Track Wrestling has archived the Fargo results for the past 6 years, so I wanted to see how WI stacked up compared to previous years and how we stack up to our neighbors. It was interesting to see that Wisconsin and our neighboring states basically have had the same score every year. So with that said I put the 6 year average together and ranked them in order.
Average score from 2010 - 2016
Junior
1. Illinois 59
2. Minnesota 39
3. Iowa 38
4. Michigan 28
5. Wisconsin 18
Cadet
1. Illinois 82
2. Iowa 31
3. Minnesota 31
4. Michigan 22
5. Wisconsin 16
I don't know what this really means other then what were doing currently is not catching us up to our neighbors, it has been same for years.
Not sure what this means, but I guess Illinois should be dominating the Big 10. Illinois should be a national contender year in and year out!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 24, 2016, 12:54:16 AM
It seems like Illinois has a similar problem as Wisconsin does in that none of there top recruits want to wrestle for there home university.
I don't know if your conclusion is necessarily accurate. The data says that the top in-state recruits for WI and IL don't end up at their respective home-state university; the data says nothing regarding whether they don't "want" to wrestle there. I know that it seems to be picking at a nuanced choice of words, but you are (deliberately?) painting a picture that suggests those two universities are somehow unpalatable to those in-state top tier wrestlers. Is it possible that the
top tier wrestlers (from any state) are highly sought after and thus, the best wrestlers can go to programs with stronger wrestling traditions, i.e., they have their choice among a handful of the very best programs in the nation and they merely choose a top tier program instead of a lesser program like the UW or IL? Maybe it has nothing to do with whether they "like or don't like" their home state institution but rather, everything to do with how much they like the school they end up choosing. Maybe the home state institution is number two on the list of all of those recruits (the data you present doesn't touch that issue). If so, that would merely suggest that WI and IL are more like the bride's maid and seldom the bride.
The original conclusion is valid. The University of Illinois should be better.
Illinois will have a very good 165 lbs guy this year who will be going for his third title.
And Marko Hunter had a very disappointing Fargo tournament. Is he a candidate for
another 4 time Wisconsin state champion who cannot succeed at Minnesota?
Minnesota definitely does not lack high school talent but Wisconsin's 14th place finish
at Fargo is now a trend.
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 24, 2016, 07:55:19 AM
npope,
You read into the statement way more then I intended it to mean, I tend to agree with your take on it. I was addressing the sarcasm that Illinois should be a power house based on national high school results. I am not a fan of Illinois youth and high school wrestling but it is hard to dispute that they have been one of the top 3 wrestling states in the nation for a long time.
Okay. I took it as a subtle attempt to get a "get rid of Barry thread" rolling again. Which would be fine IMO if that is what someone wants to talk about, but I just thought that if that were the goal, being more transparent about the intent would be more honest.
Sorry to jump the gun.
For sure Wisconsin needs to send a team to the national duals.
Combine the best cadets and Juniors and send one fully loaded junior freestyle team to the national duals.
Ohio did this exact thing a few years back when they had money issues. They just entered the junior freestyle division and
did very well. I know Wisconsin could send a competitive team to the national duals because we have done it before.
Make sure there are adequate backups to avoid ever having to forfeit. When Ohio sent their team, they did not even bring
any backups. Just one guy per weight to cut costs to a bare minimum. I find it hard to believe that we can not at least
send a few extra guys, but to not send a team is unacceptable if you want to prepare our guys for the level of competition
that is at fargo. 14th place is something we can improve on and if I was not a broken down old man, I would offer to lead the team.
Quote from: billymurphy on July 25, 2016, 01:29:00 AM
For sure Wisconsin needs to send a team to the national duals.
Combine the best cadets and Juniors and send one fully loaded junior freestyle team to the national duals.
Ohio did this exact thing a few years back when they had money issues. They just entered the junior freestyle division and
did very well. I know Wisconsin could send a competitive team to the national duals because we have done it before.
Make sure there are adequate backups to avoid ever having to forfeit. When Ohio sent their team, they did not even bring
any backups. Just one guy per weight to cut costs to a bare minimum. I find it hard to believe that we can not at least
send a few extra guys, but to not send a team is unacceptable if you want to prepare our guys for the level of competition
that is at fargo. 14th place is something we can improve on and if I was not a broken down old man, I would offer to lead the team.
We need to be sending all teams from schoolboy on up. With proper planning cost isnt an issue. Many states send 2 teams, Wisconsin shouldnt be any different.
In the cadet freestyle division there are 136 all Americans at Fargo. Of those 136 all Americans only 52 attended the cadet duals.
In the junior freestyle division there are 120 all Americans at Fargo. Of those 120 all Americans only 56 attended junior duals.
Quote from: billymurphy on July 24, 2016, 09:53:57 AM
The original conclusion is valid. The University of Illinois should be better.
Illinois will have a very good 165 lbs guy this year who will be going for his third title.
And Marko Hunter had a very disappointing Fargo tournament. Is he a candidate for
another 4 time Wisconsin state champion who cannot succeed at Minnesota?
Minnesota definitely does not lack high school talent but Wisconsin's 14th place finish
at Fargo is now a trend.
I think the list of 4 time state champs from any state that do not have success at any given college could be debated. I do not think it has anything to do with a Wisconsin to Minnesota thing,
Also I am sure no one was more disappointed then the young man himself, I would just like to thank him for representing the State of Wisconsin and wish him the best of luck in college.
Thanks Kneeslide, I was actually wondering what those numbers were...very interesting. I wish there was an easy answer on how to improve our results at Fargo. I heard the interview from one of the AA this weekend from Minnesota, that from his High School team there were 3 cadets and 6 juniors competing at Fargo. Did we have any one school in Wisconsin produce 9 participants in Fargo? Would participation in duals improve that number? Just some more numbers from the bordering states in terms of participation at the Cadet and Junior level:
Minnesota 57 cadets and 67 juniors
Iowa 52 cadets and 57 juniors
Illinois 81 cadets and 82 juniors
Wisconsin 39 cadets and 45 juniors
No wonder we didn't place higher - would we all agree if we increase those numbers we will very likely improve our results? So why are we not getting more participation at Fargo?
Quote from: madeyson on July 25, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
Thanks Kneeslide, I was actually wondering what those numbers were...very interesting. I wish there was an easy answer on how to improve our results at Fargo. I heard the interview from one of the AA this weekend from Minnesota, that from his High School team there were 3 cadets and 6 juniors competing at Fargo. Did we have any one school in Wisconsin produce 9 participants in Fargo? Would participation in duals improve that number? Just some more numbers from the bordering states in terms of participation at the Cadet and Junior level:
Minnesota 57 cadets and 67 juniors
Iowa 52 cadets and 57 juniors
Illinois 81 cadets and 82 juniors
Wisconsin 39 cadets and 45 juniors
No wonder we didn't place higher - would we all agree if we increase those numbers we will very likely improve our results? So why are we not getting more participation at Fargo?
When my kids were wrestling this age I felt there were a lot of politics and favoritism taking place. Going to Fargo, I had to find out about on my own, work at getting my kids qualified, and then watch them not even be coached at Fargo. If we really want a good showing, promote it with all of the kids at the state tournament, help them, coach them, and make it obtainable for them all to try.
Quote from: madeyson on July 25, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
No wonder we didn't place higher - would we all agree if we increase those numbers we will very likely improve our results? So why are we not getting more participation at Fargo?
Maybe not that many kids want to train all summer for Fargo. High School season starts in November, but how many start in September getting ready for it. Then get done at end of February. For those kids that want to do freestyle and greco you then have to go until May, plus add 2 more months in you want to go to Fargo. That's 8+ months from start of High School season if you don't practice early in fall.
I know this may sound odd to some people but maybe not many boys/girls out there that really don't want to wrestle 9 months a year. There are a lot of options out there for kids to do, wrestling is a great option, but for most it's not the only option of what they want to do. Plenty of good wrestlers want to do other things like track, football, baseball, cross country and just decided that wrestling isn't their only thing.
I don't think there are an easy fixes for WI to place higher in the freestyle portion of Fargo, it will take time.
That being said I think we are on the upswing(and hopefully that upswing will be held.) in addition to 5 cadet AA finishes WI had 5 wrestlers lose in the blood round. If WI gets a few more wins in that round I think it is a very solid showing.
IA, MN and IL are among the top tier of wrestling states and for my wrestling lifetime have had more success at this level than WI with the exception of a few years.
That being said you know we(AWA) will hold up our end of the bargain in trying to prepare WI athletes for success on the brightest stage in HS wrestling. I'm already looking forward to and preparing for Fargo next year.
maydeson - If I ran the numbers right and deduped correctly there were 6 competitors from Kaukauana and 6 from Stoughton at Fargo. I am not sure if your competitors numbers are correct. I get 127 Wisconsin competitors at Fargo this year - 56 Cadets and 71 Juniors. I did not go look at other state to see how they compared. And I did not count the Women's competitors - that would probably add another 20-25 Wisconsin competitors.
Did I miscount or did you only count one style?
Also...if my numbers are correct...in 2015 Wisconsin had 117 competitors at Fargo - 57 Cadets and 60 Juniors...
And 72 of the 2016 Fargo Competitors from Wisconsin did not compete at Fargo last year - 46 cadets and 26 Juniors.
Oh...and in 2015 Hudson had 7 competitors at Fargo...Stoughton, Kaukauna and Mukwonago each had 4
Let me know if you see an error in my counts. Thanks
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2016, 12:08:43 PM
I agree the numbers are lower then what is probably nesseasry for WI to contend with our neighbors, however there were states with less wrestlers then WI and they were more competitive.
I looked up the credentials of the MN coaching staff and they are very impressive. Dan Chandler is a7x USA coach of the year, head coach of the Greco Olympic team in 2000 and the Asst coach in 2012. That may inspire more kids in MN to go out.
Careful Getyour. Sounds like you do not think our Coaches measure up ?
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2016, 05:32:57 PM
Woody
Careful?
I think we have several fine coaches.
I have had several parents of kids at Fargo reach out to me since I placed the post and express there thoughts, I wish they would do it on this post.
I think some change is nesseasry.
It sounds like most would like to do the duals.
It sounds like most don't agree with an intense camp that ends a day before Fargo.
It sounds like most feel politics are a part of the culture.
Just saying.
I have been warned by several that pointing this out could get my son black balled, nice thing we have going
on here, what do you think Woody?
What politics u speaking of? I have seen none and my son has been involved with WWF since 2nd grade....and as far as coaching staffs goes.....our coaching staff is as good as it gets for a state at Fargo
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2016, 05:32:57 PM
Woody
Careful?
I think we have several fine coaches.
I have had several parents of kids at Fargo reach out to me since I placed the post and express there thoughts, I wish they would do it on this post.
I think some change is nesseasry.
It sounds like most would like to do the duals.
It sounds like most don't agree with an intense camp that ends a day before Fargo.
It sounds like most feel politics are a part of the culture.
Just saying.
I have been warned by several that pointing this out could get my son black balled, nice thing we have going on here, what do you think Woody?
I noticed that you call for participation in the duals and yet I didn't see your son wrestle on Team WI, I hope he isn't injured.
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2016, 05:32:57 PM
Woody
Careful?
I think we have several fine coaches.
I have had several parents of kids at Fargo reach out to me since I placed the post and express there thoughts, I wish they would do it on this post.
I think some change is necessary.
It sounds like most would like to do the duals.
It sounds like most don't agree with an intense camp that ends a day before Fargo.
It sounds like most feel politics are a part of the culture.
Just saying.
I have been warned by several that pointing this out could get my son black balled, nice thing we have going on here, what do you think Woody?
What change do you suggest?
Please give examples of politics.
The camp in River Falls in not intensive. Lots of drilling and a few matches.
How would you son be black balled? Would he not be able to wrestle the state tournament. Would the WWF not allow him to qualify through a regional? Would he not be allowed to come to camp and wrestle off for a spot? Answer to all is no, your son would never be black balled and it is not even possible for the WWF do accomplish any of this.
Pretty easy to sit behind a computer and cut down our program and give no facts. Your points would be taken more serious if you had specific examples of these things happening and not just comments without merit.
Quote from: SP on July 25, 2016, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2016, 05:32:57 PM
Woody
Careful?
I think we have several fine coaches.
I have had several parents of kids at Fargo reach out to me since I placed the post and express there thoughts, I wish they would do it on this post.
I think some change is necessary.
It sounds like most would like to do the duals.
It sounds like most don't agree with an intense camp that ends a day before Fargo.
It sounds like most feel politics are a part of the culture.
Just saying.
I have been warned by several that pointing this out could get my son black balled, nice thing we have going on here, what do you think Woody?
What change do you suggest?
Please give examples of politics.
The camp in River Falls in not intensive. Lots of drilling and a few matches.
How would you son be black balled? Would he not be able to wrestle the state tournament. Would the WWF not allow him to qualify through a regional? Would he not be allowed to come to camp and wrestle off for a spot? Answer to all is no, your son would never be black balled and it is not even possible for the WWF do accomplish any of this.
Pretty easy to sit behind a computer and cut down our program and give no facts. Your points would be taken more serious if you had specific examples of these things happening and not just comments without merit.
Not intensive???? You may want to talk to the kids who were there. This has been a complaint for several years.
Getyourpoints
1 easy
2 to
3 call
4 out
5 program
6 and
7 coaches
8 behind
9 cute
10 screen name
11 ::)
Quote from: foose4 on July 25, 2016, 03:04:05 PM
Quote from: madeyson on July 25, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
No wonder we didn't place higher - would we all agree if we increase those numbers we will very likely improve our results? So why are we not getting more participation at Fargo?
Maybe not that many kids want to train all summer for Fargo. High School season starts in November, but how many start in September getting ready for it. Then get done at end of February. For those kids that want to do freestyle and greco you then have to go until May, plus add 2 more months in you want to go to Fargo. That's 8+ months from start of High School season if you don't practice early in fall.
I know this may sound odd to some people but maybe not many boys/girls out there that really don't want to wrestle 9 months a year. There are a lot of options out there for kids to do, wrestling is a great option, but for most it's not the only option of what they want to do. Plenty of good wrestlers want to do other things like track, football, baseball, cross country and just decided that wrestling isn't their only thing.
Plus 1,0000
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 25, 2016, 11:30:33 PM
So Mike your happy with the system?
I have told these coaches face to face my thoughts.
You also understand this is a forum where people voice thoughts, jokes, facts, frustrations. I just want to make sure you know the purpose of a forum.
I wonder if you've ever truly stepped back and wonder what the coaches say to each other when you are walking towards them. I'm not just saying summer coaches...even during the regular season at your school, the school you were at or the one you may find yourself at in the future.
I think most here know who you are and I don't think this is the way at all to get positive change. Most on here would like to see Wisconsin do great at Fargo but almost none have a player in the game. My kids were/are good wrestlers but baseball was always something they did in the spring and enjoyed. So you are aiming criticism at people mostly looking from the outside in. This should have been done behind closed doors with those that are running the summer program instead of just throwing out negativity here.
I can say that I know these coaches quite well and they deserve tons of praise for all the work they do.
Quote from: padre on July 26, 2016, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: foose4 on July 25, 2016, 03:04:05 PM
Quote from: madeyson on July 25, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
No wonder we didn't place higher - would we all agree if we increase those numbers we will very likely improve our results? So why are we not getting more participation at Fargo?
Maybe not that many kids want to train all summer for Fargo. High School season starts in November, but how many start in September getting ready for it. Then get done at end of February. For those kids that want to do freestyle and greco you then have to go until May, plus add 2 more months in you want to go to Fargo. That's 8+ months from start of High School season if you don't practice early in fall.
I know this may sound odd to some people but maybe not many boys/girls out there that really don't want to wrestle 9 months a year. There are a lot of options out there for kids to do, wrestling is a great option, but for most it's not the only option of what they want to do. Plenty of good wrestlers want to do other things like track, football, baseball, cross country and just decided that wrestling isn't their only thing.
Plus 1,0000
+10,000 Had to out do you..... But agree, but then again what does Foose know, it's not like he is a parent of a multi state champ.. ::)
Also, some kids just don't enjoy FS / GR - some just enjoy folkstyle and focus more on that in tournaments and training in their fall prep work.
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 26, 2016, 06:36:04 AM
Padre,
I think most of us on the forum know whom each other are so I hope it doesn't come across as I am trying to hide my identity. I know who you are and I respect that you approach wrestling in a different manor then others on this site. I challenge you to show me where I have attacked the coaches or questioned there dedication to the sport. I understand and appreciate many of them are not being paid for there efforts, and I again thank them for that.
This thread is geared for the top 5% of our sport, the kids that wrestle year round and are competing at a national level and most likely have been since they were young. This is comparing what we are doing compared to Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois and Michagan. This isn't a debate comparing local programs or what's right or wrong with our sport locally.
The kids that are choosing to go to Fargo are making a much larger commitment to the sport (as are the coaches) and most likely have much different goals then 90% of other wrestlers. And so I am clear I am not saying that makes them better or worse just more committed. So to be competitive at a "national level" we need to be a bit more thick skinned and address why we are on a Six plus year run of not being competitive with our neighbors. Yes we have had some great individual efforts and success but over all we are being lapped in score and All Americans.
To address your statement about what coaches may say I am sure it's a mixed bag as I know it is with you as well, folks in this sport enjoy talking about one another unfortunately at least I am being transparent.
So Padre if WB middle school was continually getting its tail kicked by its neighbors would you not look to make changes? Would your local boosters not be asking for change in some sort, I'm not suggesting coaching changes.
I am not asking that we make coaching changes with team WI either I am simply comparing it to our neighboring states that are having success and asking why we are not doing what they are doing. The only coaching change I suggested was getting more local collage coaches to be part of the team? Is that a bad idea
The problem is you don't know what changes the federation has made and how they are constantly trying to improve and make things better. You really think they are sitting around saying let's keep the status quo?? The problem with your approach is you have no idea what you are talking about and feel it is "beneficial" to play passive aggressive with your negativity and back handed comments publicly. I also laugh at you saying you know the coaches and what they put into the sport...you sir have no clue...and here is a suggestion...how about stop typing behind a key board and get out and coach, volunteer, get involved, and apply to become a WWF board member??
I will give examples and I hope I am talking about old news and coaches that are no longer there, but it is what I know. I am talking about the 5-7 years ago range.
First, My son did wrestle at the state Freestyle tournament and took second to a highly recruited WI kid, good match (finished higher at Fargo). Even though they took two kids at each weight, my son was not asked to go. A young man who my son had pinned went. I called several coaches to ask why and could not get an answer. We were relatively unknown by the WI community. Finally I got a coach to admit that they took the other kid because it was a high school team mate and his dad was helping out.
Now, same year, we go to Fargo. 7 coaches were there for WI, but when ever a big name kid was wrestling, the coaches mostly went there. When my son and others were wrestling, they sometimes didn't have a coach. In fact, my son wrestled a match, and as he was walking off, literally, they called him to his semi final match. He did not have a coach to say wait, or complain, or anything. He changed his singlet on the mat and wrestled. meanwhile, all 7 coaches were in the corner for a big name WI kid. (this match was huge for us, and WI, he was wrestling a big WI recruit.) You might say, well then be a coach, but I asked many times to help, and was told they had enough.
My son went on to wrestle out of state with a combined full scholarship. I was left with the feeling that, unless you already have a "name" you don't mean much, thankfully the out of state college coaches did not feel that way.
If I was reading this I would think, that dad must have been a jerk, or he did something to upset people, but I don't believe so, we just were nobody.
Quote from: getyourpoints on July 26, 2016, 06:36:04 AM
Padre,
I think most of us on the forum know whom each other are so I hope it doesn't come across as I am trying to hide my identity. I know who you are and I respect that you approach wrestling in a different manor then others on this site. I challenge you to show me where I have attacked the coaches or questioned there dedication to the sport. I understand and appreciate many of them are not being paid for there efforts, and I again thank them for that.
This thread is geared for the top 5% of our sport, the kids that wrestle year round and are competing at a national level and most likely have been since they were young. This is comparing what we are doing compared to Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois and Michagan. This isn't a debate comparing local programs or what's right or wrong with our sport locally.
The kids that are choosing to go to Fargo are making a much larger commitment to the sport (as are the coaches) and most likely have much different goals then 90% of other wrestlers. And so I am clear I am not saying that makes them better or worse just more committed. So to be competitive at a "national level" we need to be a bit more thick skinned and address why we are on a Six plus year run of not being competitive with our neighbors. Yes we have had some great individual efforts and success but over all we are being lapped in score and All Americans.
To address your statement about what coaches may say I am sure it's a mixed bag as I know it is with you as well, folks in this sport enjoy talking about one another unfortunately at least I am being transparent.
So Padre if WB middle school was continually getting its tail kicked by its neighbors would you not look to make changes? Would your local boosters not be asking for change in some sort, I'm not suggesting coaching changes.
I am not asking that we make coaching changes with team WI either I am simply comparing it to our neighboring states that are having success and asking why we are not doing what they are doing. The only coaching change I suggested was getting more local collage coaches to be part of the team? Is that a bad idea
Boosters? Now that's funny. I went out and made change....very few of my kids wrestle a lot during the summer. I ask that they are committed from October on. In many of these schools multi sport athletes are needed just to fill teams.
I definitely would have found a better way than to challenge those in charge. I'm just saying calling these things out to mostly people not involved in the process can leave egg on ones face and promotes a negative attitude to those that are in charge who I know are doing all they can to help Wisconsin do well.
Trust me for your home town coaches I wouldn't expect that they like me...but there's a whole different circumstance to why that is...it's not because I degrade anybody. Instead I didn't like the situation and went out and made change...which has worked out very nicely.
Quote from: foose4 on July 25, 2016, 03:04:05 PM
Quote from: madeyson on July 25, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
No wonder we didn't place higher - would we all agree if we increase those numbers we will very likely improve our results? So why are we not getting more participation at Fargo?
Maybe not that many kids want to train all summer for Fargo. High School season starts in November, but how many start in September getting ready for it. Then get done at end of February. For those kids that want to do freestyle and greco you then have to go until May, plus add 2 more months in you want to go to Fargo. That's 8+ months from start of High School season if you don't practice early in fall.
I know this may sound odd to some people but maybe not many boys/girls out there that really don't want to wrestle 9 months a year. There are a lot of options out there for kids to do, wrestling is a great option, but for most it's not the only option of what they want to do. Plenty of good wrestlers want to do other things like track, football, baseball, cross country and just decided that wrestling isn't their only thing.
Agreed
Quote from: bulldog on July 25, 2016, 05:01:42 PM
maydeson - If I ran the numbers right and deduped correctly there were 6 competitors from Kaukauana and 6 from Stoughton at Fargo. I am not sure if your competitors numbers are correct. I get 127 Wisconsin competitors at Fargo this year - 56 Cadets and 71 Juniors. I did not go look at other state to see how they compared. And I did not count the Women's competitors - that would probably add another 20-25 Wisconsin competitors.
Did I miscount or did you only count one style?
Also...if my numbers are correct...in 2015 Wisconsin had 117 competitors at Fargo - 57 Cadets and 60 Juniors...
And 72 of the 2016 Fargo Competitors from Wisconsin did not compete at Fargo last year - 46 cadets and 26 Juniors.
Oh...and in 2015 Hudson had 7 competitors at Fargo...Stoughton, Kaukauna and Mukwonago each had 4
Let me know if you see an error in my counts. Thanks
Sorry Bulldog I should have clarified that I only looked at Freestyle...sorry about that. Your numbers looks spot on - I didn't go through school-by-school, impressive for those that you mentioned. I think most of those have someone at the H.S. coaching level that is very active in the WWF, which is probably why they are seeing more participation. But there have been some great points made on here as well - multi-sport athletes and the grind of the season being major factors. If I had to pick one thing that I think could have the biggest impact, and education for all H.S. coaches on the positive effects of summer wrestling. I have seen a lot of stats and information provided by Askren, Combat, and Ringers about those positive effects of summer wrestling - maybe that could have some impact (I will admit this may be going on already and I just don't see it).
I have coached youth sports for a long time and stopped coaching 2 years ago for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. I have no dog in this fight but I expect some important WI wrestling people will be reading this thread so I want to make 2 points for them to consider. I will admit right now I have no idea who the coaches or leaders of the organization are so take my opinion with that in mind:
1. When the governing body of a sport allows favoritism in any way, it pushes away good coaches and leads to mediocrity when the talent pool is low. For example, anyone can be a good coach with a stacked team. It comes around every few years. Only a great coach and organization can consistently produce winning teams. Don't allow super star athlete parents (or the athlete themselves) to manipulate the system in their child's favor. I have seen it tear apart something good a thousand times. Once the super star athlete moves on or quits, the organization is left holding an empty bag.
2. When the governing body of a sport or coach allows favoritism in any way, it pushes away good wrestlers and leads to mediocrity when the talent pool is low. Many young men and women athletes see the hypocrisy and just walk away from the sport. I have repetitively seen some of the best and most talented athletes say screw it because of a bad organization or coach.
I spend most of my time on the UW Badger part of the forum. It is amazing how this thread sounds a lot like the complaints going on about the state of UW wrestling.
Once again, I don't know any of the people being talked about in this thread. I just wanted to share a few generic comments concerning what I was reading.
To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem. I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero. Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment. You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner. Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.
Quote from: Harris on July 26, 2016, 08:11:34 AM
To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem. I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero. Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment. You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner. Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.
Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.
The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40
I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.
I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.
Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?
Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do).
So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.
I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to inappropriate term3") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.
All great points and I do agree with you to some extent. Believe me when I say I was not the best coach or the best parent athlete. We all make mistakes and must adjust. I just have a different philosophy on parenting, coaching and running an organization now that I have been through it with my own children and as a coach. I have seen the best and worst of parents, coaches and organizations.
You stated, "Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?"
As a highschool or middle school or club coach I am not coaching the team for that once in a lifetime athlete. In addition, the Fargo athletes are not 1st year unseasoned wrestlers. I have coached a few D1 athletes and now one who went pro. They all went outside of the organization to get the specialized training and workouts. I am sure the same can be said for Jesse and Ben but I don't know for certain. I coach the same regardless of who the athletes are in front of me. I will take a room full of 1st year unseasoned athletes with the right work ethic and attitude over 1 primadonna any day. I have seen too many primadonna's wreck a team and organization and then leave. I heard many elite athletes say wrestling and sports in general is more mental than physical. All kids need that same mental conditioning to succeed wherever they are athletically. Why do so many wrestling teams continue to under perform even though they have that one stud? More than likely it is because the other kids in the room are not getting the attention and coaching because the coach is catering to the stud and the studs parents. It's just what I have seen and experienced. It happens in youth sports, middle school, high school, national teams, college, pro and olympic/world teams. That's why a great coach and well run organization is such a precious commodity.
If you single out the superstar, you undermine the team and you lose the athletes 9 times out of 10. I have watched very high level athletes being trained at specialized camps. They are still learning, drilling and practicing the same basic fundamentals that I see at high school practices. Personally, I think to make the superstar's better, you need to raise the level of wrestling of all the other kids in the room so they can be competitive in practice and on the mat. You don't do that by catering to the 1 at the expense of the many.
As far as the parent of the superstar kid. I have seen the most laid back, gracious, kind, unassuming parents raise the most respectful, athletic kids. Amazingly, they did it without being pushy or asking for any special treatment. On the other hand, I have had parents of super stars threaten, bully, undermine and lie only to see their own kid quit the sport in front of them and the whole team. As a coach, I don't know who the future state champ or olympic athlete is. I just train them all the same. I am not kidding when I say we had a crying middle schooler end up being a state champion. You just never know.
As a parent and coach, I would and have gotten involved when my child or athlete is being treated differently than the rest. That is not what I am talking about here. I am talking about the organization or the parent who wants to treat certain athletes different than everyone else. There is a difference.
One more thought. Some of the greatest coaches of all time never played the sport or were not very good at the sport. Why? In my opinion, it is because they knew how to coach. You could have them coaching the girls volleyball team, the boys hockey team or the bowling team and they would still field a competitive team within a few years. You don't do that by waiting for superstar athletes. You do it by coaching up what you got.
I don't get on the forum much but I heard this discussion was up and wanted to see what constructive ideas were being tossed around. Whenever you complete a project it is good to take note of "lessons learned" in order to move forward. So now that we are done with the project- FS and GR season, we should take note and update our plan for next year and the next 5 years.
Fargo results (and when we participate, National Dual results) are a great way to gauge where Wisconsin stands as a state. I am surprised anyone would be against this exercise and the posting of it on the forum. As a club coach every year I run the same stats that getyourpoints did. This year it was not pretty with WI being behind our 4 neighbor states at every age group and style. And we are out of the top 10 among all states. This matters because Fargo is the most important meet for HS age wrestlers of the year even if you don't want to wrestle after HS. If you do want to go on, it is essential to prove you can compete on a national level and not just in Wisconsin. Does everyone have to go this route? No, but it is a proven method for improving as a wrestler and getting noticed by coaches. Ringers of note that benefited from this: Alex Dieringer would have gotten zero interest from OSU without his Jr. Nat. title and Beau Breske's 3 state titles means little to Manning compared to his FS title. For those that just don't like FS and GR, what can I say other than I think your really missing out.
Bottom line is we have to start producing more All-Americans. Let's start talking about that. Ben Askren is right in noting we had numerous near misses, but we have to get more of those kids over the top.
I saw some good ideas:
-maybe it is a good time to get back in National Duals at Cadet and Jr. level
-having knowledgable coaches like Craig Becker from UW Parkside would be outstanding
-heck, get more participation from all the college coaches in the state. Is there a limit to the amount of volunteer coaches?
-get more wrestlers going both styles and modify the camps to accommodate them
Let's be open minded to change and questioning how we can do better. I know our state coaches are looking to find new ways to get better results and this should be a place to cultivate those ideas. So let's hear some ideas that can be used.
Jim Schmitz
Ringers Wrestling Club
Harris...good discussion and good points. You did not address the point about putting the first year kid in a high level training session. Would you? Why or why not?
It seems like I didn't really make my point. You made a point about "pushy parents...Olympic athlete". My point was it is those kids/parent combination that make the Olympic athlete. Why do athletes like Jesse and Ben go outside of their own room looking for additional training? If they had the support in their room would they have to? I can name two wrestlers from a championship team...the individuals rarely went outside the room. They had each other and they pushed each other. One was a 2x state champ and one was a 2x runner up...BTW the runner up was the one that did do outside training. Neither competed at Fargo as far as I know and one went on to wrestle for a D1 team.
My point...the coach saw these individuals needed something more then the kid that just came out for the team and he supported it. That coach took some average kids and made them good and took some good kids and made the great but he did not coach every kid the same.
As a coach are we there for the team or for the individual? Or is it a fine balance of the two? In youth and HS are we working towards guiding an individual to be a better person or to win team championships?
Why is it always one primadonna wrecking a room. Maybe if it was looked at as one motivated athlete in a room of others who do not have similar goals. If all coaches looked at the sport and said they coach to the room and not the individual then wouldn't all athletes be Olympic level athletes? Someone had to take the time to get on board with the dream. Some kids have more drive...some kids are just out for the sport to be out for the sport...some are out just to stay in shape for football. If I understand your point correctly, you feel they all should get the same level of coaching in the room
I am not saying singling anyone out and I am not talking about the "primadonna" those are negative ideals. I want to give the kid that wants more...more and I want to support the kid that has greater goals within the sport? Instead of looking at that kid as a negative in the room look at him as a positive. I have coached that kid and had him help others out in the room and that kid has been one of the key components in raising the level of the skill in the room.
Yes...I agree there are the pain in the butts but how did they get there? Could they be frustrated in the room because there are others in the room that just are not as committed to the sport as they are? Possibly.
So while you say a "primadonna" can wreck a room...what about the other side...the kid that is just taking up space and not serious about the sport. Don't tell me they wash out...I have been in enough HS rooms that have that one screw around who nobody gets on about stepping up. He is just good enough to fill a varsity spot at a weight class the team needs but he is more concerned about the music on the stereo or goofing off in practice. That kid can bring a room down just as much as the primadonna.
I find this conversation line interesting...hope we can keep it civil!! HA
Yes - I would put them in a high level training session. My idea of a high level training session and your idea may be different. I think we are both kind of saying the same thing just in a different way. I would not throw a middle school wrestler in a live practice/wrestle off with a state champion. That does not mean that I can't coach them both in the same room during the same practice.
I am not sure if I agree that the kid/parent combination makes the olympic caliber athlete. If that was true, all pro athletes would have pro athlete kids and all olympic athletes would have olympian kids. There is so much more to it. How does the single mom who never wrestled a day in her life and never bothers the coaching staff end up having a state champion or D1 wrestler? I agree parents have a huge influence on the kids but being pushy is not going to make a great athlete and asking for special treatment is not doing the athlete any good. Take them outside the organization if need be.
As far as Jesse and Ben going outside the room, that is what happens when an athlete gets to that level. I understand that. On the other hand, I still don't treat them any differently when they are in my practice.
Why can't we win championships and teach life lessons and guide athletes to become better people? The great coaches I have seen do both. Why do some coaches do it year after year with any kids you give them? I believe it is because they treat them all the same.
One of my favorite coaches was given the C team in middle school football one year. They got all the little kids, the uncoordinated kids and the first year players. By the end of the season, they were beating the A and B teams and beating their opponents in games. How do they do it year after year?
I would argue that the reason a lot of kids are not committed, screw around, or take up space is because the coach isn't doing their job. A great coach can get the laziest kids to run through, over, and around brick walls while the bad coach just waits for the super stud athletes to do their heavy lifting for them and lets the the lazy kids wash out as you say. In fact, the bad coach usually hopes the lazy uncommitted kids quit while the great coach wants every kid they can find.
I am a much better teacher than coach. I teach the same way with the same material no matter who is in my room. When I teach math, there is only one way I know how and everyone gets taught the same way. I try to do the same in sports. I don't know how to do it any other way with any success. When I get the student who is that one in a million, I try to help them find additional challenges outside the room if needed. I just don't do it in the room to the detriment of everyone else. I still love the stories of the Green Bay Packer glory days where all they did was practice the Packer sweep over and over again. Everyone knew it was coming but no one could stop them.
I believe we need to start by getting more kids and coaches interested in Fargo. At the state tournament talk to the coaches at a meeting and encourage them to talk to their kids. Maybe even hand out a flyer with Fargo information and training information.
Side note; I would also like to see us take more kids to senior nations in Virginia, WOW, what a tournament!
I admit that Minnesota, Iowa and Illinois do have better high school wrestling.
And I certainly was happy with the coaches that Wisconsin had when I went through.
But that does not mean that just because Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois are likely to finish ahead
of Team Wisconsin that we do not at least send one team to the National Duals.
Please somebody step forward and at least send a junior freestyle team to the national duals next year.
I realize that money is involved but it is a black eye that WI does not even field a team for such a fantastic event.
You cannot claim that the money is better spent since it is clear that the Fargo results have clearly not
been better since the decision to not compete at the National Duals.
I don't believe the (lack of) results in Fargo is due to not participating in the National Duals. The duals have their pros and cons. I probably would not send my kids to the duals. But that is just me. Someone else may see the duals as being more beneficial. If my kids qualified for the team and chose not to go, that would just open up spots for someone that wanted to go and thought it would be of benefit to them. I wouldn't want my kids adding one more weigh in, and going through the grind of 15 matches one month prior to Fargo. They may come home beat up, injured and/or drained which disrupts the schedule if you are truly trying to train for Fargo. However, Wisconsin's results at Fargo have been short of the talent I think we have in this state. There are definitely issues, but I can't identify or put my finger on them yet. Certainly we have more talent than our (freestyle especially) results would indicate. I am sure the WWF would welcome any of you to their fall meeting to discuss, as well as provide feedback and suggestions.
being a pushy parent and a supportive parent is a fine line.
bottom line is that parents can do what they want but it come down to the individual athlete what they are going to push themselves into what ever level.
I hope that the kids doesnt try to achieve the best because that is solely what the parent wants. I hope the parent guide them into a direction and is supportive and the athlete decides or puts in the time to do so.
just my take.
Quote from: bulldog on July 26, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: Harris on July 26, 2016, 08:11:34 AM
To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem. I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero. Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment. You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner. Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.
Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.
The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40
I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.
I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.
Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?
Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do).
So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.
I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to blazes") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.
while I am late to this chatter, the last paragraph about the freshman goal of being a D1 wrestling struck me as a talking point.
I think to a coach that is a single big dream or goal to set. Though I would have asked the wrestler and parent this.
Going backwards what are some things you need to do to achieve that goal. so image yourself as a D1 wrestling, looking back at the last 4 years what did you do to achieve that goal.
I have heard this D1 statement from parents and wrestlers at a younger than freshman age say this. I ask that very question to the athlete and parent and usually get no response or they are not sure as to what to say.
I cannt blame this high school coach not making this 1 wrestlers goal come true. hopefully he has a room full of kids that also need the same attention to make the team aspect grow.
I look at it as,,,asking a coach to make they kid a D1 wrestler is alittle out of line. JMO. If it is a high school coach that is. Now if that same family went to the AWA and sat down with those coaches and said the same thing, now I think they are on to something.
No rip on any high school coach at all. I would bet there are some out there and I know there is, that will get kids into a D1 school but with that said, they also have a school sport to take care of, responsible to many kids in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not inappropriate term9 around in school and such. Those things take up some time where as maybe a club coach and just worry more about the actual sport of wrestler.
once again, JMO
Quote from: littleguy301 on July 28, 2016, 08:51:04 PM
Quote from: bulldog on July 26, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: Harris on July 26, 2016, 08:11:34 AM
To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem. I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero. Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment. You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner. Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.
Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.
The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40
I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.
I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.
Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?
Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do).
So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.
I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to blazes") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.
while I am late to this chatter, the last paragraph about the freshman goal of being a D1 wrestling struck me as a talking point.
I think to a coach that is a single big dream or goal to set. Though I would have asked the wrestler and parent this.
Going backwards what are some things you need to do to achieve that goal. so image yourself as a D1 wrestling, looking back at the last 4 years what did you do to achieve that goal.
I have heard this D1 statement from parents and wrestlers at a younger than freshman age say this. I ask that very question to the athlete and parent and usually get no response or they are not sure as to what to say.
I cannt blame this high school coach not making this 1 wrestlers goal come true. hopefully he has a room full of kids that also need the same attention to make the team aspect grow.
I look at it as,,,asking a coach to make they kid a D1 wrestler is alittle out of line. JMO. If it is a high school coach that is. Now if that same family went to the AWA and sat down with those coaches and said the same thing, now I think they are on to something.
No rip on any high school coach at all. I would bet there are some out there and I know there is, that will get kids into a D1 school but with that said, they also have a school sport to take care of, responsible to many kids in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. Those things take up some time where as maybe a club coach and just worry more about the actual sport of wrestler.
once again, JMO
littleguy301...the point of that story is that the wrestler put that goal down as a freshman and the coach squashed that goal then. How can you "go backwards" when the journey has just started? Unless you are saying look back at the previous 4 years prior to freshman year in HS. And it isn't about "blaming" the coach for the D1 dream not being obtained...but more about the coach not recognizing the goal and helping point the athlete in the right direction.
If the coach wants to be "the guy" and cut the parent out of the process then he needs to address these items. Or he could work with the parent to discuss goals and dreams and how THEY can work TOGETHER to help the kid achieve those goals.
Imagine how much more successful we could be (teams and athletes) if the coach and parent and athlete all discussed goals, agreed on individuals and team goals and worked together on a plan to achieve those goals.
Let's put it in a slightly different arena...say a kid wants to go to Notre Dame for a college education. Who is going to help that kid obtain that goal. Sure he needs to keep his grades up, do community work, keep his nose clean...he needs to do everything he can to get to Notre Dame. Some would say the parent has a level of obligation to help the kid achieve this goal. Does the HS guidance counselor have any level of responsibility to that kid?
So along comes the HS guidance counselor who proceeds to tells the kid (as a freshman) that there really is no way the kid is going to make it into Notre Dame...it is expensive, Notre Dame only take the very elite and/or top percentage of all graduating seniors. So Notre Dame probably won't happen. Besides...that guidance counselor has many kids (probably more then your average wrestling coach) to deal with so the parents shouldn't expect the guidance counselor to take time to guide the kid and offer advice to help that freshman achieve his/her goal of Notre Dame.
Is that what should be expected? The counselor has 100s of kids to deal with. They don't have the time to worry about individuals...they have to worry about graduating as many kids as possible. That is their main objective so don't bother them with individual goals...right?
BTW...the Notre Dame scenario is real. And the guidance counselor (who had several hundred kids to deal with daily) did the job of guiding a young man to achieve that goal. It wasn't easy but she took the time and helped the kid and the parents stay the line to get to that goal.
Also...IMO it isn't the coaches responsibility to be responsible in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. I understand that they do watch this and they end up chasing kids around about grades etc...but if you feel they don't have the time to help guide a kid towards a goal (D1 college wrestler) then why should they be expected to be the team nanny in all other areas? Don't mess with it...Let Johnny know he is inappropriate term9 up and he needs to get his stuff together.
As a parent I deal with my kids grades, discipline, class attendance, etc. I don't expect the coach to have to chase after my kid for this stuff. My kids have 2 parents already...they don't need a third. I would think expectations are for the coach are to coach wrestling and help achieve the wrestling goals for the team...and the individuals on the team.
I am not sure who did what for training for Fargo as I was out of the loop this year. I think we would all agree that placing at Fargo is much more difficult than placing in our state tournament. (Yes on any given year there may be exceptions) In order to get ready for the high school state tournaments, almost all athletes are practicing a minimum of 2 hours at their high school practices while engaging at other workouts (weight lifting, extra cardio, club practices, etc.). In short, training needs to be even more intense for Fargo than a high school season to expect results. Would we ever practice twice per week for the high school season? In addition, freestyle and greco have different rules and techniques.
My guess is that the athletes who became All-Americans or were close, trained as intensely as the high school folkstyle season. This means they were committed. This whole discussion needs to focus at the core.
How do we motivate or provide more athletes the opportunity to train with the same intensity for Fargo as they do during the high school season?
IMO, the kids who are committed will train more if: A) extremely driven; OR B)Enjoys the workouts and the practices...just loves the sport), AND/OR C) It provides for social acceptance, association, and friendship. We have to maintain the opportunities for the wrestlers who fall in these categories. To get better results the majority of these posts have been focusing on the What's...such as- How do we provide more opportunities for students to prepare and feel a benefit from doing so? What opportunities should be our focus? When is the right time to build in breaks? How do we get kids to peak at the right time? If only a couple (or fewer) from each high school participate, how do we connect them with practice partners?
I believe "What's" are really important, but shouldn't the focus to inspire be "Why Fargo?" or "Why train for Fargo?" Our job as coaches and parents is to help them find that answer.
Let's think about this. If the Why is to wrestle in college let's look at the following: A parent pointed out the other day on Facebook, 2.6% of high school wrestlers go on to wrestle in the NCAA at any level (1% to D1). According to the NCAA, there were 6,982 college participants in the NCAA. According to the wiwrestling.com website Forum Topic "Where are they wrestling there were 20 wrestler in the class of 2015 and 27 in the class of 2016. (That's an average of about 24 per year. 24 x a 4-year cohort would = approximately 96 wrestling in the NCAA from Wisconsin). If I am doing the math correctly that means of the NCAA wrestling participants in the entire country, 98.6% came from a state other than Wisconsin. According to Where they are going to wrestling? About 11 of the 6982 each year come from Wisconsin Another 5 per year wrestle NCAA D2 from Wisconsin. That means each year (excluding NAIA), 16 of our athletes have the opportunity for an NCAA wrestling scholarship. If getting a scholarship to wrestle is a Why, then we need more high school coaches (and possibly guidance counselors) sharing the importance of Fargo. Then one would assume if Fargo numbers increase it would correlate to higher numbers of wrestlers going on to college to wrestle. Another Why, is that the majority of participants in Fargo were also participants in the WIAA state tournament. (don't have time to do the math). Those are just two of the Why's. If we really want this to resonate with our wrestlers, they have to be able to answer "Why Fargo?" If we can come up with a list of Why Fargo and Why Train, then we may be able to convince athletes to establish this as a goal. I believe the Why's have to be more than just wrestling for a scholarship.
Here's one suggestion if we can target some Why's. Possibly at the WIAA state wrestling tournament, where we have our biggest crowd- We could create some sort of a commercial on the video board playing over and over with a some interviews of post-college athletes (unless it is allowable to have high school athletes) sponsored in part by WWF and/or the Private Clubs with a "Why Fargo?" campaign. Wisconsin is fortunate to have many nationally recognized wrestling names. Can you imagine the little wrestlers watching the state tournament with their dreams of wrestling in Madison and seeing on the big video screen of the importance of Fargo in getting there?
I just know the focus has to be on the athletes as they are the ones who have to get the job done.
Good post! :o
I like your point of view Nutman. I ran some numbers after the 2016 WIAA State Tournament and compared it to Fargo participants. This may help your point of view. In 2015 Wisconsin sent 116 wrestlers to Fargo. Of that 116 27 did not make it to the state tournament...89 did. Figure there are 42 champions (14 weight classes x 3 divisions)...24 2015-2016 WIAA state champions wrestled in Fargo in 2015.
Of the 89 2015 Fargo participants that made it to the 2015-2016 WIAA state tournament...72 of them placed at the WIAA state tournament.
I have been planning to run this years participants and compare how they did in the 2016 State Tournament but just have not gotten to it yet. Now it becomes a "cart and horse" question...were the 116 who went to Fargo in 2015 already good enough to get to the WIAA state tournament without Fargo or did the preparation for Fargo make them good enough to get to the State Tournament? 560 athletes make it to the state tournament...so 471 didn't go to Fargo. I can argue both sides of the topic.
But the 58% state champs came out of Fargo is a pretty strong statement (38% of the state runner ups came out of Fargo also)
OH..and want an argument from a team standpoint? Hudson, Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Stoughton had more participants at Fargo then any other WI High School team. These 4 teams made it to the D1 state team tournament and 3 of the four made it through the first round at team state (Kaukauna knocked off Hudson in the first round)
Quote from: bulldog on July 29, 2016, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on July 28, 2016, 08:51:04 PM
Quote from: bulldog on July 26, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: Harris on July 26, 2016, 08:11:34 AM
To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem. I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero. Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment. You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner. Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.
Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.
The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40
I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.
I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.
Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?
Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do).
So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.
I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to blazes") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.
while I am late to this chatter, the last paragraph about the freshman goal of being a D1 wrestling struck me as a talking point.
I think to a coach that is a single big dream or goal to set. Though I would have asked the wrestler and parent this.
Going backwards what are some things you need to do to achieve that goal. so image yourself as a D1 wrestling, looking back at the last 4 years what did you do to achieve that goal.
I have heard this D1 statement from parents and wrestlers at a younger than freshman age say this. I ask that very question to the athlete and parent and usually get no response or they are not sure as to what to say.
I cannt blame this high school coach not making this 1 wrestlers goal come true. hopefully he has a room full of kids that also need the same attention to make the team aspect grow.
I look at it as,,,asking a coach to make they kid a D1 wrestler is alittle out of line. JMO. If it is a high school coach that is. Now if that same family went to the AWA and sat down with those coaches and said the same thing, now I think they are on to something.
No rip on any high school coach at all. I would bet there are some out there and I know there is, that will get kids into a D1 school but with that said, they also have a school sport to take care of, responsible to many kids in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. Those things take up some time where as maybe a club coach and just worry more about the actual sport of wrestler.
once again, JMO
littleguy301...the point of that story is that the wrestler put that goal down as a freshman and the coach squashed that goal then. How can you "go backwards" when the journey has just started? Unless you are saying look back at the previous 4 years prior to freshman year in HS. And it isn't about "blaming" the coach for the D1 dream not being obtained...but more about the coach not recognizing the goal and helping point the athlete in the right direction.
If the coach wants to be "the guy" and cut the parent out of the process then he needs to address these items. Or he could work with the parent to discuss goals and dreams and how THEY can work TOGETHER to help the kid achieve those goals.
Imagine how much more successful we could be (teams and athletes) if the coach and parent and athlete all discussed goals, agreed on individuals and team goals and worked together on a plan to achieve those goals.
Let's put it in a slightly different arena...say a kid wants to go to Notre Dame for a college education. Who is going to help that kid obtain that goal. Sure he needs to keep his grades up, do community work, keep his nose clean...he needs to do everything he can to get to Notre Dame. Some would say the parent has a level of obligation to help the kid achieve this goal. Does the HS guidance counselor have any level of responsibility to that kid?
So along comes the HS guidance counselor who proceeds to tells the kid (as a freshman) that there really is no way the kid is going to make it into Notre Dame...it is expensive, Notre Dame only take the very elite and/or top percentage of all graduating seniors. So Notre Dame probably won't happen. Besides...that guidance counselor has many kids (probably more then your average wrestling coach) to deal with so the parents shouldn't expect the guidance counselor to take time to guide the kid and offer advice to help that freshman achieve his/her goal of Notre Dame.
Is that what should be expected? The counselor has 100s of kids to deal with. They don't have the time to worry about individuals...they have to worry about graduating as many kids as possible. That is their main objective so don't bother them with individual goals...right?
BTW...the Notre Dame scenario is real. And the guidance counselor (who had several hundred kids to deal with daily) did the job of guiding a young man to achieve that goal. It wasn't easy but she took the time and helped the kid and the parents stay the line to get to that goal.
Also...IMO it isn't the coaches responsibility to be responsible in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. I understand that they do watch this and they end up chasing kids around about grades etc...but if you feel they don't have the time to help guide a kid towards a goal (D1 college wrestler) then why should they be expected to be the team nanny in all other areas? Don't mess with it...Let Johnny know he is messing up and he needs to get his stuff together.
As a parent I deal with my kids grades, discipline, class attendance, etc. I don't expect the coach to have to chase after my kid for this stuff. My kids have 2 parents already...they don't need a third. I would think expectations are for the coach are to coach wrestling and help achieve the wrestling goals for the team...and the individuals on the team.
well since the coach squashed his dream please explain if this wrestler made it to the D1 level? All because the coach said to write down lesser goals the wrestler failed.
bulldog, if you came to me and asked me how to lose 20 pounds and that is your goal. I would give you some idea and I WOULD ask you what are some things YOU can do to achieve your goals. I may state something like "start off with 1 change a day and see if you can drop 5 pounds in 2 weeks"
you need lesser goals to achieve the great goal. To become a D1 wrestler I would think that wrestlers should be working his butt off out side the wrestling room also. Maybe if 1 coach isnt supportive, find another coach, find a weightlifting person and so on.
also, while I am sure you take care of your son, whether you believe me or not, there is many people out there that do NOT do the same and sometimes the coach has to be the one or a helping hand with the AD, principle and teacher.
Bulldog, when the coach, parents and child set down together to set the child's goals ,I would venture to guess the majority of the time it is the coaches and or parents goals that get implemented, not the child's .the child needs to be taught how to set goals i.e. long ,medium and short how to dream big and also be realistic.But it must be the child's goal ,not anyone else's.
Jimmy...I would venture to guess that the majority of any child's goals are influenced by a parent. Same as their personality is influenced by a parent. A parent is a child's primary role model so of course there is a strong probability that the child's goals would reflect a parents influence. Find any high level athlete...from pro athlete to high school state champion to Fargo All American who obtained those levels without early parental influence. The kids learn to set their goals based on their parental influence.
So this part of the thread is about pushy parents and how they need to let coaches handle the kid. But now, once the point is made that sometimes a coach doesn't step up then the answer is "the kid needs to set their own goals" or "the wrestler would need to work their butt off outside the room". I don't get that response. How about holding the coach somewhat responsible? Littleguy...YES the wrestler went on to post HS wrestling...also graduated as one of the top kids in his class. And it wasn't the coach that got him there. It was the "pushy parent" and outside club wrestling coach. The HS coach (who is no longer a HS coach) spent 4 years ignoring the kid and basically making his life in the HS room unenjoyable. Maybe this was the one subpar coach in the state. So hopefully it is an isolated bad example.
If the coach would have worked with the parent towards the kids goal I believe that kid would have enjoyed the HS experience.
Back to the topic of our results in Fargo over the past years. I think the main question is are we cresting an environment for our kids to be successful in Fargo. I am not sure that everyone has the same definition of what success should look like. I looked at some numbers on trackwrestling to compare our placement with other teams.
List of top teams and the points they scored and how many AA they had-
1. PA- 58- 15AA
2. MN- 52- 10AA
3. IL- 46- 11AA
4. MI- 39- 8AA
5. IA- 34- 8AA
6. MO- 30- 7AA
7. OH- 25- 5AA
8. AZ- 24- 4AA
9. CA- 22- 5AA
10. CO- 21- 4AA
11. UT- 21- 2AA
12. OK- 19- 4AA
13. IN- 17- 3AA
14. FL- 15- 2AA
15. WI- 15- 5AA
So we placed behind six teams that has fewer AA than we did. Does this make us worse than them? Three states had double digit AA's. Florida had 15 points just like us, they had two kids in the finals so they got 8 and 7 points for a total of 15. Did they have a better showing than us? Florida brought 22 kids to Junior Freestyle, we had 45. There winning percentage was .5287(24th out of all teams) and ours was .6198(6th out of all teams). We had the 6th best winning percentage and only 7 states brought more kids. I think that shows that we are moving in the right direction. Depth is better and our overall winning percentage has gone up over the last three years.
The Junior Freestyle tournament is very tough and a few matches can make the difference in how your team places. When we start comparing ourselves with other states we have to look at the numbers to see if everything is equal. Of the states that had 4 or 5 AA's, every one of them had at least one person in the finals and five of them had two or more.
I did not go back to past years on Trackwrestling to compere the numbers.
If everyone had a specific definition of what success looks like, it would make it easier for us to criticize our performance. I for one see that the current system seems to be working. The real question is how do we get our better kids to win more big matches. The numbers indicate that participating in the duals is not the answer. I am on board with Nutman that getting more kids to really train is the answer. There is a huge difference between going to Fargo and competing at Fargo.
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
Back to the topic of our results in Fargo over the past years. I think the main question is are we cresting an environment for our kids to be successful in Fargo. I am not sure that everyone has the same definition of what success should look like. I looked at some numbers on trackwrestling to compare our placement with other teams.
List of top teams and the points they scored and how many AA they had-
1. PA- 58- 15AA
2. MN- 52- 10AA
3. IL- 46- 11AA
4. MI- 39- 8AA
5. IA- 34- 8AA
6. MO- 30- 7AA
7. OH- 25- 5AA
8. AZ- 24- 4AA
9. CA- 22- 5AA
10. CO- 21- 4AA
11. UT- 21- 2AA
12. OK- 19- 4AA
13. IN- 17- 3AA
14. FL- 15- 2AA
15. WI- 15- 5AA
So we placed behind six teams that has fewer AA than we did. Does this make us worse than them? Three states had double digit AA's. Florida had 15 points just like us, they had two kids in the finals so they got 8 and 7 points for a total of 15. Did they have a better showing than us? Florida brought 22 kids to Junior Freestyle, we had 45. There winning percentage was .5287(24th out of all teams) and ours was .6198(6th out of all teams). We had the 6th best winning percentage and only 7 states brought more kids. I think that shows that we are moving in the right direction. Depth is better and our overall winning percentage has gone up over the last three years.
The Junior Freestyle tournament is very tough and a few matches can make the difference in how your team places. When we start comparing ourselves with other states we have to look at the numbers to see if everything is equal. Of the states that had 4 or 5 AA's, every one of them had at least one person in the finals and five of them had two or more.
I did not go back to past years on Trackwrestling to compere the numbers.
If everyone had a specific definition of what success looks like, it would make it easier for us to criticize our performance. I for one see that the current system seems to be working. The real question is how do we get our better kids to win more big matches. The numbers indicate that participating in the duals is not the answer. I am on board with Nutman that getting more kids to really train is the answer. There is a huge difference between going to Fargo and competing at Fargo.
Where do you see numbers prove the duals do not help? Sorry but the top placing teams went to the duals. You want our chances to improve in Fargo we go back to the duals and get our kids the matches to prepare them for Fargo.
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
Back to the topic of our results in Fargo over the past years. I think the main question is are we cresting an environment for our kids to be successful in Fargo. I am not sure that everyone has the same definition of what success should look like. I looked at some numbers on trackwrestling to compare our placement with other teams.
List of top teams and the points they scored and how many AA they had-
1. PA- 58- 15AA
2. MN- 52- 10AA
3. IL- 46- 11AA
4. MI- 39- 8AA
5. IA- 34- 8AA
6. MO- 30- 7AA
7. OH- 25- 5AA
8. AZ- 24- 4AA
9. CA- 22- 5AA
10. CO- 21- 4AA
11. UT- 21- 2AA
12. OK- 19- 4AA
13. IN- 17- 3AA
14. FL- 15- 2AA
15. WI- 15- 5AA
So we placed behind six teams that has fewer AA than we did. Does this make us worse than them? Three states had double digit AA's. Florida had 15 points just like us, they had two kids in the finals so they got 8 and 7 points for a total of 15. Did they have a better showing than us? Florida brought 22 kids to Junior Freestyle, we had 45. There winning percentage was .5287(24th out of all teams) and ours was .6198(6th out of all teams). We had the 6th best winning percentage and only 7 states brought more kids. I think that shows that we are moving in the right direction. Depth is better and our overall winning percentage has gone up over the last three years.
The Junior Freestyle tournament is very tough and a few matches can make the difference in how your team places. When we start comparing ourselves with other states we have to look at the numbers to see if everything is equal. Of the states that had 4 or 5 AA's, every one of them had at least one person in the finals and five of them had two or more.
I did not go back to past years on Trackwrestling to compere the numbers.
If everyone had a specific definition of what success looks like, it would make it easier for us to criticize our performance. I for one see that the current system seems to be working. The real question is how do we get our better kids to win more big matches. The numbers indicate that participating in the duals is not the answer. I am on board with Nutman that getting more kids to really train is the answer. There is a huge difference between going to Fargo and competing at Fargo.
I just want to point out every team that placed in front of us from SP's post above were at Junior duals and 6 of the teams had not 1 team but 2 teams.
I am going back a couple of pages on this thread citing the incident where a one of the goals a kid had was to wrestle D1 in college. I think people have read more into it than it actually was. If I understand correctly (Bulldog, please clarify if needed), the kid had for ONE of his goals for high school wrestling, to someday wrestle at the D1 level. The coach basically told the kid his goal was unrealistic, that few kids achieve that etc. If that is what happened, the coach was being a douche (Sorry, I have always wanted to use the written form of the word Douche in a proper sentence). The kid was a freshmen at the time (Lee Kemp started wrestling as a freshmen). The coach should be encouraging kids to dream and to strive for something big, or the very least, not killing the dreams or goals of kids. The coach could have also guided the kid to also select some short term goals (more realistic or easier etc) that served as measures/stepping stones to reach their larger goal, i.e.; qualify and/or place at state, win state etc... This sounds like a situation where a kid was motivated and dreaming big, but the coach squashed it for him. Given, if that was one of the kid's goals, the kid shouldn't let others tell him you can't do it etc... However, it may be hard when you don't feel you are supported by the coach. Every kid in that room had different goals or dreams. It is the coach's job to help or encourage every kid to pursue what THEY want out of the sport. A kid with big goals is a kid that is working and setting the right examples. Shame on the coach in this case.
National Dual Matter, I am not sure how anyone can argue any differ
Quote from: bman on July 30, 2016, 01:50:05 PM
I am going back a couple of pages on this thread citing the incident where a one of the goals a kid had was to wrestle D1 in college. I think people have read more into it than it actually was. If I understand correctly (Bulldog, please clarify if needed), the kid had for ONE of his goals for high school wrestling, to someday wrestle at the D1 level. The coach basically told the kid his goal was unrealistic, that few kids achieve that etc. If that is what happened, the coach was being a douche (Sorry, I have always wanted to use the written form of the word Douche in a proper sentence). The kid was a freshmen at the time (Lee Kemp started wrestling as a freshmen). The coach should be encouraging kids to dream and to strive for something big, or the very least, not killing the dreams or goals of kids. The coach could have also guided the kid to also select some short term goals (more realistic or easier etc) that served as measures/stepping stones to reach their larger goal, i.e.; qualify and/or place at state, win state etc... This sounds like a situation where a kid was motivated and dreaming big, but the coach squashed it for him. Given, if that was one of the kid's goals, the kid shouldn't let others tell him you can't do it etc... However, it may be hard when you don't feel you are supported by the coach. Every kid in that room had different goals or dreams. It is the coach's job to help or encourage every kid to pursue what THEY want out of the sport. A kid with big goals is a kid that is working and setting the right examples. Shame on the coach in this case.
I don't see much difference between this and a scenario where a kid tells his teacher that he wants to be the president of the US. It's not the teacher's responsibility to get him to that goal, nor is it the responsibility of the teacher to squash that dream. Rather, within the context of their interaction, the teacher/coach should layout a short-term plan that moves the kid down the identified path toward his/her goal. A coach who tells his kid that he should forget about long-term collegiate goals is doing something wrong. That said, coaches are just people, some of whom are flawed as people, who simply aren't well qualified to guide young people in the pursuit of their personal goals. If you want coaches (and teachers) to be these sort of amazing "personal trainers" then the system needs to pay them accordingly and demand additional training that would allow them to provide such level of service. As it stands, especially in WI, anyone who raise his/her hand can be put in charge of a cadre of young people and asked to lead. If the parents of youth who want well-qualified coaches/teachers to support such lofty goals, then they also need to understand that it comes at a cost; the "average Joe" off the street does not have the training, nor experience, to simply step in and "make it happen."
If you want more, then you should expect to pay more.
Quote from: aarons23 on July 30, 2016, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
Back to the topic of our results in Fargo over the past years. I think the main question is are we cresting an environment for our kids to be successful in Fargo. I am not sure that everyone has the same definition of what success should look like. I looked at some numbers on trackwrestling to compare our placement with other teams.
List of top teams and the points they scored and how many AA they had-
1. PA- 58- 15AA
2. MN- 52- 10AA
3. IL- 46- 11AA
4. MI- 39- 8AA
5. IA- 34- 8AA
6. MO- 30- 7AA
7. OH- 25- 5AA
8. AZ- 24- 4AA
9. CA- 22- 5AA
10. CO- 21- 4AA
11. UT- 21- 2AA
12. OK- 19- 4AA
13. IN- 17- 3AA
14. FL- 15- 2AA
15. WI- 15- 5AA
So we placed behind six teams that has fewer AA than we did. Does this make us worse than them? Three states had double digit AA's. Florida had 15 points just like us, they had two kids in the finals so they got 8 and 7 points for a total of 15. Did they have a better showing than us? Florida brought 22 kids to Junior Freestyle, we had 45. There winning percentage was .5287(24th out of all teams) and ours was .6198(6th out of all teams). We had the 6th best winning percentage and only 7 states brought more kids. I think that shows that we are moving in the right direction. Depth is better and our overall winning percentage has gone up over the last three years.
The Junior Freestyle tournament is very tough and a few matches can make the difference in how your team places. When we start comparing ourselves with other states we have to look at the numbers to see if everything is equal. Of the states that had 4 or 5 AA's, every one of them had at least one person in the finals and five of them had two or more.
I did not go back to past years on Trackwrestling to compere the numbers.
If everyone had a specific definition of what success looks like, it would make it easier for us to criticize our performance. I for one see that the current system seems to be working. The real question is how do we get our better kids to win more big matches. The numbers indicate that participating in the duals is not the answer. I am on board with Nutman that getting more kids to really train is the answer. There is a huge difference between going to Fargo and competing at Fargo.
I just want to point out every team that placed in front of us from SP's post above were at Junior duals and 6 of the teams had not 1 team but 2 teams.
Of the 120 AA in Junior Freestyle, only 56 of those kids earned AA status. Kneeslide posted these numbers earlier in the post. In my opinion Wisconsin is moving in the right direction. The camps and travel to regional events are making our state deeper. The numbers show this. The kids we are bringing to nationals are overall doing better. There is still room to improve but we are making progress.
I think we had five kids lose in the blood round. Lets say we won those five matches and each of those kids then placed 8th. That would have given us 20 points and 10 AA. Would that have been a success? Only 3 states had double digit AA's. We would have still been in 12th place but we would have had the third most AA's. Is that success? Give me your definition of success and then we can talk. While you are at it give me your plan to make our state better. The only thing I hear is that going to the duals will make us better. Show me the numbers.
I was talking to several coaches from Illinois and they all wished that their state would use our model and approach. They also said it would never work because their clubs hate each other and will not work together. Imagine if they did do what we do. They have over twice as many people in their state as we do. They would crush everyone. The same goes for PA and OH. Everyone else would be fighting for 4th place.
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on July 30, 2016, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
Back to the topic of our results in Fargo over the past years. I think the main question is are we cresting an environment for our kids to be successful in Fargo. I am not sure that everyone has the same definition of what success should look like. I looked at some numbers on trackwrestling to compare our placement with other teams.
List of top teams and the points they scored and how many AA they had-
1. PA- 58- 15AA
2. MN- 52- 10AA
3. IL- 46- 11AA
4. MI- 39- 8AA
5. IA- 34- 8AA
6. MO- 30- 7AA
7. OH- 25- 5AA
8. AZ- 24- 4AA
9. CA- 22- 5AA
10. CO- 21- 4AA
11. UT- 21- 2AA
12. OK- 19- 4AA
13. IN- 17- 3AA
14. FL- 15- 2AA
15. WI- 15- 5AA
So we placed behind six teams that has fewer AA than we did. Does this make us worse than them? Three states had double digit AA's. Florida had 15 points just like us, they had two kids in the finals so they got 8 and 7 points for a total of 15. Did they have a better showing than us? Florida brought 22 kids to Junior Freestyle, we had 45. There winning percentage was .5287(24th out of all teams) and ours was .6198(6th out of all teams). We had the 6th best winning percentage and only 7 states brought more kids. I think that shows that we are moving in the right direction. Depth is better and our overall winning percentage has gone up over the last three years.
The Junior Freestyle tournament is very tough and a few matches can make the difference in how your team places. When we start comparing ourselves with other states we have to look at the numbers to see if everything is equal. Of the states that had 4 or 5 AA's, every one of them had at least one person in the finals and five of them had two or more.
I did not go back to past years on Trackwrestling to compere the numbers.
If everyone had a specific definition of what success looks like, it would make it easier for us to criticize our performance. I for one see that the current system seems to be working. The real question is how do we get our better kids to win more big matches. The numbers indicate that participating in the duals is not the answer. I am on board with Nutman that getting more kids to really train is the answer. There is a huge difference between going to Fargo and competing at Fargo.
I just want to point out every team that placed in front of us from SP's post above were at Junior duals and 6 of the teams had not 1 team but 2 teams.
Of the 120 AA in Junior Freestyle, only 56 of those kids earned AA status. Kneeslide posted these numbers earlier in the post. In my opinion Wisconsin is moving in the right direction. The camps and travel to regional events are making our state deeper. The numbers show this. The kids we are bringing to nationals are overall doing better. There is still room to improve but we are making progress.
I think we had five kids lose in the blood round. Lets say we won those five matches and each of those kids then placed 8th. That would have given us 20 points and 10 AA. Would that have been a success? Only 3 states had double digit AA's. We would have still been in 12th place but we would have had the third most AA's. Is that success? Give me your definition of success and then we can talk. While you are at it give me your plan to make our state better. The only thing I hear is that going to the duals will make us better. Show me the numbers.
I was talking to several coaches from Illinois and they all wished that their state would use our model and approach. They also said it would never work because their clubs hate each other and will not work together. Imagine if they did do what we do. They have over twice as many people in their state as we do. They would crush everyone. The same goes for PA and OH. Everyone else would be fighting for 4th place.
What if???? What if we wrestle in the duals and those what if kids in the blood round win and get eigth place? Are you truly suggesting that wrestling in a competive dual tournament like Junior duals isnt a good quality preparation for the grind of Fargo?
Do also truly believe that Illinios is looking at us and saying we should be more like Wisconsin and skip the duals? I doubt it.
You keep asking for everyone elses plan...yet so far no one from the wwf has actually told us their plan...they just let rumors fly and let everyone guess. Last year coaches were saying we were going back to schoolboy duals....this year the rumor is the coach says he doesnt like the reffing at duals so we are going to do a camp in Georgia and go to nationals there.....yet no one will confirm it.
So my plan....1) all teams go back to duals
2) revalute camp schedule so wrestlers arent showing up to Fargo stiff, sore, tired and some even hurt.
3) work with our colleges to get more college level coaches assisting at camps and coaching.
4) educate high school coaches and wrestlers of the importance of fargo and the duals.
5) get our elite clubs to work closer together to provide a more consistentcy in practice partners. ( some clubs are already doing this.)
Im not in the know like you are SP....so maybe some of these things are being done but bottom line is we are not competing with our neighbors, we are taking real recruiting oppoopportunities away from our atheletes by not attending duals and by not giving our atheletes every opportunity to get better we are not putting them in the best possition to be succesful at Fargo.....JMO
Quote from: aarons23 on July 30, 2016, 04:37:21 PM
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on July 30, 2016, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: SP on July 30, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
Back to the topic of our results in Fargo over the past years. I think the main question is are we cresting an environment for our kids to be successful in Fargo. I am not sure that everyone has the same definition of what success should look like. I looked at some numbers on trackwrestling to compare our placement with other teams.
List of top teams and the points they scored and how many AA they had-
1. PA- 58- 15AA
2. MN- 52- 10AA
3. IL- 46- 11AA
4. MI- 39- 8AA
5. IA- 34- 8AA
6. MO- 30- 7AA
7. OH- 25- 5AA
8. AZ- 24- 4AA
9. CA- 22- 5AA
10. CO- 21- 4AA
11. UT- 21- 2AA
12. OK- 19- 4AA
13. IN- 17- 3AA
14. FL- 15- 2AA
15. WI- 15- 5AA
So we placed behind six teams that has fewer AA than we did. Does this make us worse than them? Three states had double digit AA's. Florida had 15 points just like us, they had two kids in the finals so they got 8 and 7 points for a total of 15. Did they have a better showing than us? Florida brought 22 kids to Junior Freestyle, we had 45. There winning percentage was .5287(24th out of all teams) and ours was .6198(6th out of all teams). We had the 6th best winning percentage and only 7 states brought more kids. I think that shows that we are moving in the right direction. Depth is better and our overall winning percentage has gone up over the last three years.
The Junior Freestyle tournament is very tough and a few matches can make the difference in how your team places. When we start comparing ourselves with other states we have to look at the numbers to see if everything is equal. Of the states that had 4 or 5 AA's, every one of them had at least one person in the finals and five of them had two or more.
I did not go back to past years on Trackwrestling to compere the numbers.
If everyone had a specific definition of what success looks like, it would make it easier for us to criticize our performance. I for one see that the current system seems to be working. The real question is how do we get our better kids to win more big matches. The numbers indicate that participating in the duals is not the answer. I am on board with Nutman that getting more kids to really train is the answer. There is a huge difference between going to Fargo and competing at Fargo.
I just want to point out every team that placed in front of us from SP's post above were at Junior duals and 6 of the teams had not 1 team but 2 teams.
Of the 120 AA in Junior Freestyle, only 56 of those kids earned AA status. Kneeslide posted these numbers earlier in the post. In my opinion Wisconsin is moving in the right direction. The camps and travel to regional events are making our state deeper. The numbers show this. The kids we are bringing to nationals are overall doing better. There is still room to improve but we are making progress.
I think we had five kids lose in the blood round. Lets say we won those five matches and each of those kids then placed 8th. That would have given us 20 points and 10 AA. Would that have been a success? Only 3 states had double digit AA's. We would have still been in 12th place but we would have had the third most AA's. Is that success? Give me your definition of success and then we can talk. While you are at it give me your plan to make our state better. The only thing I hear is that going to the duals will make us better. Show me the numbers.
I was talking to several coaches from Illinois and they all wished that their state would use our model and approach. They also said it would never work because their clubs hate each other and will not work together. Imagine if they did do what we do. They have over twice as many people in their state as we do. They would crush everyone. The same goes for PA and OH. Everyone else would be fighting for 4th place.
What if???? What if we wrestle in the duals and those what if kids in the blood round win and get eigth place? Are you truly suggesting that wrestling in a competive dual tournament like Junior duals isnt a good quality preparation for the grind of Fargo?
Do also truly believe that Illinios is looking at us and saying we should be more like Wisconsin and skip the duals? I doubt it.
You keep asking for everyone elses plan...yet so far no one from the wwf has actually told us their plan...they just let rumors fly and let everyone guess. Last year coaches were saying we were going back to schoolboy duals....this year the rumor is the coach says he doesnt like the reffing at duals so we are going to do a camp in Georgia and go to nationals there.....yet no one will confirm it.
So my plan....1) all teams go back to duals
2) revalute camp schedule so wrestlers arent showing up to Fargo stiff, sore, tired and some even hurt.
3) work with our colleges to get more college level coaches assisting at camps and coaching.
4) educate high school coaches and wrestlers of the importance of fargo and the duals.
5) get our elite clubs to work closer together to provide a more consistentcy in practice partners. ( some clubs are already doing this.)
Im not in the know like you are SP....so maybe some of these things are being done but bottom line is we are not competing with our neighbors, we are taking real recruiting oppoopportunities away from our atheletes by not attending duals and by not giving our atheletes every opportunity to get better we are not putting them in the best possition to be succesful at Fargo.....JMO
1. Not going to happen anytime soon.
2. Camp practice schedule was set up for kids to arrive in Fargo ready to go. If kids were sore they were not wrestling on their own. They only had six practices in River Falls and very little live.
3. This year there were many college coaches on staff. Branvold, Ruschell, Schuck, Bera, Zwaska
4. This is always being done. Some people do not want to participate.
5. Already have this. Askrens, Owens, Steldt
1) this is a poor decision ....what does the membership want?
So then....what is the plan to improve? What is the plan to at least be competitive with our neighbors?
We were told the changes were made to improve our showing at Fargo. I was told personally from the head coach that if it didnt work we would go back to duals. Its been 3 years and there hasnt been any improvement and now the only word we get is "not going to happen anytime soon"?
aarons...answer SP's question...what is your definition of success? Because based on the numbers it appears that WI has improved over the last 3 years.
Quote from: dman on July 31, 2016, 09:13:28 AM
aarons...answer SP's question...what is your definition of success? Because based on the numbers it appears that WI has improved over the last 3 years.
I know I may be slow....but what numbers are pointing to improvement in the last 6 years?
Is it unreasonable to think success should be associated with competing with our neighbors? Others keep throwing around success....I want to see improvement. I want to give our atheletes the best shot at being seen and recruited. IMO...we take a huge opportunity away from our kids by not going to the duals. When a coach from Purdue says "Where was Wisconsin?" We are loosing a chance to get our kids infront of real opportunities. When every team who placed in front of us has at least 1 team at the duals and many had two, we are limiting our atheletes chances to get noticed. Also, its not just about AA....many kids get recruited who were never AA's, but they were seen on a couple different stages competing with some of the best in the country.
I do not buy for one second that we cannot get enough Wisconsin wrestlers
to field a competitive junior freestyle team. There are wrestlers that very much
want to represent Wisconsin at the national duals in freestyle. Having only one wrestler
finish in the top four at fargo is a clear example of not being successful. We need a coach that
has the desire to put a team together made up of wrestlers that want to compete, and
we should not have a leader of Wisconsin wrestling that tells us that kids would rather spend the summer
fishing so we are better off not sending a team. I cannot believe it. Send a team
to the junior national duals like we did when Dieringer was in high school. Marko Hunter
should have been at the national duals but Wisconsin failed him. Barry Davis did that
at Wisconsin also. I remember one year where Wisconsin was invited to attend the national duals
and Barry Davis turned it down because Wisconsin was so uncompetitive. As a spectator, I attended
and watched Ben Askren bump up a weight to take on Minnesota's Kish in an attempt for Missouri
to beat Minnesota at the national duals. Great action, but no Wisconsin there. Barry has
had a change of heart now and realizes that avoiding competition is a bad way to get better results.
*Hunter Marko
Quote from: billymurphy on July 31, 2016, 11:55:38 AM
I do not buy for one second that we cannot get enough Wisconsin wrestlers
to field a competitive junior freestyle team. There are wrestlers that very much
want to represent Wisconsin at the national duals in freestyle. Having only one wrestler
finish in the top four at fargo is a clear example of not being successful. We need a coach that
has the desire to put a team together made up of wrestlers that want to compete, and
we should not have a leader of Wisconsin wrestling that tells us that kids would rather spend the summer
fishing so we are better off not sending a team. I cannot believe it. Send a team
to the junior national duals like we did when Dieringer was in high school. Marko Hunter
should have been at the national duals but Wisconsin failed him. Barry Davis did that
at Wisconsin also. I remember one year where Wisconsin was invited to attend the national duals
and Barry Davis turned it down because Wisconsin was so uncompetitive. As a spectator, I attended
and watched Ben Askren bump up a weight to take on Minnesota's Kish in an attempt for Missouri
to beat Minnesota at the national duals. Great action, but no Wisconsin there. Barry has
had a change of heart now and realizes that avoiding competition is a bad way to get better results.
98
Pelot, Ty
105
Nachreiner, Bobby
112
Knops, Riley
112
Loos, Austin
119
McQuade, Ryan
125
Weber, Hunter
125
Garcia, Dominic
130
Durante, Zach
135
Thielke, Jesse
135
Kust, Jared
140
Allen, Thomas
140
Donar, Jarod
145
Lubeck, Rylan
145
Leibfourth, John
152
Dieringer, Alex
152
Gartner, Ryan
160
Benitz, Zak
160
Dolezal, Brad
171
Gray, Matt
171
Morrissey, Jacob
189
Peterson, Devin
189
Hughes, Shane
215
Birschbach, Justin
215
Dunlap, Roland
You think WI could field a team to compete with this team? 12 D1 wrestlers, some didn't pan out for various reasons but an Olympian, 3 time NCAA champ, several big 10 athletes. People keep bringing up when Dierenger was on the dual team, that was a ridiculously talented class of kids.
Couple posts behind...hang on...I will bring this back to the actual topic
Bman - (i appreciate the use of "douce") yep...you basically restated (in a clear way) what I have been getting at. The kid had multiple goals he was aiming at for his HS career. Some he hit, some he changed as time went on and some he did not attain. The coach did nothing to revisit those goals help guide the kids in the room towards those goals. Ultimately the goals setting aspect was a pointless exercise. But regarding the "pushy parent" aspect...
npope...maybe some parents feel the kid sets goals and then they expect the coach/teacher to do everything to assure the kid attains that goal. But I believe many involved parents are trying to work with the resources they have available to help attain the kids goals. Teachers and coaches are part of those resources. What is not seen is the parent who is doing things with the kid outside of the classroom and the practice room. I (and many parents) have no problem paying more. Parents are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for 3-4 months of training per kid for additional sports training. They are paying extra for additional music lessons and acting classes. And the pay tutors and learning centers for additional educational instruction. So I think for the engaged parent and kid paying is not the issue. Results and ownership may be...
finally...bigoil...great list...and I will wager to bet that list has a common element...a very involved parent behind them. This thread is about becoming competitive at the national level. Change can happen as a group. But in some cases (maybe many) once the HS folkstyle season is done the season is done. With a "push" from parents at the local level maybe there would be a growth of FR/GR instruction at the local level and more Wisconsin athletes would get involved. But that would require "pushy parents" being pushy...
And maybe it isn't needed. Those kids find the instruction they need elsewhere....
being a "pushy" parent and a supportive parent is 2 very different things but can be very close also.
also I have to ask this question.
If so many are unhappy with the way things are going for the kids at the national level and the state coaches or administration isnt listening,
can the wrestler/parents request a wavier to compete in another state that would maybe suit/fit the needs of the wrestler?
Would that be out of line to ask for a wavier?
I look at the south east part of the state and being so close to Chicago I am sure many of those wrestlers would benifit from competion in that area.
Also with quite a few wrestlers living on the western side of the state, with Iowa and Minnesota being so close for many of those, maybe the twin cities would be an option.
Looking at where training area are at, 2 on the eastern part of the state and 1 on the western part, travel for practices can/could be very difficult for some. Maybe I have the areas wrong but just asking.
I didnt see alot of kids from the western side of the state or more in the area of northwest. seemed to be more from the eastern side but that could also be a product of where the top end talent is at, at this time. No rip on anyone, please.
Maybe going to Fargo isnt the high light of ones wrestling career, maybe it is. Maybe some gave it a chance and that was good enough for them. Maybe baseball, summer jobs, family plans and such got in the way or were deemed more important at that time.
I dont have any answers, just alot of my own opinions and thoughts.
Aarons- We are going in circles because you refuse to give a specific example of what success should look like. You stated that it is more than just AA's. I believe that as well but people seem to judge success by the number we have or the place we take at Fargo. i gave examples that show we could have had 10 AA's and still not been in the top ten. I also gave the example that Florida only had two AA's and they placed ahead of us. Were they more successful than us this year? The numbers show that the winning percentage for WI has gone up from .510 to .620 over the past three years. We also did this while bringing more kids than 85% of the states.
If we are only concerned with the kids that are able to earn scholarships we should only bring 25 kids to Fargo and they have to be capable of placing or we will not bring them. Look at Michigan and New Jersey, low numbers! I for one do not want our state to only focus on the exceptional kids. The current system has shown that our overall level has gone up.
Billymurphy-
We failed Hunter Marko because we did not go to the duals. Did he attend one of the regionals? It is nice to know that some only want success for a few instead of everyone. History in our state showed that the kids that attended the duals did not always return to Fargo and sometimes they under performed at Fargo.
Quote from: SP on July 31, 2016, 09:07:17 PM
We also did this while bringing more kids than 855 of the states.
🤔
Starts to count states, runs out of fingers, starts over....
😜
Quote from: SP on July 31, 2016, 09:07:17 PM
Aarons- We are going in circles because you refuse to give a specific example of what success should look like. You stated that it is more than just AA's. I believe that as well but people seem to judge success by the number we have or the place we take at Fargo. i gave examples that show we could have had 10 AA's and still not been in the top ten. I also gave the example that Florida only had two AA's and they placed ahead of us. Were they more successful than us this year? The numbers show that the winning percentage for WI has gone up from .510 to .620 over the past three years. We also did this while bringing more kids than 855 of the states.
If we are only concerned with the kids that are able to earn scholarships we should only bring 25 kids to Fargo and they have to be capable of placing or we will not bring them. Look at Michigan and New Jersey, low numbers! I for one do not want our state to only focus on the exceptional kids. The current system has shown that our overall level has gone up.
Billymurphy-
We failed Hunter Marko because we did not go to the duals. Did he attend one of the regionals? It is nice to know that some only want success for a few instead of everyone. History in our state showed that the kids that attended the duals did not always return to Fargo and sometimes they under performed at Fargo.
I was pretty specific when I said success should have us competing with our neighbors....we are not. You know my main issue is the duals....but you refuse to address how you think they are not good for the state of Wisconsin when every other state that places in front of us are utilizing them. We have one of the lowest numbers of recruites going to D1 and 2 in the country....but we take opportunities away from our kids to be seen and make a name for themselves. We take a great opportunity away from our kids to get mat time on one of the biggest stages in high school wrestling that helps prepare them for the grind of Fargo. I have no doubt your satisfied....your son did great....good for him. Now take him and Dow ( whom was able to qualify for pan am and utilized it to prepare for Fargo) out of the equation and it pretty much a disaster.
For the record in 2012 in freestyle we took 43 atheletes and scored 14 points....so the improvement we are talking about is 2 more atheletes and 1 more team point.
Quote from: littleguy301 on July 31, 2016, 06:16:05 PM
being a "pushy" parent and a supportive parent is 2 very different things but can be very close also.
Yep littleguy I agree...problem is the other person's perception. A supportive parent in ones eyes may be a pushy parent in an others.
Quote from: aarons23 on July 31, 2016, 11:21:33 PM
For the record in 2012 in freestyle we took 43 athletes and scored 14 points....so the improvement we are talking about is 2 more atheletes and 1 more team point.
For the record in 2012 our winning percentage was .5086. Overall record was 88-85 and we had 11 kids go 0-2.
In 2016 our winning percentage was .6198. Overall record of 150-92 with only 3 kids going 0-2.
I call that improvement.
That year at the duals we placed 6th. We brought 21 kids and 14 of those also went to Fargo. Only two of those kids placed, Matt Gray and Justin Karluka. Hunter Weber and seth Leigel were the two others that placed and they did not attend the duals. Other notables that did not place but attended the duals, Crone, JJ McClennand, Jared Donar, Scharenbrock, Nick Becker, Jacob Stillings, Aaron Rothwell, Jacob Morrisey, and Billy Prochniski. Ryan Gartner, Mitchell Freidman and Newton Schmerchek did not attend Fargo after doing the duals.
So as i see it, we are sending about the same amount of kids and placing in the same range. The improvement is our record is drastically improved as a team and we have only a few kids going 0-2. I say that is improvement. The next step is to get more kids on the podium and keep our numbers at this level or higher.
I also understand that you like the duals and feel it is important to attend. These numbers show that it really did not do much for our kids. We can go back and forth about year to year results but in the end we are getting better as a state. building depth is a must to improve our state as a whole. Having a program in place that only serves the elite is wrong and that is not how we operate and i for one am glad we do not!
Like I stated earlier, we had 4 AA's and Florida had 2 but they placed one point ahead of us. I do not see them as being more successful than us.
i did not say that our kids were not prepared for Fargo. I feel they were prepared because of the training and competition program set up by the WWF coaching coordinator. We had lots of kids attend either the Central or northern Regional as well as the UWW World team trials in Akron. There was also several training camp weekends and one day camps throughout the spring.
The improvement of the overall team is up from past years. As I said in a previous post, the next step is to get the five kids that lost in the blood round to win those matches and to get others higher on the podium. One of the reasons that Minnesota does so well is that 75% of their population lives in the St. Paul/Minneapolis area and they are able to get more of their better kids together to train. (same as Illinois with Chicago) This has allowed their depth to increase and thus their better kids get better. We are headed in that direction but we have a bigger hurdle with our population spread out more than our neighbors.
Lets not forget to ask the kids what they think! I think the training and prep needs to be fun and I think most of the athletes that did both the duals and Fargo will tell you they had more fun at the duals.
Is it not possible to train hard for the duals and then back off and heal and rest up for Fargo to really peak at the right time!
Need a training regimen that allows these athletes to peak at the end of February, heal up a bit and rest and then bring them back and train in new styles with the goal to peak at Fargo.
I would think that the duals could easily be worked into a training regimen and I would use the duals as training (and a fun time) and less about the results because I would not want them at peak condition at that time.
Costs have been brought up as a factor and that is an unknown to me as an outsider.
Quote from: getyourpoints on August 01, 2016, 12:11:33 PM
I lived a big portion of my life in the twin cities and it can take just as long to drive from the Norther suburbs to the southern suburbs as it does from Milwaukee to Madison. So that exuse I hear all the time is a none factor.
It is a factor for some parents and families, It may not have been for you but it is for plenty. Where do kids from Phillips, or Ashland, Rhinelander go? That is just a small sample. Your kidding yourself if you do not believe this is an issue.
I'm not a general "poster" but someone made me aware of this thread. I've coached at Fargo and Duals. Enjoyed it. Kids were always tremendous and would many times surprise you with how well they did when it mattered most. Success at Fargo is ultimately AA. Many other experiences are invaluable for each kid and even the 0-2's can gain a tremendous amount of growth in wrestling and maturity.
Wisconsin is fighting a battle of population or lack thereof. Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, and Jersey have greater centers of population in a small area vs. the numbers in our state. The wrestling schools are jammed.
We also have some very athletic wrestlers playing football, baseball, etc in our schools. Specialization is taking place across the country and while we wish to have kids well rounded and play multiple sports, more and more kids at high levels are wrestling year round.
We do have kids in Pinnacle in the metro (Twin Cities) and Ben & Max are doing an outstanding job in the south but Wisconsin is a small blip compared to the wrestling powers in the country. Kevin Black was not able to draw numbers to the club in River Falls over time because kids have other things they do and small numbers willing to commit at the level needed to become elite.
Being a Fargo AA has more to do with the sustained coaching and practice over the year, and career, and not the 3-5 day camps that are designed to harden the body for competition for a 3-day tournament.
There are some great ideas in the posts. Please attend the WWF meetings and have meaningful dialogue with the leaders. They put their hearts into Wisconsin Wrestling and of course want the best for all kids in our state but also the best for the State of Wisconsin Wrestling.
Waivers to wrestle for other states? Simple solution.........open enroll to Minnesota or Illinois and participate in their state hs tournament.
College recruiting is a whole different dynamic. The personal connection between the kids and coaches is the most important aspect. Every state has recruits go out of state to college but with fewer kids, fewer division one athletes, it is more noticeable here.
For those of you that love data, please track Fargo All Americans that become college AA's much like you see kids that were kids state place winners on the podium as HS wrestlers. Not saying that kids can't develop but the names on the plaques seldom change.
Best wishes to Mr. Provisor and Thielke as they make a run at being the best in the world!
WOW,,,,really want trying to open a can of worm. I just asked a simple question. I dont know how it works nor do I really care about the wavier aspect.
first, I was trying in some post back not to put the blame on the coach in the story, I was going to use that for dont blame the Fargo coaches.
I think they all do a great job, those Fargo coaches. I doubt think any of these except the Wisconsin head coach get paid for anything.
The WWF does a top line job with the state folkstyle series in March. I think it is a well run tournament to say the least from regionals to state.
I think the Dells is run top notch also. Very enjoyable to go there to watch, coach and share in the enjoyment of wrestlers and parents that you know.
I doubt it is the coaches fault the wrestlers may or may not live up to some peoples goals. Coaching is a tough avenue to go down, never right and always to blame if something doesnt go as planned.
Once again WOW! not sure where this is going to go but some need to take a step back and take a breath.
It is odd that Minnesota, Iowa, Ohio, New Jersey, Michigan, Illinois, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania and California have not picked up on Wisconsin's secret formula for
success is by NOT competing in the national duals. Just dumb luck those teams finished ahead of Wisconsin at Fargo for sure.
I listened to Ben Askren video about Fargo going 0-2 his freshman year, placing I believe 4th his junior year and winning it his senior year. Funny think in that video was I didn't hear him credit the Duals for his success but rather his hard work.
You can say look at our neighbors until your blue in the face, that doesn't give you cause and effect.
SP showed some pretty incredible stats on the improvements of the entire WI contingent. Per the number of kids heading to D1, I would suspect this is a slight down turn in our very top echelon. As he said, if we get a couple more wins, we have more points and AA.
I do not think attending the duals is going to make any significant positive change in Fargo results
I do not think attending the duals is going to have any significant NEGATIVE change in Fargo results.
I do know that the wrestlers absolutely love the duals format and have a lot more fun at that event competing as a team and that should count for something. A low percentage of all wrestlers that attend Fargo earn scholarship money! That does not have to be the sole focus. Having some fun and developing some awesome friendships goes a long ways more for the great majority of athletes.
Quote from: getyourpoints on August 02, 2016, 08:07:19 AM
Big oil,
Actually if you listen to Ben Askrens pod cast on getting recruited he says the duals are a very big step.
Also if you look at the over all attendance at Fargo it was up a couple hundred kids, so you are getting more kids out to the tournament for the first time so your first couple rounds are going to be diluted with beginner talent so a stronger winning % would be expected. The top 20 teams should have experienced the same result.
Also are numbers being up (WI partisapents) is in step with the over all tournament.
We have had the same exact results for 6 years the numbers just simple don't lie.
Facts are facts.
Actually, you didn't post any facts, just poor English and assumptions.
Duals are fun, but saying they will lead to better performance at the national tournament is subjective. It always will be and will always vary based on the individual. Consistent training across the team, with the ultimate goal to peak for the national tournament, is the key. Duals are a unique experience, but if there was a cheaper option to get more mat time against quality competition in preparation for the national tournament, I would rather go that route. Attending both duals and individual is not easy for every family. I like the current situation we have in trying to get all the guys on the national team in the same practice room throughout the summer and going through similar training. The more the training efforts can align, similar to an actual team that trains together each day, the more transparent the results of the system will be.
Quote from: hammen on August 02, 2016, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: getyourpoints on August 02, 2016, 08:07:19 AM
Big oil,
Actually if you listen to Ben Askrens pod cast on getting recruited he says the duals are a very big step.
Also if you look at the over all attendance at Fargo it was up a couple hundred kids, so you are getting more kids out to the tournament for the first time so your first couple rounds are going to be diluted with beginner talent so a stronger winning % would be expected. The top 20 teams should have experienced the same result.
Also are numbers being up (WI partisapents) is in step with the over all tournament.
We have had the same exact results for 6 years the numbers just simple don't lie.
Facts are facts.
Actually, you didn't post any facts, just poor English and assumptions.
Duals are fun, but saying they will lead to better performance at the national tournament is subjective. It always will be and will always vary based on the individual. Consistent training across the team, with the ultimate goal to peak for the national tournament, is the key. Duals are a unique experience, but if there was a cheaper option to get more mat time against quality competition in preparation for the national tournament, I would rather go that route. Attending both duals and individual is not easy for every family. I like the current situation we have in trying to get all the guys on the national team in the same practice room throughout the summer and going through similar training. The more the training efforts can align, similar to an actual team that trains together each day, the more transparent the results of the system will be.
So Hammen... correct me if I am wrong but I am sure I seen you post that you were excited about moving to Ohio and becoming part of that wrestling culture....congrats sounds like a great opportunity for you. Are you going to be lobbying Ohio to drop the duals like they did in Wisconsin?
It is odd that Minnesota, Iowa, Ohio, New Jersey, Michigan, Illinois, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania and California have not picked up on Wisconsin's secret formula for
success is by NOT competing in the national duals. Just dumb luck those teams finished ahead of Wisconsin at Fargo for sure.
The fact of the matter is quite simple. The reason the above states have more AA's is because they have a lot more talent than WI. That is a fact that cannot be argued. WI is nowhere on the same level with the above states.
Aaron - I wouldn't lobby anything. If I was asked to give my opinion on the matter I would. Ohio is very disaggregated the way the clubs operate and the way they approach the summer tournaments. Many wrestlers/coaches I spoke with were intrigued with the way WI is approaching the organized training of the national team throughout the summer, and how the clubs are working together. They thought it would be a better approach to what they currently have to the national tournament (which is really what it used to be in WI when I was in high school). I'm not sure how feasible it is to have those trainings and the duals, along with the individual tournament. I think it would really be one or the other - and it seems more valuable to have that collective training. The state of OH is very spread out, similar to WI, so it was interesting to hear the thoughts of the coaches/wrestlers on this topic.
Quote from: hammen on August 02, 2016, 09:54:44 AM
Aaron - I wouldn't lobby anything. If I was asked to give my opinion on the matter I would. Ohio is very disaggregated the way the clubs operate and the way they approach the summer tournaments. Many wrestlers/coaches I spoke with were intrigued with the way WI is approaching the organized training of the national team throughout the summer, and how the clubs are working together. They thought it would be a better approach to what they currently have to the national tournament (which is really what it used to be in WI when I was in high school). I'm not sure how feasible it is to have those trainings and the duals, along with the individual tournament. I think it would really be one or the other - and it seems more valuable to have that collective training. The state of OH is very spread out, similar to WI, so it was interesting to hear the thoughts of the coaches/wrestlers on this topic.
Not sure I understand the one or the other mentality.... you dont think we can train the same way and still do a dual? I have no doubt other states like our organizational skills.....they have for a long time....even when you were in high school. But I highly doubt that includes dropping of duals for them.
What's the problem??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiB9L3dG-Aw
We are not OH, PA, IL, NJ or CA....so why should we try to be exactly like them?? We would be absolutely horrible if we tried to emulate everything exactly like those other states....we are not those states for a million different reasons. Our history in terms of sports is way different than those states for a million different reasons. I could go on and on....but bottom line is we are doing what is right for WI!!! We are in fact seeing improvement. We have good leadership and coaches that are constantly looking at how we can make WI better...period.
Funny how simple minded people can be to even try and imply that results at Fargo, or lack there of, have everything to do with the duals. If people think it is a great experience for the kids....great....it probably is. But to try and use the duals as a way to draw conclusions about Fargo results, the intentions of the federation, and/or the quality and qualification of our coaches in our state is completely ridiculous.
Quote from: aarons23 on August 02, 2016, 10:55:11 AM
Quote from: hammen on August 02, 2016, 09:54:44 AM
Aaron - I wouldn't lobby anything. If I was asked to give my opinion on the matter I would. Ohio is very disaggregated the way the clubs operate and the way they approach the summer tournaments. Many wrestlers/coaches I spoke with were intrigued with the way WI is approaching the organized training of the national team throughout the summer, and how the clubs are working together. They thought it would be a better approach to what they currently have to the national tournament (which is really what it used to be in WI when I was in high school). I'm not sure how feasible it is to have those trainings and the duals, along with the individual tournament. I think it would really be one or the other - and it seems more valuable to have that collective training. The state of OH is very spread out, similar to WI, so it was interesting to hear the thoughts of the coaches/wrestlers on this topic.
Not sure I understand the one or the other mentality.... you dont think we can train the same way and still do a dual? I have no doubt other states like our organizational skills.....they have for a long time....even when you were in high school. But I highly doubt that includes dropping of duals for them.
Not all of their kids do both duals and individual. There isn't enough room for everyone to compete on the duals team (50+ kids) and not everyone can afford both duals and individual, as well as travel to the national team practices. You have duals and it adds another expense, as well as breaks up the training for the other kids who aren't attending the duals.
Quote from: hammen on August 02, 2016, 01:25:29 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 02, 2016, 10:55:11 AM
Quote from: hammen on August 02, 2016, 09:54:44 AM
Aaron - I wouldn't lobby anything. If I was asked to give my opinion on the matter I would. Ohio is very disaggregated the way the clubs operate and the way they approach the summer tournaments. Many wrestlers/coaches I spoke with were intrigued with the way WI is approaching the organized training of the national team throughout the summer, and how the clubs are working together. They thought it would be a better approach to what they currently have to the national tournament (which is really what it used to be in WI when I was in high school). I'm not sure how feasible it is to have those trainings and the duals, along with the individual tournament. I think it would really be one or the other - and it seems more valuable to have that collective training. The state of OH is very spread out, similar to WI, so it was interesting to hear the thoughts of the coaches/wrestlers on this topic.
Not sure I understand the one or the other mentality.... you dont think we can train the same way and still do a dual? I have no doubt other states like our organizational skills.....they have for a long time....even when you were in high school. But I highly doubt that includes dropping of duals for them.
Not all of their kids do both duals and individual. There isn't enough room for everyone to compete on the duals team (50+ kids) and not everyone can afford both duals and individual, as well as travel to the national team practices. You have duals and it adds another expense, as well as breaks up the training for the other kids who aren't attending the duals.
Not all of any states are doing both....but they seem to make it work. Break in training to go to duals???? So you just schedule camps around duals....no less training and no more training. Adding the expense is a problem by all states and the competitive states are making it work. I certainly believe the finances can be handled in Wisconsin. There are enough supporters of wrestling in this state to make it happen.
Quote from: glorydays on July 26, 2016, 06:31:58 PM
My 10 yr old wrestled freestyle and Greco for the first time this year. He really enjoyed it. It was hard for us to find a club that was close and started its session when the freestyle/Greco started(most sessions seemed to overlap with folkstyle). Does the WWF promote these styles before they enter the Schoolboy division? It would be great if they did. (Maybe I'm not looking in the right places or not on an email list) Just looking for info.
In the 8 pages of "I'm right, you're wrong" posts, I hope someone the know answered this post via PM. If not, many clubs start Freestyle/Greco right after the folkstyle season and go to at least to Freestyle/Greco state if not, longer. Freestyle/Greco state tournament in the Dells is a great experience and highly recommended. Feel free to let us know what area if Wi you live in and I'm sure someone on this site can pipe up some places to start for you.
Below are the Fargo Results for freestyle and the end of the year team rankings across the country for folkstyle. There is a correlation.
Our best high school teams are not in the top 50. Do we expect that we are magically going to appear in the top 5 at Fargo? (Although Shakopee, MN is noticeably absent because they contributed to MN's cause, but are not on the list below).
What did our athletes who AA'd do to prepare? My guess is they practiced a minimum of 10 hours per week. At some or all of those practices they had partners who could push them to expose weaknesses. They conditioned or lifted weights another 8-10 hours per week. Finally, they worked with coaches who knew how to train athletes to peak at the right time and had specialized training in either freestyle or greco.
From an individual stand-point, some have pointed out the connection between youth tournament results and Fargo. Let's take that a step further- Let's look at some of the Top Pre-Season and Post-Season Results across the country. If you follow wrestling on a national level, many of the same names consistently appear; however, the athletes who are near the top their senior year are not always near the top their freshman year. There are many athletes who are choosing pre-high school season events and post-high school season events. Those who do well are nationally ranked. I would now take that a step further to say it is not just the tournaments in which they participate; rather, it is the preparation they spend. It is not the time they spend training, it is what they do during the training.
If you listen to the interviews and the back stories about the best guys in the country and what they do, it is crazy. If our athletes want to compete at that level consistently, crazy has to become normal.
Here is the data for the correlation-
PA had 7 ranked teams by Intermat ...followed by IL with 6, MN-5, OH-5, IA-3, MO-3, MI-2.
Freestyle Finish at Fargo
1. PA 49 58.0
2. MN 67 52.0
3. IL 82 46.0
4. MI 23 39.0
5. IA 57 34.0
6. MO 38 30.0
7. OH 55 25.0
Rankings at the end of the year according to Intermat:
1 Blair Academy New Jersey
2 Wyoming Seminary Pennsylvania
3 St. Paris Graham Ohio
4 Bergen Catholic New Jersey
5 Buchanan California
6 Bethlehem Catholic Pennsylvania
7 St. Edward Ohio
8 Oak Park River Forest Illinois
9 Clovis California
10 Belle Vernon Area Pennsylvania
11 Tuttle Oklahoma
12 Lake Highland Prep Florida
13 Poway California
14 Apple Valley Minnesota
15 Marmion Academy Illinois
16 Carl Sandburg Illinois
17 Washington Illinois
18 Mt. Carmel Illinois
19 St. Michael-Albertville Minnesota
20 Elyria Ohio
21 Nazareth Pennsylvania
22 Boyertown Pennsylvania
23 Malvern Prep Pennsylvania
24 Delta Ohio
25 Archer Georgia
26 Allen Texas
27 Kasson-Mantorville Minnesota
28 Camden County Georgia
29 Warren Central Indiana
30 Southeast Polk Iowa
31 West Des Moines Valley Iowa
32 Fort Dodge Iowa
33 Brownsburg Indiana
34 Pomona Colorado
35 Anoka Minnesota
36 Park Hill Missouri
37 Olentangy Liberty Ohio
38 Pueblo County Colorado
39 Montini Catholic Illinois
40 Hilton New York
41 Platte County Missouri
42 Long Beach New York
43 Neosho Missouri
44 Goddard Kansas
45 Choctaw Oklahoma
Quote from: TeamJ on August 02, 2016, 02:10:48 PM
Quote from: glorydays on July 26, 2016, 06:31:58 PM
My 10 yr old wrestled freestyle and Greco for the first time this year. He really enjoyed it. It was hard for us to find a club that was close and started its session when the freestyle/Greco started(most sessions seemed to overlap with folkstyle). Does the WWF promote these styles before they enter the Schoolboy division? It would be great if they did. (Maybe I'm not looking in the right places or not on an email list) Just looking for info.
In the 8 pages of "I'm right, you're wrong" posts, I hope someone the know answered this post via PM. If not, many clubs start Freestyle/Greco right after the folkstyle season and go to at least to Freestyle/Greco state if not, longer. Freestyle/Greco state tournament in the Dells is a great experience and highly recommended. Feel free to let us know what area if Wi you live in and I'm sure someone on this site can pipe up some places to start for you.
SO who is right and who is wrong?
Quote from: nutman on August 02, 2016, 02:11:02 PM
PA had 7 ranked teams by Intermat ...followed by IL with 6, MN-5, OH-5, IA-3, MO-3, MI-2.
Rankings at the end of the year according to Intermat:
1 Blair Academy New Jersey
2 Wyoming Seminary Pennsylvania
3 St. Paris Graham Ohio
4 Bergen Catholic New Jersey
5 Buchanan California
6 Bethlehem Catholic Pennsylvania
7 St. Edward Ohio
8 Oak Park River Forest Illinois
9 Clovis California
10 Belle Vernon Area Pennsylvania
11 Tuttle Oklahoma
12 Lake Highland Prep Florida
13 Poway California
14 Apple Valley Minnesota
15 Marmion Academy Illinois
16 Carl Sandburg Illinois
17 Washington Illinois
18 Mt. Carmel Illinois
19 St. Michael-Albertville Minnesota
20 Elyria Ohio
21 Nazareth Pennsylvania
22 Boyertown Pennsylvania
23 Malvern Prep Pennsylvania
24 Delta Ohio
25 Archer Georgia
26 Allen Texas
27 Kasson-Mantorville Minnesota
28 Camden County Georgia
29 Warren Central Indiana
30 Southeast Polk Iowa
31 West Des Moines Valley Iowa
32 Fort Dodge Iowa
33 Brownsburg Indiana
34 Pomona Colorado
35 Anoka Minnesota
36 Park Hill Missouri
37 Olentangy Liberty Ohio
38 Pueblo County Colorado
39 Montini Catholic Illinois
40 Hilton New York
41 Platte County Missouri
42 Long Beach New York
43 Neosho Missouri
44 Goddard Kansas
45 Choctaw Oklahoma
Nut - I'm not disagreeing with your Fargo case, but it made me think of something different. It really gets in my crawl how Flow, Intermat, etc.. don't give any love to WI teams.
Last year at (Cheesehead) Stoughton placed ahead of 2 of the teams and on he heals of another two. I believe last year Hudson, Kaukana, and Stoughton all could of went head to head with the bottom 20 in this list and would of won many of those duals.
So then you look at this upcoming year and returning points for those teams from Cheesehead alone, you have
Intermat
Rank# Cheese# Team Returning Pts. for 2016/2017
41 6. Platte County 258
7. Stoughton 310.5
30 8. Southeast Polk 154.5
39 9. Montini Catholic 175
My point is other than maybe the top 25 that face each other in duals, the bottom 20-25 seem to make the list more out of reputation, politics, and lobbying then maybe results. Anyway - I argue that last year we could of had 2-3 in the top 50 team list and this year I'm certainly lobbying for Stoughton to be there just by statistics alone.
Ivan,
The original post is an observation. This is a right vs. right issue. I believe there are a lot of good points made. What really excites me is the fact Wisconsin hosted School Boy Nationals, and we had more athletes participate than usual. My hope is they carry that experience next year into Northern Plains, UWW-Cadets, and Fargo. As adults, I'm hopeful we can provide the most effective opportunities to "lead the horses to water and they choose to drink it."
I am not great at promotion, but I believe we need to promote all of these things more at our HS state tournament. The few short years ago that my kids were in this, we did northern plains, Fargo, NWCA, and every big tournament we could find. I never would have known about it though unless I researched and personally found places to take my kids. Not all parents can/will do that.
Posted from Duffy Brelsford:
I would like to share my observations in regards to the comments on the topic that participating in the duals prepares wrestlers for Fargo. For over 30 years I served as the Juniors Director for the WWF, so I have some experience on this topic.
The present WWF plan is now far better and makes more sense than what we had been doing in the past.
There are two reasons for going to the duals:
#1 To either have the Wisconsin team win it or place as high as possible.
#2 To have our best wrestlers learn from good competition.
Putting a team together is not as easy as it sounds.
The potential team members are selected on the basis of their placement at the state freestyle/Greco tournament. The team is then set and a commitment is made in late April or early May. Often circumstances can change in a high schoolers life between that time and the beginning of the duals 10 weeks later. Due to these variables, it is not unusual to have one or more wrestlers decide they cannot honor their commitment.
The competition at the duals is so intense we often found we would have to forfeit a weight or would have to juggle the set line-up due to a last minute defection. The result is your #1 objective is probably now eliminated. When that happens, the result is your team falls into a lesser pool and your #2 objective is probably gone to. Having two teams is not the answer either. If you had capable backups, would the wrestler and his parents be happy to pay the same price in money and time commitment as the starter and then get a few matches or none at all?
As far as using the duals to prepare for Fargo.
This only works if the dual team members show up for Fargo. The last year we did both (2012) only 70% of the dual team members showed up for Fargo. This percent is pretty representative of previous years where the range was 50-70% showing up for Fargo. In addition, to the aforementioned 70% figure for 2012, only 30% of the place winners at the state tournament bothered to show up to make the national team going to Fargo. The "no-show" wrestlers had had enough and I can't blame them.
And finally, my last reason for not doing both the duals and Fargo; the calendar. This year the duals were on June 22 and Fargo was on July 18 and high school football starts on August 2. Where has the wrestler's summer gone? After Fargo, that's only 1 or 2 weeks before it all starts over again. There are individuals that can do this, but not many as the vast majority of high school wrestlers want some down time during the summer.
And by the way, using SP's figures on the number of AA Wisconsin had, I think that a Beau Breske presence would have helped Wisconsin's AA numbers and the team's final placement. All in all I believe the WWF's showing indicates the present system makes complete sense and is working just fine.
(Editors note: Duffy Brelsford managed the WWF Junior Division as Director for 30 years. He is a member of the Wisconsin Wrestling Coaches Association George Martin Hall of Fame and the Wisconsin Chapter of the National Hall of Fame. He coached High School State Championship teams in Wisconsin AND California and was involved in the development and coaching of two NCAA Champions and an Olympic Wrestling Team member.)
I agree with most of your points except #1. Too often outsiders think in MN the wrestlers all come from the twin cities. This used to be the argument when we had the MN/WI Classic. MN has/had many wrestlers from outstate areas then and now participating.
The truth is, WI has a larger population albeit only a bit.
WI actually has more large centers of population than MN. MN has the twin cities, Duluth (the least wrestling in MN comes from this area, no disrespect Duluth), and Rochester.
WI has Milwaukee (greater Milwaukee area over 2,000,000), Madison (over 1/2 million), think about just the Fox River Valley. Oshkosh area and others.
MN wrestlers come from all over the state. Distances are greater than one thinks. Travel time from the twin cities to STMA can be an hour. It can be a bit more to Anoka (I am using some teams listed in the latest HS team rankings).
Just trying to point this out. It is unproductive to incorrectly assess a factor that might affect success.
Quote from: getyourpoints on August 02, 2016, 11:33:02 AM
Wrestling03,
Unfortunately you are probably right, but why are they more talented then us? PA only sent "1" state champ to Fargo and they still crushed it. There were hardly any kids ranked in the top 20 even at Fargo according to recent articles written by InterMat.
So what is the difference between us and some of the states you listed with a similar population? I understand we may not ever keep up to a PA, Ohio, NJ,IL or a CA but why cant we keep up to an Iowa or MN they have a smaller population then WI?
I am in no position to offer why personally, I am interested in what others say on this topic.
Things that have been listed just on this post.
1. We are not a metro based state like MN. (is Iowa or Ohio)
2. Our kids play other sports. (don't they else where)
3. Our clubs don't work together. (in IL they are at war with one another)
4. Cost (other states pay more but in WI we are not willing to pay those fee's)
5. Duals (WI hasn't enjoyed success at both dual's and Fargo as other may have)
(as already mentioned)Some of the non powerhouse states are sending more wrestlers than they did five years ago so now
many wrestlers are getting a few easy early round matches and that is where you get the slightly higher winning percentage,
even though the final results of the Junior freestyle have shown no improvement at all since the skipping of the national duals.
You claim I am a simple minded person and I am I am aware of that, but I know that the
numbers at Fargo have not improved by avoiding the duals so the alternative is not great. And I think my suggestion is valid. Why can we not
send just one team to the junior national duals in freestyle? How can there not be enough money for one team for the
best dual meet high school event in the country? We just need a coach and enough money. I am confident
that WI can field a competitive team that will finish top 8.
Tom, I agree with you completely; however, maybe we were just the unfortunate ones but my son was not asked to go on the dual team and a wrestler he beat was. So not always is it decided by the state freestyle. This may have been a one time situation, and money talked? Fargo results answered though.....
That was directly from Duffy Brelsford...not Tom. Id say he's a little more qualified than some of the posters on here regarding the duals....whether they think so or not.
With so many strong opinions regarding Fargo results I've been reluctant to add my thoughts. This topic has jumped around with many different observations and opinions. Personally I'm very appreciative of anyone that takes off time from their jobs and provides any sort of assistance in helping provide these experiences for our young adults. At the same time, we as a state have room for improvement.
Some observations:
Participation in the DualsSaying it's too much money, too much of a commitment or too many of our wrestlers fail to show up are all obstacles that can be overcome. Over the past few years we've had many people from the state provide awesome opportunities for our wrestlers including participating in out of state dual teams. Many of the wrestlers I know who made All-American at Fargo this year have said that going to the schoolboy duals was one of the most memorable experiences of their wrestling career. I personally believe this would better prepare our higher level wrestlers for Fargo but have no problem being wrong. But the reason's I've often heard for us not participating usually include cost, lack of interest, we didn't like the officiating, our wrestlers can't handle the busy schedule, etc. I agree, the duals are not for everyone but I disagree that there isn't enough interest in the state to put together a full competitive team.
Camp prior to FargoMy son was a first year cadet. Going into the camps my son was told by several returning Fargo competitors that the camp prior to competition was not something they enjoyed and said they felt more tired than normal going into competition. My son had no issues, however there were several parents at Fargo who told me their wrestler seemed abnormally tired at the tournament. One first year Fargo parent told me their son asked if he could sleep at his parents hotel because his roommates weren't wanting to go to bed the night before the tournament. One parent from Colorado told me that this past year they didn't offer state sponsored camps but instead suggested their wrestlers attend area clubs to help them prepare. I do not know what every state does to prepare their wrestlers nor do I suggest I know what the best course of action for our state but I do think it's worth evaluating the strategies of other states. What are the benchmarks of "staying the course" until we decide that maybe the course/program we are on is not best for the state?
Fargo Planning
- On the second day of Cadet Greco at 8:05 AM our wrestlers still had not left the hotel for the tournament. Wrestling starts at 9:00 AM and mats are cleared at 8:50 AM. By the time our wrestlers got to the arena and dressed, they literally had 15 - 20 minutes to warm up prior to clearing the mat. It was extremely frustrating that our wrestlers were so late and not given time for a good warm up.
- The night before weigh ins one of the wrestlers brought a scale for their personal use in the hotel (which he allowed everyone to use). This same wrestler ended up leaving the hotel with his family so he could make weight (taking his scale with him). According to several of the other wrestlers there were no other test scales available for our Cadet Greco wrestlers the night before weigh ins.
- I know many other states provided group meals for their wrestlers. Even after weigh ins I noticed some states had organized meals, while our Wisconsin kids had some needing to go back to the hotel to eat, some needing to go buy food and some who brought something with them. Other states had a meal waiting for their wrestlers right after weigh ins--giving them increased time to warm up and prepare for the tournament. Would having a meal prepared for our wrestlers save them time and money?
Communication- The wrestler who left with his family the night before weigh ins was significantly over his target weight and having difficulty reaching it. When his family took him from the hotel no adult/coach supervision could be located for the wrestlers. I personally helped the family looking for a coach as did several other wrestlers--none of them knew the room number where a coach might be staying or how to reach a coach in the event of an emergency.
- Good and frequent communication keeps our families engaged. Many of you have jobs that require you to get your vacation time approved in December/January for the coming year. We need to start preparing our state's wrestling families for Fargo then before vacations are booked. Waiting until after high school state is too long. I can't count how many times I had another parent contact me asking for clarification about a camp, Fargo, if meals were provided, how to register, the Team Snap program, wrestle offs, etc. Although most of us on here check this forum often and are familiar with the WWF website, most wrestling families in the state do not. One parent of a wrestler who placed at Fargo didn't even know about the state's camps until they were nearly completed.
Favoritism?- I had one parent of a junior aged wrestler tell me he witnessed what he thought was a lot of favoritism among some coaches. I personally have no opinion regarding this issue however if the perception of favoritism exists among some parents then that it is something that might need to be addressed. This parent told me that for some matches he noticed there would be several coaches gathered near a mat watching a particular wrestler while another wrestler would be a few mats over searching for someone to coach them. That same parent told me he was sitting next to one coach when a wrestler asked the coach if he would coach his match and that coach apologized and declined saying he was waiting for one of "his" wrestlers. This particular issue seems to be common among many states as I spoke to a parent from another state who told me that their wrestler complained that the elite club coaches provide more attention in practices and competition to their paying customers than they do to all the kids on their state team.
Uniforms?- I heard several wrestlers make jokes or comments that many of the other teams had better uniforms than Wisconsin. I know (and agree) that cost is a major factor. Maybe it's time for the state to start price shopping for other suppliers rather than using All American who I've found is generally more expensive for uniform gear?
Our state's mission statement...
Wisconsin Wrestling Federation, guided by USA Wrestling, provides quality opportunities for its members to achieve their full human and athletic potential. Wisconsin Wrestling Federation will strive to be USA Wrestling's best state organization.
As of right now we as a state can do more. I hope next year that the WWF does seek after quality opportunities (such as dual events) for it's wrestlers and also has defined goals for our athletes on an individual basis and as a state. As a state we need measurable goals and those goals need to be clearly stated. We then work to make it happen. With so many people commenting on Wisconsin's success or failure, no one seems to know what our specific goals were or how we measure our success.
I personally do not like to use names on here (unless it is my own), and will not use other kids names. Notice the match you are talking about is a forfeit, so I believe the wrestler, and dad were told something else. Point is, when it all unfolded the father was told straight out that there were politics involved.
It all worked out for the best and college is now paid, the only point was, things like that, and the fact that he wrestled with no coach in his corner while 7 coaches watched a kid at the next match, could be why some kids are staying away. If you want to get Wisconsin's best kids, go after all of them, not just the big names. In HS wrestling you need every kid to fill a team, it's the same idea, you do not know who will end up on top.
I really hope the committee and coaches adopt a philosophy of continuous improvement. There is always time to reflect and enforce changes for the better. I hope the favoritism and politics are stamped out of this in the near future. The kids that are able to qualify for this honor of competing in Nationals deserve better. This for some may be a once in a lifetime experience we should want to make it as memorable as possible. Let's support our committee while encouraging changes for the better.
I agree and will commit to helping if wanted.
Yes, and my point is not to make trouble, it is to say why we may struggle with kids competing at some of these things. I am willing to help, I am willing to give my opinion, and I am willing to put in more time even though I am old. My son was not treated right (I felt). I let people know that at the time, and I haven't looked back. We had fun, he was successful, and I want more kids to have that. I think there are some really good wrestlers that we are not getting to Fargo? How can we change that? Especially their Junior year of HS. I, as stated before, also would like to see more kids go to Virginia for senior nationals, wow! what an incredible tournament.
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Pretty sure our girls boosted our numbers quite a bit. Which is great for the state for girls. The other states are not doing very good there so not really an apples to apples comparison.
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Pretty sure our girls boosted our numbers quite a bit. Which is great for the state for girls. The other states are not doing very good there so not really an apples to apples comparison.
When you are comparing state programs it is a fair comparison. Our girls are under the same type of program as the boys.
Without the boys here is the AA totals;
1. Illinois- 59
2. Pennsylvania- 34
3. Minnesota- 33
4. Michigan- 30 (they had no girls AA)
5. Iowa- 27
6. Colorado- 22
6. Ohio- 22
8. Oklahoma- 21
9. Wisconsin- 20
9. New Jersey- 20
11. New York- 18
11. Missouri- 18
11. California- 18 (40 of their 58 AA's were women)
14. Utah- 17
15. Oregon- 14
16. Kansas- 13
16. Arizona- 13
16. Washington- 13
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Pretty sure our girls boosted our numbers quite a bit. Which is great for the state for girls. The other states are not doing very good there so not really an apples to apples comparison.
When you are comparing state programs it is a fair comparison. Our girls are under the same type of program as the boys.
Without the boys here is the AA totals;
1. Illinois- 59
2. Pennsylvania- 34
3. Minnesota- 33
4. Michigan- 30 (they had no girls AA)
5. Iowa- 27
6. Colorado- 22
6. Ohio- 22
8. Oklahoma- 21
9. Wisconsin- 20
9. New Jersey- 20
11. New York- 18
11. Missouri- 18
11. California- 18 (40 of their 58 AA's were women)
14. Utah- 17
15. Oregon- 14
16. Kansas- 13
16. Arizona- 13
16. Washington- 13
You know as well as I do that our state is well ahead of most states in the girls division. Which because of there success makes our winning percentage for the state much higher than other states who do not have the participation or the success our girls are having. BTW...didn't the girls do the duals that USA wrestling has for girls? Go ahead and compare the girls program to the others in the state..they are doing great...but to use those numbers with the boys to compare 2 totally different programs isn't really comparing the proper metrics.
::) ::)
Some of this stuff is so sickening to read. Parents complain no matter what anyone is trying to do. Now Aarons says you can't use ALL the athletes to say how your program is going? You should let everyone know parameters because you apparently know so much on how to build a program....oh yeah....you don't....you just end up at a different location with schools who are building something good. How about all the really good kids that decided not to participate in Fargo? How do we really know where we stand when all of the best kids don't go? There is no REAL way to say where we stand as a whole...but SPs stats show the best that they can.
As far as know gangs...so you are using hearsay by another complaining parent to show that there may be favoritism? Lame. There are many parents you can never make happy and excuse making many times leads to the favoritism battle. If I knew my kids needed a scale? Guess what...I send a scale. How many kids missed weight? If its basically none then this is a non-issue and didn't need to be brought up to ridicule coaches. As far as kids being tired..maybe some of our kids aren't doing enough on their own to be in the shape they should be if they REALLY want to compete to be an AA. But nah....lets blame a few tough days of wrestling over it being our own kids fault. The sign of the times.
If a family is so interested in their kid going to Fargo and need to plan for the future one phone call is all it takes. Phone numbers are on the federation site. So many people have to have their hand held through the whole process and then look for someone to blame. Those of us that have ever actually been part of building something know thats just the way it is...everyone has 20/20 hindsight. Its very unfortunate and likely the reason some coaches don't want to be involved with it and definitely the reason some leave it.
If they're not doing duals...get over it. Duffy made some great points that maybe some parents should take a step back and think about it...although I know they won't. Most of the ones with kids that are about dual age are the ones arguing it so hard as they are just looking out for their kid and want their kid to get that experience. Its a great experience...but in no way correlates to how good the overall team will do at Fargo. If you want grueling matches for your kids there are plenty of tournaments around the country to take them all summer.
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 10:51:08 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Pretty sure our girls boosted our numbers quite a bit. Which is great for the state for girls. The other states are not doing very good there so not really an apples to apples comparison.
When you are comparing state programs it is a fair comparison. Our girls are under the same type of program as the boys.
Without the boys here is the AA totals;
1. Illinois- 59
2. Pennsylvania- 34
3. Minnesota- 33
4. Michigan- 30 (they had no girls AA)
5. Iowa- 27
6. Colorado- 22
6. Ohio- 22
8. Oklahoma- 21
9. Wisconsin- 20
9. New Jersey- 20
11. New York- 18
11. Missouri- 18
11. California- 18 (40 of their 58 AA's were women)
14. Utah- 17
15. Oregon- 14
16. Kansas- 13
16. Arizona- 13
16. Washington- 13
You know as well as I do that our state is well ahead of most states in the girls division. Which because of there success makes our winning percentage for the state much higher than other states who do not have the participation or the success our girls are having. BTW...didn't the girls do the duals that USA wrestling has for girls? Go ahead and compare the girls program to the others in the state..they are doing great...but to use those numbers with the boys to compare 2 totally different programs isn't really comparing the proper metrics.
The winning percentage used was only from Junior freestyle.
The girls do the duals in Fargo. The duals are after the cadet and junior tournaments are completed. This year they had the highest number of injuries in the girls division. They also had more medical forfeits than they ever have had.
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 10:51:08 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Pretty sure our girls boosted our numbers quite a bit. Which is great for the state for girls. The other states are not doing very good there so not really an apples to apples comparison.
When you are comparing state programs it is a fair comparison. Our girls are under the same type of program as the boys.
Without the boys here is the AA totals;
1. Illinois- 59
2. Pennsylvania- 34
3. Minnesota- 33
4. Michigan- 30 (they had no girls AA)
5. Iowa- 27
6. Colorado- 22
6. Ohio- 22
8. Oklahoma- 21
9. Wisconsin- 20
9. New Jersey- 20
11. New York- 18
11. Missouri- 18
11. California- 18 (40 of their 58 AA's were women)
14. Utah- 17
15. Oregon- 14
16. Kansas- 13
16. Arizona- 13
16. Washington- 13
You know as well as I do that our state is well ahead of most states in the girls division. Which because of there success makes our winning percentage for the state much higher than other states who do not have the participation or the success our girls are having. BTW...didn't the girls do the duals that USA wrestling has for girls? Go ahead and compare the girls program to the others in the state..they are doing great...but to use those numbers with the boys to compare 2 totally different programs isn't really comparing the proper metrics.
The winning percentage used was only from Junior freestyle.
The girls do the duals in Fargo. The duals are after the cadet and junior tournaments are completed. This year they had the highest number of injuries in the girls division. They also had more medical forfeits than they ever have had.
So are you saying with out injuries that our girls would have done even better? I agree. Also all four of our champions are from our girls, plus I believe 3 seconds....that alone will increase our winning percentage.
If Aaron thinks going to the duals is important, is there any reason he can't recruit kids to form a team to take to duals? It seems like a win,win. Those that want to do the duals can do them, and those that don't want, don't have to.
To increase the winning percentage at Fargo even higher it is clear that Wisconsin should
only send the girls.
Quote from: billymurphy on August 10, 2016, 11:49:09 PM
To increase the winning percentage at Fargo even higher it is clear that Wisconsin should
only send the girls.
Ha! Very astute point, Billy
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 10:51:08 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:43 AM
Quote from: SP on August 10, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
In the latest WIN Magazine.
State by State Breakdown of each state: This includes all six divisions, Cadet FS & GR, Junior FS & GR, Womens Cadet and Junior FS
1. Illinois- 346 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 68 AA's, 5th best winning %
2. California- 275 wrestlers, 7 champs, 58 AA's, 21st best winning %
3. Pennsylvania- 179 Wrestlers, 3 champs, 39 AA's, 2nd best winning %
4. Minnesota- 246 wrestlers, 7 Champs, 36 AA's, 9th best winning %
5. Wisconsin- 176 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 34 AA's, 6th best winning %
6. New York- 215 wrestlers, 5 Champs, 31 AA's, 22nd best winning %
7. Iowa- 193 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 4th best winning %
7. Michigan- 87 wrestlers, 3 Champs, 30 AA's, 1st best winning %
9. Colorado- 173 wrestlers, 6 Champs, 27 AA's, 14th best winning %
9. Washington- 177 wrestlers, 4 Champs, 27 AA's, 23rd best winning %
Population of states-
1. California- 37.2 mil
2. Texas- 25.1 mil
3. New York- 19.3 mil
4. Florida- 18.8 mil
5. Illinois- 12.8 mil
6. Pennsylvania- 12.7 mil
7. Ohio- 11.5 mil
8. Michigan- 9.8 mil
9. Georgia- 9.6 mil
10. North Carolina- 9.5 mil
11. New Jersey- 8.7
Others-
13. Washington- 6.7 mil
15. Indiana- 6.4 mil
20. Wisconsin- 5.7 mil
21. Minnesota- 5.3 mil
22. Colorado- 5 mil
Pretty sure our girls boosted our numbers quite a bit. Which is great for the state for girls. The other states are not doing very good there so not really an apples to apples comparison.
When you are comparing state programs it is a fair comparison. Our girls are under the same type of program as the boys.
Without the boys here is the AA totals;
1. Illinois- 59
2. Pennsylvania- 34
3. Minnesota- 33
4. Michigan- 30 (they had no girls AA)
5. Iowa- 27
6. Colorado- 22
6. Ohio- 22
8. Oklahoma- 21
9. Wisconsin- 20
9. New Jersey- 20
11. New York- 18
11. Missouri- 18
11. California- 18 (40 of their 58 AA's were women)
14. Utah- 17
15. Oregon- 14
16. Kansas- 13
16. Arizona- 13
16. Washington- 13
You know as well as I do that our state is well ahead of most states in the girls division. Which because of there success makes our winning percentage for the state much higher than other states who do not have the participation or the success our girls are having. BTW...didn't the girls do the duals that USA wrestling has for girls? Go ahead and compare the girls program to the others in the state..they are doing great...but to use those numbers with the boys to compare 2 totally different programs isn't really comparing the proper metrics.
The winning percentage used was only from Junior freestyle.
The girls do the duals in Fargo. The duals are after the cadet and junior tournaments are completed. This year they had the highest number of injuries in the girls division. They also had more medical forfeits than they ever have had.
The injuries were not just Wisconsin. It was the overall girls events.
Yes, adding in the girls would increase our winning percentage.
2016 WWF District Meetings; Wednesday, September 14
http://www.wiwrestling.com/5709-2/
All feedback, opinions and questions should be directed towards the area director of your home geographical district. The WWF district meetings are open to the public and everyone is welcome and encouraged to attend.
---Districts
The Wisconsin Wrestling Federation is divided into eight districts with a representative from each district responsible for the operation of the annual district meeting. Each district shall conduct an annual meeting of members from within their respective district prior to the WWF state annual meeting held in October. At the annual district meeting, each district will hold elections.