "winning." Winning isn't the parental goal (usually)- the development of the will to persist and face the challenge is what I suspect you really want to cultivate in your kid. Understand that goal and allocate praise accordingly...unless you indeed want it all to be about winning. In which case you heap massive praise upon the fact that junior has a certificate of achievement that indicates he is somehow better than others.
Did you see that list most of them are still wrestling and I suspect that if you research you will find youth wrestling has its benefits and not everyone is quitting and further more I think those who quit might quit anyways and it has little to do with singlets, parents,how tough wrestling is or any other single cause, that it is a combination of things that we or anyone has little control to change. Not saying structure and education are not good just saying some kids will quit thats them. I also do ton think this is some sort of trend that will end wresting either.
There are two good examples of good grades and families that emphasize academics here is third my son had GPA greater than 3.75 through out high school and wrestled ,golfed, football and off season wrestling all through high school. Most the kids with the exception of few kept good grades they had too or they could not wrestle.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 20, 2014, 09:03:21 PM
We need to get rid of K-2 tournaments but it will never happen in less the WWF steps in or something because clubs make a lot of money off them at tournaments.
We need to get rid of trophies and medals for everything as they become meaningless and a big waste of everyone's money. Won't happen because everyone is trying to outdo others to make money and still plenty of parents chasing the trophies rather than the medals, etc.
We need a tiered system. We cannot treat JV's the exact same way we do 3rd graders except we take away all the awards. You need to build towards something.
While Russia may want world champions, the goal here has to be to have high school wrestlers or have high school success. Build towards that goal and not the goal of winning the local town tournament or a 3rd grade state championship. Coach to the end goal and not the near goal.
A very wise long time HS and D3 college wrestling coach once told me his recruiting strategy for college. Most every kid has about 8 years of wrestling in them thus many great HS wrestlers that started very young seldom wrestle in college or try it and quit. The key is to find the best HS wrestlers that started wrestling in HS or maybe middle school and they are more likely to put in the time and build towards college success.
I coach baseball and lead two 12U travel teams with 22 kids. I need to make it fun and develop them all because I will be lucky to get 10 to play high school ball as they find new interests, specialize in other sports, become ineligible, get jobs, or just become lazy. Parents laugh and don't believe me when I tell them that. Way to many youth stars out there that never even compete in High school.
I have learned new things that I apply to my younger kids and one is that coaching is more fun also if you focus on the fun, the development, and the process rather than winning. Their is always going to be a better wrestler out there or a better team. In life it makes no difference if you placed 3rd at state or got knocked out in regionals. This is a big weekend coming up for HS kids and 99% of the seniors will be long past whatever happens in the next 2 weeks by the time summer rolls around.
I heard 10 years but I think we are on the same page.
With those years, how many are competitive is the real question. If they are practicing hard for 5 years with little or no tournments and then the last 5 with competition I think you might have a fresh and excited wrestler at those 5 years.
I personally dont like the prek-2 grade either but here is a thought, how about getting a kid in wrestling at that time and when they hit 3rd grade no tournaments until 6th grade. Just 3 years of hard practice with no medals and such.
Until high school, effort and devolpement needs to be the key words of choice not about what you won or lost.
Sometimes as stewards of wrestling we have to look out for the sport more so than just some individuals, a minority, or our own kids.
Starting early helps and there is no doubt with those wrestlers that can handle and love it from the beginning. They can be better in HS because of it. They may not want to wrestle in college but there is no doubt that a wrestler is going to have more success with the more time and effort he has put in whether it is years experience or number of practices or wrestling year round.
But sometimes we have to look at the greater good. I believe K-2 tournaments turn off more people than they turn on. I learned this first hand 15 years ago when I encouraged our K-2 to go to a tournament and get a trophy as a way to bring fun and excite them about the sport. What I say was kids not ready and parents in utter shock at what they saw at seeing their first ever wrestling tournament. It was a bigger detriment than it was a positive. No, the only people I tell that they might enjoy a K-2 tournament are parents that were wrestlers or know what to expect and maybe the kids are ready to handle it.
Does it an advanced 2nd grader to just wait until 3rd grade to actually compete? Pretty sure if he is practicing it is not going to stunt his development. If parents really want to push it they can wrestle them up in the 3rd grade division.
I I would like to see what percentage of the state qualifiers in the bottom two divisons actually wrestle in high school. What would be a fair percentage we could be happy with? I would hope the percentage for 7th/8th grade division would be much higher.
saw a post that said hockey is losing kids just like wrestling. Well lets see, In college guess who the wrestlers hung out with...Hockey Players. why? We go through many of the same things. We deal with injuries, we fight, we battle for every inch, we need to watch our diets. We are both reckless with our bodies within the sport. Bruises & taped joints are a badge of honor and expected.
I tell everyone who's kid doesn't want to wrestle. It take a special kind of person to want to get involved in something where smashing your face against another human being is considered normal. Bleeding is in the rules (Blood Time) I am pretty sure we are the only WIAA sport with that specifically named in it and the refs have a signal for it. - others address the care of or how to handle it and they say the kid can't play with blood on their uniform.
I've had wrestlers come back from Army and Marine Corps boot camps and say it was easy compared to wrestling. And the Moto for the Marines is "the Few, the Proud", Army is "Army Strong" -- Not everybody can be in the military, not everybody can be a wrestler.
As far as the K-2 conversation. I really believe the K and under should only be body control/tumbling if there is a practice at all and no tournaments.
To add to the conversation;
My neighbor just brought there 1st grade twins to practice this year. Now, The one wants to be a professional wrestler/fighter in the UFC the other says he doesn't really like it but, wants to be tough so he can be a good practice partner for his brother so he can be a professional wrestler/cage fighter. --- SO that is twins, one is now obsessed according to his mom she has to record the cage fighting and college wrestling and look it up on the internet if nothing is on so the one can watch it, the other one doesn't really like it at all and never watches it.
A moment in time....
Dad and 6th grade daughter in the room. Dad says he has been busy with daughter's hockey season. I ask daughter how the season is going. She says "good and bad". Before I say anything dad says "well the're in first place". She states "well that is good I guess but we have practice and games almost every night".
I guess that is the bad. Just struck me after this thread. My son's friends seem to be having a tough time transitioning to practicing more as they get to middle school. Is this the start of the reason why so many kids drop sports in middle school?
As parents should we push them as they are just being lazy or should we back off and just be happy that if we back off and they practice less they will participate in high school but not likely to be as successful.
When a parent asks me what they need to do to be a high school star I always say the first thing is to assure that they are actually playing the sport in high school.
I think if a kid enjoys a sport they should enjoy practice also. Practice is just learning the sport better.
Quote from: thequad on February 21, 2014, 04:10:16 PM
I think if a kid enjoys a sport they should enjoy practice also. Practice is just learning the sport better.
Cant tell you how many kids tell me that they just want to do the meets, and not the practices. The practices are boring. Why, because they are working on technique.
Heard this from youth, middle school, and high schoolers. Maybe that would be the best thing, let the kids choose if they want to do both or just the practices or just the meets.
I have a theory, no research here, that part of this is because we're a little more transient society than we used to be. People switch jobs more often and families move. In a town like Wabeno, our population used to feel like it was mainly made up of people whose parents and grandparents had lived in the area and gone to WHS. Now, there seems to be more people who are entirely new to the area, and their roots don't go as deep. Enthusiasm for the local teams and traditions isn't as far-spread throughout the local population as it used to be. Kids aren't brought to sporting events by alumni parents who want to watch the teams from the old alma mater. The sports don't feel as important to the kids then.
While I feel like there are things wrestling can do to keep from losing some of our kids, there are some things that stem from the society at large that we can't fix. I didn't wrestle until my sophomore year, and I really only did it because my friends and the coaches convinced me that my school needed me, and I could be a help. There was a sense of duty involved in my first going out for wrestling. That carried me through the nightly butt-kickings in practice and that long first four weeks of competition before a ref ever raised my arm after a match. Of course, it all ended with me loving the sport for the rest of my life, but were I new to the school and the community... I might never have tried it.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 21, 2014, 03:53:43 PM
A moment in time....
Dad and 6th grade daughter in the room. Dad says he has been busy with daughter's hockey season. I ask daughter how the season is going. She says "good and bad". Before I say anything dad says "well the're in first place". She states "well that is good I guess but we have practice and games almost every night".
I guess that is the bad. Just struck me after this thread. My son's friends seem to be having a tough time transitioning to practicing more as they get to middle school. Is this the start of the reason why so many kids drop sports in middle school?
As parents should we push them as they are just being lazy or should we back off and just be happy that if we back off and they practice less they will participate in high school but not likely to be as successful.
When a parent asks me what they need to do to be a high school star I always say the first thing is to assure that they are actually playing the sport in high school.
I love your last line in your post. While years back that wouldnt be thought of as a honest thing to say, now it is.
Hey all things said this is time to celebrate the success of those who have worked their tails off to make the State Tournament. It's time to clelebrate the journey and the effort. We can all sit here and "woes me"but it is time to give recognition to those who do not to those who don't.
"When I read this discussion as to retention in wrestling, I wonder how the retention numbers in wrestling match those of other sports? Does any one have any hard numbers? How many kids play youth soccer and stick with it through high school? How many kids started with T-ball and stick with it to play baseball in high school? It would seem that more kids than not try at least one of these sports at one time in their childhood, yet by high school few stick with it. I would be very curious if anyone had any factual numbers to compare retention in wrestling vs. other sports."
the numbers line up % wise about the same depending on the sport and number of participants. -- I know there was a study done. I don't have time to find it right now but, they were within a couple of points of each other. Football is the exception as far as being on the team, actually playing is a different matter.
In my opinion basketball and baseball are worse for the number of kids that start the sport in youth and actually get to be varsity players, at least in my town.
As far as filling a line up, we've talked about this on here many times. Basketball Needs 5 to play 10 plus is nice. Baseball needs 9, 13+ is nice. Football needs 11, 25 plus is nice but, 7man football is taking care of that.
NONE of these sports Require a kid to be 106lbs, 113lbs ect..... I look at Northeast Wisconsin and Most teams have close to or more than 20 kids on their rosters. But, many are forfeiting at least one spot in their varsity lineups at some point in the season. I can not think of any team that did not have to forfeit a spot during the season because of sickness or injury. I do believe even KK, BP and Coleman (all at team state) had to forfeit a weight class in a dual or tournament at least once this season because they did not have a back up in that class.
Heck I remember a football game where our three running backs all got injured, A line backer went and played running back, he needed a breather so a backup Offensive lineman stepped into the backfield to block on a couple of QB sweeps & passes. In wrestling you can't take your back up 220 and plug him in at 152 if he's sick.
The issue is out of the 560 kids at state, who doesn't deserve to be there? Who would you send home and say your entire weight class is terrible and has not earned the right to be here? Its about opportunity for the kids and honestly making money. Or else wrestling and all other sports would be a one class winner takes all state tournament.
Quote from: ramjet on February 21, 2014, 08:03:38 PM
Hey all things said this is time to celebrate the success of those who have worked their tails off to make the State Tournament. It's time to clelebrate the journey and the effort. We can all sit here and "woes me"but it is time to give recognition to those who do not to those who don't.
+1 Boom!
Quote from: Quack on February 21, 2014, 04:15:45 PM
Quote from: thequad on February 21, 2014, 04:10:16 PM
I think if a kid enjoys a sport they should enjoy practice also. Practice is just learning the sport better.
Cant tell you how many kids tell me that they just want to do the meets, and not the practices. The practices are boring. Why, because they are working on technique.
Heard this from youth, middle school, and high schoolers. Maybe that would be the best thing, let the kids choose if they want to do both or just the practices or just the meets.
I think that can be addressed, especially at the youth and middle school levels, by designing games designed to incorporate key skills and positions inherent in many techniques. I used to do this regularly with the middle school kids and they learned, drilled, conditioned, and had fun during those activities. To a lesser extent, this could be done to break up the monotony in high school practices, too.