The post on the guillotine intrigued me. I went back and re-read it a few times, looked at how (it seemed to me) the numbers were tabulated and why. Overall it seems to make sense and as I got into our WI numbers, it made even more sense.
The poster over there apparently tried to use both dual and individual meets/tournaments to compile data but found out that the dual information was far too subjective. Forfeiting has always been part of the coaching game in the sport. It's used very regularly at the college level, so looking at that and how he said it would take too much time, I didn't even bother (one of you can if you wish).
So, I went on track and compiled the numbers for all the WI indy tournaments thus far in the season that I could find (26 tournaments). I did as the other poster did and will list numbers by weight and percentage. One thing that I think the MN poster discussed with people saying the numbers were skewed or not representative, was that it doesn't account for injuries, ACT tests, family vaccations, etc. I agree, it doesn't. But if your 160 lber is injured and you don't have another wrestler that can fill the weight, it's a forfeit, right? It means you don't have the depth/experience in one of the most populous high school weight classes, and that's an issue. Also, it was very apparent that in some of these tournaments that plenty of "JV" kids were being used to fill the weight brackets, especially in scrambles. So I counted those kids even if they were non-scoring or were part of a big team's "2nd team" or an "all-stars" type thing. A good example would be at a 14 team tournament where 16-man brackets were full. So overall as in MN it seems like the filling of weights with non-starters, and that of some wrestlers being out due to an illness, pretty much even out.
Ok, on to the numbers:
As mentioned I got info from 26 individual and scramble tournaments from Dec 2-Dec 10 in which 353 teams were represented and a total of 4942 open spots for wrestlers (353 x 14 weights). Like making my addition to the Guggenheim, it didn't take that long to do. ;D
We filled 3472 of those weights for almost exactly 70%. Using the same types of numbers as in MN, 70% of 14 weights is equal to an average of 9.8 varsity wrestlers per team. On a large-scale snapshot this is really not good. :(
Now...PLEASE don't turn this into a What Weights to Cut/Change, or a "See! I told you so the *** weight class sucks!" type of a thread. Because honestly, ALL the weight classes are not coming close to 100%. Lets' just chill, look at the data, and use it to help our sport. We have schools that have been cut or co-oped, and others that are probably in danger. We know that empty varsity teams is a HUGE component of that. I'm a believer that 14 weights has contributed to this problem as much or more than any other singular factor (I didn't believe that until I started looking at Ghetto's stuff a few years ago).
So here are the weight classes:
Weight - Number of Wrestlers (out of 353 possible) - percentage
106 - 194 - 54%
113 - 177 - 50%
120 - 227 - 64%
126 - 234 - 66%
132 - 267 - 75%
138 - 283 - 80%
145 - 281 - 79%
152 - 281 - 79%
160 - 262 - 74%
170 - 269 - 76%
182 - 254 - 71%
195 - 246 - 69%
220 - 228 - 64%
285 - 249 - 70%
Our best weight class, #138 was 80% full. If all our weight classes were at 80%, that would still equate to 11.2 varsity wrestlers per team. And in reality, we are a long way from doing even that.
Ok so here is my question before the debate gets hot and heavy and hopefully someone can provide a thoughtful answer. The bottom weight classes are the least populated and this seems counter intuitive to me. Obviously the average HS kids weighs more than say 130lbs, but that being said it would be hard for a kid that small to be successful in other winter sports. Seems to me as though it would leave wrestling as the only option for the smaller guys besides not participating.
What do you guys think about the small guys, is there something I am missing?
Most Boys Varsity sports are full of Juniors and Seniors, yes the occasional SO and FR make the teams but it's fairly rare, that's why there are Freshman and JV football and basketball teams. The 106 and 113 weight classes are predominantly Forfeits, FR or SO. To the guys that scream give the little guys a chance I would say most JR and SR 106lbs walk around before cutting at about 120lbs plus, so they have plenty of opportunity to wrestle if we cut 106 and 113, and maybe had the lowest class at say 112.
Not every stud 80lb to 90lb 8th grader has to be rewarded with a varsity spot as a Freshman. Plenty of Studs on the 8th grade football team play Frosh or JV football and then go on to be Varsity studs as JRs and SRs. Reducing weight classes to fill teams and maybe leaving some FR and SO behind to wrestle JV is not hurting anything.
Quote from: Handles II on December 15, 2016, 08:49:15 AM
The post on the guillotine intrigued me. I went back and re-read it a few times, looked at how (it seemed to me) the numbers were tabulated and why. Overall it seems to make sense and as I got into our WI numbers, it made even more sense.
The poster over there apparently tried to use both dual and individual meets/tournaments to compile data but found out that the dual information was far too subjective. Forfeiting has always been part of the coaching game in the sport. It's used very regularly at the college level, so looking at that and how he said it would take too much time, I didn't even bother (one of you can if you wish).
So, I went on track and compiled the numbers for all the WI indy tournaments thus far in the season that I could find (26 tournaments). I did as the other poster did and will list numbers by weight and percentage. One thing that I think the MN poster discussed with people saying the numbers were skewed or not representative, was that it doesn't account for injuries, ACT tests, family vaccations, etc. I agree, it doesn't. But if your 160 lber is injured and you don't have another wrestler that can fill the weight, it's a forfeit, right? It means you don't have the depth/experience in one of the most populous high school weight classes, and that's an issue. Also, it was very apparent that in some of these tournaments that plenty of "JV" kids were being used to fill the weight brackets, especially in scrambles. So I counted those kids even if they were non-scoring or were part of a big team's "2nd team" or an "all-stars" type thing. A good example would be at a 14 team tournament where 16-man brackets were full. So overall as in MN it seems like the filling of weights with non-starters, and that of some wrestlers being out due to an illness, pretty much even out.
Ok, on to the numbers:
As mentioned I got info from 26 individual and scramble tournaments from Dec 2-Dec 10 in which 353 teams were represented and a total of 4942 open spots for wrestlers (353 x 14 weights). Like making my addition to the Guggenheim, it didn't take that long to do. ;D
We filled 3472 of those weights for almost exactly 70%. Using the same types of numbers as in MN, 70% of 14 weights is equal to an average of 9.8 varsity wrestlers per team. On a large-scale snapshot this is really not good. :(
Now...PLEASE don't turn this into a What Weights to Cut/Change, or a "See! I told you so the *** weight class sucks!" type of a thread. Because honestly, ALL the weight classes are not coming close to 100%. Lets' just chill, look at the data, and use it to help our sport. We have schools that have been cut or co-oped, and others that are probably in danger. We know that empty varsity teams is a HUGE component of that. I'm a believer that 14 weights has contributed to this problem as much or more than any other singular factor (I didn't believe that until I started looking at Ghetto's stuff a few years ago).
So here are the weight classes:
Weight - Number of Wrestlers (out of 353 possible) - percentage
106 - 194 - 54%
113 - 177 - 50%
126 - 227 - 64%
132 - 234 - 66%
138 - 283 - 80%
145 - 281 - 79%
152 - 281 - 79%
160 - 262 - 74%
170 - 269 - 76%
182 - 254 - 71%
195 - 246 - 69%
220 - 228 - 64%
285 - 249 - 70%
Our best weight class, #138 was 80% full. If all our weight classes were at 80%, that would still equate to 11.2 varsity wrestlers per team. And in reality, we are a long way from doing even that.
Missing 120 lbs in the data.
:o Thanks. Let me go back and I'll find the mistake and edit the post correctly!
ok, all correct now and original "total" numbers and percentage were the same, I just didn't type in one weight.
One of the unique things about our sport is that the little guy can compete. I am all for keeping a lower weight class because of that reason. With that said and playing devils advocate, the numbers are showing that that argument is less and less debatable. The lower weight isn't getting filled on a consistent basis. So what's better: continue giving the smaller kids a chance, or strengthening the sport so avoid the FF's and have better competition? I say keep the lower weight and redistribute the weight classes. I won't say how many weights that I think there should be.
Quote from: Boot on December 15, 2016, 09:27:48 AM
Most Boys Varsity sports are full of Juniors and Seniors, yes the occasional SO and FR make the teams but it's fairly rare, that's why there are Freshman and JV football and basketball teams. The 106 and 113 weight classes are predominantly Forfeits, FR or SO. To the guys that scream give the little guys a chance I would say most JR and SR 106lbs walk around before cutting at about 120lbs plus, so they have plenty of opportunity to wrestle if we cut 106 and 113, and maybe had the lowest class at say 112.
Not every stud 80lb to 90lb 8th grader has to be rewarded with a varsity spot as a Freshman. Plenty of Studs on the 8th grade football team play Frosh or JV football and then go on to be Varsity studs as JRs and SRs. Reducing weight classes to fill teams and maybe leaving some FR and SO behind to wrestle JV is not hurting anything.
See, it's already happening, people saying what weights to cut. The reality is that we could easily say we should cut virtually any of them since none are even close to 100%.
Here's something, on both our and MN numbers, 113 has fewer wrestlers than does 106. And 220 has fewer than HWT. Can anyone explain that, and is it an area to look at without limiting the chance for small athletes who simply can't be varsity studs in other sports, or limiting the big guys who need our sport to help them in others (football)?
I've stated before, I'm not in favor of eliminating a low weight class just because there are forfeits. I'm also not concerned that most of the wrestlers are Fr and So. 125 in college is also loaded with underclassmen. It doesn't matter the age. It matters the skill levels.
I've seen some amazing small guys as Fr and So that have gone on to DI college all americans. Eliminate the lower weight classes and people like Cory Clark, Niki Megaludis, Zach Sanders, etc. don't have a place to wrestle until they are big enough. I really don't think that makes sense.
My take is leave it alone, accept the forfeits at the low weights if needed and enjoy what we have.
My thoughts...
Wrestling is a sport for the little guy no doubt. Can't we have a compromise? Why not have team duals with 10 weight classes? At duals everyone gets one match and they will still all get one match whether it is varsity. JV, or exhibition as they will be matched up with whatever the other team has. This brings back the team concept for varsity and JV, In a 10 weight class system 106 would likely have to be eliminated and lowest class would likely by about 115. That eliminates those small freshman and sophomores but just as many equally talented freshman and sophomores are wrestling JV because they way 138 and are stuck behind upperclassmen. You would also be likely getting rid of a 220 weight class
BUT..
Have all individual tournaments compete with 14 weight clasess. yes you have to invite 12 teams to fill up 8-man brackets but now everyone can compete at their more natural weight. 106 lber does not have to wrestle up at 115 like he would in a dual. 210 lber does not have to wrestle up at heavyweight and wrestle guys that weight 270.
Great compromise for providing team and individual opportunities for all sizes. Duals would be amazing with 10 weight classes with minimal forfeits, more depth, fewer pins, and likely less easy to move guys up to avoid great matchups.
Quote from: benaskren on December 15, 2016, 08:55:15 AM
Ok so here is my question before the debate gets hot and heavy and hopefully someone can provide a thoughtful answer. The bottom weight classes are the least populated and this seems counter intuitive to me. Obviously the average HS kids weighs more than say 130lbs, but that being said it would be hard for a kid that small to be successful in other winter sports. Seems to me as though it would leave wrestling as the only option for the smaller guys besides not participating.
What do you guys think about the small guys, is there something I am missing?
I have also wondered this. It's always been my pitch to little guys. This is YOUR sport. It's the one where being little isn't a disadvantage.
Forfeits are part of the sport. Eliminating a weight class is not promoting the sport or helping out the serious wrestlers.
Quote from: DarkKnight on December 15, 2016, 10:20:45 AM
Forfeits are part of the sport. Eliminating a weight class is not promoting the sport or helping out the serious wrestlers.
Agreed that eliminating a weight is not promotion. Neither is keeping 14 weights. I also agree that we aren't helping out serious wrestlers. Serious wrestlers will likely be in the lineup no matter how many weights we have.
It's about the sport in general that I am concerned. The best of the best are always going to be ok no matter what we do.
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 15, 2016, 10:15:20 AM
My thoughts...
Wrestling is a sport for the little guy no doubt. Can't we have a compromise? Why not have team duals with 10 weight classes? At duals everyone gets one match and they will still all get one match whether it is varsity. JV, or exhibition as they will be matched up with whatever the other team has. This brings back the team concept for varsity and JV, In a 10 weight class system 106 would likely have to be eliminated and lowest class would likely by about 115. That eliminates those small freshman and sophomores but just as many equally talented freshman and sophomores are wrestling JV because they way 138 and are stuck behind upperclassmen. You would also be likely getting rid of a 220 weight class
BUT..
Have all individual tournaments compete with 14 weight clasess. yes you have to invite 12 teams to fill up 8-man brackets but now everyone can compete at their more natural weight. 106 lber does not have to wrestle up at 115 like he would in a dual. 210 lber does not have to wrestle up at heavyweight and wrestle guys that weight 270.
Great compromise for providing team and individual opportunities for all sizes. Duals would be amazing with 10 weight classes with minimal forfeits, more depth, fewer pins, and likely less easy to move guys up to avoid great matchups.
Doc in your situation (which i'm not neither for nor against) the 1/2 lb per day rule (or whatever it becomes) must go. It would be virtually impossible and impractical to attempt your suggestion with this ridiculous rule.
I would be open to the idea of cutting weight classes, but I think there is more than simply percentage of wrestlers at each class. How about the quality of the wrestling at the various weight classes. While I will acknowledge that there are some tremendous wrestlers at the heavier weights, I also believe that there are a much larger percentage of kids who are new to the sport. This is not the case at the lower weights where some of the best wrestlers in the State have competed. Thielke, Dierenger, Koontz, ect
Weights were shuffled around several times in the past, kids just adjusted, wrestled off, or whatever.
As for which weights, I think it was Doc last year that said we need to look into some type of bell curve based off of the wrestlers we have. It might be the best way to go rather than going by a certain number of pounds to separate them.
But for right now, I think we need to learn more....Shall I continue collecting this data at least for a few more weeks?
The great programs embrace the team mentality and I truly believe that we are losing that and that it is the single reason why we are losing wrestlers.
Kids want to be part of a team and the team aspect offers many things.
1) A wrestler may lose his match in dual and team wins so he is still a winner. Takes the sting out of it for those marginal wrestlers that may go .500.
2) A wrestler can help the team by trying not to get pinned or give up less bonus points.
3) Even guys that don't wrestle that night feel like winners if they win.
My son has played football, basketball, wrestled some, and baseball each year. He is a freshman this year and is having his first dual experiences. He never cared much for wrestling so it was a surprise when he chose to wrestle this year. He is enjoying it way more than he thought he would. He came back from the Dells duals this past weekend and this is what he said and this is coming from a teenage boy that says nothing. "Dad, wrestling is the only true team sport that feels like a family" and he described how everyone cheers on one wrestler in each dual and spends time together. If wrestling was purely an individual sport he would not enjoy half as much.
When I wrestled it was all about the team score. If you won by 7 coach was not happy and if you lost by 8 coach was not happy. We also had duals in junior high with weight classes.
You want improvement we create one middle school season for the entire state and you bring back teams and duals. Then you can also have exhibition matches. Just cannot have "too many" weight classes. I have spoken with many middle school coaches that want to do these dual events but they have so many weight classes even at middle school level that schools cannot begin to fill them all. Nothing wrong with a kid wrestling an exhibition match and dreaming of someday wrestling in the actual dual.
Quote from: 1Iota on December 15, 2016, 12:40:08 PM
I would be open to the idea of cutting weight classes, but I think there is more than simply percentage of wrestlers at each class. How about the quality of the wrestling at the various weight classes. While I will acknowledge that there are some tremendous wrestlers at the heavier weights, I also believe that there are a much larger percentage of kids who are new to the sport. This is not the case at the lower weights where some of the best wrestlers in the State have competed. Thielke, Dierenger, Koontz, ect
This is just a blanket statement. For every great light wrestler there are others that have no business being varsity. There are also plenty of great wrestlers that come through in the upper weights and many great freshman 160lbers that wrestled for 5+ years lose in wrestloffs to seniors that have only wrestled 2-3 years because of the physical strength and maturity. There is a reason why there are no 4 timers that have started off at higher weights. I think Cibula from L-C was the highest in weight.
I honestly hate that size matters so much in sports so I feel for the little guy. I coach football and baseball and the bigger guys have huge advantages like they do in every sport. My point is that sometimes you just have to put the sport itself ahead of any individuals or make a compromise between what we do with duals and with individual tournaments. They can be different. But yes we would have to get rid of 1/2 lb or 1.5% rule.
Quote from: Handles II on December 15, 2016, 12:44:28 PM
Weights were shuffled around several times in the past, kids just adjusted, wrestled off, or whatever.
As for which weights, I think it was Doc last year that said we need to look into some type of bell curve based off of the wrestlers we have. It might be the best way to go rather than going by a certain number of pounds to separate them.
But for right now, I think we need to learn more....Shall I continue collecting this data at least for a few more weeks?
I think any data is good. If we don't have data to look at, all we have is opinions.
Great Data.
OK, some of us were around when 98 pounds was the bottom weight class. We had great participation at that time in wrestling. Most small schools were able to fill a roster. Many small schools had enough for an almost JV Team. We seem to be pointing out the numbers dropping off at the high school level. We talk about uniforms, weight classes and all kinds of issues. Opportunities have certainly changed since that time. The issues are complex. I would like to comment on a couple of things. The sports where bigger, faster, and stronger matter have a totally different objective. Wrestling is the one sport that allows kids to compete and contribute to a part of something bigger as we try to even the variables. We shouldn't be comparing it to those sports. We can compare wrestling to boxing or other sports where weight determines class. The 95 pound kid cannot compete in a lot of sports, so saying what is wrong with waiting a couple of years is unacceptable. In addition, we can tweak numbers and shape the sport with rules and make minor changes. Think about it, there is more to it than all of these issues.
Let's look at a typical weekend youth tournament. Where is the greatest participation? At kindergarten through second grade, right. We all know that. Then it drops a little at 3-4th and a little more at 5th and 6th and even more in 7th and 8th. I believe a major problem is that our young athletes (or parents) are not participating any more just to participate. They want to compete and win. We also live a society where adults are busy and self-consumed. When you combine all of that...in order to be successful in wrestling at the youth level there is a huge time investment (that people don't have) and money investment (that is required for a bunch of perceived needs other than just wrestling). There are exceptions to this in a few communities that have a large support system in their youth clubs. There was a thread with dozens of posts about how the youth state tournament predicts success at the state level. Many people have figured out that IN GENERAL early success leads to later success. (yes, we know the great athletes who are the exception to the rule that's why we know their names) In addition to all of these issues, parents fortunate enough to be involved in a great community-based program will be required to volunteer a ton of time. Whereas in the other programs, the kids get dropped off at 5 and picked up at 7. No concessions, no moving mats, no score keeping, etc. For those not involved in the community programs, it requires getting the kids to the clubs 4 nights a week and traveling all over the country on the weekends. Regardless, in our sport, success requires a major commitment. ...and you know what...there is nothing wrong with any of that! The reason our sport is having less participation is because few can handle it. Our kids will be the leaders and the people that others will be able to count on. They know what it's like to put it on the line. They will know how it is to overcome adversity.
In conclusion (because my break is over), it is not just a high school issue. It is an overall attitude that it's all or nothing. It's an attitude that if the kid wins on a weekend, it's a great couple of days at home. If a kid loses, it's a terrible couple of days. Kids stick with wrestling for several reasons. There are major reasons they stick with it...either they like to compete, success, social, or it's a tradition in their family. Even some weather the storm until they hit puberty. Some do not weather the storm because they found success too early with puberty. Regardless, let's face it, the sport is not always fun. It requires a commitment and identity. I don't care what the talent level is- Once you're a wrestler and somebody asks "Were you a wrestler?" You answer Yes (even if you played another sport). I think we have two issues that sometimes get merged on our forum. One is how do we increase participation? The other is how do we become more nationally competitive? When we focus on increasing participation, we need to focus on inspiring kids to want to compete and the social aspect of being a part of a group. I don't have the answers to all of these issues, but I know I will do a couple of things to help the issue. I will continue to do my best to provide my young athlete experiences that allow him to be as competitive as he can possibly be. I hope he can hold his ground until he gets a boost from puberty. I know when we travel 4 hours to a tournament he likes to take his friends as it is a lot more fun, so we fill up the car with other kids. I will tell goofy stories and suffer through terrible modern music. I will stop on the way home and have the group eat some terrible fast food. Then hopefully in about 5 years my kid still loves wrestling as well as the 5 other goofy little kids in the car. I might not have a great design for a uniform or a magic rule that will attract more wrestlers, but I know there is a good chance I have done my best to keep 6 of the kids that will contribute to 14 weight classes.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 15, 2016, 11:53:55 AM
I know we like to compare wrestling to other team sports but its not even close to a team sport. I coached varsity football this year and we did well and we did so off of a do it for your brother mentality. Wrestling is the biggest ME-ME sport there is and deep down we all know that, so expecting 105-119 pound stud freshman to stick around the sport for two years is a plan of a child.
SMH...exactly the problem. Too bad you look at it that way. Hard to get good without good teammates pushing you daily. Hard to win duals without making sacrifices for your "brothers". Parents and kids sell out to the elite clubs further putting the divide into their local teams. They foster the ME-ME thought process. I'm not saying to not utilize the elite clubs, but you need to be a part of the team you are growing with and expecting to compete with down the line. Doc is right on...and our team has several kids who like the Dual meet experience much more. It's more exciting for more people. Sell the team aspect of the sport and your numbers will rise; recruiting will be easier. Why would a new freshman join a sport that he isn't likely to get beat up in? Much more appealing to be a part of a great team isn't it?
Funny how no one answered Ben's question....I think it is provoking in the fact that wrestling teams should be packed with "little" guys. To me this should not be about cutting in any sort of way but about promotion and making wrestling appealling to the youth based on today's society.
Great post Nutman.
I think the sport needs to focus on itself and worry less about the specific individuals or even success. No matter what nobody is saying that a kid no matter the size will not get the opportunity to wrestle. I think our sport is often centered and focused on the most talented and those that love the sport the most and put in the most work. Nothing changes for them under any system. But the sport needs more kids that start in middle school or even high school if it wants to succeed with 14 weight classes but at the same time many of these kids are not ready for the varsity action that 14 classes brings.
Some are focused on our state getting better nationally and we need a system for those elite wrestlers but I think most coaches are not worried about that at all during the high school season and are just playing a numbers game.
We keep forgetting about the coaches. It is getting tougher to find coaches especially ones that are also teachers. They are not having fun when they have to fight so hard just to have a full roster. The majority of coaches want fewer weight classes. Some want to just label them as lazy and not putting in the time. Many are condescending to D1 coaches that cannot fill a roster. But the truth is they are trying and there is nobody standing behind them ready to do the job even better?
We talk about a reduction of wrestlers over past 10-20 years. I can only imagine how many fewer paid high school coaches we have compared to the past. Coaching staffs have gotten much smaller as wrestlers have decreased and budgets have been squeezed.
lower weights could be great way to promote wrestling with girls.
little guys are generally more timid and not as apt to want to participate in the sport.(the exceptions are already most likely wrestling) Lighter weight kids do participate in track.
average weight of kids is higher today than 10 years ago.
we need better promotion to be his group of kids
It's all about promotion and how you approach the sport it takes effort and collaboration between teams and groups to make wrestling great again.
Please don't cut the lighter weights. It has been done twice in the last 20 years--used to be 98#, then 103#, now talking about 110#-115#, c'mon! I refuse to accept that we have been such a lazy, video gaming, processed food society that most schools can't find a scrappy little kid in middle or high school and develop him. I can go to my son's 6th grade class and find you 3-4 boys out of 30 that I almost guarantee you will not be over 105# in 3-4 years. recruit them! Talk to the kid, the parents, whatever.
Again-go to youth state and watch the oldest age group 80#, 85#, 90# 7-8th graders. Tell them that they have to wait a year or 2 beyond their peers until the "grow-up". Look at the VACW duals--filled with 7th/8th grade 72#-90# studs. I agree, plenty of 125/133# college kids start out as 100# freshman/sophomore. So, we tell them to toil as a 100# JV waiting for him to reach 115# after all the stupid allowances? That will help WI state relative at the state level. I believe the lightest Fargo weight is under 100#, right?
Point is there are plenty of "small kids" experienced or not to fill a roster.
Fine, if we just accept that somehow limiting opportunity because certain teams can't fill a roster will promote a better outcome, then spread out the weights over a larger grouping. Meaning 12 weights from 103 thru hwt offers the opportunity for more kids versus 12 weights from 110#thru hwt.
Finally-No offense, but ask a casual fan what is more exciting to watch lightweights or heavyweights.
Singlets.
I agree TeamJ. No offense to the bigger guys but the lightweights make the admission worth every penny.if the lower waits get taken out I think we lose more than we gain.
Dual meets at the middle school age is a great idea for the sport as well. I have seen a few schools do this with having the middle school dual prior to a varsity dual on the same night. Individual scores where kept but no team score. What it did for those kids was amazing. You could tell they felt part of something. Only one match going and knowing everyone was yelling just for them. The varsity seemed to feed off of what was going on as well and turned in to some of the greatest duals I have watched.
Quote from: TeamJ on December 15, 2016, 03:44:00 PM
Again-go to youth state and watch the oldest age group 80#, 85#, 90# 7-8th graders. Tell them that they have to wait a year or 2 beyond their peers until the "grow-up". Look at the VACW duals--filled with 7th/8th grade 72#-90# studs. I agree, plenty of 125/133# college kids start out as 100# freshman/sophomore. So, we tell them to toil as a 100# JV waiting for him to reach 115# after all the stupid allowances?
I agree watching the lightweights is more entertaining but this argument makes no sense. I can say go look at all the kids at youth state that weigh 115 lbs and heavier and most absolutely have to sit and toil on JV because they cannot beat an upperclassmen.
Again no matter whether they are varsity or not for duals they are going to end up wrestling the same kids whether it is on JV or exhibition match. But outside of duals we should absolutely have a 106lb weight class for individual tournaments and state tournament series. Heck we could more than 14 weight classes for that if you want because that is an "individual" tournament.
I would like to help the truly little guys by taking away the growth allowance and make all wrestlers wrestle 75% of their matches at the weight they want to compete at in state tournament. That prevents all these 120 lbers from cutting down to 106.
Doc-
I am fine with toiling away on JV due to an upperclassman being better then you, especially at comprable weights. My problem is with being stuck on JV due to an elimination of a lighter weight bracket, resulting in an even larger weight discrepancy. Point is hard to win with 5-15# difference, very hard at 15-25#.
Love your idea on 75% of match at the weight for state. simple solution.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 16, 2016, 06:13:55 AM
Doc,
If don't allow 120lb kids to cut to 105lbs you could have regionals and sectional tournaments where you could only have 2 or 3 kids in the bracket.
Also the goal is to have the little guys grow so with out a growth allowance how do they do that?
Not sure I understand. Your two statements totally contradict each other? One describes cutting a ton and one talks about growth.
For crying out loud stop this talk about cutting weights from the weight classes especially the small guys this is great sport for them. Nobody on this website takes the time to learn the real issues. Data is useless without a cause or a plan to improve. Until the wrestling community works together and collaborates to find and impliment solutions as a whole nothing will change.......period. Business as usual then things stay as they are. But 50 people going in 50 directions is the definition of mayhem and doing the same things over and over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. 50 people working together in one direction for the same cause and being dynamic is a team with common goal.
I will tell you something you take two well run organizations like The Weigh In Club and AWA the excitement and enthusiasm in those rooms and events is incredible. Here are two organizations from a business prospective who are competitiors. But they come together in a quest to grow the sport and set aside the usual phylisophical differences of we vs them and it pays off. Both organizations grow and they collaborate to increase participation.
My husband was one of those senior 98 pounders in the '80's. He loved sports, and went to a big school. Wrestling was his only option. That opportunity opened the door to his life's work. He went on to coach wrestling and build a nice program. His two sons also loved sports, but were too small for anything but wrestling. They also occupied the lower weights (the older one only his freshman year). Selfishly speaking, I'm thankful the lower weights are a thing.
Middle school duals and club team will definitely help improve our wrestling quality and experience. Growing up in Chicago I wrestled for the Vittum Park Cats and it is one of my best wrestling experiences to date. From 6th grade forward we had team duals all the way to a team dual state championship. Maybe my experience was skewed because I was part of a few state championship teams, but I really enjoyed the team aspect of it. Then we all went on to wrestle in different high schools because of the many choices Chicago offered. We still wrestled on our middle school programs with our neighborhood kids though.
Other teams were very tough as well such as the Little Celtics, Harvey Twisters, Wrestling Factory etc. I have been in this state for 4 years now and believe our middle school programs are behind other top states. I will say I coach at the high school level though, so don't see too much action at the middle school level. Ringers, Askren and I'm sure more teams I haven't saw yet are doing great things, but I think the middle school format as a whole needs to be looked at. In Illinois we also were assigned a regional and sectional based on where you live and could not choose any regional like I have been told you can in Wisconsin. Just some ideas to add in a perspective of a man who grew up wrestling in Illinois and is now a Wisconsin man.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 16, 2016, 09:39:33 AM
Doc,
My point was there are several reasons weight allowance is nessasary.
Ram,
Several of the privet clubs are thriving and growing in numbers and success. Aviators and Ringers have created a national traveling team to help kids that want to compete nationally at the high school level, there two clubs practice together weekly and compete together. They also are working with a nonprofit K-ids N-eed O-portunity W-restling. This none profit can help raise money for kids that need everything from Shoes to money to get into privet clubs, to travel money for world or Olympic wrestler.
There are folks out there doing a ton on local and state levels, we need help at every level to build the sport.
Yes I agree they are not ham strung by the bureaucracy of the School Systems, like so many of the groups I just named the two I have seen make this sport trend in an upward direction. My post was not to detract from other successes. There are many.
In my district we have no shortage of the littleguys but in the very near future we have a huge shortage of big guys. Though with in the next decade I do feel by the size of the parents that signed up their youth we will be going the route of no shortage of big guys ;D
In my district yes we can for the first time fill out a whole line up. Though I may add that we are just putting bodies in at some of the upper weights. Also we arent the only school doing so. I wouldnt mind combining a couple of upper weights and such to reduce down to 12. I never said cut but combine, maybe a tad better word ;) but not really.
At the high school level, numbers are dropping and combining weights I think is in order.
long term, we should promote our sport in a different manner and that starts from the colleges down to the youth. Including high school and middle.
Ideas
Weight managment and not cutting
eating healthy
promoting fitnnes
promoting athletic stuff like cartwheels, flips, hand springs. Bet the football coach notices this ours did
having open camps in the off season to promote wrestling
With the last statement I mean, have a take down clinic and get the linebackers and DB's in from the football team and show proper tackling. If that works on the football field I bet the football coach notices.
Have a stance and athletic postions camp. invite the basketball and baseball teams. Heck a good wrestling stance works in basketball and what infielder in baseball isnt in basically a wrestling stance. How to move in it and be an athlete in that stance.
Sure it is not like kids are going to quite their sports but maybe some of the pre concived ideas may go out the window and some support comes down and maybe those coaches will steer a couple of kids that way.
Just some ideas but it needs to start now and at all levels!
This is the funny thing about wrestling. We have absolutely no little guys and always have extra bigger guys. We have recruited hard and not sure if we have filled 106 and 113 both in the same year for years and have not had a guy at those weights that should be "varsity" in years. They are hard to find here. I think that will continue as our football coach really pushes wrestling and our football coaches announce and do clock at our duals.
That seems to be part of the problem of wrestling where you have to keep both ends of the extreme but filling both ends of the bell curve can be tough.
Hello Folks,
Due to Storm of the Century ::) All I could find on Trackwrestling was Badger State and E.H.Stetch Invitationals (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore I won't be doing an update on numbers until after the other Holiday tournaments. I'll combine these two tournaments with the others and find out what happens.
On a side note, a gal I know once noted that "weathermen are like guys bragging in a bar. If they are saying 10 inches, figure on about 1/2 of that." ;D
Quote from: Handles II on December 19, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Hello Folks,
Due to Storm of the Century ::) All I could find on Trackwrestling was Badger State and E.H.Stetch Invitationals (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore I won't be doing an update on numbers until after the other Holiday tournaments. I'll combine these two tournaments with the others and find out what happens.
On a side note, a gal I know once noted that "weathermen are like guys bragging in a bar. If they are saying 10 inches, figure on about 1/2 of that." ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
New numbers for the new year:
I included tournaments prior to the holiday break that ran despite the unbelievably giant snowstorm we had, as well as our post Christmas tournaments, here are the numbers:
243 teams in 7 tournaments representing a possible 3,402 wrestlers. We were able to include 2501 wrestlers, ie 901 spots were left open for a 73.5% of weights filled and an average of 10.3 wrestlers per team. 113 is still the low-spot for the lighter weights and HWT was this week for the big guys, perhaps the 2lb allowance was a factor?
I also did something additional...Due to scratches at these larger tournaments where a kid who didn't make weight can't just bump up to the next weight class like can often be afforded at smaller tournaments, for arguments sake I did a run of numbers where I added five "ghost" wrestlers into the numbers at each of our 4 largest tournaments to compensate for those scratches. Even in our most populous weight class (152) adding in those 20 "ghost" wrestlers still didn't get us to a 90% of slots filled (89%).
106: 159-65%
113: 157-64%
120: 180-74%
126: 194-79%
132: 187-76%
138: 181-74%
145: 195-80%
152: 197-81%
160: 194-79%
170: 176-72%
182: 177-72%
195: 173-71%
220: 172-70%
285: 159-65%
Thus far in the season, our percentages have remained fairly consistent. We have been at about 10 wrestlers per team wrestling in a varsity spot (this does not mean they "belong" on varsity), on average. I wouldn't consider making 10 weights per team, as I understand each sides of the issue, but I'm very strongly looking at 12 weights as perhaps the best number. It would potentially put 2 more kids onto the JV squad (almost every team has 1-2 that could use more experience) and remove a 12 point advantage/disadvantage in dual meets, as well as dozens of points in individual tournaments. This would add more parity to our sport, increasing the need to work to stay ahead for established teams, and a booster shot for the lesser teams in that they can now at least be competitive. This very well may keep some teams from being cut, and by doing so, help keep our sport alive and viable at all corners of our state, big schools or small.
It appears that somehow 113 could be absorbed or combined in the lower weights, and maybe 220 or 195 but the numbers aren't quite solid enough at this point. We do know that it is generally easier for a non-wrestler to start as a 11th or 12th grader and be competitive at 195/220/285 than it would for one to be competitive at 106/113/120, so that needs to be a consideration.
110 and 205....DONE!!!!
Quote from: bigG on January 03, 2017, 11:28:26 AM
110 and 205....DONE!!!!
I think this would be a quick easy fix and makes complete sense to get to 12. Maybe we need to stretch up some weight classes at the top to maybe 173 and 185 but if we are going to 12 you have to cut one from the top and one from the bottom. That is what makes sense with the numbers. Stretch out the middle weights and you could easily get to 11.
Still think we can have a system for duals with fewer weight classes than we have for individual tournaments
Great info Pat Kilty,
What would happen if girls wrestling was sanctioned? Well, for one we would lose those 60 girls wrestling varsity and our numbers would be even lower for "boys" wrestling. 2. it might increase the number of girls that get involved in the sport and that isn't a bad thing imo.
Doc and G,
Looking at the data, 106 is doing ok, not outstanding, but pretty good. I think keeping a 106/07/08 lb weight class, then a 115 and 125 might be a better solution than just a 110 then 120? There is a ton of talent in 106 (look at the seeds from Bi-state or OTW) that will often grow into the heavier weights, let's keep those kids on varsity. Maybe there is a growth gap around 113 just like in that 195 range? Kids sort of skip over it from one year to the next? I'd be very curious about the numbers when we had 103 and 112 and what the differences would be... ???
DW: " Stretch out the middle weights and you could easily get to 11."
Yes, but in the middle is where MOST the kids are.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 03, 2017, 12:53:46 PM
DW: " Stretch out the middle weights and you could easily get to 11."
Yes, but in the middle is where MOST the kids are.
I don't disagree with that at all.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 03, 2017, 12:53:46 PM
DW: " Stretch out the middle weights and you could easily get to 11."
Yes, but in the middle is where MOST the kids are.
If College can have 189 as the second heaviest class, why does HS need 2 above that class?
Great point. I know in Wrightstown our coaches are supporting women's wrestling in NE WI.
I do think that in time you will see regional girls wrestling teams, much like hockey is for boys where you have two - three teams in a region like GB (GB, NDA, Ash, Bayport) and Appleton (Hortonville, appleton united).
Ultimately girls wrestling would be additive exposure for wrestling, though as you point out, less on a boys HS team (200).
In the long term the girls wrestling the more youth wrestlers we will have in the future. It is often brought up that we don't have girls cheerleaders for wrestling anymore so we need more females participating in the sport and competing is probably the best way. The more families with wrestling backgrounds the better
197 is the second highest college weight. Doesn't change your point 1iota . Just clarifying.
Quote from: Handles II on January 03, 2017, 12:53:15 PM
Great info Pat Kilty,
What would happen if girls wrestling was sanctioned? Well, for one we would lose those 60 girls wrestling varsity and our numbers would be even lower for "boys" wrestling. 2. it might increase the number of girls that get involved in the sport and that isn't a bad thing imo.
Doc and G,
Looking at the data, 106 is doing ok, not outstanding, but pretty good. I think keeping a 106/07/08 lb weight class, then a 115 and 125 might be a better solution than just a 110 then 120? There is a ton of talent in 106 (look at the seeds from Bi-state or OTW) that will often grow into the heavier weights, let's keep those kids on varsity. Maybe there is a growth gap around 113 just like in that 195 range? Kids sort of skip over it from one year to the next? I'd be very curious about the numbers when we had 103 and 112 and what the differences would be... ???
Just being tongue in cheek with my new weights. 103/112 would be some interesting numbers; and nice data points.
I wonder what the numbers are Free/Greco to Folk, GYP.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 03, 2017, 03:13:33 PM
Screw the kids that don't fit a weight class they should just cut down further or quit and go out for basketball and sit with the other 30 kids not playing.
Here is the issue! Why do kids in basketball choose to be part of teams when they never play? Yet in wrestling we want to get every kid the opportunity to be on varsity from day one or they will quit.
What can we learn from this to increase participation? To me it means that the team aspect is more important than the individual aspect. The team part is more fun. One of the biggest changes I have seen in wrestling is moving away from the team aspect with duals. When I wrestled in middle school we had a conference and wrestled duals with weight classes as a team. Luckily now our conference has brought back JV duals.
As we lose wrestlers, it gets harder to focus on team stuff and the snowball continues. This is why I believe fewer weight classes will improve the team concept and ultimately lead to more participation. We used to have two middle school teams that wrestled a conference with duals. Now the district has cut back to one team and we just treat them like third graders and match them up in round robins. While one guy wrestles on one mat the rest are doing something else somewhere else in the building. Building a team comradery is tough.
Over the past 20-30 years we have moved away from the team concept and participation numbers have gone down. Coincidence?
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 03, 2017, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 03, 2017, 03:13:33 PM
Screw the kids that don't fit a weight class they should just cut down further or quit and go out for basketball and sit with the other 30 kids not playing.
Here is the issue! Why do kids in basketball choose to be part of teams when they never play? Yet in wrestling we want to get every kid the opportunity to be on varsity from day one or they will quit.
What can we learn from this to increase participation? To me it means that the team aspect is more important than the individual aspect. The team part is more fun. One of the biggest changes I have seen in wrestling is moving away from the team aspect with duals. When I wrestled in middle school we had a conference and wrestled duals with weight classes as a team. Luckily now our conference has brought back JV duals.
As we lose wrestlers, it gets harder to focus on team stuff and the snowball continues. This is why I believe fewer weight classes will improve the team concept and ultimately lead to more participation. We used to have two middle school teams that wrestled a conference with duals. Now the district has cut back to one team and we just treat them like third graders and match them up in round robins. While one guy wrestles on one mat the rest are doing something else somewhere else in the building. Building a team comradery is tough.
Over the past 20-30 years we have moved away from the team concept and participation numbers have gone down. Coincidence?
Doc, your compaint isnt going to get better by cutting weight classes. It gets better by changing the way we treat jv kids, it gets better by building those middle school teams you so fondly remember. It gets better by those in charge of our tournaments to host tournaments for jv other than 4 man round robins. I think WI is on the right track with the creation of the challenge series...lets talk about how to build on that instead of how to kill the sport from the inside.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 03, 2017, 03:13:33 PM
Great idea get rid of 220 and sit back and watch the support of the Football program.
Big Oil as you know your coach is very opposed to cutting because he enjoys a great realationship with the football program.
I give up let's just start cutting, let's get rid of folk style all together and just get to Olympic styles and weight classes.
Screw the kids that don't fit a weight class they should just cut down further or quit and go out for basketball and sit with the other 30 kids not playing.
I propose we get down to 10 weight classes, let's get rid of 106 it's only freshman so it's not really varsity weight class anyway. 220 or 285 what's the difference they will be fine together I am sure no one will get hurt, plus there kids they bounce back quick. 132 for sure has to go, most of those kids cut from 145 anyway so they can wrestle there or cut to 138.
If we cut to 10 or 12 I encourage the WIAA to get rid of body fat testing so kids can squeeze down to a spot they can make.
My beef is we never should have added a 13th and then a 14th weight. When we added the 13th weight we did it right in the middle, made no sense and then 14 we modified them pushing them up. I think we should have a weight bigger than the former 185 but not two weights plus HWT. I don't know that it will help participation or not. I do think what some are saying you may lose a couple of kids that will quit because they aren't varsity and I do think you will keep other kids longer because they won't be on varsity.
I'm not sure on how many FB players are really filling those heavier weight that weren't always wrestler. I think Aaron has pointed out that 220 has more FF than 106.
So I don't really care either way and agree it's fairly pointless as this isn't changing.
It certainly won't change unless coaches talk to AD's, AD's talk to AD's and AD reps talk to WIAA.
Coaches must talk to and within the WWCA.
States don't always follow the NFHS rules, each has the ability to add to or modify. From the NFHS website:
"STATE ASSOCIATIONS are not required to use NFHS playing rules. However, most states use NFHS playing rules for most sports. If a state is to have representation on a committee, it must follow the NFHS playing rules for the sport. If the rules give an option, a state may mandate either and retain membership on the committee. Typically, NFHS rules place a major emphasis on risk management and efficiency in administration of contests."
And here's the reality and kicker, our state tournament series ends here. We do not participate, as a state, in a national wrestling tournament. Already rules are in place that if we participate in another state (or vice versa) that the rules of the host state shall be followed, so that solves any issues of teams crossing the boarders.
Certainly something to continue to talk about and watch as I attempt to compile more numbers. At this point, unless it becomes too cumbersome, I might as well attempt to do this each week.
getyours,,,,,I understand what you say there but I could counter with 12 coaches that say cut weights. we could go around and around with this.
Honestly your on to something with the 4,4,4 thing.
basically teams need the freedom of getting matches and duals against teams that they can compete against.
It does no good for any team to win a dual by 70+ points or for that matter lose by the same amount.
you can have a great young building program but if you get one of those butt kicking it does set back a program and if you continue to get those butt kickings it deadens most builing and young programs.
I honestly think youth wrestling has hurt the sport more than anyone seems to want to admit. I'm all for Jr. High wrestling, even 5th and 6th grade wrestling. Kindergarten through 4th grade is just too early.
Wrestling can be a very scary sport to a 6 year old. Especially competition. (it was scary for me when I got head tossed in nationals in college) Wrestling practice for a 6 year old can and SHOULD be fun! Not competition. I try my best to dissuade parents from letting their child of age 6, 7, 8, and 9 years old compete in tourneys.
Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten.
I tell parents that ask, you'll get about 8 years of competition out of your athlete. If you start them in Kindergarten, they'll most likely be done by 8th grade. End of story.
Yes, I know that elite wrestlers with PROPER parental support won't burn out, but those are not the athletes that FILL teams. It's the average kids that fill teams. They are not out anymore. They are tired of it.
Want full teams in High School? Cut out the competition from age 6-9. I bet you'll see an increase in kids going out in HS.
But, "Johnny loves competing in wrestling!!! He always wants MORE!" As a parent, it's my job to ensure that my child is told no. Turn a kid loose in a candy store and they will eat til they puke. Is that good for them? Same holds true in any athletic competition. Sure, the kid thinks he/she wants MORE! But in the end, they will tire of it sooner than High school comes.
Just my two cents worth. :P
jeast I agree on your statement of 8 years.
getyour,,,,one of the biggest things that work for us was youth duals. just getting kids from other school and strictly a match up and go. no team scores but man the youth we had do it was out of hand.
I think that basically teach just plain and simple tumbling with the little guys/girls. though by 3rd grade they seem to pick up some wrestling out of it. the big problem is that no matter how much you talk to parents they seem to want to get that shinny medal for their kids at such a young age. Also while I dont like those youth tournaments the money you can make is incredible. kind of like a bad makes a good. that money we make as a club certainly goes upstairs to help the high school and such. not sure if that is an evil but I certainly wouldnt say it is over all outstanding.
The big question, is where you want your kid to be competitive or the top of their game. 4th grade or 12th grade. that is what you can talk about but usually most dont find out until their child is no longer in the sport before high school hits.
Jeast +1. They need very little competition at the young ages. We re doing more scrimmages and duals for these ages and 1-2 tournaments for grades k-2 is encouraged and then a little more ,3-4 in 3rd ad 4th grade. Keep them away from the insanities(kids tournaments) as much as possible. At those tournaments, parents need to let coaches coach and parents parent and if there isn't a coach, there the parent should be there and say nothing( very hard, trust me, as a coach and a parent) especially at the young ages, let them FIGURE IT OUT on there own. They cant determine at that age if Dad is jacking them up or coaching them(probably trying to do both). We all get to be Papa Bear when or kids are competing, but we need to let them enjoy it and work with them at the proper times. I don't even coach my kids in practice. When they ask me about technique or situations then we talk about it. As far as kids saying no, KEEP THEM HUNGRY!!!!
I agree with Jeast that numbers would skyrocket if wrestling did not start until 5th grade. I know it will never happen. But everyone would start out the same and everyone that tried other sports and quit would join. Now we make it so hard for kids to join later because they get pounded by the ones with experience.
I think this would be true in all sports. Not just wrestling. The elite wrestlers may not be quite as good but we would have higher numbers.
2 college coaches have told me that they have a much higher percentage of kids wrestling all 4 years in college if they did not start in K-4th grade because they agree with you that most kids have a maximum in years they enjoy competing.
I actually coach our K-2 program. We focus on fun and fitness and introduce wrestling. It is only 8 practices, once a week in January and February. I advise parents to not go to tournaments. Many parents want more and some even leave to wrestle in other cities with higher frequency. There is even debate within our club. No wrong or right answer but right now we need numbers in our program more than we need experienced talent. I am not sure if even the K-2 program I coach helps or does more harm as many kids first day they get bumped and they are crying and some never come back. Always wonder if that kid will ever try the sport again when they are more mature. Once we have numbers then we can start pushing maybe more but my personal goal is simply to try and get as many kids wrestling in middle school as possible and to enjoy the sport. If they are athletic and start in middle school they can accomplish big things and pass many kids by that started earlier.
To me tournaments are mostly a waste of money and time below 3rd grade. Not sure why 9 minutes max of wrestling in an entire day and an award is somehow better than an hour practice. Occasionally maybe it makes sense if the wrestler is having fun at the tournament with friends and maybe that is more fun and different than just another practice ("fun" usually depends on the parents). I don't know of any other sport that has competitions below 3rd grade.
Quote from: jeast on January 04, 2017, 11:00:45 AM
I honestly think youth wrestling has hurt the sport more than anyone seems to want to admit. I'm all for Jr. High wrestling, even 5th and 6th grade wrestling. Kindergarten through 4th grade is just too early.
Wrestling can be a very scary sport to a 6 year old. Especially competition. (it was scary for me when I got head tossed in nationals in college) Wrestling practice for a 6 year old can and SHOULD be fun! Not competition. I try my best to dissuade parents from letting their child of age 6, 7, 8, and 9 years old compete in tourneys.
Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten.
I tell parents that ask, you'll get about 8 years of competition out of your athlete. If you start them in Kindergarten, they'll most likely be done by 8th grade. End of story.
Yes, I know that elite wrestlers with PROPER parental support won't burn out, but those are not the athletes that FILL teams. It's the average kids that fill teams. They are not out anymore. They are tired of it.
Want full teams in High School? Cut out the competition from age 6-9. I bet you'll see an increase in kids going out in HS.
But, "Johnny loves competing in wrestling!!! He always wants MORE!" As a parent, it's my job to ensure that my child is told no. Turn a kid loose in a candy store and they will eat til they puke. Is that good for them? Same holds true in any athletic competition. Sure, the kid thinks he/she wants MORE! But in the end, they will tire of it sooner than High school comes.
Just my two cents worth. :P
+ 1000
There certainly are kids who can go K-College, but those are very few and far between. To retain numbers, focus on practice, not competition. Unfortunately so many other sports are "game" based. Youth baseball is one practice a week and then a 6 game tournament on the weekend. The unknowing parents get sucked in by the overzealous organizers and fear of falling behind.
Start kids in 4th/5th/6th grade and we will have more in high school.
Jeast (and others), "Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten. "
I agree with you about too much competition too soon but.... Your quote is a bit contradictory to other things you and others are saying....
If I am not getting this right, I apologize.
Yes, a youth tournament will have those numbers but that is because you are drawing from a wide area and large population. A high school dual could be drawing participants from say two towns with populations from as little as 100-400 people.
Also, those youth tournaments have those numbers and they ARE NOT a dual format so it likely is not duals that will fix any declining wrestling numbers. Numbers have slowly and steadily increased nationally. I think we are looking at a small town problem ie.; declining populations in rural areas. Now having said this, I teach in district with a high school of 2100 plus. We are not fielding a full wrestling team. We have three middle schools each with roughly 600-700 students. The middle schools can barely get enough girls to field a basketball team. My MS had 6 girls the first day, now has 11. One would think they would have had 40-60 out and had to cut, no?
This is a parental decision and the child's/family decision ........period end of story. Liberal mind set and thinking to regulate common sense and good parenting.....gheeesh.
Ramjet, How do you see anything to do with "liberal" (whatever your definition of this is....) anything here?
And no one suggested "regulating" anything.
And to be clear, I lean the same direction as you in regard to competition though I do think we have too much too soon in most sports.
We just have to remember that the people that are posting on this forum are crazy wrestling junkies. The sport will always have these. What the sport needs to be worried about are the kids that participate but are not wrestling junkies. The overwhelmingly majority of HS wrestlers don't know about this site, don't look at the rankings, etc. They just show up.
I am not against youth tournaments but I do believe not even half of the kids should actually be there as they are not ready physically or in maturity. Some are but parents of those that are ready should not be dragging others to these tournaments and those that do not go to the tournaments should not discourage those that may be ready. My experience is that maybe 3 out of 10 kids at youth tournaments 4th grade and younger should actually be there. We have to be honest about what kids are ready for as parents and as coaches.
Quote from: ramjet on January 04, 2017, 12:29:20 PM
This is a parental decision and the child's/family decision ........period end of story. Liberal mind set and thinking to regulate common sense and good parenting.....gheeesh.
Huh??? You are right, it is a parent/child's decision but the thread is about filling weight classes and it was one's opinion that starting too early is one of the reasons that teams aren't filling all the weight classes.
Maybe, we should just go to 50 matches a year for our 4 year old's. Drop the age groups for the three state series, that way I can run around and boast how proud i am that my kid was state champ. I can wear his medal to the high school meets and explain why he doesn't wrestle anymore but he was a 4 year old state champ.
You are right, every parent will always do the right thing for the overall success of sport....there i go with that darn liberal mind set...
On a serious note, i would like to know what Pat Kilty thinks will continue the overall growth of Womens Wrestling? Would you be in favor of a WIAA high school women's only series? Obviously, not all are going to be as successful with the boys as your daughter(i assume your daughter). I agree this is where growth needs to continue. If the BIG TEN would get a couple of teams on board i think it could really explode.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 04, 2017, 01:10:26 PM
what age kids should start at is a great debate but deserves a different thread.
From the many conversations I have had on this topic(cutting weight classes), today I learned a major factor in why we have 14 weight classes.
The WIAA isn't as nearly concerned with FF as they are with specialization. If you cut weight classes you make it more difficult to make it too or place at state. This would lead to more wrestlers quitting other sports to focus more on wrestling which could have a dramatic affect on other sports.
The WIAA cares about each sport equally.
Let's be honest cutting weight classes has several negative possibilities so it will never happen.
The number one reason why we have 14 weights is because the NFHS has 14 weights. The WIAA has no desire to deviate from that. If we went to 12 weights nationally, they WIAA would fall in line without any argument.
I am ready for more data Handles. Are you going to work through the holiday tournaments? Maybe you did and I missed it.
MNBadger, in our small towns of SW Wisconsin (largest community is Platteville with 10,000, most towns of 2000 or less) each and every community that has a youth wrestling program has 40-60 kids involved. I see your point with contradiction in statements but it amazes me that my community can have nearly 60 kids from two towns involved in youth wrestling but struggles to fill half the wts. at the high school level.
I coached one half of our co-op before they co-oped and had 40 kids out for High School wrestling every year that I was involved (11 years total). The youth program was a great feeder program for the high school, but as the years went on, fewer and fewer stuck with it. That was nearly 30 years ago.
My sons wrestled for little bitty Belmont and had full teams under then Head Coach Scott Tolzman even into the late 90's and early 00's.
What has happened in the last 10-15 years that kids are not out? Phones? Computers? Games? Even Basketball is struggling filling out teams of 15. What's happened?
I don't think it has much to do with too many weight classes, nor is it the singlet.
Personally, I blame it on LIBERALS! Right RAM!??? ;)
You are right that it it is a multisport problem. Football has reacted and has created 8-man football. Many basketball programs have gotten rid of freshman teams or even at our high school we used to have two freshman teams and now we had to ask the manager to play to get to 10 guys for a freshman team in a school of 2000. Many freshman baseball programs are being scrapped.
Teams are dropping fast in all sports, just not varsity programs other than some football programs that dropped to JV only.
Honestly we may have to get rid of the conference model and group teams based on success and talent in each sport because it is not the same across the board.
Quote from: jeast on January 04, 2017, 04:07:25 PM
MNBadger, in our small towns of SW Wisconsin (largest community is Platteville with 10,000, most towns of 2000 or less) each and every community that has a youth wrestling program has 40-60 kids involved. I see your point with contradiction in statements but it amazes me that my community can have nearly 60 kids from two towns involved in youth wrestling but struggles to fill half the wts. at the high school level.
I coached one half of our co-op before they co-oped and had 40 kids out for High School wrestling every year that I was involved (11 years total). The youth program was a great feeder program for the high school, but as the years went on, fewer and fewer stuck with it. That was nearly 30 years ago.
My sons wrestled for little bitty Belmont and had full teams under then Head Coach Scott Tolzman even into the late 90's and early 00's.
What has happened in the last 10-15 years that kids are not out? Phones? Computers? Games? Even Basketball is struggling filling out teams of 15. What's happened?
I don't think it has much to do with too many weight classes, nor is it the singlet.
Personally, I blame it on LIBERALS! Right RAM!??? ;)
Yea the idea that someone can legislate or regulate the youth involvement is ridiculous. I laugh at this entire thread not much of looking in the mirror. The only person who can increase the numbers in wrestling is the guy or gal looking in the mirror. Society is so tuned into "flip a switch" fixes they've lost the resolve for long term fixes. Fixes that take time and laser focus. But heck the people on this thread cannot even agree on the problem. 🤔 So yea liberalism in ur society contributes greatly to the mindset that try's lead us down this road.
Ram This is likely going to kill his thread but as they say... "you started it". How a person can make the leaps you make, you have to be really angry....
"Society is so tuned into "flip a switch" fixes they've lost the resolve for long term fixes. Fixes that take time and laser focus. But heck the people on this thread cannot even agree on the problem. 🤔 So yea liberalism in ur society contributes greatly to the mindset that try's lead us down this road."
How does liberalism (or any "ism" for that matter ) have ANYTHING to do with your statement? Please explain. I think it is due to conservatism.
15 years ago it was same argument and actually then added a weight class. Not saying numbers aren't going down but those in charge must not be hearing it enough from coaches as I participated in this argument for many years and it becomes the same old thing year after year. I don't think the powers that create change are interested at all in dropping weight classes so we need to focus on our own schools and most likely deal with it.
My stance has never changed...you cannot take away the 106 weight class...if you watch any tournament of decent size you see how great of kids are there no matter if they are freshman or not...tons of talent. Also...when recruiting this is one of our main focuses as we search the halls telling those little guys there is a sport for them to excel in. While our school numbers have dropped some mainly due to enrollment size we may have 4-5 106 pounders next year as thats how they were recruited.
I think we can all agree the argument that we would see more football players wrestle by adding the higher weight classes really hasn't panned out.
Sports in general have less kids that commit all the way through high school for many reasons that have been talked about to death. While data shows there are less kids out I'm not really sure what problem cutting weight classes does. Actually I like it where its at due to the competitiveness at tournaments and state and agree taking opportunities away in no way will get more kids out. Do I hate 20 minute duals? Yes....more than you can know. But those duals would have been 20 minutes with or without subtracting weight classes.
As far as kids not wrestling young? Why not? If you have sons at home what do they do whether out for the sport or not? Wrestle. You can make it fun for the real young kids and they are doing what their internal instincts tell them to do....wrestle. I have to laugh when some say no one should wrestle competitively until junior high. Why would we hold down kids that want to do this sport? If a kid loves hunting or fishing we don't say you can only go hunt or fish a couple times a year so you love it when you're older. For some kids...and there are plenty of them this is their outlet.
As far as elite clubs it has become a major battle as more and more pop up for who can get kids to their academies. While I think there is too much with kids associating with the clubs instead of their home schools I also want these clubs to succeed. These club coaches have most likely spent much of their lives with the sport and its great to see some people able to make a living from it. We whine how the top wrestlers in the nation don't get paid like the top basketball or baseball players and then I hear whining that these clubs aren't good for much and we are taking money from the hands of many of those that were/are great wrestlers and can make some sort of living off of the sport they've given so much to.
Team duals are the best thing Ive coached in. Unfortunately few teams can fill most of the weight classes so they don't get involved. I do wish more of the top caliber kids/parents would try to get their schools into it instead of jumping on elite club teams. More school duals I think would lead us in the right direction over the elite dual tournaments all around the nation as these are really just for the top 1 percent. I'm really not sure how many of the parents can afford it as its a hefty cost and many times you could just get almost the same competition in state if we could get this to work. Price per match just doesn't sit well with me.
Anyway, all we can do is continue to recruit kids. Run middle school meets making sure experience is heavily used in match-ups and praise kids for committing to the sport.
Padre...I agree with most of your post except the comparison to being competitive at a young age and hunting/fishing. The first "rule" of getting your kid to love fishing is to make sure you have plenty of beverages and snacks in the boat and keep it short (or make sure they are catching lots of fish). If you take a young child out fishing for 8 hours and they are catching nothing they are going to get bored silly and never want to go again. Same with wrestling. We take them to these tournaments where 20 people are kneeling at the edge of the mat screaming at them and they are stuck there for most of the day. It doesn't take very many bad experiences (1 tight headlock can do it) and a kid never wants to wrestle again. Keep it simple and keep it fun. I don't want to build 1 or 2 champs. I want to field a full team. That means in a small district, I can't afford to lose kids forever at a young age. We can fill our line-up for the first time in my career this year and we have 11 freshman on the team. Our numbers didn't improve until we started really focusing on getting kids out in 7-8th grade. They are more mature and can have more success. Yes they are very raw as freshman, but they are out and they are competing. A drastic change from the days I only had 5 on my team.
I promise this is the last time I will try to add to any of the discussion (until I put out the numbers at regionals, probably around May when this forum starts to go to sleep a bit).
The national federation, just like our WIAA, goes along with what coaches say. So at the end of the day it lies on coaches.
Sports are changing. We as a wrestling community just place blame on people and say that because school X can do it, everyone should be able to. We hear words like "liberal" and "socialism" and all kinds of opinions on the matter. That's fine. We all have our opinions. But look at the facts. Less kids are wrestling. Less kids are doing all sports. There are a million reasons why. I believe in building grass roots and getting community support, and doing all the things that have been spoken about on this forum ad nauseum. I get that our debating it back and forth really does nothing, unless my friends in the coaches association are reading the numbers and debates we are having.
If there is a guy on the MN forum talking about not filling weights when they have JHI, doesn't that beg the question that there are too many weights? It's a national problem. Not just a Wisconsin one.
Here's an example of the state tournament in Delaware. 132 pounds.
3. Archangelo, Chase Smyrna 11 24-7
4. Barnhart, Nick Caravel 9 32-6
10. Black, Vincent Concord 11 23-12
15. Brainard, Cody Conrad 8 14-12
1. Chilson, Niko Sanford 9 32-5
9. Deneumoustier, Noah Polytech 11 25-8
2. Fisher, Anthony Dover 11 23-4
11. Flemming, Seth Lake Forest 9 17-15
8. Garcia, John Wilmington Charter 11 20-10
12. Harasika, Luke Salesianum 10 14-12
5. Juarez-Robertson, Ryan William Penn 11 27-3
14. Markland, Douglas Delcastle 9 14-20
7. Mayo, Kyle Mt Pleasant 10 25-4
6. Morris, Drew Sussex Central 10 26-11
13. Palmer, Dominic Middletown 12 19-21
16. Wright, Justin Cape Henlopen 11 25-20
Vermont state tournament. 16 man bracket. 13 kids. 132 pounds. (120 only had 6 kids at state)
8. Allen, Gabe Essex H. S. 10 20-20
2. Bliss, Daniel Mt. Mansfield Union H.S. 11 40-9
13. Clark, Alan Harwood Union H.S. 9 2-11
4. Davio, Dustin Middlebury Union H.S. 10 25-10
9. Genier, Nicole Mill River Union H.S 10 5-21
3. Goodell, Kyle St. Johnsbury Academy 12 26-16
1. Legg, Jarett Champlain Valley Union H.S. 11 47-14
12. Little, Christian Mt. Abraham Union H.S. 10 16-30
6. McLaughlin, Gage Mt. Anthony Union H.S. 9 39-22
7. Peters, Dakota Rutland H.S. 9 33-11
5. Reardon, Eathan Vergennes Union H.S. 12 18-13
11. Smith, Bryce Bellows Falls 11 4-2
10. Stettner, Moira Springfield H.S. 11 3-2
South Dakota state tournament. 132 pounds. Class A. Not sure if that is small schools or big schools.
6. Beach, Riley Vermillion 10 21-18
10. Bien, Alec Milbank Area 9 24-19
16. Bollinger, Brady Watertown 11 30-21
9. Brengle, Bailey Sturgis Brown 10 42-4
1. Huber, Spencer Yankton 12 42-3
13. Keyes, Jebben Pierre Tf Riggs 12 35-0
11. Kortan, Kobe Sioux Falls Roosevelt 11 36-15
15. Kumlien, Michael Harrisburg 10 32-22
2. Lehman, Sam Brookings 9 12-21
4. Ludens, Slayton Spearfish 12 38-12
5. Mennis, Bailey Madison 11 30-6
3. Moore, Josh Aberdeen Central 12 29-13
14. Moser, Casey Rapid City Stevens 11 29-19
8. Shillingstad, Chipper Huron 9 25-16
7. Skaare, Tanner Rapid City Central 9 24-12
12. Toenah, Max Tea Area 11 20-20
Wyoming state tournament. Class 4A. 132 pounds
13. Benabise, Paulo Natrona County 10 34-11
3. Cochrane, Kaycee Green River 11 28-15
6. Eldridge, Trenton Cheyenne East 12 37-19
11. Flores, John Cheyenne South 9 15-11
10. Frentheway, Daniel Cheyenne Central 11 11-19
7. Gasperetti, Jonathan Natrona County 11 28-15
4. Goss, Tucker Sheridan 12 34-9
8. Hardee, Kyle Cheyenne Central 10 22-12
9. Isonock, Ash Kelly Walsh 10 7-11
2. Jeffries, Taylor Campbell County 12 31-5
1. Leland, Tucker Evanston 12 22-7
15. Merrill, Nate Laramie 9 22-22
16. Munoz, Gabe Cheyenne South 9 14-20
12. Smith, Kaelob Riverton 10 3-12
14. Wagstaff, Carsen Evanston 11 29-11
5. Walker, Joe Rock Springs 12 26-22
My point of showing those is that the national federation is looking out for all states, not just the states where wrestling is doing well. If kids with 3 wins are making it to state, doesn't that say something? The national federation must not know what's out there.
Busy week and LOTS of tournaments last weekend, Cheesehead plus many smaller ones created more math. >:(
the Challenge series might have pulled some Var guys out, but there was the Cheesehead bringing in stacked out of state teams, and some scrambles were using perhaps their entire teams, JV, exhibition, everyone, or close to it, to fill out the brackets. And, as seems to be the case each weekend, it evens out to almost the same percentages.
We had 218 teams wrestling in tournaments with 3052 varsity spots. We were able to fill 2307 of them for a 75% full average or 10.5 wrestlers per team. Our best weight class was 138 at 86% filled. IF we could get all weights to that level, we would be averaging 12.0 varsity wrestlers per team. Food for thought.
By weight, 218 teams.
106 138 63%
113 145 66%
120 154 70%
126 162 74%
132 177 81%
138 189 86%
145 184 84%
152 170 78%
160 182 83%
170 181 83%
184 174 79%
195 147 67%
220 151 69%
285 153 70%
Weekend 1/14/2017:
Trends continue to be similar each week which is starting to solidify the data. There are more tournaments going to scramble-type brackets and inviting JV to fill those out (recognisable by having 14 weight classes and some teams bringing 20+ individuals and/or a 13 team tournament and brackets more than 13 per weight) I'm not indicating this is in anyway bad, but it does artificially bring up the average numbers of "varsity" wrestlers. But as we also know there are other reasons why a team might not have a varsity wrestler in the line-up, it evens things out.
We continue to see that 113 and 195/220 are the lowest weights percentage wise. I'm not sure what to think about 113 other than it might be a weight that doesn't fit into growth patterns very well? We could easily shift or combine these weights in some way to help create a weight class system that would be easier for teams to fill, decrease forfeits and open spots, and improve overall competitiveness.
But as with anything, communication within the coaches, WWCA, and AD's WIAA/NFHS is the only way any type of change will ever come, which, by looking at these numbers each week, at least for our state and the health of the sport as a whole, it should. Most of any in-team competition related to going to 12 weights would equate to an increased number of JV wrestlers and then hopefully, more JV events.
We had 207 teams wrestling in 16 indy tournaments with 2898 spots open for varsity wrestlers. We were able to fill 2060 of them at 71% at an average of 9.9 varsity wrestlers per team. Our highest participation weight class was 145 at only 83% filled. IF we could get all teams/weights to that level we would be at 11.6 wrestlers per team.
Weight class - number (207 possible) Percent
106 - 133 - 64%
113 - 123 - 59%
120 - 137 - 66%
132 - 156 - 75%
138 - 170 - 82%
145 - 172 - 83%
152 - 171 - 82%
160 - 154 - 74%
170 - 158 - 76%
182 - 143 - 69%
195 - 128 - 61%
220 - 135 - 65%
285 - 145 - 70%
Amazes me that this just keeps going and going, so in reply---I will try to remember to post weekly ways to GROW the sport, mostly gleaned from conversations with coaches/kids.
I'm 2 weeks behind so:
1) Local 8th grade Rec youth football coach (loosely affiliated to the local HS) told his kids they should go out for wrestling next year as off-season training. 5 kids did--4 never wrestled. Prompted solely because he wanted his kid to wrestle also, no other reason.
2) One parent told me they got their less then 106# kid to go out as a freshman because he could letter and it will help with college scholarships/acceptance. He is now Junior, 120#, JV (has lettered at least once), and loves the sport even though he is JV.
Also--for those justifying cutting the lighter weights due to it being freshman loaded (which should make no difference)---33 of 102 ranked/HM 106/113 pounders were freshman...meaning 68% were upperclassman.
37 of the 51 kids at 106 are either freshman or sophomores. That is 72% underclass men. Upperclassmen are juniors and seniors.
Maybe the WI Challenger series will be a good indicator for participation at each weight class for participation for our sport? I know the brackets are out, I just haven't had the time to go through them all yet. Also, why are we not getting 100% participation from all schools in this? I'm sure every school is different, just curious.
Quote from: TeamJ on January 18, 2017, 04:52:14 PM
Amazes me that this just keeps going and going, so in reply---I will try to remember to post weekly ways to GROW the sport, mostly gleaned from conversations with coaches/kids.
I'm 2 weeks behind so:
1) Local 8th grade Rec youth football coach (loosely affiliated to the local HS) told his kids they should go out for wrestling next year as off-season training. 5 kids did--4 never wrestled. Prompted solely because he wanted his kid to wrestle also, no other reason.
2) One parent told me they got their less then 106# kid to go out as a freshman because he could letter and it will help with college scholarships/acceptance. He is now Junior, 120#, JV (has lettered at least once), and loves the sport even though he is JV.
Also--for those justifying cutting the lighter weights due to it being freshman loaded (which should make no difference)---33 of 102 ranked/HM 106/113 pounders were freshman...meaning 68% were upperclassman.
All great ways to help grow the sport Team J. I believe there is another thread on this forum which you could include these ideas, though I quite honestly believe they have all been mentioned previously, and are already just a drop in the bucket of they types of efforts that coaches are making.
Interesting your take on 106/113 vs SP's.
SP, If I'm not mistaken, wrestling is a High School sport. Are freshmen, sophomores not high schoolers? Are you suggesting that we allow only 11th and 12th graders on varsity? If so, then let's do it and do it for every weight class. It shouldn't matter if a freshman is a 145lber or if he is 106. If they are 9th or 10th grade they are 100% limited to JV. Otherwise you are punishing quality wrestlers simply on genetics, we already have plenty of sports that do that. Add in the fact that many 9th grade 106 lbers can beat 11th and 12th grade 132's, and you show a pretty shallow, and self-serving view of kids in the sport and the sport in general.
If we did go only 11th and 12th graders, we would probably need to cut to 8 or 9 weights. But if that's what you want, then make your argument and fight for it. Create a thread.
If we wanted to fill weight classes and even 14 weight classes then they should be based off what juniors and seniors weigh but you don't have to eliminate freshman and sophomores from competing.
A healthy varsity sport would be dominated by juniors and seniors because there is no doubt that in general they are stronger, more mature, have more experience, etc.
Having one set of weight classes for 4 grades makes no sense. There should be varsity weight and then JV weights. USA wrestling has lower weights for cadets compared to juniors. The WWF does not use same weight classes from 5th to 8th grade!
Some light freshman may have difficulty competing as freshman if lowest weight class was 113 but that there would be a JV weight class for them. This is no different than many talented heavier freshman that are on JV because they cannot yet compete against physically mature 145lb upperclassmen. They wait their turn. Most records on wins and 4-timers are held by kids that started out at 106 racking up wins against other freshman and sophomores. There are some freshman in the mid to upper weights that are just as outstanding but the depth at those weight classes is so much greater because there are kids competing from the best of all four grades.
My solution to go to 12 would be to eliminate 106 and eliminate 220 and stretch out the weights a bit from 145 to 195 so that 195 becomes 205.
For JV weight classes I would add back in 106 and would eliminate another upper weight
"based on what juniors and seniors weigh" ...So that would include those 11th and 12th that weigh 106 correct, or are you only talking what some genetically heavier juniors or seniors weigh?
"no doubt that they are stronger, more mature, have more experience" ...Really? Is this true? More mature based on what? I've seen plenty of overweight 11th graders at weigh-ins over the years with nary a stitch of pubes, while some 106ers have full-on chest hair. Emotionally mature? Yeah, there's certainly another debate that can't be won. More experience? I bet we will find more years of experience as a whole with 9th and 10th grade 106s' than with 11th and 12th grade 220's or HWT. And we've all seen plenty of times in king of the mat, where a lightweight dominates a much heavier opponent. Stronger based on what? Strength to weight ratio as any apples for apples comparison should do? Sorry but the big guys will lose that contest too.
I was never a 106/113 but have certainly been around the sport enough to realize what these weights contribute to the sport, and it's something that other sports discriminate against. Their loss is our gain.
I agree!
Quote from: Handles II on January 19, 2017, 09:26:36 AM
"based on what juniors and seniors weigh" ...So that would include those 11th and 12th that weigh 106 correct, or are you only talking what some genetically heavier juniors or seniors weigh?
"no doubt that they are stronger, more mature, have more experience" ...Really? Is this true? More mature based on what? I've seen plenty of overweight 11th graders at weigh-ins over the years with nary a stitch of pubes, while some 106ers have full-on chest hair. Emotionally mature? Yeah, there's certainly another debate that can't be won. More experience? I bet we will find more years of experience as a whole with 9th and 10th grade 106s' than with 11th and 12th grade 220's or HWT. And we've all seen plenty of times in king of the mat, where a lightweight dominates a much heavier opponent. Stronger based on what? Strength to weight ratio as any apples for apples comparison should do? Sorry but the big guys will lose that contest too.
I was never a 106/113 but have certainly been around the sport enough to realize what these weights contribute to the sport, and it's something that other sports discriminate against. Their loss is our gain.
You are struggling to get past emotion.
I would rather watch 106lbers wrestle than most upper weights. They absolutely contribute. I never said they did not.
Yes I would base the weights on facts which would be for varsity what all junior and senior kids that fat test weigh. Then I would have JV weight classes based on what all freshman and sophomores that fat test weigh. We have to be able to agree on that fact that kids grow as they make it through high school
I don't know how to get past your other statement if you don't believe that juniors and seniors are more physically mature than freshman. Yes there will be an occasional exception.
We are trying to deal in facts and not emotion when discussing what maybe the "SPORT" has to do for possible improvements
Any possible change might ave a detrimental effect to a certain wrestler or group of wrestlers but that might be worth it to help the "sport" especially the team concept. If wrestling becomes just an individual sport it will become a club sport. Wrestlers can always wrestle up if they are lighter to fill weight classes but they cannot wrestle down. This is why sliding the weight classes up would help the sport by filling more weight classes along with getting rid of one of the upper weights as there just aren't enough kids there. I will feel bad for a very small wrestler that can;t compete at 113 until he is a sophomore and I will feel bad for a kid that weighs 210 lbs that would then have to wrestle a guy weighing 285. But I do believe the "sport" would be better off.
"Wrestlers can always wrestle up if they are lighter to fill weight classes but they cannot wrestle down."
Yes, they can and do wrestle down. Sometimes unhealthy down; which has been a major black eye to our sport.
Not trying to pick a fight. I get your point. But, it's the "gotta get down" attitude that hurts wrestling more than adding/subtracting weight classes. Maybe it's time we consider matside weigh ins. :-X
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 19, 2017, 09:02:10 AM
If we wanted to fill weight classes and even 14 weight classes then they should be based off what juniors and seniors weigh but you don't have to eliminate freshman and sophomores from competing.
A healthy varsity sport would be dominated by juniors and seniors because there is no doubt that in general they are stronger, more mature, have more experience, etc.
Having one set of weight classes for 4 grades makes no sense. There should be varsity weight and then JV weights. USA wrestling has lower weights for cadets compared to juniors. The WWF does not use same weight classes from 5th to 8th grade!
Some light freshman may have difficulty competing as freshman if lowest weight class was 113 but that there would be a JV weight class for them. This is no different than many talented heavier freshman that are on JV because they cannot yet compete against physically mature 145lb upperclassmen. They wait their turn. Most records on wins and 4-timers are held by kids that started out at 106 racking up wins against other freshman and sophomores. There are some freshman in the mid to upper weights that are just as outstanding but the depth at those weight classes is so much greater because there are kids competing from the best of all four grades.
My solution to go to 12 would be to eliminate 106 and eliminate 220 and stretch out the weights a bit from 145 to 195 so that 195 becomes 205.
For JV weight classes I would add back in 106 and would eliminate another upper weight
Doc...you keep repeating this same old arguement over and over...you keep leaving out that wrestling is the only sport that size doesnt matter...every kid can compete.....so what if most of those wrestlers are freshman and sophmores....theres no rules in high school that you have to be a junior or senior to compete on any level....band, forensics,debate....all includes freshman and sophmores....my daughter played all 4 yrs basketball on varsity, its common to even have freshman on varsity football.....so why would you want to box in wrestling and make the little guys out cast....it certainly will not grow participation.
So not only are we going to grow the sport by limiting opportunities, we are now going to limit it to 50% of the HS...just Juniors and Seniors? And yes decisions to play on a sport are based on JV vs. varsity opportunity.
I considered Sophomores upperclassman, I didn't know the true definition. Either way, 68% of 106/113 ranked kids are not freshman, which goes against the whole light weights are just freshman so drop them rationale (ie-the 12th grade Koontz kid!). Plus I bet you will see more upperclassman ranked or unranked moving into 106/113 as the season progresses.
And yes-cutting out the light weight classes penalizes based on genetics....same for the large kids. Spread out the middle if you must. That is where the largest percentage is, so spread them out.
Plus, your right Fargo, etc. does have much smaller weights for kids....so we as a state should limit those kids even more, while the rest of the US doesn't??
4/5ths of the top rated Mukwonago Girls basketball team is underclasswomen, so I guess by Docs logic this is a sign that we should eliminate Girls basketball.
LOL! Of course there are exceptions to all generalizations and I never once said that freshman or sophomores would be prevented from competing on varsity.
The Mukwonago team is a rare exception- Hopefully we can agree on that. The overwhelmingly majority of varsity sports team rosters in all sports are upperclassmen. Basic physiology and facts will also tell you that it is more common in female sports to have underclassmen on varsity. This is because there are fewer females playing sports compared to boys and also because females reach puberty earlier than males.
Aarons says it is common to have freshman on varsity football teams- I think we can all agree that that is not true. Again I am sure there are exceptions but I have not seen a freshman on a varsity football roster in our conference ever.
There will always be freshman on varsity in all sports but they are usually the exception. They are not the exception in wrestling especially at 106. These are facts based on comparison math.
I know many and maybe even most disagree with me and likely nothing will change but discussing by throwing out exceptions makes no sense. A healthy "sport" cannot look out for every exception. The sport is more important than those exceptions. Otherwise we could simply move to an individual sport that allows everyone on varsity.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 19, 2017, 11:55:07 AM
LOL! Of course there are exceptions to all generalizations and I never once said that freshman or sophomores would be prevented from competing on varsity.
The Mukwonago team is a rare exception- Hopefully we can agree on that. The overwhelmingly majority of varsity sports team rosters in all sports are upperclassmen. Basic physiology and facts will also tell you that it is more common in female sports to have underclassmen on varsity. This is because there are fewer females playing sports compared to boys and also because females reach puberty earlier than males.
Aarons says it is common to have freshman on varsity football teams- I think we can all agree that that is not true. Again I am sure there are exceptions but I have not seen a freshman on a varsity football roster in our conference ever.
There will always be freshman on varsity in all sports but they are usually the exception. They are not the exception in wrestling especially at 106. These are facts based on comparison math.
I know many and maybe even most disagree with me and likely nothing will change but discussing by throwing out exceptions makes no sense. A healthy "sport" cannot look out for every exception. The sport is more important than those exceptions. Otherwise we could simply move to an individual sport that allows everyone on varsity.
Its actually very common for football teams to have freshman at the varsity level....that doesn't mean every freshman. Also if you look into girls backet ball Mukwonag isn't as rare as you think. Your still trying to box in the little guys and yor main reason is "they are freshman and Sophmores" SO What!!!!! School isn't designed for only seniors and juniors...you don't wait to get your education until your a junior or senior....your able to compete in every other sport as well as any extra corriculer activity at the varsity level as a freshman and sophmore.
Fargo (the gold standard and "must" tourney for colleges recruitment): Cadets (generally speaking fresh/Soph)-- weight brackets--88/91/100/106. Junior (junior/senior) have 100/106/113.
Yes, it is a 1 weekend tourney vs. full season, but you get my point.
So in Wisconsin we should eliminate the lower weights and focus on 115 (or whatever) as a start, yet whine when our local talent can't make it to the next level, while ignoring the lighter kids and their potential.
Again-We have already cut lighter weights 2x in past 25 years (98 and 103)...all other states and national recruit tourneys have lighter weights, but we should go further away from that?
Handles
Was not implying anything other than the numbers. Most people look at freshman and sophomores as underclassmen. The post before only included freshman.
I did not include 113 in my numbers like the other poster.
Filling weight classes is about the 95% (made up number) that will never make it to state or will never finish top 3 in their conference.
I would bet 75% (made up number) of kids that fat test probably know that they are very unlikely to make it to state and yet many stick with the sport.
Your worried about our best wrestlers quitting other sports because they won't make it to state?
Got it SP. Thanks for clarifying.
Points, remember though how the 14 weights is creating such a situation of so many forfeits that we are losing teams? I'd rather have some kids spend an extra year on JV (or even actually have to wrestle off for a position) than to lose yet another program, to lose wrestling forever from yet another community.
Going to 12 weights is similar to the weight-loss trick of using a smaller plate. While you might have the exact same amount of food, if you are using a larger plate, you see lots of "empty" and want to put more food on it. A smaller plate seems more "full" so you eat less.
From the public/admin point of view (and reality), a team with 10 varsity wrestlers and 14 weights is more empty than with 12 weights. In addition those two fewer forfeits can make them more competitive in both duals and indy tournaments. This could create situations where the entire TEAM might qualify for state, or even come close, and that's when cutting or co-oping becomes more difficult to do, who cuts a program on the rise? The team success improves, and that breeds more success.
And again lets not forget the coaches. If I remember correctly the coaches had overwhelming support to reduce the number of weight classes although the way it was worded some wanted to cut one weight class and others more but the vast majority wanted a cut.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 19, 2017, 03:02:25 PM
Filling weight classes is about the 95% (made up number) that will never make it to state or will never finish top 3 in their conference.
I would bet 75% (made up number) of kids that fat test probably know that they are very unlikely to make it to state and yet many stick with the sport.
Your worried about our best wrestlers quitting other sports because they won't make it to state?
The WIAA does not care about what percentage of those kids make it to state....shouldnt be in the discussion.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 19, 2017, 03:52:11 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 19, 2017, 03:02:25 PM
Filling weight classes is about the 95% (made up number) that will never make it to state or will never finish top 3 in their conference.
I would bet 75% (made up number) of kids that fat test probably know that they are very unlikely to make it to state and yet many stick with the sport.
Your worried about our best wrestlers quitting other sports because they won't make it to state?
The WIAA does not care about what percentage of those kids make it to state....shouldnt be in the discussion.
Stop saying the WIAA does not care.
Sit in omn anyone of our meetings.
Quote from: woody53 on January 19, 2017, 03:57:27 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 19, 2017, 03:52:11 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 19, 2017, 03:02:25 PM
Filling weight classes is about the 95% (made up number) that will never make it to state or will never finish top 3 in their conference.
I would bet 75% (made up number) of kids that fat test probably know that they are very unlikely to make it to state and yet many stick with the sport.
Your worried about our best wrestlers quitting other sports because they won't make it to state?
The WIAA does not care about what percentage of those kids make it to state....shouldnt be in the discussion.
Stop saying the WIAA does not care.
Sit in omn anyone of our meetings.
Stop taking things so personal.....its not their job to worry about what percentage of wrestlers dont make it to state....
Would it be legal for a conference to decide on their own to use only 10 weight classes for duals and make up their own weight classes? Do they have to wait for the WIAA or really the NFHS to make a change?
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 19, 2017, 04:45:46 PM
Would it be legal for a conference to decide on their own to use only 10 weight classes for duals and make up their own weight classes? Do they have to wait for the WIAA or really the NFHS to make a change?
What a cluster that would be. ::)
I will go on record saying I'm ok with reducing 2 weight classes but not ok with touching the two lowest weights. I don't care if they are underclassmen because that is just a size bell curve. No matter what weight classes are eliminated someone will lose a spot and will be unhappy.
My favorite wrestling to watch is the lower weights.
My son is a freshman and he is among 6 of their 106 lbers. Sounds to me like coaches need to do a better job selling the sport and getting kids across all weight classes.
I just did some quick research and learned that approximately 7% of boys aged 15.5 weigh 106. Hmmm we have 14 weight classes. That means having a weight class at 106 makes perfect mathematical sense.
And, furthermore, at 15.5 years of age only 5% of boys weigh 220 lbs or more. If 106 lb is eliminated then by the same token, hwt should be eliminated.
This thread comes up all the time. The last time I posted the CDC numbers for boy's weights. Someone can search for this and the data shows strongly that we should have fewer upper weights and not cut the lower weights.
Question: What would be a fair ballpark weight to drop down from to make 106?
110? 111?
I know its situational, as some kids are ripped at 111 while others can drop, but...
Season is too long
Don't want to spend every Saturday in a gym
Those were the two most common reasons kids gave me for not wrestling and not even giving it a try. Wrestling purists call them excuses. I heard it enough to get me thinking maybe they were telling me the truth. My own personal feeling is the vast majority of kids are not ready to be wrestling competitively in k-2 grade. Sat by a Dad at my son's first tournament ever and he went down to the mat 3 different times before the tournament started because his 10 year old son was not exhibiting the Dan Gable like focus that he should be. Enough of that and I can see why kids do not stick it out. Also, lets not pretend that I was just sitting by one special cause. We've all seen that type of behavior multiple times at these tournaments. It is ridiculous. This is happening with a lot of sports and not just wrestling. I don't have the stats, but on another thread someone was talking about all the big time sports(Football, basketball, etc) participation going down. Wonder what the common denominator is? Watch Friday Night Tykes once. What a pathetic display of teaching our kids what is important in life. Besides 50-60 matches a year since kindergarten I can see why many, not all, are just done when high school rolls around.
I have asked numerous kids why they quit after at least competing one year in high school. The #1 reason is the schedule.
Wrestling 6 days a week with giving up their entire Saturdays with long days and waking up at 6am on Saturdays makes it a long season.
How can we fix?
1) Reduce the number of matches- put in a match limit
2) Maybe we reduce the number of Saturday tournaments teams can attend and we increase the number of duals they can have. This might promote Friday night tourneys or a schedule that is more like basketball with two duals a week but weekend off.
3) Changing tournament formats so that kids are not sitting around forever not wrestling if they do not have success. Scrambles do this some but maybe tournaments have a gold and silver division that matches kids together. This gets rid of the time we waste by having top ranked kids wrestle kids with 5-20 records. Fewer rounds and shorter tournaments with wrestlers getting more quality matches. We don't need those first round matches with all the mismatches. Imagine if all big tournaments had a gold and silver division. Top seeds in one bracket and bottom seeds in other bracket. Need to shorten the Saturdays.
4) Stop dragging out the WIAA series by taking up three Saturdays. Get rid of regionals and you have two options for sectionals... a) have super sectional with some matches on Friday night, or b) only have wrestlers with winning records qualify for WIAA series. We are wasting everyone's time with some of these matches with kids that are never going to make it to state and it also gives all wrestlers a goal to try and qualify for sectionals by having .500 record or better.
5) The diehards will still want the big tournaments and that is great. This is where we can grow the two "open" tournaments that are allowed and wrestlers can wrestle unattached. Or we allow any wrestler to wrestle in any two "extra" tournaments they want as unattached if accepted by the tourney director. Not all are going to do this.
Just ideas. Just giving the kids their weekends off will help retain so many more wrestlers.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
Question: What would be a fair ballpark weight to drop down from to make 106?
110? 111?
I know its situational, as some kids are ripped at 111 while others can drop, but...
Depends on the situation...if a kids natural weight is 110 or 111 they would typically be able to get down with parental. Typically speaking for kids who are put together well 1-3 pounds without parental 3-6 pounds with until 145 then things change with kids body masses. Of course the unfortunate thing with the skinfold is that those dates are given to athletes so an athlete is able to drop from as high as say 119 or 120 to 106 and then drink the needed water to pass the hydration...
Due to this factor, I for one would love to see the WIAA go to a schoolwide skinfold for all athletes participating in ANY Sport and make the testing day in the Fall and completely random. Of course the hydration part would be tough as some student-athletes are not naturally hydrated enough to pass the hydration test. Personally, I realize that cutting weight is part of our sport, but if it were to be further limited by doing something like this it would potentially boost wrestler morale as well as make more kids willing to give wrestling a shot.
I agree to a point. I also am against us in MN wanting to increase the match count. The season is long enough. Wrestlers get enough matches. I do see contradiction when many want full official jv line ups. I think the way jv is handled now much better. Why would we want more official weigh ins for jv? Just match them up by weight and ability as much as possible.
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on January 20, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
Question: What would be a fair ballpark weight to drop down from to make 106?
110? 111?
I know its situational, as some kids are ripped at 111 while others can drop, but...
Depends on the situation...if a kids natural weight is 110 or 111 they would typically be able to get down with parental. Typically speaking for kids who are put together well 1-3 pounds without parental 3-6 pounds with until 145 then things change with kids body masses. Of course the unfortunate thing with the skinfold is that those dates are given to athletes so an athlete is able to drop from as high as say 119 or 120 to 106 and then drink the needed water to pass the hydration...
Due to this factor, I for one would love to see the WIAA go to a schoolwide skinfold for all athletes participating in ANY Sport and make the testing day in the Fall and completely random. Of course the hydration part would be tough as some student-athletes are not naturally hydrated enough to pass the hydration test. Personally, I realize that cutting weight is part of our sport, but if it were to be further limited by doing something like this it would potentially boost wrestler morale as well as make more kids willing to give wrestling a shot.
Setting a skinfold test to be conducted on a random day in the fall would penalize those wrestlers who also play football. I know of many boys who bulk weigh up for football and then drop it for wrestling. This type of rule probably would lead to even more wrestlers dropping the sport.
Pretty easy solution in my mind. Get rid of the fat test. Get rid of any growth allowance. Get rid of additional lbs for consecutive wrestling days Make wrestlers compete at the weight they want to wrestle at regionals in at least 80% of their matches over the season.
Those that cut to much will be penalized in performance and will hate the sport cutting so much. We need to get away from guys cutting to 106 or other weights for only 3 weeks even if they can according to the fat test.
Make 106 be 106 every weigh-in.
If you really want to protect kids that are naturally close to 106 then go to mat-side weigh-ins.
The truth is that the guy that wrestles in state championship match for 106 gets to weigh in that morning at 110 lbs and probably weighs 115 by the time he wrestles. New rules would protect the little guys from having 120 lbers cutting to 106.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
Question: What would be a fair ballpark weight to drop down from to make 106?
110? 111?
I know its situational, as some kids are ripped at 111 while others can drop, but...
Maybe we need to stop being dead set on cutting any weight classes.....maybe more focus on participation.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 20, 2017, 01:29:10 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
Question: What would be a fair ballpark weight to drop down from to make 106?
110? 111?
I know its situational, as some kids are ripped at 111 while others can drop, but...
Maybe we need to stop being dead set on cutting any weight classes.....maybe more focus on participation.
Your reading comprehension is lacking. All I asked is what would a kid drop down to 106 from safely.
aarons,,,,while I understand what your saying and agree with not cutting weight classes.
When I argue these points, I usually argue for the smaller schools but now I see 2 D1 schools have co-op to save wrestling. By the skin fold there will be 46 wrestlers now on 1 team. will that remain the save.
Still 14 weights, now down 1 program,,,,hmmmm,,,I would like to stay put and see where wrestling is in 5 years but I am quite concerned if waiting is a good thing.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 20, 2017, 01:29:10 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on January 20, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
Question: What would be a fair ballpark weight to drop down from to make 106?
110? 111?
I know its situational, as some kids are ripped at 111 while others can drop, but...
Maybe we need to stop being dead set on cutting any weight classes.....maybe more focus on participation.
Your reading comprehension is lacking. All I asked is what would a kid drop down to 106 from safely.
Lol...no my reading compression is just fine.... your wanting to cut weight classes is well documented....
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 20, 2017, 01:42:15 PM
aarons,,,,while I understand what your saying and agree with not cutting weight classes.
When I argue these points, I usually argue for the smaller schools but now I see 2 D1 schools have co-op to save wrestling. By the skin fold there will be 46 wrestlers now on 1 team. will that remain the save.
Still 14 weights, now down 1 program,,,,hmmmm,,,I would like to stay put and see where wrestling is in 5 years but I am quite concerned if waiting is a good thing.
It appears 1 program was struggling and the other just agreed to help.....that doesn't mean the rest of the sport should be punished. You do realize they just added weight classes at the olympic level....so just maybe...the savior of our sport isnt always about cutting weight classes. I just wish there was as much effort put into growing the sport as there is into arguing about cutting weight classes.
Aarons,
I'm not sure if you are running a program as a head coach, assistant or not, but I think not. If you were, you would hopefully realise that coaches are implementing every trick they can to recruit kids (which is a shame, there are generally plenty of kids in youth programs, but they quit prior to HS, so recruiting is 100% necessary). You saying that we need to do more to increase numbers is preaching to the choir. We all know it, but sorry pal, all the advice and effort isn't working across the state.
When you look at the data and see that we have not one weekend this year filled any weight class to even a 90% level, with most being 1/4 to 1/3 empty, you can't keep blaming the coaches. And even if you do, it won't help.
We've been at 14 weights for 15 years. It hasn't increased the numbers of wrestlers in our programs like it was hoped to do. It has helped create a situation where a team with 10 solid varsity guys can't be competitive if they give up 24 pts from the start. It has helped create a situation where even great fans of the sport are turned off by seeing very few JV matches and several forfeits on varsity. It has helped administrators decide that if a team can't fill it's sports roster spots, it's going to get cut, just like a baseball team with only 7 guys.
I was very in favor of going to 14 weights at one time. I had 45-50 kids in my room, most of which I recruited. For us, going to 14 simply meant the other good teams in our area couldn't beat us, they all had a weight, 2, or 3 that they couldn't fill. I could capitalize on the forfeits. I was only looking out for me, my team, not the sport. Had I listened better to the guys who were looking out for the sport (and saying the exact same things as we are now) I would have cast a different vote.
Isn't this 15 year failed experiment long enough? Or should we keep letting more programs get cut? I can't promise that with 12 weights we couldn't lose more teams, but from a competitive standpoint, from an administrative standpoint, filling 10 of 12 is quite a bit different than 10 of 14. Having 2 more JV kids each wrestling 2 matches equates to 4 more matches for that wrestling fan. Overcoming a 12 pt deficit vs a 24 is much more attainable. All positives, not for an individual, but for the sport.
Quote from: Handles II on January 20, 2017, 03:11:06 PM
Aarons,
I'm not sure if you are running a program as a head coach, assistant or not, but I think not. If you were, you would hopefully realise that coaches are implementing every trick they can to recruit kids (which is a shame, there are generally plenty of kids in youth programs, but they quit prior to HS, so recruiting is 100% necessary). You saying that we need to do more to increase numbers is preaching to the choir. We all know it, but sorry pal, all the advice and effort isn't working across the state.
When you look at the data and see that we have not one weekend this year filled any weight class to even a 90% level, with most being 1/4 to 1/3 empty, you can't keep blaming the coaches. And even if you do, it won't help.
We've been at 14 weights for 15 years. It hasn't increased the numbers of wrestlers in our programs like it was hoped to do. It has helped create a situation where a team with 10 solid varsity guys can't be competitive if they give up 24 pts from the start. It has helped create a situation where even great fans of the sport are turned off by seeing very few JV matches and several forfeits on varsity. It has helped administrators decide that if a team can't fill it's sports roster spots, it's going to get cut, just like a baseball team with only 7 guys.
I was very in favor of going to 14 weights at one time. I had 45-50 kids in my room, most of which I recruited. For us, going to 14 simply meant the other good teams in our area couldn't beat us, they all had a weight, 2, or 3 that they couldn't fill. I could capitalize on the forfeits. I was only looking out for me, my team, not the sport. Had I listened better to the guys who were looking out for the sport (and saying the exact same things as we are now) I would have cast a different vote.
Isn't this 15 year failed experiment long enough? Or should we keep letting more programs get cut? I can't promise that with 12 weights we couldn't lose more teams, but from a competitive standpoint, from an administrative standpoint, filling 10 of 12 is quite a bit different than 10 of 14. Having 2 more JV kids each wrestling 2 matches equates to 4 more matches for that wrestling fan. Overcoming a 12 pt deficit vs a 24 is much more attainable. All positives, not for an individual, but for the sport.
Actually a simple answer to your page long post...no....no they are not. Successful programs have the same problems as the ones who have low numbers....but they found ways to grow there programs....not try to convince others to reduce weight classes. I have said this many times....good and great coaches dont always make great program builders....it takes a group of dedicated people.....if your program is struggling, take a good look on the mirror and find those people to help you out...dont try to minimize our sport by reducing weight classes.
Get your points- I agree with your thoughts on changing how we do our meets. The 7 and 7 is tough. If we allowed a few nights of double duals and it not count as a multi meet that would be great! You can promote it more and more people might attend to see more wrestling. Saturday night triple duals and people get home at a reasonable hour.
How about you can wrestle seven duals and if you have three in one night it still counts as only three duals. Less weigh-ins and overall dates to compete.
Hey points, I've agreed I like your idea of 444. So, how long, how many seasons before this change infiltrates the wrestling world and brings kids in off the streets to join the sport?
If you think that in one season it will convince enough kids to join the toughest sport in the school to fill out the 14 weights plus add to the JV, and save programs from being cut, then absolutely lets do it.
My thoughts are that changing the culture, that getting AD's to schedule all these night-time events during basketball season might not go quite as smoothly as we hope. And will we be also changing the culture in our youth?? We know kids and parents tire of saturday and sunday tournaments, and we certainly lose kids prior to hs. If not, shouldn't our efforts be to A. make a change that can instantly help struggling programs, and B. focus on changing the culture in our youth so we get more of those kids and parents sticking with the sport in the first place?
Like I said, I like your idea. I think coaches now have the full ability to limit the number of weekend events they participate in, correct? When we went to 14 weights it didn't change weekend events, but it did instantly change the number of forfeits an average team in the state was giving up. It instantly changed their competitiveness. Changing the culture is WAY important but might take too long for some people to come around to. We have teams on the brink right now of being cut. I'd like to salvage all of them that we can.
bottom line is that at the high school level in a period of time we are going to see some programs go by the way side. I am not sure as to how it is going to happen but I know in smaller districts there just isnt the money to go around and the "lesser" sports will feel the punishments of the money issues.
It isnt only wrestling, I see many sports and the "top" sports that are having trouble getting kids out.
We also have to face it, sports to todays kids just arent like we as parent felt about them. I just dont like the idea of schools dropping programs or even talked about it.
while the WIAA may think it is funny that we even talk about it because it is about the kids, (which it isnt for the WIAA or it would be double elimination for all sports outside of football at the state level) the WIAA also doesnt see the problems that the local schools or districts see.
Hey Kids! I know some of you have been waiting patiently for this week's numbers!!! And thanks to the several little birds that let me know this information IS being talked about in wrestling circles. That's exactly what is needed. Hopefully the discussions are on the real issues, the relationship between programs being cut/co-oped and not being able to fill a varsity roster vs. simply discussing a like or dislike of whom is posting it. Because quite honestly, if you don't like me because I'm pressing an issue that is extremely important to our sport, too bad. This needs to be talked about. Sorry if the thought of going to 12 weights might cause you fear that your son might lose a wrestle off rather than be given a varsity spot, but it's much better than the options of losing entire programs so everyone loses a varsity spot.
I decided to mix it up this week. Rather than posting our per-weight numbers (which have been almost identical percentages since the first week, and averaging about 10 varsity kids per team), I'm taking Ghetto's approach and posting the number of teams that filled the weights. I looked at 7 of our largest varsity tournaments of the weekend and broke it down by number of entries. The numbers ARE skewed in FAVOR of teams filling the weights because at some tournaments there was a JV portion and/or JV wrestlers were included to fill out brackets in non-scoring ways. I didn't take the time to go through each team and see how many of the kids were actually on JV vs Var, if they had enough kids in the tournament to fill 14 weights, I counted them. So for sure this throws things off. But whatever, gotta take a look anyway. Right? Also, I'd like for you to look at the tournament points as well. Notice the normally huge separation between the teams with 12 or more kids vs. the others. What would an A.D. think when he sees that his team is 200 points behind the leaders. Is it time to cut this program that's so far away from even being top 3? Perhaps?
We had 97 teams participating in these 7 tournaments. I broke them into 4 categories. Those that could fill 13 OR 14 weights (combined into one big category to account for a sick kid, or not making weight). Those that could fill 12, 11, and 10. I didn't count any with fewer than 10 varsity wrestlers.
Of 97 teams:
13/14 weight classes filled - 24, 25%
12 weight classes filled - 14, 14%
11 weight classes filled - 8, 9%
10 weight classes filled - 12, 12%
Surprisingly (or not) the results turned out kinda similar to our weight class data, but a tad worse overall. Only 25% of the teams could really be considered "..full varsity roster..." by an administrator or the public. And only 60% of the teams competing this weekend in varsity events were able to fill 10 or more weight classes. The rest couldn't. Our team roster size is made of a number that 40% of the teams can't fill. That isn't good. It's unhealthy. And it's almost exactly the same number as Ghetto has shown at Regionals, on average statewide, since I think 2005 is where his numbers begin? Correct me if I'm wrong Ghetto.
10 years and our only change was to take a weight from the middle and shift it towards the upper weights, Why? Please as yourself, ask your friends, ask other coaches. Why are we doing this while we lose more programs? Why are people ignoring the real numbers? What are you going to do if it's your team, or the neighboring town, or a conference rival? Will it be ok to lose them too?
Easy fix to some on here. We have to replace the coaches at at least 50% of schools in Wisconsin. Fire them all! They are not doing enough!
Pure sarcasm from mehere for those that cannot get it
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 20, 2017, 05:36:00 PM
Cutting weight classes is not savior to the issue. As I have stated before cutting weight classes is like cutting out a tumor and not treating the cancer.
It's the weekends, it the weekends.
Before we cut 106 out I would like to change the 7&7 format to a 4-4-4.
Let's change the cultural before we cut.
Love the idea of less Saturdays all day in a gym and setting up more duals. More time for kids to be kids on weekends.
I'm with you. Say it all day long the State, the NCAAs and Olympics are all that matter. K-12 kids love duals. Heck, anyone who watches BTN knows college kids love duals. I love duals!! ;)
I love the duals idea and think it will help greatly with numbers but discussions in our club are that even in youth duals there are just too many weight classes to fill. I think this is why most of the duals are wrestled by private clubs because they have a lot more kids.
I absolutely think we need more duals but again I would keep the age groups to maybe 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8 and fewer weight classes. Can still have exhibitions which are great matches because again parents are in the stands.
It seems some duals have so many weight classes and then combine 3 or more grades to fill them. I think we could get more community based teams if there were not so many weight classes to fill.
I would love to see our middles school conference have a dual tournament.
Padre is one of the leaders in our middle school conference so hoping they will organize something. I think it would be outstanding. I think teaching middle school kids what it is to be part of a team competition and how to make weight will help them better prepare for high school and they will stay with it longer.
Duals are generally a pretty good deal for kids, parents, and coaches. You are right Points.
MN has had a youth team-State tournament (NYWA) for many years. The state is broken into 5 regions to qualify for this event. I've heard good things about the STMA event from friends, but never had a team participate in it. We did participate in NYWA, and it was also common to set up dual meets with rival schools. Sometimes the youth dual would be happening on a mat right next to Varsity. It was a good way to fill the stands and get some noise going. If teams haven't done this yet, try it out, the little ones love it.
But....I've been essentially copying what is being done on a MN thread, their percentages are nearly identical to ours, and that's with Junior High kids available to wrestle varsity. Even 106 and 113 are pretty close to the same. As a big fan of JHI and long-time believer that it made a sizable difference in the overall numbers (but not necessarily on varsity) I didn't see that coming. :o So do youth duals contribute to filling all 14 weights? It doesn't quite appear to be true, at least not from what we can see in their varsity numbers. However they don't only do duals for youth, so maybe if they did?? Not really sure how to interpret it. ???
I believe for building teams you have to focus on the dual aspect alot or at least some. Kids seem to like it (just my take on it) and hanging with buddies is also a win/win for many.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 25, 2017, 07:32:14 AM
Handles,
PA is big in to the dual style tournaments k-12, maybe because they have 15 weight classes to fill in HS. PA doesn't have JHI but a great middle school format, maybe MN has it wrong and we should not use them as a model to aspire to be like.
PA has 14 weight classes in high school...New York does have 15 because they added 98#
Exciting dual meets. Emulate successful programs get the dual meet to be exciting and competitive people will come. Kids want to be part of of a winning program. I do NOT think cutting weights does anything to advance wrestling. Now with that said coaches need to do more to make sure that kids move around (wrestle up or down) and get matches. Coaches and ADs need to do more to make sure that the crowds and spectators get to see wrestling not a bunch of FF. That may mean that you have multiple duals on the same evening. See making wrestling better starts with the guy or gal you see in the mirror every day when you get up in the morning NOBODY ELSE.
ramjet+100
Quote from: aarons23 on January 25, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 25, 2017, 07:32:14 AM
Handles,
PA is big in to the dual style tournaments k-12, maybe because they have 15 weight classes to fill in HS. PA doesn't have JHI but a great middle school format, maybe MN has it wrong and we should not use them as a model to aspire to be like.
PA has 14 weight classes in high school...New York does have 15 because they added 98#
And NY uses 8th grade on varsity.
But points, comparing a state with 2x the population the other two is a bit unfair and disingenuous right? We won't have an influx of 7 million people to help save our wrestling programs next year or the year after that.... I like youth duals, been in favor of them most of my career. I was just saying that even though MN has been doing it for years, it isn't having quite the same results on varsity numbers as you are predicting. I still think they are a good idea. Also with JHI having all of the middle school wrestlers on JV along with the other non varsity high schooler's, they get some really good JV duals going almost weekly, so perhaps you would consider supporting it?
Quote from: Handles II on January 25, 2017, 12:10:14 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 25, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 25, 2017, 07:32:14 AM
Handles,
PA is big in to the dual style tournaments k-12, maybe because they have 15 weight classes to fill in HS. PA doesn't have JHI but a great middle school format, maybe MN has it wrong and we should not use them as a model to aspire to be like.
PA has 14 weight classes in high school...New York does have 15 because they added 98#
And NY uses 8th grade on varsity.
But points, comparing a state with 2x the population the other two is a bit unfair and disingenuous right? We won't have an influx of 7 million people to help save our wrestling programs next year or the year after that.... I like youth duals, been in favor of them most of my career. I was just saying that even though MN has been doing it for years, it isn't having quite the same results on varsity numbers as you are predicting. I still think they are a good idea. Also with JHI having all of the middle school wrestlers on JV along with the other non varsity high schooler's, they get some really good JV duals going almost weekly, so perhaps you would consider supporting it?
So comparing D1 to D3 would also be a bit unfair and disingenuos????
Sure, in some aspects of course. However we are seeing this issue in every division. It's hurting big and small schools. That's why it should be a concern for all of us regardless of the division we compete in or are fans of most often.
Quote from: ramjet on January 25, 2017, 10:06:59 AM
Exciting dual meets. Emulate successful programs get the dual meet to be exciting and competitive people will come. Kids want to be part of of a winning program. I do NOT think cutting weights does anything to advance wrestling. Now with that said coaches need to do more to make sure that kids move around (wrestle up or down) and get matches. Coaches and ADs need to do more to make sure that the crowds and spectators get to see wrestling not a bunch of FF. That may mean that you have multiple duals on the same evening. See making wrestling better starts with the guy or gal you see in the mirror every day when you get up in the morning NOBODY ELSE.
Totally agree that exciting dual meets is something we need. Music. Lights, whatever it takes. We don't even charge admission most of our duals. We ran through the inflatable tunnel. (BTW, you could too. Contact your nearest Army recruiter. They are free.)
Multiple duals on one night, right now, doesn't make sense for a lot of teams. I'll use my own for example.We have 4 (sometimes 5) varsity kids. It doesn't make sense for me to schedule multi-duals and possibly get two matches when I can send my kids to a scramble and possibly get 5 at the level they need them. My 2-9 kid needs to wrestle 2-9 kids at some point so he can get a competitive match. We also have a 20-6 kid. Most teams with numbers that are small don't have kids to match up. Teams already have their max duals with the seven conference duals.
The 4-4-4 idea has been bounced around, but how about this: Get rid of conference duals altogether, and have 14 dates you can wrestle with a max number of competitions. Let's be honest. While we'll put 4 pretty good kids out, Port Washington doesn't want to waste a date on us. They'd be better off wrestling Slinger or someone on their level. We'd schedule duals against teams that would actually make sense.
Also, do we really HAVE to have each kid taking a FF go to the center and have their hand raised? We FF every weight from 170-285. The parade of warm bodies just takes time and deflates the atmosphere. Why not just get to the contested matches and build excitement that way?
I agree with all your points. It also helps the small schools with great programs to schedule duals against D1 teams. Then you could have a conference tournament that would be fun and not just a bunch or rematches.
The only problem with this is that AD's would hate wrestling even more. The great benefit of conferences is that it makes scheduling very easy for AD's.
Could you forfeit to Port Washington and each of you gets to pick up another dual?
The other negative is that all the 5 varsity guy teams are not going to get duals or they are going to last 10 minutes against another 5 guy team and those programs will be gone fast.
I can't believe how boring many duals have gotten with JV warm-ups, JV matches, break, varsity warm-up, then varsity matches. Then you add the forfeits getting hands raised. Why do we drag it out so long? If you have two mats wrestle both at the same time! Oh that's right. Their is no money to pay 2 refs anymore (one for each mat) 2 matches at once and everyone there all at once creates atmosphere and again was "the way we used to do it when I wrestled"
Someone should crunch the numbers of non-competitive (or all) dual meets. 14 weight classes.
How many contested matches?
How many of those ended in the A)1st period B)2nd period C)3rd period D)Full match or OT?
Maybe even track total mat time for the duals?
There are too many duals where only a few matches even make the second period. Those numbers would clarify the real problem wrestling has. Yet maybe it is better for the sport if the AD's don't see those numbers.
Quote from: Handles II on January 25, 2017, 01:50:33 PM
Sure, in some aspects of course. However we are seeing this issue in every division. It's hurting big and small schools. That's why it should be a concern for all of us regardless of the division we compete in or are fans of most often.
what concerns me is the people who think the answer is cutting weight classes. ::)
Quote from: aarons23 on January 25, 2017, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: Handles II on January 25, 2017, 01:50:33 PM
Sure, in some aspects of course. However we are seeing this issue in every division. It's hurting big and small schools. That's why it should be a concern for all of us regardless of the division we compete in or are fans of most often.
what concerns me is the people who think the answer is cutting weight classes. ::)
so 75% of head coaches concern you
Quote from: Ghetto on January 25, 2017, 01:58:43 PM
Quote from: ramjet on January 25, 2017, 10:06:59 AM
Exciting dual meets. Emulate successful programs get the dual meet to be exciting and competitive people will come. Kids want to be part of of a winning program. I do NOT think cutting weights does anything to advance wrestling. Now with that said coaches need to do more to make sure that kids move around (wrestle up or down) and get matches. Coaches and ADs need to do more to make sure that the crowds and spectators get to see wrestling not a bunch of FF. That may mean that you have multiple duals on the same evening. See making wrestling better starts with the guy or gal you see in the mirror every day when you get up in the morning NOBODY ELSE.
Totally agree that exciting dual meets is something we need. Music. Lights, whatever it takes. We don't even charge admission most of our duals. We ran through the inflatable tunnel. (BTW, you could too. Contact your nearest Army recruiter. They are free.)
Multiple duals on one night, right now, doesn't make sense for a lot of teams. I'll use my own for example.We have 4 (sometimes 5) varsity kids. It doesn't make sense for me to schedule multi-duals and possibly get two matches when I can send my kids to a scramble and possibly get 5 at the level they need them. My 2-9 kid needs to wrestle 2-9 kids at some point so he can get a competitive match. We also have a 20-6 kid. Most teams with numbers that are small don't have kids to match up. Teams already have their max duals with the seven conference duals.
The 4-4-4 idea has been bounced around, but how about this: Get rid of conference duals altogether, and have 14 dates you can wrestle with a max number of competitions. Let's be honest. While we'll put 4 pretty good kids out, Port Washington doesn't want to waste a date on us. They'd be better off wrestling Slinger or someone on their level. We'd schedule duals against teams that would actually make sense.
Also, do we really HAVE to have each kid taking a FF go to the center and have their hand raised? We FF every weight from 170-285. The parade of warm bodies just takes time and deflates the atmosphere. Why not just get to the contested matches and build excitement that way?
You know what I like about your post Ghetto?
Ideas!!!!! Ideas and dialogue about ideas that work for you that work for you and your program. The idea one size fits all is what makes this tough. So, WIAA loosen your reign of terror and allow programs flexibility in scheduling of dual meets, it is a start.
If schools were allowed to setup duals without lines of size or classification it may allow the schools participating to fashion exciting matches that benefit thier wrestlers and programs.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 25, 2017, 04:16:15 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 25, 2017, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: Handles II on January 25, 2017, 01:50:33 PM
Sure, in some aspects of course. However we are seeing this issue in every division. It's hurting big and small schools. That's why it should be a concern for all of us regardless of the division we compete in or are fans of most often.
what concerns me is the people who think the answer is cutting weight classes. ::)
so 75% of head coaches concern you
If its actually 75% that wants to cut...then yes.
I'm not for eliminating the little guys. The wrestling talent falls off faster at the upper weights than the lower. We should have never added 195 when we eliminated a middle weight. We made the upper weights weaker.
A few years ago we took a first year hwt wrestler to Bi State he got 8th. At his experience level he'd been lucky to win a match at 106. I'd like to eliminate the ff but not at the cost of our smaller members.
I am not sure about elimation the little guys either.
I liken this to when they took a weight out of the lower end and put it in the upper end I think that caused some problems.
some one said some posts ago that they felt it was a misstake to go to 14 weights and going back to 13 would be a correction of a failed experiment. I do agree with that on some levels.
I think if you loosened the restrictions of the 7 and 7 it would allow a team like Ghetto to find scrambles. It also would allow teams that have full line ups to maybe do more duals if that is what they need.
I think it is pretty evident to almost everyone watching that 195 and 220 are two weight classes with arguably the most forefeits and uncompetitive matches. Are these good wrestlers in these weight classes...For sure. Why cut competitive matches for areas where there is less competition.
I thought at first when they added 215 I thought that would dip into the hwt area and a decade latter I truely believe it has. now add another weight in that are and I think it has become watered down on the whole.
Now at the state level, you get some hammers across the board to say the least. It is just harder for smaller schools to get basically 3 guys over 200 pounds to get on the mat.
People have to remember while the D1 schools might not have a problem getting them or having football coaches support that but if you go to a football game at D4-D7 levels they might not have 3 guys over 200 pounds on the entire team. So getting football coaches behind getting football players out is kiind of a mute point.
I wouldnt might seeing going back to the old weight classes but not allowing growth allowances so 125 at the finals of individual state isnt 130.
go back to the old weights in the mid 200's and make the top 3,,,,,185, 205 and HWT. I think that ups the competition in general of those weights.
I know I will get some backlash about this from D1 guys but as a whole to continue with 14 weights I truely believe school may find it easier to fill out lower weights then upper as a state wide whole.
I understand there will be some cases at what ever schools of having 3 guys over 200 and not being able to get them all in the line up but going as a state as a whole.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 26, 2017, 12:35:29 PM
go back to the old weights in the mid 200's and make the top 3,,,,,185, 205 and HWT. I think that ups the competition in general of those weights.
I know I will get some backlash about this from D1 guys but as a whole to continue with 14 weights I truely believe school may find it easier to fill out lower weights then upper as a state wide whole.
I understand there will be some cases at what ever schools of having 3 guys over 200 and not being able to get them all in the line up but going as a state as a whole.
That would be much better.
I like the growth allowance, but make wrestlers make scratch weight so the allowance is used as it was intended to allow for growth thru out the season not so you can drop another weight class.
Quote from: mhsfan2 on January 26, 2017, 12:57:48 PM
I like the growth allowance, but make wrestlers make scratch weight so the allowance is used as it was intended to allow for growth thru out the season not so you can drop another weight class.
I have harped on this for years. Half if not more of the 106lbrs at State will have wrestled most of the year at 113, 113s will have been mainly at 120 ect. It is not currently being used as a growth allowance, but a tool to get down to a lower weight class. The fact that you only have to hold that weight for a few weeks makes it even more attractive to cut. If you had to wrestle at least half your matches during the year at that weight you would not have this.
Quote from: 1Iota on January 26, 2017, 03:40:57 PM
Quote from: mhsfan2 on January 26, 2017, 12:57:48 PM
I like the growth allowance, but make wrestlers make scratch weight so the allowance is used as it was intended to allow for growth thru out the season not so you can drop another weight class.
I have harped on this for years. Half if not more of the 106lbrs at State will have wrestled most of the year at 113, 113s will have been mainly at 120 ect. It is not currently being used as a growth allowance, but a tool to get down to a lower weight class. The fact that you only have to hold that weight for a few weeks makes it even more attractive to cut. If you had to wrestle at least half your matches during the year at that weight you would not have this.
I 100% agree. Wrestlers that do grow can move up a weight class if they can't hold it. Making scratch weight once does not do much. I would be for a wrestler must make the weight class they want to wrestle at regionals at every weigh in after January 1st or maybe give them one exception. They can always move up a weight class but must make that lower weight at weigh-ins. Would be very easy for coaches to keep track of. No growth allowance. Pick a weight class at the start that you can "grow" into! need to start penalizing the guys cutting a lot or too much rather than rewarding them.
I've been on the NFHS lately, devouring numbers and accumulating contact information. I plan on compiling all of our data and sending it in for them to look at, I'm quite sure they aren't paying attention to the actual numbers. However, this is something I found most interesting (and depressing?). I believe this may have been posted by others in the past, maybe using different years. I decided to list by decades. :o
Why is it that we need 14 weights again?
According to NFHS info: Wrestling, Wisconsin
Year #Schools #Wrestlers
1974 378 20,084 12 weights
1984 361 11,250 12 weights
1994 365 7,370 13 weights
2004 348 7,288 14 weights
The issue is you have NOT made a compelling argument against 14 weights using erroneous numbers and stats to say it causes declining participation overall is akin to saying if you eat 10 French fries instead of 14 you will be skinnier. Sure....... maybe, but the issue is not the number of French Fries as much as it it is THE FRENCH FRIES.
IF YOU WANT TO INCREASE THE PARTICIPATION LEVELS IN WRESTLING LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. THAT PERSON YOU SEE IN THE MIRROR EVERY MORNING IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN TRUELY CHANGE THINGS.
Those are the numbers.
No one (ok, I can't speak for everyone, but...) is saying that increasing weights CAUSED the decline in numbers. As much as I am for less weights, I don't think there is a correlation between the two. But we can agree that increasing weights did not increase the number of kids wrestling. There is no question there.
Here is where we disagree: I believe that we should make wrestling exciting, work on ideas to build programs,AND at the same time lower the amount of weights. I no longer want to wait. All sports are trending down, I get that. Kids are not playing more than one sport, and all kinds of other things.
The bottom line is that there are less kids wrestling and we are keeping the same amount of weights.
Well apparently everyone doesn't believe less is better for wrestling....
Also on the docket are new weight classes starting in 2018. 55 kg, 60 kg, 65 kg, 70 kg, 75 kg, 80 kg, 85 kg, 90 kg, 100 kg, and 130 kg. 2020's Tokyo Olympics will still only host six weight classes, but a couple of extra non-Olympic weights along with a more logical ascension seems like a step in the right direction
BTW....with the addition on non Olympic weights there will be a total of 14 weights at the international level. Good thing they don't believe growing the sport is accomplished by diminishing it.
Current world population:
7,480,316,918
It's a little creepy to watch it go up and down, knowing that those are births and deaths...
Current Wisconsin population:
5,758,000
I know that you and I are not ever going to agree on this, but I don't think adjusting the weight classes diminishes our sport. I don't think it reduces opportunities.
The national federation just sent a survey out about building wrestling, and there was a question on how many weights to take out. Apparently there are others out there that think adjusting the weights might be an option.
Actually Aarons, the number of french fries IS the issue. Some is fine, but too many is unhealthy. It's quite odd that you can't understand that. ??? We have increased the number of weights as the participation numbers have gone down and the number of forfeits has gone up. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. It should be no shock that we are losing programs. The numbers I have shown are not erroneous as much as you might like them to be.
I never said 14 weights caused wrestling participation to drop (aside from situations where schools decided to cut programs because the team couldn't fill it's varsity, much less JV weight classes and then we lost an entire program). What I have been saying all along is that A. going to 14 weights did not help improve numbers B. 14 weights is causing more forfeits and thus hurting the sport and individual programs.
It's also rather a bunch of BS with your "look in the mirror". I would say that ALL of us on this board love this sport and do everything we can to help improve participation and/or keep kids involved. I know that all the other coaches I've worked with, met, etc. are doing the same thing. If you don't agree, then the problem is within you, because it's a non-stop, year-round recruit fest with fun and games and camping trips and bowling and swimming and posters and highlights videos etc above and beyond the practices, and competitions. If you are blind to the efforts that coaches are making state-wide, large and small schools, then dude, open your eyes. It's happening. It just doesn't always work as well as we want.
I understand you hate all these numbers but they are showing the reality of the situation. Alternative facts don't fly in this sport.
Quote from: Handles II on January 27, 2017, 10:12:40 AM
Actually Aarons, the number of french fries IS the issue. Some is fine, but too many is unhealthy. It's quite odd that you can't understand that. ??? We have increased the number of weights as the participation numbers have gone down and the number of forfeits has gone up. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. It should be no shock that we are losing programs. The numbers I have shown are not erroneous as much as you might like them to be.
I never said 14 weights caused wrestling participation to drop (aside from situations where schools decided to cut programs because the team couldn't fill it's varsity, much less JV weight classes and then we lost an entire program). What I have been saying all along is that A. going to 14 weights did not help improve numbers B. 14 weights is causing more forfeits and thus hurting the sport and individual programs.
It's also rather a bunch of BS with your "look in the mirror". I would say that ALL of us on this board love this sport and do everything we can to help improve participation and/or keep kids involved. I know that all the other coaches I've worked with, met, etc. are doing the same thing. If you don't agree, then the problem is within you, because it's a non-stop, year-round recruit fest with fun and games and camping trips and bowling and swimming and posters and highlights videos etc above and beyond the practices, and competitions. If you are blind to the efforts that coaches are making state-wide, large and small schools, then dude, open your eyes. It's happening. It just doesn't always work as well as we want.
I understand you hate all these numbers but they are showing the reality of the situation. Alternative facts don't fly in this sport.
Hate numbers? French Fries? Really? What I hate is trying to tie numbers to what young adults do....14 weight classes has about the right number of spans between weights....less weight classes increases cutting, does not guarantee less forfeits.
Cutting weight classes will make it harder for teams who struggle with numbers to get new wrestlers to try it....they will see the writing on the wall. Cutting weight classes will make the strong teams stronger. But I know you already know this....I suppose those at the top who just voted to increase the number of weight classes at the international level, must hate numbers also....be sure to include them in a copy of your rant.
you brought up the french fries... ???
Aarons,
I made it a goal in life never to get into a direct debate with you because you just rant! Have to speak now.
Comparing HS wrestling weight classes to Olympic weight classes is comical. They will never be short wrestlers. And please then correlate that argument with the fact that we have 10 weight classes in college. College and international wrestling could have 25 weight classes and they would still be able to fill them as the numbers would be there at that level. But they don't have that many for numerous reasons.
I also find your look in the mirror argument offensive. You repeatedly think that those in other communities are simply doing nothing or not enough. A few may not be but most are trying hard. You routinely throw coaches under the bus as they must not be doing enough. I am sure they all are not perfect but they are trying hard and feeling pressure from administrators and parents. There are not a bunch of new coaches just waiting to take their spots and make it better. Everyone on this board is looking in the mirror which is why they are participating in this discussion and they can try to help their local teams but they have no way to change the sport as a whole whether it is at the state level or across the Midwest. Even if they make their program better that have to go to duals where forfeits reign. They cannot change the other programs.
Frankly, I can take others saying to look in the mirror but not from you. You have done very little to help what was your home district. While I don't fault you at all for school choicing your kids to all different schools to find better opportunities, I find it hypocritical for you to tell others to look in the mirror and help their local programs when you simply found better or more successful programs to join. I don't doubt that you are likely helping these programs but many are struggling because kids left their programs rather than trying to build it. For many on here it would have also been easier to just school choice to a different school.
We will never agree on this issue and I have no problems with that because I have no sure ideas that will change things for the better. But stop calling people out like they are the true problem and not doing enough. That arrogance has to stop. I may regret posting this later but finally fed up. There are people in all these communities fighting hard for their programs and they are good people and they do not need to be thrown under the bus over and over by you. Others are offering ideas and you just say that the problem is the people leading all these programs. I disagree!
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 27, 2017, 11:12:29 AM
Aarons,
I made it a goal in life never to get into a direct debate with you because you just rant! Have to speak now.
Comparing HS wrestling weight classes to Olympic weight classes is comical. They will never be short wrestlers. And please then correlate that argument with the fact that we have 10 weight classes in college. College and international wrestling could have 25 weight classes and they would still be able to fill them as the numbers would be there at that level. But they don't have that many for numerous reasons.
I also find your look in the mirror argument offensive. You repeatedly think that those in other communities are simply doing nothing or not enough. A few may not be but most are trying hard. You routinely throw coaches under the bus as they must not be doing enough. I am sure they all are not perfect but they are trying hard and feeling pressure from administrators and parents. There are not a bunch of new coaches just waiting to take their spots and make it better. Everyone on this board is looking in the mirror which is why they are participating in this discussion and they can try to help their local teams but they have no way to change the sport as a whole whether it is at the state level or across the Midwest. Even if they make their program better that have to go to duals where forfeits reign. They cannot change the other programs.
Frankly, I can take others saying to look in the mirror but not from you. You have done very little to help what was your home district. While I don't fault you at all for school choicing your kids to all different schools to find better opportunities, I find it hypocritical for you to tell others to look in the mirror and help their local programs when you simply found better or more successful programs to join. I don't doubt that you are likely helping these programs but many are struggling because kids left their programs rather than trying to build it. For many on here it would have also been easier to just school choice to a different school.
We will never agree on this issue and I have no problems with that because I have no sure ideas that will change things for the better. But stop calling people out like they are the true problem and not doing enough. That arrogance has to stop. I may regret posting this later but finally fed up. There are people in all these communities fighting hard for their programs and they are good people and they do not need to be thrown under the bus over and over by you. Others are offering ideas and you just say that the problem is the people leading all these programs. I disagree!
Well stated. Easier to go to the green grass then make your own better.
Quote from: Handles II on January 27, 2017, 11:11:42 AM
you brought up the french fries... ???
I never brought up French fries?
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 27, 2017, 11:12:29 AM
Aarons,
I made it a goal in life never to get into a direct debate with you because you just rant! Have to speak now.
Comparing HS wrestling weight classes to Olympic weight classes is comical. They will never be short wrestlers. And please then correlate that argument with the fact that we have 10 weight classes in college. College and international wrestling could have 25 weight classes and they would still be able to fill them as the numbers would be there at that level. But they don't have that many for numerous reasons.
I also find your look in the mirror argument offensive. You repeatedly think that those in other communities are simply doing nothing or not enough. A few may not be but most are trying hard. You routinely throw coaches under the bus as they must not be doing enough. I am sure they all are not perfect but they are trying hard and feeling pressure from administrators and parents. There are not a bunch of new coaches just waiting to take their spots and make it better. Everyone on this board is looking in the mirror which is why they are participating in this discussion and they can try to help their local teams but they have no way to change the sport as a whole whether it is at the state level or across the Midwest. Even if they make their program better that have to go to duals where forfeits reign. They cannot change the other programs.
Frankly, I can take others saying to look in the mirror but not from you. You have done very little to help what was your home district. While I don't fault you at all for school choicing your kids to all different schools to find better opportunities, I find it hypocritical for you to tell others to look in the mirror and help their local programs when you simply found better or more successful programs to join. I don't doubt that you are likely helping these programs but many are struggling because kids left their programs rather than trying to build it. For many on here it would have also been easier to just school choice to a different school.
We will never agree on this issue and I have no problems with that because I have no sure ideas that will change things for the better. But stop calling people out like they are the true problem and not doing enough. That arrogance has to stop. I may regret posting this later but finally fed up. There are people in all these communities fighting hard for their programs and they are good people and they do not need to be thrown under the bus over and over by you. Others are offering ideas and you just say that the problem is the people leading all these programs. I disagree!
Lol....you can think what you want about open enrollment.... But you have no clue...as far as what I have done for the sport you also have no clue. My post have been consistent.....and will stay consistent.....show me one place I degraded a coach? I have said great coaches don't always make great program builders....do you dispute that? I also notice you preferred to take a personal attack on me rather than address the points I made. I guess you just don't lime it when someone challenges your thinking.
The correlation of international number of weight classes is directly from the 3 same guys on here who have made the argument on here several times that Olympics only have 6 and college has only 10. At least at the Olympic level they feel they are best to grow.... A sport 2 years ago they were eliminating from the Olympics.
Quote from: Ghetto on January 27, 2017, 10:04:38 AM
Current world population:
7,480,316,918
It's a little creepy to watch it go up and down, knowing that those are births and deaths...
Current Wisconsin population:
5,758,000
I know that you and I are not ever going to agree on this, but I don't think adjusting the weight classes diminishes our sport. I don't think it reduces opportunities.
The national federation just sent a survey out about building wrestling, and there was a question on how many weights to take out. Apparently there are others out there that think adjusting the weights might be an option.
I saw that survey. Maybe I should just pass it along to someone that would answer it better than I would,
I find it great that on the olympic level they are increasing the numbers of weights. I agree that 2 years ago that there was talk of getting rid of it. Glad to see it gaining steam.
Though I may say that there are some interesting things that wrestling did to "brighten" up the sport. On that level they know it is all about marketing.
College level, bottom line is they are NOT going to increase the weight classes because of the money aspect. Wrestling has 9.9 scholarships and basically 25-30 man teams. You have to love wrestling to want to continue at the college level especially when the money really isnt there. Sure Iowa, Penn State and Ok State probably turn a profit but only 77? D1 programs. Basically the support isnt there for another 30-40 teams which would get more weight classes. Even in the day when there were alot more schools having wrestling the weight classes werent really different.
high school, while I understand that it is about giving kids the chance to do something they havent and getting kids more and more chances. I think that many that have been involved in wrestling have given kids more than ample chances to be a part of a youth, middle and high school teams.
Examples: finding ways to get fees paid
giving rides and finding rides for kids
helping with school work and grades
dealing with more than friendly house holds
making deals with football coaches to help support the program
maybe paying more attention to getting kids out than the ones that are out
having FF isnt being a marketable team to alot of districts and their respective fan base.
Bottom line is something has to change because by looking at numbers alone, you can see the amount of high schools that have dropped wrestling or have co-op and the amount of kids that are not coming out.
Also this isnt just a wrestling thing. The numbers are dropping in most sports while school enrollment is increasing. NOt a good sign for sports in general.
Also, my arguement to the WIAA has always been if it is for the kids and giving them chances, why in the heck isnt it double elimanation in all sports at state. Also why is there not placing to 3rd in the team stuff such as basketball, wrestling and so on.
When I have presented that arguement to any WIAA official I have never recieved a comment back from them. Which in turn leads me to think that it is about the $$ for them and that is all.
Face people, sports arent the sports we once thought it was. Any body ever drove by a play ground and seen kids out just playing. There is usually an adult there directing.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 27, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
Also this isnt just a wrestling thing. The numbers are dropping in most sports while school enrollment is increasing. NOt a good sign for sports in general.
Also, my arguement to the WIAA has always been if it is for the kids and giving them chances, why in the heck isnt it double elimanation in all sports at state. Also why is there not placing to 3rd in the team stuff such as basketball, wrestling and so on.
When I have presented that arguement to any WIAA official I have never recieved a comment back from them. Which in turn leads me to think that it is about the $$ for them and that is all.
Face people, sports arent the sports we once thought it was. Any body ever drove by a play ground and seen kids out just playing. There is usually an adult there directing.
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 27, 2017, 11:29:26 AM
Quote from: Handles II on January 27, 2017, 11:11:42 AM
you brought up the french fries... ???
I never brought up French fries?
Uh yeah, you did. "saying if you eat 10 French fries instead of 14 you will be skinnier."
Going to 4 Divisions is an economic decision. More kids participating more people show up.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 27, 2017, 12:53:52 PM
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 27, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
Also this isnt just a wrestling thing. The numbers are dropping in most sports while school enrollment is increasing. NOt a good sign for sports in general.
Also, my arguement to the WIAA has always been if it is for the kids and giving them chances, why in the heck isnt it double elimanation in all sports at state. Also why is there not placing to 3rd in the team stuff such as basketball, wrestling and so on.
When I have presented that arguement to any WIAA official I have never recieved a comment back from them. Which in turn leads me to think that it is about the $$ for them and that is all.
Face people, sports arent the sports we once thought it was. Any body ever drove by a play ground and seen kids out just playing. There is usually an adult there directing.
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
I have also heard the WIAA is also open to 2 divisions from my source.
At least they are looking at something to try to keep wrestling on the up and up.
They add divisions in other sports might as well do it in wrestling.
Also if they go to 2 divisions or 4 I believe the increase in number of kids that make it to state might increase also, which in this day and age would be good for all the ribbons that can be given out.
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
[/quote]
Then the WIAA can wrap team and individual state into the same weekend by starting Wednesday evening. Friday morning starts team duals. Friday night is individual finals. Saturday morning is Team dual semis and finals. Then Saturday night is the Coaches Association grand individual champion tournament (separate ticket from WIAA series but same venue) for any State Champions that enters the 4 man bracket seeded. Maybe the Saturday night grand team championship is more realistic, but I would rather watch the grand individual championship mini tournament.
If the move is to 2 divisions rather than 4, does a grand champion become any more or less likely?
Quote from: Numbers on January 27, 2017, 01:35:44 PM
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
Then the WIAA can wrap team and individual state into the same weekend by starting Wednesday evening. Friday morning starts team duals. Friday night is individual finals. Saturday morning is Team dual semis and finals. Then Saturday night is the Coaches Association grand individual champion tournament (separate ticket from WIAA series but same venue) for any State Champions that enters the 4 man bracket seeded. Maybe the Saturday night grand team championship is more realistic, but I would rather watch the grand individual championship mini tournament.
If the move is to 2 divisions rather than 4, does a grand champion become any more or less likely?
[/quote]
That would be worth the price of admission!
Quote from: wrastle63 on January 27, 2017, 01:37:16 PM
Quote from: Numbers on January 27, 2017, 01:35:44 PM
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
Then the WIAA can wrap team and individual state into the same weekend by starting Wednesday evening. Friday morning starts team duals. Friday night is individual finals. Saturday morning is Team dual semis and finals. Then Saturday night is the Coaches Association grand individual champion tournament (separate ticket from WIAA series but same venue) for any State Champions that enters the 4 man bracket seeded. Maybe the Saturday night grand team championship is more realistic, but I would rather watch the grand individual championship mini tournament.
If the move is to 2 divisions rather than 4, does a grand champion become any more or less likely?
That would be worth the price of admission!
[/quote]
This is my point...the WIAA does not seem to be nor do I think they should be interested in a grand champion. Yes is would be great for us spectators but it is not what the WIAA is worried about. They do not do it in any other sport, so I doubt you will ever see it in wrestling
Title IX has greatly affected wrestling and mostly negative which is why we need to grow female wrestling.
Nobody in the wrestling community wanted to cut weights at the Olympics level. That was an administrative decision by the IOC similar to how programs are being cut. FILA was a mess.
The IOC was threatening and was going to remove wrestling from the Olympics because wrestling did not have a female equivalent. A compromise was made to reduce the # of male weight classes and add womens. That saved wrestling at the olympics.
Now that there has been a reorganization with United World Wrestling they are adding weights again for national championships which is absolutely the right thing to do. There certainly is not a numbers problem.
If you took a survey of international coaches not one would have been for reducing the number of weight classes in the Olympics. That is not the case amongst high school coaches. Team USA could fill 100 weight classes but our high schools cannot and I don't see anything magically changing.
Two things are happening across all sports
1) Participation is down
2) The gap between the great players/wrestlers and the average players/wrestlers is growing due to numerous reasons from finances to training opportunities to commitment. This is leading to more athletes moving out of the high school system and into the club system even at the high school level.
I don't have the answers to reverse that trend and thus some administrative changes may need to be changed to help individual sports. Football has introduced 8-man football and is growing. Boys basketball changed this year from 8 minute quarters to 18 minute halves to try and increase participation by taking away stops/rests and thus coaches would have to play more players. Wrestling changes nothing but making coaches jobs harder with all these weight loss rules.
Aaron do like French Fries evidently Rick does not and he had too many tonight and posts are starting to run together for him........this is hilarious ;D ;D ;D ;D
Who are these sources and why aren't they on the same page?
Quote from: ramjet on January 27, 2017, 09:20:45 PM
Aaron do like French Fries evidently Rick does not and he had too many tonight and posts are starting to run together for him........this is hilarious ;D ;D ;D ;D
I actually love french fries but had cut back...lol
Doc from your previous pot: "The gap between the great players/wrestlers and the average players/wrestlers is growing due to numerous reasons from finances to training opportunities to commitment. This is leading to more athletes moving out of the high school system and into the club system even at the high school level."
I absolutely agree with the first sentence but not the second. Do you think there are kids in WI who wrestle club and do not wrestle in their respective high school program? I literally have never heard of this here.
I have an honest question for all.
Doc, you alluded to the fact in your previous post that sports numbers are down overall and this is true.
Why do we insist kids particiate in a sport they are not interested in doing?
We all know the benefits wrestling provides if course. Many of us have personal experience in recruiting a wrestler and watching it change their life positively so yes, that is one reason. Overall though, I have spent my whole career recruiting and hammering away constantly forcing a program forward (sometimes very sucessfully, sometimes not). As time has gone on, I have been less and less able to "make things happen". Emulating other successful programs, doing every little thing. My passion for the sport has not waned but honeslty what are we doing? I am against retraction. If it happens it night help, it might not. I believe it won't. Either way, I just see it staving of the inevitable for a short time. Maybe kids just don't want to wrestle. I know I'll get attacked by many on this site but when you coach other sports where you get enough kids where you have to cut and they alreay possess skills you realize something is wrong. I think now we have this concentration of wrestlers in certain schools with open enrollment. You have fewer and fewer but stronger strong wrestling schools.
What does everyone say?
Still recruiting to little avail.
Wrestlers are not leaving for clubs now but they are in other sports. I am just predicting that these private clubs could literally organize and form their own association that can go across state lines, etc. I am not even saying this would be the absolutely worst thing but kids with out the finances get left behind and also the kids that are limited by geography and don't have a private club nearby.
Many kids wrestle club instead of with their middle school programs. I see that carrying to high school.
I agree that many kids do not want to wrestle. Even I was a 3-sport athlete and wrestling was my least favorite at the time but as time has gone by I realized I gained more from wrestling with pride and hard work which breeds my passion to help the sport. I have a personal philosophy that we have softened wrestling over the years. People used to look at wrestlers with great respect and wrestlers had great pride that they could battle in this individual sport with the tough practices, etc. I think that pride has been lost with giving every 3rd grader a trophy at each tournament and making every freshman varsity and earning a letter. Kids today know that youth wrestlers have more medals and trophies than the kids in any other sport. High school freshman and sophomores know that the easiest way to earn a letter in those grades is to be a wrestler. Wrestling has changed as we give everything to kids to recruit them to come out for the sport or stay in the sport. Maybe we shrink the sport with fewer weight classes (and yest I would not be against going all the way to 10) and now every kid has to earn it and maybe we have "true" wrestlers in the sport rather than guys we recruiting because they weigh the right amount. That might be better for the sport but having a ton of kids trying wrestling might be better for he individuals because wrestling has so much to give
Quote from: Numbers on January 27, 2017, 01:35:44 PM
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
Then the WIAA can wrap team and individual state into the same weekend by starting Wednesday evening. Friday morning starts team duals. Friday night is individual finals. Saturday morning is Team dual semis and finals. Then Saturday night is the Coaches Association grand individual champion tournament (separate ticket from WIAA series but same venue) for any State Champions that enters the 4 man bracket seeded. Maybe the Saturday night grand team championship is more realistic, but I would rather watch the grand individual championship mini tournament.
If the move is to 2 divisions rather than 4, does a grand champion become any more or less likely?
[/quote]
I have a hard time believing the WIAA would ever start on a Wednesday night(at least individual state) knowing that that will take kids out of school for 3 days of the week. About 12 or 13 years ago there was a scheduling snafu and the State Tournament had to be done Wed-Fri. IIRC, the WIAA was very apologetic about it because of taking kids out of school on a Wednesday.
Doc, thanks for the thoughtful response.
I agree that likely sports will eventually move out of schools. I think overall this is more bad than good but I believe it will be the reality in the future. We already kind of have it with athletes concentrating in certain schools for certain sports. There are some schools where most of the sports are strong but they are rare and usually in affluent communities. I also agree that much of this is the result of economics as you mentiond.
I have beaten my head against the wall with wrestling for nearly 40 years. I have had good years near the top and bad years actually on THE bottom. I have never stopped doing the right things and emulating the behaviors of successful programs. There are situations where quite honestly, it can't be done. Some will hear this and characterize it as giving up and not "looking at the man in the mirror". They are entitled to their opinion of course but they have NO idea what one does or has done.
Often people claim there is this atmosphere of a "trophy for all". Actually, I saw this a bit 30 years ago but not so much today honestly.
I agree that softeneing wrestling will not work. We keep trying to keep kids out. If you do so by softening wrestling, you'll never compete at the top level. Basically, you doom the kids to limited success. Like it or not, strivng for the top is the goal in any sport. Not getting there does not mean failure but you must do the thngs it takes to put you in position to reach the top, agreed?
On a related note. In my earliest days of coaching, my brother and I resurrected our school's wrestling program. We recruited like crazy, changed the climate, etc. We became at least modestly successful and for some periods quite successful. In the early days we battled hockey where hundreds of kids were content to dream they would become one of 15 future varsity athletes. I just shook my head in wonder and secretly hated losing kids to "that sport". Later it became kids wanting to skateboard instead of wrestling (yes, even in the winter). Some time later it became snowboarding. Again, it drove me crazy and I railed about losing kids who could have been varsity competitors.
You know what I am fighting them for now?............ NOTHING! They. Do. Nothing. They communicate on social media and that' about it. It isn't even video games as some suggest. Oh, there are a few vg players but it is not what many think. They don't go outside, they don't ride their bike(if they even own one), they do nothing.
Our school demographics have changed drastically in the last 20 years. This is affecting all of our sports programs though football is doing well. Football is unique in that it takes the least in skill development and time investment. We are at the tail end of success in others because the clubs are losing participation (soccer for example).
I know this sounds like I am giving up but it is what it is. It is apparent that I don't have the answer or I would not be posting this. I'll never give up bt it certainly feels like madness. We grow up in a sport where the answer always is work harder and smarter. When that does not work, what is the answer?
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 28, 2017, 07:16:06 AM
Wrestlers are not leaving for clubs now but they are in other sports. I am just predicting that these private clubs could literally organize and form their own association that can go across state lines, etc. I am not even saying this would be the absolutely worst thing but kids with out the finances get left behind and also the kids that are limited by geography and don't have a private club nearby.
Many kids wrestle club instead of with their middle school programs. I see that carrying to high school.
I agree that many kids do not want to wrestle. Even I was a 3-sport athlete and wrestling was my least favorite at the time but as time has gone by I realized I gained more from wrestling with pride and hard work which breeds my passion to help the sport. I have a personal philosophy that we have softened wrestling over the years. People used to look at wrestlers with great respect and wrestlers had great pride that they could battle in this individual sport with the tough practices, etc. I think that pride has been lost with giving every 3rd grader a trophy at each tournament and making every freshman varsity and earning a letter. Kids today know that youth wrestlers have more medals and trophies than the kids in any other sport. High school freshman and sophomores know that the easiest way to earn a letter in those grades is to be a wrestler. Wrestling has changed as we give everything to kids to recruit them to come out for the sport or stay in the sport. Maybe we shrink the sport with fewer weight classes (and yest I would not be against going all the way to 10) and now every kid has to earn it and maybe we have "true" wrestlers in the sport rather than guys we recruiting because they weigh the right amount. That might be better for the sport but having a ton of kids trying wrestling might be better for he individuals because wrestling has so much to give
Quote from: Numbers on January 27, 2017, 01:35:44 PM
Actually I have heard from a pretty good source that the WIAA is considering going to 4 divisions...not sure I agree with it or not but if true it would back up the mentality that the WIAA is more interested in giving kids experiences than it is about determining champions and that reasoning I agree with.
Then the WIAA can wrap team and individual state into the same weekend by starting Wednesday evening. Friday morning starts team duals. Friday night is individual finals. Saturday morning is Team dual semis and finals. Then Saturday night is the Coaches Association grand individual champion tournament (separate ticket from WIAA series but same venue) for any State Champions that enters the 4 man bracket seeded. Maybe the Saturday night grand team championship is more realistic, but I would rather watch the grand individual championship mini tournament.
If the move is to 2 divisions rather than 4, does a grand champion become any more or less likely?
[/quote]
I like your vision; but don't see it happening. Cool idea. Just worry about combining duals and ind. in the same time frame. The studs on good teams might "match out."
This is how MN does it. In the past the tournies were simultaneous. Now the team is separate but the same weekend.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 27, 2017, 10:21:57 PM
Quote from: ramjet on January 27, 2017, 09:20:45 PM
Aaron do like French Fries evidently Rick does not and he had too many tonight and posts are starting to run together for him........this is hilarious ;D ;D ;D ;D
I actually love french fries but had cut back...lol
Cut back from 14 to 10....... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Week of 1/28
We had a couple early conference tournaments this weekend (if we continue to think conference is important and a must-have, I like the idea of having it the last weekend in Jan vs the week before Regionals, and/or getting rid of Regionals) and a few other tournaments, though many teams did take the weekend off.
Once again we had scrambles and tournaments that included JV kids, but overall % are down in each weight class. Kids quit during the January stretch, so maybe some of that is showing up? That weird "dip" in numbers at 113 is still there despite growth allowance and some kids dropping to get used to the weight. 182, 195 and 220 all dropped significantly this week, and HWT was at an extreme low this week filling only 45% of the slots in brackets.
We had 134 teams participate and they were able to fill 64% of the weight classes with Varsity or JV guys. That equates to 8.9 varsity wrestlers per team. As a state we have not averaged 12 wrestlers per team even one time this entire year, and usually we are closer to 10 wrestlers.
Of 134:
106 - 91 67%
113 - 78 58%
120 - 93 69%
126 - 86 64%
132 - 92 68%
138 - 81 60%
145 - 100 74%
152 - 98 73%
160 - 92 68%
170 - 97 72%
182 - 79 58%
195 - 78 58%
220 - 82 61%
285 - 61 45%
Out of those 134 teams, 12 were able to fill 14 or more weights (JV/Var reserve wrestlers), 15 could fill 13 weights, 10 filled 12 weights,
18 filled 11 weights, and 12 filled 10 weights.
That equates to 50% of the teams were able to fill 10 weights or more, and 50% could not.
What hasn't been discussed is that a healthy sport needs more than just the 14 weight classes filled. Injuries are certainly happening as well as sickness and eligibility issues and while teams may be able to fill 14 spots at times it sure would be nice to have a system that was better set up so that team also had back-up at weights to fill in those instance.
We should strive for 2 guys at every weight class not just having one.
Remember some of those teams are varsity reserve and not a true indication of the varsity team. But still very good information.
Quote from: DocWrestling on January 31, 2017, 10:09:51 AM
What hasn't been discussed is that a healthy sport needs more than just the 14 weight classes filled. Injuries are certainly happening as well as sickness and eligibility issues and while teams may be able to fill 14 spots at times it sure would be nice to have a system that was better set up so that team also had back-up at weights to fill in those instance.
We should strive for 2 guys at every weight class not just having one.
Agreed, "Filling" weights is what some teams must do, and that might also be due to injury, etc, but at least a portion of these teams with 14 wrestlers, one or two are just filling slots. I get it, it's what we must do at times. Nobody thinks it's ideal. To your point of 2 wrestlers, looking at the NFHS numbers, in 1974 teams averaged 4.4 wrestlers per weight class, now we average 1.49.
Just throwing that out there. It is awesome when we see those teams with 2-3 guys per weight, but man, that was the AVERAGE, or not even quite, in 1974! :o
Want more kids in your room? Change our thinking.
No youth wrestling until 4th grade. Go fishing instead.
No medals or trophies. Green bananas for everyone instead. Then they can show off the banana for a week, then eat the banana and get the potassium boost. But if they want anyone to know about their accomplishment they need to go get a new banana next week.
Workouts should be 1/3 mental training, 1/3 cardio, and 1/3 technique. It then stands to reason that cans of spam, beef stew, grocery bags, bungee cords, log chains, spare tires, duck tape, and other common household items should be used in every workout. Why you ask? Because then you can train anywhere, anytime. No need for facncy equipment. Thereby giving you the mental advantage of prepardness, the cardio advantage of free weight training.
If you win state you should get a quality Carhartt jacket...... Flannel shirts for all other place winners.
Green bananas for all other tournaments.
Also, How about 12 weights?
108
114
122
130
138
147
157
167
180
195
220
300
Matside weigh ins.
You should have to share a meal with your opponent after the dual to promote good sportsmanship, you should learn how to serve others and also learn how to accept the service of others. Home team serves.
At least 1 spam sandwich per day, it tastes good.....side benefit...it is horrible for your weight cut so you have to work extra hard to burn it off, again increasing your cardio.
Self affirmations required daily.
There's a start.......
I've always been in favor of eliminating weight classes. But you know eliminating 2 weight classes would not fix the problem. The teams that are struggling aren't missing 2 weights their missing 4-5 or 6. Most teams can afford 1 or 2 FF. Aarron you win!.
Quote from: mhsfan2 on January 31, 2017, 10:15:46 PM
I've always been in favor of eliminating weight classes. But you know eliminating 2 weight classes would not fix the problem. The teams that are struggling aren't missing 2 weights their missing 4-5 or 6. Most teams can afford 1 or 2 FF. Aarron you win!.
Lol...Im glad to see your still around. But your absolutely right....cutting 2 weight classes doesnt help many who have ff....so where would it stop?
The main thought is to save programs from administrators. Look at the regional assignments below and look at the co-ops and realize that all those schools listed used to have their own teams. I do think to make a huge dent and impact you should go all the way to 10 weight classes but I realize that will never happen. Going to 12 is a bit of a band-aid I think. As far as state and February wrestling it would be easy to take more wrestlers in each weight class to state to off set the loss of weight classes. You said 50% of teams make the playoffs in football. 100% of individuals and teams make the playoffs in wrestling. You are correct that some of the other things that you list might actually happen but will likely be more of the exception than the rule. In the end I just don't feel like the status quo is working and I am not afraid of change or even drastic change. Pretty soon the best wrestlers in the state are not even going to have decent work out partners in their own HS wrestling room and I truly believe that success is achieved by how good of practice partners you have.
https://www.wiaawi.org/Portals/0/PDF/Results/Wrestling/2017/assignments.pdf
If the trend continues then it is going to look more like hockey here with one division
https://www.wiaawi.org/Portals/0/PDF/Results/hockey_boys/2017/bracket.pdf
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 31, 2017, 02:40:09 PM
Handles you are using a spike in 1974 that i think is incorrect based on the much lower numbers on the surrounding years.
As a fellow poster just sent me an IM saying this forum has turned into a small group of grumpy old guys..
Actually I just went backwards by a decade from the last date in that publication (2014), however, I looked at other years in that era and they were all over 16,000 wrestlers going back into the 1960's. 1978 had over 20,000 wrestlers and appears to be the highest. We stayed at/near those numbers interestingly until we went to 13 weights. Coincidence I would say, but another drop appeared when we went to 14 weights. Lots of things to consider, huge changes in youth wrestling during that time?
Trucker might have a good point with his first item of 4th grade. Watching a few of the new 5-8th graders that have joined the club, I'm thrilled at how fast they all seem to be picking it up, quickly catching up to kids who started years earlier. We all know how important the mental aspect of this sport is, maybe wrestling is best learned a bit later?
And yes, this thread was first and foremost to help increase awareness of the issues that multiple forfeits bring. To find a way to quickly "solve" that issue to perhaps prevent losses of programs in a year or two, and how we can increase parity and competitiveness in the sport both at the varsity and JV level. Two of the biggest complaints we seem to have are 1. The number of forfeits 2. The limited number of JV. 3. The number of guys on varsity who don't "belong" there, your definition of that is as good as mine.
Reducing weights can and will immediately address all three. It might not save every program, but it can save some and do it very quickly. It can take a team with 9 guys and put them in a spot where they might be able to win a home dual and energize their fans and youth, get positive press. But giving up 30 points in forfeits as they would be now, almost impossible and the people would walk out saying "If only we weren't giving up so many forfeits, that coach just isn't doing his job of recruiting".
I believe it will allow for at least some of those "not ready" kids to stay on JV for another year, and improve their skills and confidence (mental aspect again) by competing against similar kids. If we have 2 more kids on JV, and each gets two matches in a dual, that's 4 more JV dual matches, that pleases the crowd, and perhaps an A.D. poking his basketball nose into the gym or looking at the roster.
Yes, there might be a few kids here and there that quit. I understand that. I believe by keeping more programs and limiting co-ops, and keeping some kids on JV for another year we will come out net ahead. It might be just a bandaid, but currently, we have nothing else. The numbers have been dropping for years and we are losing programs. 14 weights did not improve numbers, they have gone down, so even from a practical purpose, why continue with what isn't working?
I doubt that we are grumpy old men, they were more entertaining and had better looking women. Reading about an unranked kid beating a ranked kid is fun, speculating about the match score of an upcoming dual is fun. I would say that regardless of our views on this or other subjects, we are concerned about this sport, we want it to fly. No matter how that might happen, feathers do get ruffled.
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 01, 2017, 06:28:42 AM
I believe this thread was started to show that with out the FF teams may be more competitive and it may save there program, so by cutting 106 & 220 which teams would be better?
I have looked at a several conferences and teams that consistently have FF, I have not found a way that cutting two weight classes helps them.
Draw backs to cutting weight classes.
1. It doesn't solve any of the participation issues, so why do it?
Agreed. It doesn't short term. But possibly, if we don't have JV caliber kids wrestling varsity, they'd stick around. Possibly not.
2. It eliminates body types from the sport.
Only if we eliminate the small and the big weight classes.
3. It will force kids to cut more weight causing even more kids to quit.
As a coach for more than 20 years, I'll tell you that the majority of kids do not cut weight. They fall where they fall. Especially JV kids. They don't cut at all.
4. It will force more sports specialization, so in your small towns top tear wrestlers wont go out for other sports.
How does 12 weights do this? It's a stretch at best. You do realize that we are averaging 10 kids per team per tournament. Very few kids are being forced out of the lineup.
5. It would eliminate 96 state qualifiers, dropping it to "under" a 1% chance of making to state. (in football 50% of the teams are in the playoffs)
Can't disagree with the numbers
6. It would eliminate over 500 sectional qualifiers, so less kids wrestling in February.
I don't have the time and patience to do the math, but there are not full weight classes at most weights at most regionals.
7. It will cause more kids to open enroll so the benches wont get deeper as some suggested.
It also might kids to STOP open enrolling, so they can have a varsity spot.
8. It will be easier to recruit a couple kids in to create a power house dominant team.
This already happens. with 14 weights.
9. We will no longer have top tear tournaments with out of state teams or travel out of state for tournaments.
It would effect the Cheeshead. Any others? I know that OTW and Midstates have out of state teams, but none of the teams there were powerhouses. When Illinois had 215 and we didn't, somehow we adapted to it when we wrestled down there.
10. I would predict seeing boarder towns losing kids to other states (just the good kids)
But we don't know. It's an opinion.
In a situation where there are as many con's (if not more) as there are pro's to a big change don't you take it of the of the idea board?
The NWCA just voted on it. It's a real issue. I'd put my own opinions here about the pros, but I gotta do some work. Truth is that we can argue what our opinions are on the matter. The facts are facts. We don't have, on a large scale basis, teams that can fill 14 weights. That we know for sure.
Fact- 8-man football has saved numerous football programs and will continue to. Without it they would all be co-ops.
I still believe there's too big of a reward to the team forfeited against. What if the forfeit was 3 team pts... or 2 pts. Wouldn't make it so hopeless for teams that can't fill the entire roster
Quote from: Oldtimer on February 01, 2017, 09:48:02 AM
I still believe there's too big of a reward to the team forfeited against. What if the forfeit was 3 team pts... or 2 pts. Wouldn't make it so hopeless for teams that can't fill the entire roster
Or make that we dont wrestle matches because they are afraid to give up 6?
Correct, a forfeit must be 6 points.
Quote from: MNbadger on February 01, 2017, 10:52:49 AM
Correct, a forfeit must be 6 points.
Making it less would create fewer matches because teams would forfeit rather than get pinned. Truth is that in wrestling fans come to see matches and care very little about the team score since it is seldom that close. Making a forfeit less might make the dual closer but a lot fewer matches would be wrestled. The opposite is true that if you wanted to force coaches to put guys out there to wrestle then you would make a forfeit something like 8 points where there is an actual benefit to going out and getting pinned. I don't think that would be a good thing for the sport if we were just throwing kids out there as sacrificial lambs.
Quote from: aarons23 on February 01, 2017, 09:49:32 AM
Quote from: Oldtimer on February 01, 2017, 09:48:02 AM
I still believe there's too big of a reward to the team forfeited against. What if the forfeit was 3 team pts... or 2 pts. Wouldn't make it so hopeless for teams that can't fill the entire roster
Or make that we dont wrestle matches because they are afraid to give up 6?
In our dual last week, we would have won the dual 31-30 on criteria h instead of 36-30 if we had forfeited two matches that we knew were going to get pinned and given up first match points. A forfeit has to be 6 points. Maybe should be worth more, then we would be defineitly recruiting in the hall ways
gablesgrip, WE (coaches collectively) ARE recruiting in the hallways, and alleyways, and all other ways. Please understand that. Also understand that recruiting new kids and sticking them in to fill in a weight class ISN'T what we should be doing. Unfortunately all to often it is what coaches feel they must do to prevent a forfeit, be that to maybe win a dual, or to make the varsity roster appear more full than it really is.
Quote from: Handles II on February 01, 2017, 11:26:01 AM
gablesgrip, WE (coaches collectively) ARE recruiting in the hallways, and alleyways, and all other ways. Please understand that. Also understand that recruiting new kids and sticking them in to fill in a weight class ISN'T what we should be doing. Unfortunately all to often it is what coaches feel they must do to prevent a forfeit, be that to maybe win a dual, or to make the varsity roster appear more full than it really is.
It is almost like we need to have a certification to wrestle varsity. We have guys that should not be on varsity and have gone to JV tournaments and don't win those. Sometimes they wrestle varsity in a dual and sometimes they don't and they forfeit. They definitely weigh in to accept a forfeit in case the other team does not have a wrestler. That is the crazy system we have now. We can fill the weight classes just for the sake of filling them and having one guy that weighs the right amount
I do get tired of hearing people telling others to get out and recruit. Trust me, we DO. While I do not agree with retraction, imagining that coaches are not working their tails off is insulting. I spent years working hard and smart, duplicating the activities of successful programs. We had periods of being horrible and periods of being very successful. The success has been non-existent for a long time however. We cannot get our youth program to grow. We struggle in the middle schools. I get 20 plus out, they do not stay with it. We make it fun but they do not continue. It is a fine line, making it "fun" and giving them enough to compete. The communities around us will have 100 plus in their youth programs and 60 in their middle school programs and they stay with it. We simply can't compete with our clientele. There is a lack of participation in many of our sports. We have several enthusiastic, capable youth coaches and can barely average 20 youth wrestlers each year. Some years ago we had someone (4 time DI AA, NC, international experience) coaching our youth who literally would be hired by any nation to coach their national team. We never had more than a dozen kids involved.
Sometimes it is not doable, period.
Quote from: Handles II on February 01, 2017, 11:26:01 AM
gablesgrip, WE (coaches collectively) ARE recruiting in the hallways, and alleyways, and all other ways. Please understand that. Also understand that recruiting new kids and sticking them in to fill in a weight class ISN'T what we should be doing. Unfortunately all to often it is what coaches feel they must do to prevent a forfeit, be that to maybe win a dual, or to make the varsity roster appear more full than it really is.
Handles, I am a coach and am not a teacher. recently I went to the school and did 4 days of middle school wrestling in the phy ed classes.
Quote from: gablesgrip1 on February 01, 2017, 12:54:37 PM
Handles, I am a coach and am not a teacher. recently I went to the school and did 4 days of middle school wrestling in the phy ed classes.
Awesome! Thanks for doing that!
I know there has been a lot of discussion on this thread on things to change and what is wrong. For a minute I would just like to highlight a view observations of things that are RIGHT with the sport in Wisconsin:
- Just found out there is an elementary school program in Northeast Wisconsin (not one of the big name schools) that has 80 kids out in their k-5 program! Wow - that is impressive.
- Attended the Mill City Melee tournament this weekend (which by the way was a great event for everyone) and every team brought at least 14 wrestlers in 6-8 grade. Winneconne had the most with 28, Freedom was next with 25 - not the largest schools in the area but still bringing a very large middle school team to the tournament.
- WWF making great changes for the Schoolboy level this year for FS/GR - working to get more wrestlers involved in their camps and some competitions - yet another great advancement for the sport.
- At a recent dual meet between Freedom and Wrightstown, Freedom put together a festival of wrestling for all ages groups - which ended with a great dual between to the two varsity teams that sounded like it was an awesome environment for Wisconsin High school wrestling (work kept me from being there).
- Askren recently put on an outstanding event in Madison that included duals for both club and school teams, as well as an individual tournament for all levels of wrestlers - it was great to see an event that was not tailored to only the elite wrestler, but wrestlers of all skill levels!
Those are just 5 examples of things that I think are right with Wisconsin wrestling today. I will admit it is easy to dissect everything that is wrong - but remember wrestling is not the only sport that is struggling with numbers. Let's look to the positives and find the things that are working right. There are a lot of people that are working tirelessly to improve the sport in our state - let's give them the credit they deserve and learn from them - there is a lot we can all take away!
I don't know if this was mentioned but our school can never field a full team. Because of the way our wrestlers are positioned a cut in weight classes would eliminate one of our wrestlers, not get us closer to a full team.
Kyle
Quote from: Kyle on February 01, 2017, 10:23:29 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned but our school can never field a full team. Because of the way our wrestlers are positioned a cut in weight classes would eliminate one of our wrestlers, not get us closer to a full team.
Kyle
I believe this was mentioned Kyle, this happens on teams currently, and would with 18 weights in some cases. One kid might not be the varsity guy, this has been the way of life in sports forever. We also know that kids come in different sizes, so some years things might fit perfect, some years you might have a stack of kids at 145. It happens. This is why JV and Var Reserve type teams and events are so important. Not everyone can be the varsity guy, no opportunities are lost for those who aren't.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 01, 2017, 10:54:34 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 01, 2017, 10:52:49 AM
Correct, a forfeit must be 6 points.
Making it less would create fewer matches because teams would forfeit rather than get pinned. Truth is that in wrestling fans come to see matches and care very little about the team score since it is seldom that close. Making a forfeit less might make the dual closer but a lot fewer matches would be wrestled. The opposite is true that if you wanted to force coaches to put guys out there to wrestle then you would make a forfeit something like 8 points where there is an actual benefit to going out and getting pinned. I don't think that would be a good thing for the sport if we were just throwing kids out there as sacrificial lambs.
This argument doesn't make any sense to me. Coaches aren't looking for opportunities to forfeit. The forfeit because they don't have someone at that weight. We are overly punishing the teams that don't have the numbers and overly rewarding those that do. People do care about team score. That's what makes duals fun. The excessive points for forfeits take away the opportunity for close duals. Really, does nobody in football care about the team score? C'mon.
I agree with getyourpoints. The kids who cut weight to wrestle will always be in the wrestling room. It's the others (including football players) who make up the numbers. I know a lot of the kids who play football and wrestle, Love football and wrestle because they are good at it. They have little interest in cutting weight for the sport of wrestling when they want to get as big and strong as they can for their #1 sport, football.
Quote from: Oldtimer on February 02, 2017, 09:40:34 AM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 01, 2017, 10:54:34 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 01, 2017, 10:52:49 AM
Correct, a forfeit must be 6 points.
Making it less would create fewer matches because teams would forfeit rather than get pinned. Truth is that in wrestling fans come to see matches and care very little about the team score since it is seldom that close. Making a forfeit less might make the dual closer but a lot fewer matches would be wrestled. The opposite is true that if you wanted to force coaches to put guys out there to wrestle then you would make a forfeit something like 8 points where there is an actual benefit to going out and getting pinned. I don't think that would be a good thing for the sport if we were just throwing kids out there as sacrificial lambs.
This argument doesn't make any sense to me. Coaches aren't looking for opportunities to forfeit. The forfeit because they don't have someone at that weight. We are overly punishing the teams that don't have the numbers and overly rewarding those that do. People do care about team score. That's what makes duals fun. The excessive points for forfeits take away the opportunity for close duals. Really, does nobody in football care about the team score? C'mon.
In big duals, I absolutely guarantee coaches would forfeit to a good kid and take a 3 or 4 point loss than send a kid out and get TF of Pinned for a 5 or 6 point loss. My son has had coaches against him not send kids to the table that are in headgear and warmed up. If they won't send out for 6 point loss, I assure you they really won't if it's less points to Forfeit.
If you made forfeits less, the duals that now have 10-14 matches would probably lose 1-2 due to scoring points for team score.
From the Guillotine:
New Jersey, one of the top states in the nation, legendary programs, a population of 9 million people in less than 9,000 square miles MN has 5.5 in 86,000 square miles. These are their numbers for their state qualifying tournament, ie our Sections.
297 teams broken down into 32 districts with 8-11 teams per district (one district had 7 teams) and a single-class State Tournament. Yes, doing this one sucked. But it's all for the love of the sport, right?
14 weights - 94 teams
13 weights - 56 teams
12 weights - 60 teams
11 weights - 24 teams
10 weights - 15 teams
9 weights - 20 teams
8 weights - 8 teams
7 weights - 6 teams
6 weights - 3 teams
5 weights - 1 teams
4 weights - 4 teams
3 weights - 1 team
2 weights - 2 teams
1 weight - 1 team
Teams that filled 13 or 14 weights - 150 (50.5%)
Teams that filled 12 or fewer weights 147 (49.5%)
If we want to say that teams down to (including) 10 weights filled are healthy, competitive and viable, no chance of getting cut, then about 83% of NJ schools meet that description. Quite honestly, that isn't very good in a tiny state with 9 million people and an outstanding wrestling tradition. I would think if we were at 83% it would be pretty solid, there, shoot they should be at over 90%. Right?
Can you guys get the "decision makers" to agree or take action on ANYTHING posted here?
Quote from: Ghetto on February 02, 2017, 10:52:34 AM
From the Guillotine:
New Jersey, one of the top states in the nation, legendary programs, a population of 9 million people in less than 9,000 square miles MN has 5.5 in 86,000 square miles. These are their numbers for their state qualifying tournament, ie our Sections.
297 teams broken down into 32 districts with 8-11 teams per district (one district had 7 teams) and a single-class State Tournament. Yes, doing this one sucked. But it's all for the love of the sport, right?
14 weights - 94 teams
13 weights - 56 teams
12 weights - 60 teams
11 weights - 24 teams
10 weights - 15 teams
9 weights - 20 teams
8 weights - 8 teams
7 weights - 6 teams
6 weights - 3 teams
5 weights - 1 teams
4 weights - 4 teams
3 weights - 1 team
2 weights - 2 teams
1 weight - 1 team
Teams that filled 13 or 14 weights - 150 (50.5%)
Teams that filled 12 or fewer weights 147 (49.5%)
If we want to say that teams down to (including) 10 weights filled are healthy, competitive and viable, no chance of getting cut, then about 83% of NJ schools meet that description. Quite honestly, that isn't very good in a tiny state with 9 million people and an outstanding wrestling tradition. I would think if we were at 83% it would be pretty solid, there, shoot they should be at over 90%. Right?
I have spent a great deal of time on the east coast this year for wrestling, have many friends and family out there. We talked alot about building the sport.....not ever have I had one coach/ person say we have too many weight classes. We need to stop thinking cutting weight classes is making the sport better...its not. Its ok if every team doesnt fill every weight....its ok if every schools focus or main sport isnt wrestling. I would hope its the goal of every team and coach to make their team succesful and competitive....but not by cutting weight classes so you have less weights to fill.
Growing the sport is not accomplished through eliminating weight classes. There are a number of things that have been mentioned on why kids are not going out or remaining in the sport and other "big" sports in general. As far as the forfeit issue goes, why not co-op? Yep plenty of co-ops out there that are not filling all 14. Got it. Seems like there are a lot of smaller schools in Iowa doing this. I have no data that suggests this is successful there, but if the idea is to fill the weight classes than it is time to get over the pride thing and take some action. If you went from filling 7 weight classes with your own school to 11 through a co-op it would seem like that is progress and a step in the right direction??? So what if it moves you from D3 to D2.
Quote from: ganderson on February 02, 2017, 12:01:29 PM
If you went from filling 7 weight classes with your own school to 11 through a co-op it would seem like that is progress and a step in the right direction??? So what if it moves you from D3 to D2.
Or are you going from 28 weight classes to 14? Co-ops can work if the geography works but again it is tough in rural areas the get an average or beginner wrestler to travel 15 miles to practice each night.
I do agree that if we do not reduce weight classes, then fewer teams is the future of the sport. That only further hurts rural wrestling in my mind
I guess that's my main issue with co-ops. Yes, you ARE losing opportunities. Reducing weight classes only reduces the number of varsity spots, not the opportunity to wrestle for your school. Combining 3,4,5 schools that had teams not only reduces opportunities, it erases, in many cases, the history of the program and can create huge logistical expenses that often will prevent a kid from wrestling. He might have if it was in his own high school, but to travel 20 miles to another school ever night, naw, not worth it.
Aarons, when states like NJ can only fill 14 weights 50% of the time, there IS an issue. You might not like it, you might not admit it, but dude, it's there. Several people have listed reasons why dropping a couple weight classes CAN be beneficial for the sport, first and foremost to potentially save some struggling programs, but there are plenty of other positives as well.
If we only had 50% of teams that could fill a football team, I'm quite positive that coaches and fans would be (logically) saying, "Rather than have these programs cut, why not lower the number of varsity positions?". So why on earth is it so wrong for us to talk the same way? After all, football has already done this very thing to save itself and to keep growing.
Warning continued viewing of this thread after 17 Pages may cause irrevocable harm to you and others.....
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 02, 2017, 12:53:18 PM
Ghetto,
210 out of 297 teams had 12 or more wrestlers not bad at all, so 71% of the teams were full or close to it. At the end of the season with injury's and skin funk, grades and sickness to fill almost 71% of the teams grades out at a B+ IMO.
Last year we made it to level 3 in the football playoffs and we had about 25% of our starters out or banged up by the end of the season.
So did you play a football game with less than 11 players? That is the equivalent.
All this really means one thing. The sport is evolving into an individual sport and the team sport of it is being lost. If that is the case then we might as well just make everyone "varsity" and match up kids and have every match wrestled count on team scoring and don't count the non-matches? We culd get rid of weight classes at duals and just have them for tournaments. I don't like but feel like that is where the sport is moving. I think it is apparent that more than 75+% of teams in the state can really care about the team duals because they cannot fill the weight classes. To me this is the equivalent of playing basketball with 4 guys or football will 9 guys and still trying to compete
A three or four team co op is an increasing of 14 opportunities, because none of them can proble stand on their own which would equal 0 opportunities.
Quote from: Jimmy on February 02, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
A three or four team co op is an increasing of 14 opportunities, because none of them can proble stand on their own which would equal 0 opportunities.
Or a loss of 28 or 42 opportunities depending on your viewpoint.
Chuck
The more I think about it you just make things real simple
1) Weight class- Every weigh in it is exactly what it says it is. Your wrestle 132 then you better weigh less than 132 at weigh-ins. No changes ever. makes it easy
2) Scheduling- Get rid of the 7/7 rule and just create a individual match limit. Teams can do whatever they want to do with their schedules but no wrestler can have more than 30 matches before regionals? Again makes it easy.
3) I think we also need to create a way that individual wrestlers can enter tournaments on their own with permission of tourney director. Tournaments can charge by the wrestler to get some extra wrestlers in tournaments to fill weight classes. Kind like an un-attached wrestler in college where the school does not have to pay for a coach or transportation. If a coach is not present, then nobody is allowed in the corner. This would be a great way to create gold and silver divisions in the tournaments rather than ever having the top seeds wrestle the bottom seeds.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 02, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
The more I think about it you just make things real simple
1) Weight class- Every weigh in it is exactly what it says it is. Your wrestle 132 then you better weigh less than 132 at weigh-ins. No changes ever. makes it easy
2) Scheduling- Get rid of the 7/7 rule and just create a individual match limit. Teams can do whatever they want to do with their schedules but no wrestler can have more than 30 matches before regionals? Again makes it easy.
3) I think we also need to create a way that individual wrestlers can enter tournaments on their own with permission of tourney director. Tournaments can charge by the wrestler to get some extra wrestlers in tournaments to fill weight classes. Kind like an un-attached wrestler in college where the school does not have to pay for a coach or transportation. If a coach is not present, then nobody is allowed in the corner. This would be a great way to create gold and silver divisions in the tournaments rather than ever having the top seeds wrestle the bottom seeds.
These are all good ideas...can improve wrestling without cutting weight classes.
Chuck, if you read the post it is saying that all teams would be dropping the sport. Therefore 14 is greater than 0.
Quote from: ramjet on February 02, 2017, 11:14:08 AM
Can you guys get the "decision makers" to agree or take action on ANYTHING posted here?
Apparently, 'yes' is the answer to that.
In correspondence with the NFHS, two representatives have replied directly to me and included other members of their wrestling advisory board. They have some very serious concerns about the 14 weight classes, and one mentioned that taking a middle-weight and putting another at the top was not the answer that they hoped for. They too are tracking weight classes diligently as well as the numbers of wrestlers in each state.
They want members to be sure to vote (Littleguy301, you were wondering if you should return your ballot? yes is their answer). It has been under discussion for the past two years and based on the data they have been looking at, the issue will be pressed quite hard this year. They both reminded me that this is a process, but it is gaining traction as they too see the forfeits as a negative for the sport. A point was made that with several emerging states in the sport, the ability to add new schools, and thus more wrestling, a more manageable number of weight classes may be beneficial.
Apparently I'm not the only crazy person in the world? Dang, that's going to be a shocker for some of you who think I am. :-*
I'm glad, at the very least that this information and data is being looked at and analyzed by the "decision makers" they are very concerned about the future of our sport nationwide, big schools or small. We can't ask for more than that.
It would be hard convince me that wrestling was dying after seeing the tremendous support and the crowd at the UWEC match last night. Wall to wall spectators from every level. Youth wrestling at intermission cooperation by local,youth clubs, UWEC and allot of support coupled with some great wrestling made for a great event.
Like I said it takes the guy looking in the mirror to make changes and get kids wrestling then collectively if you have enough folks looking in the mirror and agreeing to work towards a common goal you achieve the defined mission.
I used the above example at UWEC because it was a collaboration that made that such an exciting event and fun for everyone there. Collaboration between two up and coming programs Platteville and UWEC, Weigh In a Club and EC Youth Wresting and a few other coaches and clubs.
Sounds like a great event Ramjet. But individual perception is a tricky thing. Would you feel the same if you attended the Wabeno/Laona vs Elcho dual last night. 34-30, close dual, pretty exciting! :) 13 forfeits?? Oh wait, maybe not. :-\ (Not to pick on any teams, there are dozens like this to choose from).
My guess is that some people who attended that event have different perceptions this morning than you do about the health of the sport. Some people attend events like that all season and would in turn, feel differently than a fan who attends events with mostly full squads on each team.
That's where data is important. It can show reality vs perception.
Year #Schools #Wrestlers
1974 378 20,084 12 weights
1984 361 11,250 12 weights
1994 365 7,370 13 weights
2004 348 7,288 14 weights
2014 334 7,147 14 weights
So your perception is, based on an event you attended, that everything is going great in the sport and our numbers from K-thru-college is fantastic. And someone else see's things a different way. Using data can help both sides see things that they were unaware of, or unwilling to see/believe.
Honestly Rick you are a negative nelly you don't like something then do something concrete about IT! sitting on here and complaining does ZERO to promote the sport ZERO.......
Small rural programs need to do more to promote period end of story they do face different challenges but cutting weights does not address any of those challenges.
Actually I'm doing something about it. I'm posting data so that people can see what is really going on, and perhaps pay more attention. I call it "reality". Until Ghetto started posting numbers a couple years ago, people didn't know, but simply guessed. Guessing is a crapshoot. His numbers were dismissed by many, but some paid attention. I decided to ramp it up, show more numbers, weekly numbers. But some people dismiss them as well. Of course there are people that believe that the earth is flat, and that polio vaccines didn't help reduce the amount of polio in the world. Meh, there will always be those types around.
I suppose the NFHS reps that contacted me are also negative nellys? Or, maybe not. Maybe they are realists that are concerned about the future of the sport and know that pretending problems don't exist creates a fast-track to failure.
But since you pointed fingers at small rural programs ( yet we have large rural, and large urban, and small urban schools with the same numbers issues)...Shouldn't you be doing something Ramjet? I believe one of those teams in my last post is yours. How is that even possible with you, Mr. Fixit, making sure everything is perfect? The team should be overflowing with wrestlers at every level Ramjet. Why isn't it?
No need to to get personal Rick posting does not do crap you need grass root efforts to change something ....... so keep,posting keep up the Internet whistle blowing and crapola it has and will not change anything. Grassroots efforts......
Quote from: ElectricGuy on February 02, 2017, 01:11:10 PM
Warning continued viewing of this thread after 17 Pages may cause irrevocable harm to you and others.....
will this make page 18?
Quote from: ramjet on February 03, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
No need to to get personal Rick posting does not do crap you need grass root efforts to change something ....... so keep,posting keep up the Internet whistle blowing and crapola it has and will not change anything. Grassroots efforts......
Believe it or not but there is a huge grassroots effort going on in multiple states and it is being led by coaches. This is why the Wisconsin coaches association surveyed its members. That information will be shared with the WIAA and NFHS. There is a push to get Wisconsin back it's voter rights in the NFHS so they will have a vote on issues like this.
I expect nothing substantial is going to happen at the state level that is different than what the NFHS does but seeing what is going on in multiple states with "grassroot efforts" I will be considerably surprised if the NFHS does not make a change in the next couple years.
Quote from: ramjet on February 03, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
No need to to get personal Rick posting does not do crap you need grass root efforts to change something ....... so keep,posting keep up the Internet whistle blowing and crapola it has and will not change anything. Grassroots efforts......
Well ramjet, I've said over and over that people are doing what they can, and virtually everything they can to help promote the sport. Are some things being done incorrectly? Yes, but once again that is 100% based on perspective. What works for town A, or Coach A doesn't work in town B or Coach B. What works for wrestler A doesn't work for wrestler B.
I'm a firm believer that our coaches are doing as much as they are able to help the sport and help kids. I encourage us to continue trying and experimenting with new ideas. But you, and a couple others, continue to say or insinuate, that this isn't happening, or at least "other" people aren't doing it as well as yourselves. If you know all the secrets and hold the key to building a program, "grassroots" as you say, then by all means, share your expertise and show how well it is working in your program and how well it will work in other's programs. Give us your formula, and all the numbers and data of your programs growth. How will anyone else learn unless you teach us?
Oh, and one other thing, I know you think you are being snarky by using my first name on here rather than my screen name. You aren't. It wouldn't be an issue for any of the many members who have introduced themselves, but since you've apparently been within "touching distance" of me at events as you have told me in PM's you've sent me (which is super creepy of you :-X), but have been afraid to introduce yourself and prefer to creep in the shadows, says quite a bit about the person behind your screen name. Once you can look me in they eye, shake my hand, and we are actually on a first-name-basis, then fine, otherwise you haven't quite earned the right, have you??
I have said repeatedly that I am against retraction but I must say Ramjet, YOU are the one who "gets personal" with Handles and anyone else you feel you can condescend to. The "man in the mirror" quote you repeat and others get very old. You strike me as the classic person at work who thinks they work harder than everyone else (and is always
talking about how much they do). Many of us have been grinding it out for many years and I don't doubt Handles has been as well. If you ever want to, we can talk and I can tell you all I have done for the last 40 years. Sometimes it has been successful and sometimes not. I'd love to see you come and work your "magic" where I am. I am not looking for an argument just pointing out you are wrong about all those lazy coaches.
Quote from: ramjet on February 03, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
No need to to get personal Rick posting does not do crap you need grass root efforts to change something ....... so keep,posting keep up the Internet whistle blowing and crapola it has and will not change anything. Grassroots efforts......
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 03, 2017, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: ElectricGuy on February 02, 2017, 01:11:10 PM
Warning continued viewing of this thread after 17 Pages may cause irrevocable harm to you and others.....
will this make page 18?
Just did.... and nobody blinked.....
There will be Mental Health Councilors available at Kohl Center Gates A, B, C on Feb 23rd, 24th, and 25th for all participants of this thread. Just bring proof of your moniker and all cost will be covered by wiwrestling.com - this has been a wiwrestling public service announcement.
Quote from: MNbadger on February 03, 2017, 01:53:29 PM
I have said repeatedly that I am against retraction but I must say Ramjet, YOU are the one who "gets personal" with Handles and anyone else you feel you can condescend to. The "man in the mirror" quote you repeat and others get very old. You strike me as the classic person at work who thinks they work harder than everyone else (and is always talking about how much they do). Many of us have been grinding it out for many years and I don't doubt Handles has been as well. If you ever want to, we can talk and I can tell you all I have done for the last 40 years. Sometimes it has been successful and sometimes not. I'd love to see you come and work your "magic" where I am. I am not looking for an argument just pointing out you are wrong about all those lazy coaches. Quote from: ramjet on February 03, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
No need to to get personal Rick posting does not do crap you need grass root efforts to change something ....... so keep,posting keep up the Internet whistle blowing and crapola it has and will not change anything. Grassroots efforts......
So dramatic............ yes looking in mirror is about as personal as one can get with him or herself........ ;D
By the way I never once said anything about "lazy coaches" NEVER USED or posted those words so you must be reading into something that is not here. So dramatic MNbadger :D ;D
You may not have used those words and I never said you used those specific words. Your many posts on the subject makes my paraphrasing accurate though to be sure.
Quote from: MNbadger on February 04, 2017, 11:23:31 PM
You may not have used those words and I never said you used those specific words. Your many posts on the subject makes my paraphrasing accurate though to be sure.
Only in your mind do
you look in the mirror when you type this stuff? ;D
Quote from: ElectricGuy on February 03, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 03, 2017, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: ElectricGuy on February 02, 2017, 01:11:10 PM
Warning continued viewing of this thread after 17 Pages may cause irrevocable harm to you and others.....
will this make page 18?
Just did.... and nobody blinked.....
There will be Mental Health Councilors available at Kohl Center Gates A, B, C on Feb 23rd, 24th, and 25th for all participants of this thread. Just bring proof of your moniker and all cost will be covered by wiwrestling.com - this has been a wiwrestling public service announcement.
mental health classes lead by maggie?
Those would likely be better at a local establishment.
Quote from: Ghetto on February 05, 2017, 09:03:56 PM
Those would likely be better at a local establishment.
Maybe over some fishbowls?
Absolutely I do as do the other coaches you speak of.
Quote from: ramjet on February 05, 2017, 10:38:47 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on February 04, 2017, 11:23:31 PM
You may not have used those words and I never said you used those specific words. Your many posts on the subject makes my paraphrasing accurate though to be sure.
Only in your mind do you look in the mirror when you type this stuff? ;D
Top o' the mornin'!
Big weekend, more teams participating state-wide than any thus far. 279 teams wrestled this weekend. Conference tournaments on Friday and Saturday had some excitement going on. That's fun.
This post is just the team numbers, I'll hopefully have the breakdown by weight classes completed later but, in all honesty, looking at them it's not going to change much. A few shifts in weight classes, perhaps to best help an individual get that elusive Conf Championship, or to test the waters for Regionals.
Looking at our team numbers (279), I added up all the teams that had 10 or more varsity wrestlers this weekend.
The breakdown is this:
14 weights filled - 41 teams
13 weights filled - 23 teams
12 weights filled - 20 teams
11 weights filled - 20 teams
10 weights filled - 16 teams
Total - 120 teams were able to fill 10 varsity weight classes. That equates to 43% of our teams. Houston, we have a problem.
While I don't say that 12 weight classes will fix this problem, obviously 12 weight classes would have the same teams filling them as this weekend, what it can do is improve the competition, which can breathe life into an otherwise struggling program.
Through these weeks I have yet to see a team with fewer than 10 wrestlers place top 4 at a quality tournament (say 12 or more teams). I haven't seen a team with fewer than 10 wrestlers winning any duals with consistency unless it's against other teams with similar numbers of forfeits. If we drop weights, teams without hope will be able to compete. Maybe they can bring back a trophy and set it on the A.D.'s desk. Get some fans talking about the great 3rd place finish when at the cafe or the grocery store, or in study hall. Give the local paper a headline. Everyone on here seems to agree that success breeds success. Currently over 1/2 of our teams simply can't be successful, fewer weights gives them a shot, gives them hope, and might turn away a possible cut and/or co-op.
I will be honest those numbers amaze me when only 120 out of 279 teams can put out a team of more than 10 wrestlers for conference tourneys. I think there are only like 335 total teams?
That means even if you dropped to 10 weight classes we would still have many forfeits.
My only comment here is that if this continues the sport will just continue into being an individual sport especially at the D2 and D3 levels unless we somehow can see co-ops as the answer.
We'll see how Regionals turn out, but yeah, I was quite surprised at the numbers (and double checked them). There were quite a few conference tournaments where 3 or fewer guys made up the weight class, and I'm not just talking 113 and 220. Seeing 3 kids in a 152lb bracket in a 10 team conference kinda blew my mind!
Percentage wise, the Badger Conference did the best with 10 of 13 teams having 11-14 wrestlers (76%).
still waiting for a weight class for me ;D
I would support the idea of the XXXXL class, or simpley put the 4X class ;D
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 07, 2017, 07:44:27 AM
First off we are blessed to have qualified coaches in our area, most are teachers with collage wrestling backgrounds and great asst coaches.
Can we see the pictures in your collage pf qualified coaches?? ;D
Reducing the number of weight classes will do absolutely nothing to grow the sport of wrestling.. It won't make dual meets longer that people say are too short because of forfeits.. The numbers say that we have some weight classes with only a few participants.. Saying that is very different than saying that fewer weight classes will have a positive impact on the sport of wrestling.. In some cases what you are to have are teams that can fill 7 weight classes now, that can only fill 5 or 6 because of where the new weight classes are and what kids fat test for or want to cut too.. You are also going to have kids squeezed out if your reduction of weight classes includes spreading the weight classes out. It's definitely not a simple matter of saying a team with 7 wrestlers filling 7 weight classes will fill 7 with new weight classes no matter how you reduce, or even change weight classes.
What's for sure?? Without a doubt, reducing weight classes will reduce the number of wrestlers.. That's inarguable.. you are going to take away opportunities from kids at schools who can currently fill 14 weights, and you are going to take it away from the wrestlers I mentioned before that are squeezed out. Is that a good thing for wrestling?? Rather than reduce the number of weights, why not move them a little to more align with the number of wrestlers at weights??
106,113,120,126,132,138,145,152,160,170,182,195,220,285
becomes something like
106,118,126,130,134,138,142,146,152,160,172,189,215,285
you gain 2 weight classes between 126 and 160 were obviously the numbers are better, taking 1 away from either end where the numbers are less..
I'd like to be with you Charger. I understand there are teams out there that easily could fill two (or more) squads. If there was a reduction in weight classes, to be sure those coaches would need to find ways to keep a couple more kids happy with being in the back-up role. Not easy. On the other hand, if many other teams had a couple more kids on JV, then we would expect duals and JV tournaments could be more exciting and worthwhile, so there is a silver lining.
If we look back to the days of yore, say around 1984, we saw that statewide teams would average close to 45 kids per team (obviously some lower and some higher) and there were 12 weights. 45 kids per team is what a few of the very top teams have now. Tweleve weights worked then, why couldn't it work today? Most certainly making some teams more competitive, having fewer forfeits in duals, and perhaps saving some teams from the chopping block isn't bad for the sport, is it? Wrestling on JV isn't losing the opportunity to wrestle. Losing programs is losing the opportunity to wrestle.
Looking at this weekend's Conference numbers, we simply can see that very few teams (15%) are at that 14 weight threshold. Of those it is even a much smaller number, probably 5% (?) that is dealing with 45+ members on the team. So 5% are working with the numbers of wrestlers that 50% were a couple decades ago. Working with too many kids is a great problem to have.
At per-weight, again last weekend, our most populous weight classes of the year, on average, were 145 and 152. This weekend 145 brackets were filled at 64%. 152 at 61% We have room in the middle weights.
I'd rather see a few teams struggle to keep the kids they have out because there are so many, than to lose entire entire teams. Most conferences had zero, one, or two teams that filled 14 weights. The Badger, Fox Valley, and Little 10 were tied at the most with 4 teams that filled 14 weights.
Nothing would ever stop a team from having 2 varsity squads competing. That would be a great thing. Stoughton is doing it this year with sending their "JV" team to varsity tournaments. Many of the top programs have done this in the past which is why they stay on the top.
Technically nobody ever has to wrestle JV in a tournament. You can send your JV's to a varsity tourney any time you want. Duals would be another story but then great teams could split the matches if they had two studs at same weight and keep them fresh. No opportunities to wrestle are lost.
I think it would be great with 10 weight classes and having near full varsity, varsity reserve, and JV squads. Plenty of options if guys are hurt, ineligible, etc. I know this will never happen.
Basketball is successful and starts with a lot more popularity and more youth players and then by the time they get to varsity it is 6 maybe 7 kids that play. Wrestling does not need 14 varsity starters
I like the idea of shifting the weights around to maybe fit more needs with some of the teams.
I know of at least 2 teams that dont fill out lineups but have JV kids that are very good sitting right in the area of adding weights or reshuffling. That would actually make those teams maybe fill out the line ups a tad.
I recommend looking both ways before crossing the street.
10 million for MI vs about 6 million for WI and MN? That might help the numbers?
But rather than just some word of mouth Getyourpoints, why not post the data?
I did a very quick trackwrestling search of various duals and tournaments in MI, clicked on random events and easily found lots of forfeits, empty weight classes, and teams that weren't able to fill 14 weights. Just look up Kenowa Hills Invite. 14 teams, five had 14 or more (using JV to help fill brackets) 9 couldn't. These were mostly big suburban schools around the Grand Rapids area. Or alphabetically below it, the Lakeland Invite, 14 teams, again using JV to help fill brackets, 6 teams had 14 varsity guys.
I guess that's why in my subject heading I wrote "The Data". This "numbers and forfeits" talk has been going on and on for years. Nobody liked to see Ghetto's numbers, and probably even more dislike mine. Sorry boys, but those are the numbers. By team or per weight class we can't fill 14.
Feel free to post MI's numbers on this thread. It appears their Regionals or similar start this weekend so you will have lots of tournaments to add up. It's ton's of fun!! ;) Then you will have something concrete to discuss, otherwise it's just conjecture. Right?
You can look up state numbers on NFHS website to see changes or trends. Enjoy! ;D
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 08, 2017, 01:48:20 PM
I believe MI has a Dist. that qualifies you to move on to regionals which seems to be the equivalent to our sectionals.
After going through 7 of last year's Dist. 50% were at 12-14
12-14 roster numbers is a huge range. 14 is full, 12 is giving up 12 points at a dual. i think we are most interested in % of teams able to fill all 14, % of teams able to fill 13, % of teams that fill 12, etc.
As a kid I was one of those late comer's to wrestling and joined because there was a spot at 98# for me as an 90# freshman. Learned to love the sport, and am proud to have 2 kids that will probably be those 85#-90# freshman. I guarantee you if I had been told "go out for wrestling, but you probably won't make the lowest weight until Sophmore or Junior year" I never would have given the sport a thought. Right now, our HS 106# Sophmore did the exact same, so it happens. Due to my experiences, I have been an advocate for this great sport for 20+ years, and besides my 2 boys, have pushed countless more kids into the sport...don't cut out any opportunities, especially for the little guys.
Oh, and those "JV but wrestling varsity" kids you rail on here often turn from 90#'ers with sub .500 records to 120# beasts (that fills weights) in a couple years..check back with me and my boys in a 3-5 years!!
Also-was curious on the local HS conference meet #'s (8 teams)
3 of 8 teams with 13 or 14 weights. 2 of 3 have/had great youth teams. Lots of HS'ers with "elite" club experience.
1 of 8 teams with 12 weights (historically very good team with full teams, just a young year, little dip). Strong, long term youth club and MS team.
2 of 8 teams with 10 weights (team rosters per track of 28 and 29 kids, ability to fill 12 weights). Know 1 team had some illness/skin issues a week earlier, probably a carryover). Neither with MS team, one with no youth club, one with fair youth club #'s.
1 of 8 teams with 4 weights. (16 on Roster,9 weights). No nothing of this team, or club/MS/youth.
1 of 8 with 6 weights (28 kids, 12 weights). Believe the B-ball team is historically state tourney caliber. No youth team that I know of (MS or club in area).
I have no idea what these #'s mean, but I think it is important to have some info behind just numbers. I agree with prior poster that youth/MS team is truly the key....and cutting weights aren't.
Points, Here are your total MI numbers according to the NFHS
10-11 457 schools 11,502 wrestlers
11-12 466 11,195
12-13 470 10,904
13-14 469 10,374
14-15 445 9,374
15-16 463 9,396
Appears to be a downward trend. I understand that a few schools not turning in their reports on time could be a factor each year, I would guess this may be why the big drop, then jump back up in the number of schools 13-16?
I also looked at older years, through most of the 90's they hovered at around 11K wrestlers +/-. Into the 80's, like us, they were up above 15K.
Quote from: TeamJ on February 08, 2017, 10:34:25 PM
Also-was curious on the local HS conference meet #'s (8 teams)
3 of 8 teams with 13 or 14 weights. 2 of 3 have/had great youth teams. Lots of HS'ers with "elite" club experience.
1 of 8 teams with 12 weights (historically very good team with full teams, just a young year, little dip). Strong, long term youth club and MS team.
2 of 8 teams with 10 weights (team rosters per track of 28 and 29 kids, ability to fill 12 weights). Know 1 team had some illness/skin issues a week earlier, probably a carryover). Neither with MS team, one with no youth club, one with fair youth club #'s.
1 of 8 teams with 4 weights. (16 on Roster,9 weights). No nothing of this team, or club/MS/youth.
1 of 8 with 6 weights (28 kids, 12 weights). Believe the B-ball team is historically state tourney caliber. No youth team that I know of (MS or club in area).
I have no idea what these #'s mean, but I think it is important to have some info behind just numbers. I agree with prior poster that youth/MS team is truly the key....and cutting weights aren't.
That is interesting information. Probably if you looked state-wide, you'd see a lot of conferences that have similar scenarios. I would agree that building youth and middle school wrestling is a key to building numbers long term.
I'll say it another 1000 times though. The majority of teams cannot fill 14 weights. That's a problem. Numbers in this state are declining. That's a problem. We can look at one aspect (kids club and middle school) or we can look at multiple avenues. We all have opinions on the matter. What really matters is data. Without it, all we have are opinions.
Wrestling is like every other sport. They start out with a ton of youth elementary school athletes. Then they have fewer middle school athletes. Then even fewer high school athletes. Problem in wrestling is that we have the quandary between the team aspect and the individual aspect. Many want and believe that strengthening team concept is way to more numbers (I am in this group). Others believe that we must focus on the individual aspect and that manifests into making sure wrestling looks out for all sizes and maximizes varsity opportunities.
Nobody has a true right answer as everything is an unknown. I just feel like system is not functioning well so want to promote change for the sake of change.
Most on this board are the 10%-ers. Diehard wrestlers in the past that had success or parents of diehard successful wrestlers. Why else would also of us loser wrestling junkies keep a forum so busy! ;D
That 10% is not any problem at all. BUT... wrestling numbers are really about the other 90% that really don't even see qualifying for state as a realistic goal. They are seasonal wrestlers doing it for fun. I respect these guys because they work hard during the season and seldom get their hand raised in a varsity match.
The toip 10% really is not going to change in participation numbers. Wrestling needs to expand the number of kids in that bottom 90%!
I forget how many wrestlers fat tested in Wisconsin but it was something like 7,500 I believe? 1,792 wrestlers qualify for sectionals (896 in D1, 448 in D2, and 448 in D3) If 7,500 is correct or close then only 23% of all wrestlers even qualify for sectionals in a year.
I just think even us diehards that want a healthy sport need to look at it a bit from the perspective of those 77% of kids that don't qualify for sectionals. How do we keep them and increase those numbers? I think these are kids that just want to be part of a team and if the team concept continues to deteriorate then we will continue to have decreasing numbers.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 09, 2017, 09:47:24 AM
Wrestling is like every other sport. They start out with a ton of youth elementary school athletes. Then they have fewer middle school athletes. Then even fewer high school athletes. Problem in wrestling is that we have the quandary between the team aspect and the individual aspect. Many want and believe that strengthening team concept is way to more numbers (I am in this group). Others believe that we must focus on the individual aspect and that manifests into making sure wrestling looks out for all sizes and maximizes varsity opportunities.
Nobody has a true right answer as everything is an unknown. I just feel like system is not functioning well so want to promote change for the sake of change.
Most on this board are the 10%-ers. Diehard wrestlers in the past that had success or parents of diehard successful wrestlers. Why else would also of us loser wrestling junkies keep a forum so busy! ;D
That 10% is not any problem at all. BUT... wrestling numbers are really about the other 90% that really don't even see qualifying for state as a realistic goal. They are seasonal wrestlers doing it for fun. I respect these guys because they work hard during the season and seldom get their hand raised in a varsity match.
The toip 10% really is not going to change in participation numbers. Wrestling needs to expand the number of kids in that bottom 90%!
I forget how many wrestlers fat tested in Wisconsin but it was something like 7,500 I believe? 1,792 wrestlers qualify for sectionals (896 in D1, 448 in D2, and 448 in D3) If 7,500 is correct or close then only 23% of all wrestlers even qualify for sectionals in a year.
I just think even us diehards that want a healthy sport need to look at it a bit from the perspective of those 77% of kids that don't qualify for sectionals. How do we keep them and increase those numbers? I think these are kids that just want to be part of a team and if the team concept continues to deteriorate then we will continue to have decreasing numbers.
I think the mistake we often make is looking at things through the perspective of the 23%, whether it's declining numbers, uniform discussions, reasons for low attendance, or even rules discussions.. We need to seek the opinion of the casual wrestler and the casual fan if we want to grow the sport.. after all, the only way to grow the sport is to attract those who aren't already hooked like us loser wrestling junkies..
Well said and much shorter than I did it but those are my thoughts exactly. I was a diehard. My freshman son is not as he is transitioning to wrestling after mostly doing basketball. Who knows where my second grader ends up? He just wrestles to be with friends and pass the time between football and baseball since I will not let him sit around so his choices are job or wrestling. Many of his friends are the same way and over the past 3 years I have really changed in my perspective of the sport from talking with these kids.
I don't want to take away from the diehards but I feel like they have lots of opportunities with clubs and tourneys before and after the high school season and I think with the WIAA change in allowing 2 "open tournaments" during the season their is more opportunities to develop. I think all needs and wants can be met. Waiting for the "Askren Open" over the holidays.
That 77% wants to start later, have christmas break off, not cut weight, etc. Wrestling, its teams, and its coaches need to find that balance
Is it possible for someone in charge to bump it back to say June of last year? Holy Hannah, put a nail in the coffin and bury this thread!
Yet you thought it an important enough thread to add to it!?!?!?
Quote from: Vipor on February 09, 2017, 03:21:23 PM
Is it possible for someone in charge to bump it back to say June of last year? Holy Hannah, put a nail in the coffin and bury this thread!
Regionals is this weekend, after that data comes out, there isn't anything else to report. Plenty to talk about after that though, maybe another 10-15 pages ;). Thanks for adding on Viper! ;D
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 05, 2017, 08:33:13 PM
Quote from: ElectricGuy on February 03, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
Quote from: littleguy301 on February 03, 2017, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: ElectricGuy on February 02, 2017, 01:11:10 PM
Warning continued viewing of this thread after 17 Pages may cause irrevocable harm to you and others.....
will this make page 18?
Just did.... and nobody blinked.....
There will be Mental Health Councilors available at Kohl Center Gates A, B, C on Feb 23rd, 24th, and 25th for all participants of this thread. Just bring proof of your moniker and all cost will be covered by wiwrestling.com - this has been a wiwrestling public service announcement.
mental health classes lead by maggie?
This is surely going to hit 21 pages, Maggie, you may have to resort to electric shock treatment and yes I can help you with any power needs for that. ;)
Well, since everyone is all a twitter about D2 and D3 Regionals where teams simply can't cover all 14 weight classes (surprised much?) I did the numbers for D1 Regionals across the state. Guess what? Lot's of open slots there too.
We had 128 D1 teams participating with 14 weight classes for 1792 weight slots. We filled 1379 of them, leaving room for 413 more wrestlers. This averaged out to be 77% filled which equates to a team average of 10.7 varsity wrestlers per D1 team. Only a couple decimal points higher than our average tournament weekend.
Our most dense weight class this weekend was 170 (some weight dropping and/or bumping occurred) coming in at 84% full. If every weight was that full our D1 team average would be 11.2 varsity wrestlers.
As far as the Regions go, there was one that had 6 of it's 8-man brackets filled (leaving 8 with openings), but that was it. Most regions only had 0-3 brackets filled.
I'll leave the Region Team totals to Ghetto, that's his deal and he's been doing it very well for a long time.
But, we now have seen a season's worth of not filling weight classes. It's in every division and every corner of the state. And it isn't for lack of effort or ideas from coaches. Ghetto's numbers show this was a problem for over 10 years, pretty much as soon as we went to 14 weights, forfeits increased.
D1 Regionals.Of 128:
Weight Number Percent filled
106 92 71%
113 98 76%
120 96 75%
126 93 72%
132 107 83%
138 96 75%
145 106 83%
152 105 82%
160 103 80%
170 108 84%
182 103 30%
195 98 76%
220 91 70%
285 93 72%
It isn't about every team having a full lineup. It is about certain regionals that have byes moving on to sectionals or two kids in a bracket.
Quote from: wrastle63 on February 13, 2017, 01:43:27 PM
It isn't about every team having a full lineup. It is about certain regionals that have byes moving on to sectionals or two kids in a bracket.
The point is we can't come close to filling the weight classes any weekend of the year, much less at Regionals. Forfeits and open weights hurt the sport and individual teams. Limited or no JV hurts the sport and individual teams.
I still think the best scenario to maybe make everything work for all to a degree is to stick with 14 weights for tournaments but create a dual only weight class system that maybe has 10 weight classes. Goal would be to have a JV followed by a varsity dual with 20 matches wrestled plus some exhibition matches.
14 weight classes- 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145,xxx 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285
10- weight classes- 115, 126, 134, 142, 150, 162, 172, 185, 200, 285
I think we would see some outstanding duals and very few forfeits with a 10 weight class system like that
Tournaments are what all my numbers are from all year Doc, we never averaged even 11 wrestlers per team in any weekend of the year. People are up in arms about Regional tournaments.
Duals look even worse in many cases. 6-10 forfeits per dual seems to be all too common.
Having two sets of weight classes for kids to remember and coaches to keep track of would add to the already too-long list of "stuff" for what should be a pretty simple and straightforward sport.
Create the number of weight classes that best fits the overwhelming majority of teams. I'm not sure why that doesn't make sense?
Anyway, it sounds like people from the NFHS are getting on board the 12 weight train, hopefully they can make some changes and help save teams and give upstart teams (especially in traditionally non-wrestling states) an easier goal to attain.
Went to a Section dual last night. Great teams, great coaching, great wrestling, congrats to both teams on your efforts last night. Each team had 42 kids on their roster. Up through the late 1980's that wasn't quite the number for an average team in this state.
Kind of hard to imagine that now only a few elite programs have the numbers of what was average then. :-\
Kids had jobs, chores, girlfriends, music, cars and other sports to play then as now. And dare I say there was probably as much or more alcohol, tobacco and drug use then?
So what actually changed in our sport? The kids are pretty much the same when you get down to it. If we all had cell phones and computers we would have used them too, so it isn't that much about their "stuff".
What is turning kids off about it, rather than turning them on?
A coach last weekend mentioned "No cheerleaders". Maybe in part? A whole generation of moms didn't grow up cheering for wrestlers, so to have their boys wrestle is foreign to them?
Quote from: Handles II on February 15, 2017, 03:24:14 PM
Went to a Section dual last night. Great teams, great coaching, great wrestling, congrats to both teams on your efforts last night. Each team had 42 kids on their roster. Up through the late 1980's that wasn't quite the number for an average team in this state.
Kind of hard to imagine that now only a few elite programs have the numbers of what was average then. :-\
Kids had jobs, chores, girlfriends, music, cars and other sports to play then as now. And dare I say there was probably as much or more alcohol, tobacco and drug use then?
So what actually changed in our sport? The kids are pretty much the same when you get down to it. If we all had cell phones and computers we would have used them too, so it isn't that much about their "stuff".
What is turning kids off about it, rather than turning them on?
A coach last weekend mentioned "No cheerleaders". Maybe in part? A whole generation of moms didn't grow up cheering for wrestlers, so to have their boys wrestle is foreign to them?
This is one of the reasons that girls wrestling can save wrestling.. A mom that wrestles will encourage her sons and her daughters to wrestle rather than be the parent that you have to win over or constantly fight when she tries to get her kid not to wrestle for various reasons..
As for the number of forfeits, do we have data on forfeits by weight class and school?? If we combined that data with fat test data per school and actually see how many fewer forfeits we would see if we had different combinations of new weight classes, either of the same number or fewer weight classes.. Without that data people are just seeing say an average of 12 wrestlers and saying 12 weight classes would be better.. That's just not something you can say without looking at the data. in many cases you will be eliminating weight classes where there actually would have been 2 wrestlers in a particular dual and leaving the ones where there were forfeits, leaving the only possibility of eliminating a forfeit having a number of kids bump up in weight class. Some teams won't have a 285 or a 120, some won't have a 106 or a 220, some won't have a 132 or a 182.. How are you going to come up with new weight classes that fix all that??? And if you do, at what cost?? How many opportunities are you going to take away from kids to avoid a few forfeits.. Myself, I am not bothered by a few forfeits.. We only had 2 duals I believe this year that I recall where the number of forfeits was out of control, and that was against teams with 4 and 6 wrestlers.. reducing weight classes isn't going to help that much..
Quote from: ChargerDad on February 16, 2017, 06:59:06 AM
Quote from: Handles II on February 15, 2017, 03:24:14 PM
Went to a Section dual last night. Great teams, great coaching, great wrestling, congrats to both teams on your efforts last night. Each team had 42 kids on their roster. Up through the late 1980's that wasn't quite the number for an average team in this state.
Kind of hard to imagine that now only a few elite programs have the numbers of what was average then. :-\
Kids had jobs, chores, girlfriends, music, cars and other sports to play then as now. And dare I say there was probably as much or more alcohol, tobacco and drug use then?
So what actually changed in our sport? The kids are pretty much the same when you get down to it. If we all had cell phones and computers we would have used them too, so it isn't that much about their "stuff".
What is turning kids off about it, rather than turning them on?
A coach last weekend mentioned "No cheerleaders". Maybe in part? A whole generation of moms didn't grow up cheering for wrestlers, so to have their boys wrestle is foreign to them?
This is one of the reasons that girls wrestling can save wrestling.. A mom that wrestles will encourage her sons and her daughters to wrestle rather than be the parent that you have to win over or constantly fight when she tries to get her kid not to wrestle for various reasons..
As for the number of forfeits, do we have data on forfeits by weight class and school?? If we combined that data with fat test data per school and actually see how many fewer forfeits we would see if we had different combinations of new weight classes, either of the same number or fewer weight classes.. Without that data people are just seeing say an average of 12 wrestlers and saying 12 weight classes would be better.. That's just not something you can say without looking at the data. in many cases you will be eliminating weight classes where there actually would have been 2 wrestlers in a particular dual and leaving the ones where there were forfeits, leaving the only possibility of eliminating a forfeit having a number of kids bump up in weight class. Some teams won't have a 285 or a 120, some won't have a 106 or a 220, some won't have a 132 or a 182.. How are you going to come up with new weight classes that fix all that??? And if you do, at what cost?? How many opportunities are you going to take away from kids to avoid a few forfeits.. Myself, I am not bothered by a few forfeits.. We only had 2 duals I believe this year that I recall where the number of forfeits was out of control, and that was against teams with 4 and 6 wrestlers.. reducing weight classes isn't going to help that much..
I do have the bodyfat data from the past five years. Not by team. Just overall for the state. I'll send some stuff to you.
My data is broken down by weight class. It's pretty easy to see that in the 113 and 195/220 weights there are simply fewer wrestlers, and those weights could be somehow absorbed or blended in, yet even at 145 and 152, we aren't even close to filling the spots. It doesn't matter D1,D2,D3. As a state, we can't. As a sport, we can't. Looking at other states, they can't. Yes, some individual teams can, but again, they are in the minority.
I understand your frustration that in some cases, on some teams, there will still be open slots. I agree. There are teams out there without a 152 bler. That wouldn't matter if it was 10 weights or 20 weights. That's just the nature of a team, and a team is always changing. We need to look at the sport as a whole, state-wide and beyond.
At our school, we have a consistent level two football team the last 20 years, a basketball team that wins 1 or 2 games sometimes 3 in the post season, a wrestling team that has been regional champs or 2nd in the last 7 years, a baseball team that is in the top half of the conference the last 10 years, and an average track team. We have an enrollment between 180 and 225 in those years. I would say we are above average for athletes and I would be willing to bet that our best athletes are between 160 and 210 pounds and plenty of them could wrestle if they chose to and they choose to play basketball or do nothing. We did not have a 195 or 220 lber the last two years.
Not sure if that means anything or not, but it seems to me there are plenty of bigger athletes out there. I know this year there were at least 8 guys on the basketball team at that weight and 4 of them had wrestled in youth and qualified for youth state at least once and some a couple of times.
Quote from: Handles II on February 16, 2017, 08:28:29 AM
My data is broken down by weight class. It's pretty easy to see that in the 113 and 195/220 weights there are simply fewer wrestlers, and those weights could be somehow absorbed or blended in, yet even at 145 and 152, we aren't even close to filling the spots. It doesn't matter D1,D2,D3. As a state, we can't. As a sport, we can't. Looking at other states, they can't. Yes, some individual teams can, but again, they are in the minority.
I understand your frustration that in some cases, on some teams, there will still be open slots. I agree. There are teams out there without a 152 bler. That wouldn't matter if it was 10 weights or 20 weights. That's just the nature of a team, and a team is always changing. We need to look at the sport as a whole, state-wide and beyond.
I would argue that preserving 14 weight classes, and changing them to better match the normal distribution of weights of wrestlers would help that too..
I agree Charger. I have posted the CDC weight charts on here before but no one seemed interested.
Not going to read all the pages as Ive seen it every year.....however take this into consideration.
This year I had 32 kids come out in junior high....30 have stuck with it.
This week...which would be regionals week for high school we attended two meets. I had 16 and 13 kids...grades, injuries, illness all contributed. Same goes on at the high school level. Just saying...you can look at numbers any way you want to benefit your argument. I could say "WOW...I had 32 kids go out!!!" and the nay sayers can say "WOW...you only had 13 kids at the last meet!!!"
I believe they have compiled the numbers for every single tournament....not just the end of the year.
If you don't want to use the data available, what should be used? Emotion? Gut instinct ?
Quote from: whatever on February 16, 2017, 07:24:04 PM
I believe they have compiled the numbers for every single tournament....not just the end of the year.
If you don't want to use the data available, what should be used? Emotion? Gut instinct ?
No one can argue the numbers are less...but theres many reasons why numbers are less in wrestling, especially at the end of the year. No one can really make the argument dropping weight classes really fixes anything either. This is probably why this argument goes on every year but nothing really changes.
You may be right .
My only thought is that smaller schools who face bigger challenges with numbers are more likely to get dropped completely.
I think programs getting cut is much worse than some kids having to face stiffer competition to earn a spot on varsity.
Padre, all the things you describe happen in every sport and yet they still have reserves to fill in and complete a lineup.
My point is that having 14 kids on your team perfectly spaced to fill all weight classes still is not enough.
We need a system that allows for teams to have TWO kids at every weight class as possible lineup.
This kind of why I am more for a drastic change and going all the way to 10 weight classes. Teams would not only be filling weight classes but having back-ups/JV's to fill in when all those things you described happen.
Dropping one or 2 weight classes is really not going to change much.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 08:33:38 PM
Padre, all the things you describe happen in every sport and yet they still have reserves to fill in and complete a lineup.
My point is that having 14 kids on your team perfectly spaced to fill all weight classes still is not enough.
We need a system that allows for teams to have TWO kids at every weight class as possible lineup.
This kind of why I am more for a drastic change and going all the way to 10 weight classes. Teams would not only be filling weight classes but having back-ups/JV's to fill in when all those things you described happen.
Dropping one or 2 weight classes is really not going to change much.
In some ways I agree but when we get to good sized tournaments I see great wrestling at the end in all weight classes....I get the duals have forfeits and hate that also but when everything weeds itself out we get a bunch of real good kids at 14 weight classes. I'd hate to see these opportunities missed by these excellent kids because some teams cant fill their weight class more than others. Not going to change any minds on this as I respect Doc, Ghetto and others on the other side of the fence but we've been arguing this 15 years and it remains the same so we try to deal with what we have.
The main difference now Padre is we have annual and weekly data now, we didn't 15 years ago. Everyone just formulated their opinion based on what they knew, saw, or liked/disliked.
I was one that was very much for 14 weights. Why? I had 50 kids in the room and every weight covered twice or more. I knew my opponents wouldn't. Advantage my team. I wasn't looking out for the sport though. Some of those teams are now just memories. They simply couldn't make it work with 14 weights, though at 12, many would have been quite competitive. Good schools with good wrestling histories are now just that, history. Do you want that to continue? Again, see the numbers. NFHS, tournaments, conference, regionals, duals. D1-3. They are all showing lack of numbers OR as you bring up, lack of depth.
With 12 weights(?), some of these teams and co-ops might be able to separate and stand on their own feet again. Increase programs and the sport will start to grow again. Our emerging wrestling states could build teams and programs quicker. This all leads to more wrestling, more popularity, good for all of us, not just good for a few.
Quote from: whatever on February 16, 2017, 07:32:12 PM
You may be right .
My only thought is that smaller schools who face bigger challenges with numbers are more likely to get dropped completely.
I think programs getting cut is much worse than some kids having to face stiffer competition to earn a spot on varsity.
AMEN to that.
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 07:00:36 PM
Not going to read all the pages as Ive seen it every year.....however take this into consideration.
This year I had 32 kids come out in junior high....30 have stuck with it.
This week...which would be regionals week for high school we attended two meets. I had 16 and 13 kids...grades, injuries, illness all contributed. Same goes on at the high school level. Just saying...you can look at numbers any way you want to benefit your argument. I could say "WOW...I had 32 kids go out!!!" and the nay sayers can say "WOW...you only had 13 kids at the last meet!!!"
What? you had kids not wrestle sectionals because of a grade issue? You enforced a rule and took away an opportunity for that kid? What?????? Enforcing a rule and taking away nd opportunity for that kid?????WOW
::)
You are comparing a rule infraction the student had control over (grades) vs a rule infraction they did not have control over.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 07:00:36 PM
Not going to read all the pages as Ive seen it every year.....however take this into consideration.
This year I had 32 kids come out in junior high....30 have stuck with it.
This week...which would be regionals week for high school we attended two meets. I had 16 and 13 kids...grades, injuries, illness all contributed. Same goes on at the high school level. Just saying...you can look at numbers any way you want to benefit your argument. I could say "WOW...I had 32 kids go out!!!" and the nay sayers can say "WOW...you only had 13 kids at the last meet!!!"
What? you had kids not wrestle sectionals because of a grade issue? You enforced a rule and took away an opportunity for that kid? What?????? Enforcing a rule and taking away nd opportunity for that kid?????WOW
::)
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 09:16:46 AM
Quote from: whatever on February 16, 2017, 07:32:12 PM
You may be right .
My only thought is that smaller schools who face bigger challenges with numbers are more likely to get dropped completely.
I think programs getting cut is much worse than some kids having to face stiffer competition to earn a spot on varsity.
AMEN to that.
Glad to see you finally coming around Ram. So 12 weights or 13? 11?
Quote from: Ghetto on February 17, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 09:16:46 AM
Quote from: whatever on February 16, 2017, 07:32:12 PM
You may be right .
My only thought is that smaller schools who face bigger challenges with numbers are more likely to get dropped completely.
I think programs getting cut is much worse than some kids having to face stiffer competition to earn a spot on varsity.
AMEN to that.
Glad to see you finally coming around Ram. So 12 weights or 13? 11?
I will admit I a softening to the idea as long as it is implemented with some of the other excellent ideas concurrently.
I did this same study back in 2006. Coaches Association discussed this topic for years to no avail. 14 weights has gotta go.