Wrestle offs

[Kyle]

Wrestling and track and field are the only sports that a kid can earn their position in head to head competition.I can't believe so many justify taking that opportunity away from the kids and using the politically charged coach pick system. I love getting away from all the politics and favoritism. I think the number of instances where the weaker competitor wins the wrestle off will be less than the number of times that a kid gets a raw deal from the coach pick system.

I thought the arguments against wrestle offs were weak. I don't think wrestle offs should be weekly. You don't want the varsity wrestler to be constantly be focused on the next wrestle off.
Kyle

[MNbadger]

I liked having weekly challenge opportunities,  I feel it keeps the varsity fellow on their toes.  This would keep them working instead of telling them that all of practice is a "challenge".  I get the idea but sometimes you get kids that try to hurt their competition while drilling and practicing.  I know it is our job to control this lind of thing but it is easier not to give it an environment to exist , period.

[DocWrestling]

Wrestle offs give the kids another real match.  The loser even  learns to wrestle with a consequence.

The only problem I have ever had is with guys dropping at the end of the year and wrestling off for a lower weight class at end of year.  I would have a rule that if you want to wrestle 113 at regionals then you need to wrestle off by January 1st and have your chance at that spot and then must wrestle there the rest of the year.  This gives the guy that loses time to drop to a lower weight class, gain weight for the next weight class, and get used to that new weight.

Changing weights at the last minute because of who might be at sectionals would not be allowed because it always screws over a teammate with the change.

[Quack]

Wrestling and track and field are the only sports that a kid can earn their position in head to head competition.I can't believe so many justify taking that opportunity away from the kids and using the politically charged coach pick system. I love getting away from all the politics and favoritism. I think the number of instances where the weaker competitor wins the wrestle off will be less than the number of times that a kid gets a raw deal from the coach pick system.

I thought the arguments against wrestle offs were weak. I don't think wrestle offs should be weekly. You don't want the varsity wrestler to be constantly be focused on the next wrestle off.
Kyle

What about Swim and tennis?

By the way, we didnt have any wrestle offs this year that I know of, but then again. we only had 5 kids

[DarkKnight]

Personally I don't know of that situation from what I've heard. But again, I don't know all the kids or the coaches either. I however did hear of this scenario which I do know to be accurate.....

Wrestler A; Senior, 3 time state qualifier, 3 time placer (1 time state finalist, the pride of the school to say the least)
Wrestler B; Senior; 1 time state qualifier, 1 time placer (4th)

Both wrestler A & B pinch for 160 (made up weights of course)

Once the season starts wrestler B is beating Wrestler A in drills, live matches, etc.

This goes on all season, Wrestler B is dominant, and is going wherever Wrestler A does not want to because of no wrestle offs. (160-170)

End of the year comes around and the returning state champ drops to 170 so Wrestler A goes to 160, Wrestler B has no choice but to go up, Wrestler B loses the finals match. Wrestler A loses by 1. Could Wrestler B have won a State Title @ 160? The weight he was at all year? True story other than the fact the guy's names are A & B and the weight classes....

Did that happen this past season?

[ThunderRolls]

It's hard to tell a kid that everything is a wrestle off...

A better practice wrestler doesn't necessarily translate into a better competitor on the mat under the lights. I want kids that are willing to take chances in practice, get into situations that they are not comfortable in and figure things out,  I want them to fight and scrap like junkyard dogs, but I don't want them just holding good position And being afraid of giving up a takedown in practice because it could mean they're varsity lineup spot.  I want my wrestlers to get comfortable in bad situations because ultimately that's how you win those  situations in a match.  I was always taught that you never give up anything in practice and I think to a degree that's correct, but I also think that you need to be comfortable fighting out of a leg ride or figuring out how to get out of a single leg that's been elevated high.  Practices were just that drama practice. I'm all about my wrestlers figuring things out and getting better... And not being worried about being judged.

For many teams the depth just isn't there anymore so this probably is a limited concern.  For the teams that have great numbers, it's a great problem to have.  I think a  combination between hard work in the wrestling room, what you see competing at tournaments and dual meets, and sometimes you just need to shake things up.  Wrestle offs are probably a good idea at the beginning of the year but their purpose serves primarily to get a baseline.

[DocWrestling]

If a coach does not have wrestle offs does the coach also decide what weight each kid wrestles.

[woody53]

If a coach does not have wrestle offs does the coach also decide what weight each kid wrestles.

Really Doc? You do know that at the D1 level that the Coach does decide where they will wrestle. It is up to the individual if they can do it.

[DocWrestling]

If a coach does not have wrestle offs does the coach also decide what weight each kid wrestles.

Really Doc? You do know that at the D1 level that the Coach does decide where they will wrestle. It is up to the individual if they can do it.

I thought we were talking high school

[bigG]

Not just a D1 thing. Coaches decide the weights where kids will wrestle.

[Ty Clark]

It's hard to tell a kid that everything is a wrestle off...

A better practice wrestler doesn't necessarily translate into a better competitor on the mat under the lights. I want kids that are willing to take chances in practice, get into situations that they are not comfortable in and figure things out,  I want them to fight and scrap like junkyard dogs, but I don't want them just holding good position And being afraid of giving up a takedown in practice because it could mean they're varsity lineup spot.  I want my wrestlers to get comfortable in bad situations because ultimately that's how you win those  situations in a match.  I was always taught that you never give up anything in practice and I think to a degree that's correct, but I also think that you need to be comfortable fighting out of a leg ride or figuring out how to get out of a single leg that's been elevated high.  Practices were just that drama practice. I'm all about my wrestlers figuring things out and getting better... And not being worried about being judged.

For many teams the depth just isn't there anymore so this probably is a limited concern.  For the teams that have great numbers, it's a great problem to have.  I think a  combination between hard work in the wrestling room, what you see competing at tournaments and dual meets, and sometimes you just need to shake things up.  Wrestle offs are probably a good idea at the beginning of the year but their purpose serves primarily to get a baseline.

I understand where you're coming from, but I have a very convoluted scoring system for the "everything is a wrestle-off" method, whereas effort and attitude play a major role. As far as not being "judged" in practice, when we wrestle a 2-2-2 in practice, I want the kids to treat it like a match... awareness of the score, time on the clock, etc. We do plenty of other forms of live combat (long goes, situations, etc.), which are more appropriate to work things out, but wrestling a 2-2-2 in practice is about more than just wrestling aimlessly for six minutes; it's about getting better at match strategy. Outside of 2-2-2's, I don't believe there should ever be a stalemate in the practice room.

[ElectricGuy]

Ty - To me it's a dis-incentive for a wrestler to try new technique in live situations with your setup.   From what you have described "convoluted" is probably a pretty accurate description. 

[Ty Clark]

Ty - To me it's a dis-incentive for a wrestler to try new technique in live situations with your setup.   From what you have described "convoluted" is probably a pretty accurate description. 

2-2-2's in practice aren't necessarily the right time to try new things. 2-2-2's are a very specific training device for learning to wrestle a match (pace, strategy, etc.). There should be a distinction between how the kids approach wrestling 2-2-2's and other types of live in practice. They are as much about the mental aspects as they are about the actual wrestling. When used somewhat sparingly, kids hear "2-2-2" and know it's important, not merely "live wrestling". A switch should flip in their heads.

Groups, situations and long goes are better for learning/trying technique. Getting tired during "winner-stays-in"? Try your throws. Find yourself in a new predicament? Find a way to make it to your advantage... don't just call "break". During a 15-minute live "go", if you're trying something new but can't get it, a coach will be able to help work through the issue... during a 2-2-2, not so much without defeating the purpose of it.

The "everything's a wrestle-off" scoring system is not that complex... it's something like this...
Takedown during a 15 sec. go = 2 points
Staying after practice to drill extra = 7 points
Missing practice = -10 points
Getting pinned in a dual meet = -5 points
Slow kid winning a sprint = 3 points
Fast kid winning a sprint = 1 point
Talking about his plans on Saturday night = -8 points
Helping with youth club = 4 points
... and so on... Also, all points can be arbitrarily added/subtracted/multiplied/divided by myself at any time. 

Honestly, most of my coaching decisions are made by asking myself:
What is best for the _______?
1) The kid (the person, not the wrestler)
2) The sport
3) The program
4) The team
5) The wrestler

When applying that to choosing a starting line-up, you can see that just because a wrestler is marginally better (i.e. could win a wrestle-off), there are four other levels which must be satisfied first...

Say A can beat B in a wrestle off by a decision...
1) A slacks off in practice, while B stays after to work with an assistant coach for a half-hour every night. I may start B over A to encourage A to work harder and learn a valuable life lesson about the importance of hard work and all that jazz.
2) B is too small to go up to the next weight, but A is plenty big. If A starts, there we would forfeit a weight, and, I think, we can all agree that forfeits are bad for the sport. I may make A suck it up and wrestle the higher weight to make room for B, even though he can beat him.
3) B is a senior and A is a freshman. A is getting hammered on varsity, so I may start B and have A get more valuable experience on JV. If A gets discouraged, he may not be back next year which hurts the program. B will be gone next year either way, so him taking a beating and hating wrestling doesn't bother me so much.
4) A is a velcro-back. B is willing to die before getting pinned. It's going to be a close dual. I may start B over A to save points.
5) A gets the spot if everything aligns with the first four factors. (i.e. #2 precludes any "running from competition", even if it is in the best interest of the individual wrestler.)