Tournament?

Jimmy · February 09, 2015, 08:44:16 AM

Thanks glide for helping to prove my point.a two time state place winner was expected to win. But Keifer put a stop to that. Thus the award to him

Street Glide · February 09, 2015, 09:58:09 AM

Respectfully, If Kiefer defeats a two time state place winner without a torn ACL who's was at best 80%, then yes I agree the award goes to Kiefer. Your making it sound like Kiefer defeated a 100% healthy 2 time state place winner. Understandably a lot of wrestlers wrestle with injuries, but Muellers injury is certainly more than a little boo boo. I'm not sure one could classify Mueller as expected win with his injury, at least I didn't. Seems a lot to expect from a kid with a torn ACL, but hey he may have been attending Festers school of pain thresholds. Then of course he his expected.😄😄

justaclone22 · February 09, 2015, 10:07:50 AM

Quote from: Street Glide on February 09, 2015, 09:58:09 AM
Respectfully, If Kiefer defeats a two time state place winner without a torn ACL who's was at best 80%, then yes I agree the award goes to Kiefer. Your making it sound like Kiefer defeated a 100% healthy 2 time state place winner. Understandably a lot of wrestlers wrestle with injuries, but Muellers injury is certainly more than a little boo boo. I'm not sure one could classify Mueller as expected win with his injury, at least I didn't. Seems a lot to expect from a kid with a torn ACL, but hey he may have been attending Festers school of pain thresholds. Then of course he his expected.😄😄

Mueller got the #1 seed, so I'm sure his coaches made a pretty convincing argument at the seeding meeting that he was healthy enough and should have been the favorite to win 170.

NWIS1 · February 09, 2015, 10:37:01 AM

As long as we are discussing, my vote would have gone to Conner. Deepest weight talent wise. Kiefer would been 3rd choice.

Street Glide · February 09, 2015, 11:13:26 AM

Quote from: justaclone22 on February 09, 2015, 10:07:50 AM
Quote from: Street Glide on February 09, 2015, 09:58:09 AM
Respectfully, If Kiefer defeats a two time state place winner without a torn ACL who's was at best 80%, then yes I agree the award goes to Kiefer. Your making it sound like Kiefer defeated a 100% healthy 2 time state place winner. Understandably a lot of wrestlers wrestle with injuries, but Muellers injury is certainly more than a little boo boo. I'm not sure one could classify Mueller as expected win with his injury, at least I didn't. Seems a lot to expect from a kid with a torn ACL, but hey he may have been attending Festers school of pain thresholds. Then of course he his expected.😄😄
Mueller got the #1 seed, so I'm sure his coaches made a pretty convincing argument at the seeding meeting that he was healthy enough and should have been the favorite to win 170.

There were 4 brackets that the 1 seed did not win it, so that's not unusual. Of course coaches are going to lobby for the better seeding whether they think their kid is the favorite or not. Better seeding usually further advancement. Should have Mueller won, maybe. Was he a clear favorite, maybe. One thing that is not a maybe is his injured knee that greatly increased Kiefers chance of defeating him. Kiefer definitely deserves the conference title, he beat who was put in front of him. But OW I disagree because his main opponent is injured , 2 time state placer or not.

boowrestle · February 09, 2015, 11:29:58 AM

Ok,iam not from your conference but iam confused on something about how track drew for the byes??We are from the Badger conference we use a 16man bracket ,we have 13 teams in our conference,only one bracket had 13 kids in it.My sons bracket had 12 wrestlers top4 seeds automatically got the byes,if a kid that gets a bye 1st rd wins his next match the team should get dbl the advancement pts,at least that's how track scored our tourney.So what iam getting at is how does a top seed getting a bye affect the team score?If a kid is good enough to deserve a top seed and a bye that most of them should win their next match and get the team pts that are earned.

NWIS1 · February 09, 2015, 11:40:10 AM

Quote from: FinalWord on February 07, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
Drawing for byes is archaic. It dooms teams with 3rd and 4th seeds. The progression of byes goes back to the Dark Ages when I competed. Then a bye was worth 0. Nobody wanted one. Now, like in Regional WIAA rules, all wrestlers are seeded. Why all tournaments don't adopt this remains baffling to the enlighted.

I agree. Letting a random draw decide the outcome of a close meet is criminal. Well maybe just stupid.

shouldvewrestled · February 09, 2015, 12:00:03 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on February 09, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
Ok,iam not from your conference but iam confused on something about how track drew for the byes??We are from the Badger conference we use a 16man bracket ,we have 13 teams in our conference,only one bracket had 13 kids in it.My sons bracket had 12 wrestlers top4 seeds automatically got the byes,if a kid that gets a bye 1st rd wins his next match the team should get dbl the advancement pts,at least that's how track scored our tourney.So what iam getting at is how does a top seed getting a bye affect the team score?If a kid is good enough to deserve a top seed and a bye that most of them should win their next match and get the team pts that are earned.

It's done the same way as Bi-State Boo. You can automatically push the bye to the top seeds, or you can turn this function off, and draw in the unseedable wrestlers and byes. MBC draws in the byes. Personally this is the best way to do this if there is a team score being kept as wrestling the first round is better than receiving a bye. Take 120 where the top 3 kids are a basic tossup (IMO, but I think many would agree). So Stuhl gets the 4 seed, coaches don't always seed things in best to worst order, they will do what is best for their kid not the weight class. Number 1 seed then could get beat by the 4 seed and not score those bye and advancement points. Upsets happen I know but it is fairest for all to have byes randomly drawn in. It could hurt you or benefit you. If the conference team title was determined by the dual record this wouldn't even be an issue and byes then should be awarded to the top seeds.

justaclone22 · February 09, 2015, 01:26:13 PM

Ellsworth got a big benefit from the draw on Saturday. They only lost two matches following a bye and they got to wrestle a ton of first round matches, and they pinned in these matches. On the other hand, a team like Amery lost 4 matches following a bye (ironically enough, all 4 matches were lost to an ellsworth opponent, which would have been a huge swing in team score) meaning they score no points from round 1.

FinalWord · February 09, 2015, 01:34:09 PM

Preaching to the choir here jc22. Although my team seemed to have benefited I still disagree completely with "drawing" byes. When I was the MBC stat guy I had all coaches vote on seeding ALL wrestlers and it was adopted 6-2. How the current method was reinstated remains a mystery. I have doubts if all coaches were polled.

shouldvewrestled · February 09, 2015, 02:22:43 PM

Many times on here people have said seeding is done to insure the best kids have the best shot at getting to the finals and not about kids with losing records getting a fairer match first round. With the tournament setup to wrestleback to third those kids will most likely get their shots against similar skilled wrestlers. Look at the weight classes with only 5 kids. If you seed everybody it's not fair to the 3rd seeded kid then either. With a random draw he has just as much a fair shot as the 4th seeded kid to get their bye/advancement points by having a 25% chance he gets the match. Where if you seed everybody he's just stuck with no team points as he gets beat by the 2 seed. Do we complain then that we should draw in byes?? We could redraw this tournament again and Ellsworth could get the short end of the stick and probably still winds up the same. It was won by the balanced team putting 10 wrestlers into the finals and the other 4 all wrestled for third. No other team did that and really it shows the flaw in individual tournament scoring, with this few number of teams, that it was as close as it even was.

Jimmy · February 09, 2015, 02:51:23 PM

You can redraw or reseed the tournament all you want. But I still say Keifer deserved most valuable

Street Glide · February 09, 2015, 03:01:27 PM

Quote from: Jimmy on February 09, 2015, 02:51:23 PM
You can redraw or reseed the tournament all you want. But I still say Keifer deserved most valuable

Well then, if it was reseeded and Kiefer was top seed at 170 does he still deserve OW being the favorite?

Oh, and down goes Evans, down goes Evans!

shouldvewrestled · February 09, 2015, 03:26:55 PM

Lets do projection with NR knowing how matches went already with doing seeding instead of drawing in wrestlers and byes.

106 Mundth would have got the 4th or 5th seed. Wins that match against Inghim probably by fall.
Loses to Matzek wins next match probably by fall and then loses to Maack as he did Saturday.
Gains 4 team points. +4/+4

113 Minke would have gotten the 4th or 5th seed and wrestled Newton. Newton wrestled well
Saturday beating Hoopingarner twice who beat Minke. My guess is Newton wins. Minke then
gets a bye and then loses to Hoopingarner (did Saturday) and then gets 5th place. (Do I give
him the MD over woods he got first match, or fall he got second match?

?) Will give him the fall
he actually scores 3 less points than he did getting drawn in. -3/+1

120 Wachter would have got the 5th seed and lost to Stuhl, pins way to 3rd place match where he
then loses again to Stuhl. No point difference. +0/+1

126 Younger gets 2 seed and scores same points. +0/+1
132 Leavens gets 1 seed and scores same points. +0/+1
138 Moeller gets 3rd seed and 138 bracket was basically drawn in like it would have been seeded
scores same points +0/+1
145 Anderson 1 seed same points +0/+1
152 Dowd 1 seed same points +0/+1
160 Neumann 4 seed (should be 3 but not how coaches did it) so wrestles to 3rd same points +0/+1
170 Keifer 2 seed same points +0/+1
182 Schmidt got 2 seed and bracket was drawn in exactly like being fully seeded would have been
so same points +0/+1
195 Kern 3 seed only 5 wrestlers gets same points +0/+1
220 Moe gets 5 seed, upsets 4 seed as he did, gets 4th same points +0/+1
285 Manske 1 seed same points +0/+1

Total of a gain of 1 point

shouldvewrestled · February 09, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Same for Amery

106 Inghim gets 4th or 5th seed loses to Mundth, beats Montpetit by fall, loses to Maack
then will give him win over Casey Durand most likely will even give a fall so plus 4 points +4/+4

113 Smith 1 seed same points +0/+4
120 Connor 2 seed same points +0/+4
126 Marko 1 seed same points +0/+4
132 Connor 3 seed wins 1st match by fall and then rest same so gains 4 points +4/+8
138 Luke gets 6th seed loses 2 same points +0/+8
145 Walen gets 3rd seed no match first round beats Feldt probably by fall so
3 more team points +3/+11
152 Dado gets 3rd seed no match first round only 5 wrestlers. Wrestles Hansen OSC
to get to 3rd place match say he majors him only then wins 3rd place match
means -1 team point overall -1/+10
160 Wears gets Almquist and only giving a major as he only majored Peterson of OSC
then goes on to finish 5th +3 team points +3/+13
170 Nichols 4th seed majors Thompson then loses, gets a major again then loses so
gain of 3 team points +3/+16
182 Paulson #1 seed same points +0/+16
195 Newton #1 seed same points +0/+16
220 Hegna 4 seed same points +0/+16
285 Johanssen 2 seed same points +0/+16

Gain of 16 points