http://www.wrestlestats.com/Team/DualComparison/77/wisconsin/35/iowa-state#commonOpponents
Cyclones score payback against Panthers, 24-12
http://wcfcourier.com/sports/blogs/half_nelson_half_fiction/college-wrestling-cyclones-score-payback-against-panthers/article_3e979e33-b8ff-5f62-88a1-12c682205e7f.html
IOWA STATE 24, NORTHERN IOWA 12
174 - Tanner Weatherman (ISU) dec. Curt Maas 6-2,
184 - Lelund Weatherspoon (ISU) dec. Kyle Lux 10-3,
197 - Kyven Gadson (ISU) dec. Basil Minto 17-5,
Hwt. - Blaize (UNI) dec. Quean Smith 5-2,
125 - Dylan Peters (UNI) pinned Kyle Larson, 2:57,
133 - Earl Hall (ISU) dec. Leighton Gual 9-3,
141 - Dante Rodriguez (ISU) dec. Jake Hodges 13-1,
149 - Gabe Moreno (ISU) dec. Gunnar Wolfensperger 13-4,
157 - Jarrett Jensen (UNI) dec. Luke Goettl 4-2,
165 - Mike Moreno (ISU) dec. Cooper Moore 5-2.
I am $10 poorer, I sprung for Cylcones.TV so I can see Badgers match this weekend.
Been watching the Cyclones matches from earlier this season. Hall is awesome quick with leg shots, but he fades a bit sometimes. I just watched very generic Gary Wayne Harding from Oklahoma State nearly come back, final score 8-7. I think RT has a shot to pick him off.
Iowa State has 6 ranked wrestlers, all 10 are competitive. They are tough challenge.
133 #3 Earl Hall
149 #12 Gabe Moreno
165 #3 Michael Moreno
174 #12 Tanner Weatherman
184 #16 Lelund Weatherspoon
197 #2 Kyven Gadson
Lots of key matches going into nationals. Taylor vs. Hall is gonna be a good one.
http://www.wrestlestats.com/Team/DualComparison/77/wisconsin/35/iowa-state#commonOpponents
we need wins at 125,141,and 157 if we want to think about winning this one. Lot of measuring stick matches here, 133,165, 184,197. need to win at least 2 of those as well. if we can do that connor should seal the win.
great opportunity for both the team and individuals. Work hard and go get them BUCKY!
What time does it start today, 1:00?
I got the one-day cyclonestv deal too. Small price to pay to watch Bucky dismantle da 'clones! Staying home and watching live streaming college wrestling on a cold Sunday afternoon is easily worth the $10.
I think Badgers win this one 18-14. Upset-alert: Timmy gets an early lead on Gadsen and holds on for the win!
GO BADGERS!
Quote from: badgerjohn on February 19, 2015, 02:21:46 PM
http://www.wrestlestats.com/Team/DualComparison/77/wisconsin/35/iowa-state#commonOpponents
WOW.. badgerjohn, did you build that thing? Where did you find that? Neat... Thanks for sharing that.
I honestly have never seen that. How long has it been around?
Quote from: badgerjohn on February 19, 2015, 02:21:46 PM
http://www.wrestlestats.com/Team/DualComparison/77/wisconsin/35/iowa-state#commonOpponents
So, Donar is not wrestling today?
Quote from: leg turk on February 22, 2015, 09:38:25 AM
Quote from: badgerjohn on February 19, 2015, 02:21:46 PM
http://www.wrestlestats.com/Team/DualComparison/77/wisconsin/35/iowa-state#commonOpponents
So, Donar is not wrestling today?
He prolly is.
Cool site, generally speaking, but some of their listed line ups are inaccurate ;) For example- they have 'Jason Swets' listed as the 174 starter for NW and there is no such person on the team ;D
Quote from: sadpanda on February 22, 2015, 10:09:40 AM
Quote from: leg turk on February 22, 2015, 09:38:25 AM
Quote from: badgerjohn on February 19, 2015, 02:21:46 PM
http://www.wrestlestats.com/Team/DualComparison/77/wisconsin/35/iowa-state#commonOpponents
So, Donar is not wrestling today?
He prolly is.
Cool site, generally speaking, but some of their listed line ups are inaccurate ;) For example- they have 'Jason Swets' listed as the 174 starter for NW and there is no such person on the team ;D
It appears you can manually change the listed starter with the drop down roster list...
Ordered and tuned in! Hope it is a good one. GO BADGERS!!!
Any updates from anybody would be great.
Quote from: leg turk on February 22, 2015, 02:12:23 PM
Any updates from anybody would be great.
must be running late
http://s101.trackwrestling.com/tw/seasons/MainFrame.jsp?TIM=1424635849763&twSessionId=gvqvmtcwokdnakb&loadBalanced=true
That last link didn't seem to work. If you go to Iowa State website with this link, you can click on the TV camera by the UW match and it links you into track.
http://www.cyclones.com/liveStats/liveStats.dbml?SPSID=46632&SPID=4248&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10700
lubeck lost
Ruschell ahead by 4 - 2nd pd
9-6 tj with 1 min left ...has a stalling
Td for tj. 11-6
TJ with a major decision!!! Zeke time...
tj wins
Ruschell at 57? Where is Liegel?
Jordan td
Moreno esc
Jordan warned stalling
Jordan gets stuck!
well that was a wake up call. zeke just got stuck. iowa st up 9-4
It was a hard mat return ...maybe got the wind knocked out or bell rung
At least he'll have a couple weeks to think about it.
iowa 3-2 in second pd
iowa escape
frank gets stuck
Iowa stshowed up...look good
15-4 for Iowa St after another pin. Beat down is happening.
Good grief.
ricky gives up td .. then gets escape
Quote from: Musky Hunter on February 22, 2015, 02:47:08 PM
15-4 for Iowa St after another pin. Beat down is happening.
yep...
what is the deal with going to Iowa and seemly not prepared (NIU last year).
Need some wins now men!
td ricky...
kind of illegal move off the whizzer
iowa st challenging the move. single leg cut back. but he may have been on the mat.
I believe that is called a 'Navy dump' and I don't think it is illegal...
ref says it is legal
4-2 after 2nd pd ricky
ricky gets high with the legs and gets reversed ..tied
Quote from: TomM on February 22, 2015, 02:54:44 PM
I believe that is called a 'Navy dump' and I don't think it is illegal...
I don't think its legal either...
we caught a break
iowa locks hands... ricky up by one
ricky hangs on... barely
Nice win Ricky! 15-7 at the break.
Quote from: TomM on February 22, 2015, 02:54:44 PM
I believe that is called a 'Navy dump' and I don't think it is illegal...
youre correct .. just looked it up ... it is legal
great win for Ricky!
Ricky continues to be impressive! this is another good quality win. Keep it up!
Very close to being a cut back, but legal, because the offensive wrestler does not cause the defensive wrestler. to take all his weight.
Timmy down 6-0 going into the third.
Not kidding. Now Timmy gets pinned. 21-7 now. :-X
Medberry gets a fall. 21-13.
need three wins to finish!
Johnny down 5-2 heading into third.
Johnny got rode in the third and loses. 24-13. Totally laid down the entire third.
4-3 RT!!!! Huge win
State has come with the Bonus Points. Not what we needed
Atta boy RT! Much lower scoring than usual - huge to get those victories!
and jesse gets stuck to end it.
Quote from: hammen on February 22, 2015, 03:45:59 PM
Atta boy RT! Much lower scoring than usual - huge to get those victories!
That was a great match. Two studs going after it. That is why I watch this sport. So fun to watch.
No worries it only matters next month.
So 4 of our guys got stuck? Is that some sort of record?
Great win RT!
Thanks for the updates guys.
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 22, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
No worries it only matters next month.
Oh, you are droll today Jags ;)
What an uneven performance by the team. Exasperating.
Kudos to RT for an outstanding win. And to Ruschell wrestling up a weight for the win. RR and CM as well for doing their jobs.
I paid the $10.. it is for one month memberships.. Auto renews, so have to cancel, but can anyone figure out if the Big 12 meet will be on that cyclone TV thingy? I can't seem to figure it out. (Yes, user error...)
Robertson impresses... every week IMO... good stuff. (as do others.)
I think the B12 tourney is streamed on the tournament site for free or Flo. Don't think you will need the cyclone membership to view it.
Nice win by RT, I was not sure he would be able to handle the quickness of Hall.
The JT result is disheartening, I am a big fan of his. He needs to get winning again and have some positive things happen, even if it means a change of scenery. Whether it is a new D1 school, D3 or going the D. Hall route, mentally he needs to get back on track.
Whatever happened to Isaac Jordan doesn't change he's probably going to repeat as All American. Ryan Taylor and Connor Medbery are on fire. Ricky Robertson is probably a year away from being All American but it is possible this year. Johnny Jimenez is taking his lumps but he was supposed to redshirt this year so he was thrown in prematurely which should pay off later. Then there is a big gap with the rest of the team.
That is fascinating that at 157 lbs. Timothy Ruschell over Luke Goetti 14-6.
And how extremely impressive Taylor has been this year.
The Wisconsin high school wrestlers on the varsity have certainly not held up
their end of the log this year. It would seem that Timothy Ruschell certainly
deserves a shot a competing in the Big Ten Tournament after that performance.
Hopefully the wheels get back on before the BIG's, four guys ready to wrestle, not impressed... RT - keep exceeding expectations!
The story summary over on the Inter-Mat (http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/14204) suggests that JT got thrown to his back before was got pinned - is that true? Not that how you got to your back matters very much when you are talking about getting stuck, but I might have thought that it would almost be impossible to win a throw-situation with JT.
Below is a link to highlights that shows how Jordan, McCall, Cousins, and Thielke were pinned.
http://www.cyclones.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=10700&id=3742392
It's just hard for me to believe, 4 out of 10 guys can get stuck in one dual meet, in D-1 wrestling. Barry has some work to do.
Quote from: mkm13 on February 23, 2015, 06:28:27 AM
Below is a link to highlights that shows how Jordan, McCall, Cousins, and Thielke were pinned.
http://www.cyclones.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=10700&id=3742392
JT looks like he hit a very nice body lock just got caught and it looked very tight once he did.
I will chalk this up to a bad day but pretty bad time of year to have such a downer. I have never thought much of Barry's motivational skills.
Before the year began I thought we would have 8 ranked wrestlers and send 8-9 to NCAA's, now that we are at the end of the year looks like we may have 4-5 ranked and send 5-6 to NCAA's, my prediction of 7th in the B1G may have been a bit high. Oh wait, I just looked and I predicted 8th so I should be OK
This is a bit off topic but I am impressed by quality of the highlight video put together. I have never seen anything close to that quality produced about the WI program, but I will admit I have never looked so maybe it is out there. It was shot and uploaded right after the meet as well. I also thought it was impressive how they were linked to trackwrestling for the stats. Maybe WI does do stuff like this and I need to visit the Wisconsin Athletic page more often.
I think it is ridiculous that in this day and age of the internet one still has to search to find results if the event is not on trackwrestling. I think this holds our sport back, if scores and updates were available for wrestling like they are football or basketball it would help generate interest.
Quote from: Micah on February 23, 2015, 07:56:43 AM
This is a bit off topic but I am impressed by quality of the highlight video put together. I have never seen anything close to that quality produced about the WI program, but I will admit I have never looked so maybe it is out there. It was shot and uploaded right after the meet as well. I also thought it was impressive how they were linked to trackwrestling for the stats. Maybe WI does do stuff like this and I need to visit the Wisconsin Athletic page more often.
I think it is ridiculous that in this day and age of the internet one still has to search to find results if the event is not on trackwrestling. I think this holds our sport back, if scores and updates were available for wrestling like they are football or basketball it would help generate interest.
Anymore, I look on the opposing teams website for coverage, because they usually have way better coverage of the match on their twitter or Facebook page. I agree though, they want us to be great wrestling fans and supporters, but yet it's hard to find coverage.
Quote from: TomM on February 22, 2015, 04:02:16 PM
I paid the $10.. it is for one month memberships.. Auto renews, so have to cancel, but can anyone figure out if the Big 12 meet will be on that cyclone TV thingy? I can't seem to figure it out. (Yes, user error...)
I too was hoping to see some extended coverage of Big 12 tourny on Cyclones.TV, but Fox College Sports Channel has rights to tournament, so probably won't be anything on Cyclones.TV or Flo. We'll see.
I enjoyed watched many of the Iowa State matches on Cyclones TV because they have either wrestling high priests Jim Gibbons or Ed Banach do the commentary. It makes it more interesting to have some knowledgeable banter. The OK State, Virg Tech and Northern Iowa matches were all worth a look.
And then came the big show - the Badger dual. I just finished watching. My trip to dentist to get wisdom teeth extracted comes to mind. Really an awful showing.
The positives are obvious: RT beat a top tier guy, nothing fluky about that win. Hall wrestled well too. RT should set goal at National Championship.
Ricky Robertson beat a very good wrestler. Should help his seeding. Weatherspoon is a strong, explosive kid, wasn't sure RR could handle him physically. He did.
I don't know much about Wisconsin's Rauschel, was impressed with his skill on top. The Senior he beat is sloppy, but pretty good.
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 23, 2015, 07:15:47 AM
Quote from: mkm13 on February 23, 2015, 06:28:27 AM
Below is a link to highlights that shows how Jordan, McCall, Cousins, and Thielke were pinned.
http://www.cyclones.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=10700&id=3742392
JT looks like he hit a very nice body lock just got caught and it looked very tight once he did.
I will chalk this up to a bad day but pretty bad time of year to have such a downer. I have never thought much of Barry's motivational skills.
Jag,
If there is one think consistent on this forum with you is that every topic can turn into Barry bashing.
What does JT getting pinned have to do with Barry's motivational skills?
When Ramos got pinned by Colon and Metcalf got spladled by Caldwell is that on Brands?
When Taylor got pinned by Bubba Jenkins and when Brandon Kingsley got pinned by Moore is that on Cael?
When Ness got smoked by Realbuto and pinned by Ian Miller is that on J-Rob?
When Konrad pinned Mocco was that on John Smith?
Never thought much of their motivational skills either.....
I think you should probably coach the Badgers since you seem to have all of the answers and I am sure you are a master motivator
Isaac Jordan getting pinned will make him work so it doesn't happen again, but it's not the same as three wrestlers in a downtrend or flatline all season getting pinned. The coach has something to do with guys who don't get better as the season goes on.
"The coach has something to do with guys who don't get better as the season goes on."
Not necessarily at all!
Maybe they are not D1 caliber wrestlers.
Quote from: vsmf2010 on February 23, 2015, 06:15:56 PM
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 23, 2015, 07:15:47 AM
Quote from: mkm13 on February 23, 2015, 06:28:27 AM
Below is a link to highlights that shows how Jordan, McCall, Cousins, and Thielke were pinned.
http://www.cyclones.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=10700&id=3742392
JT looks like he hit a very nice body lock just got caught and it looked very tight once he did.
I will chalk this up to a bad day but pretty bad time of year to have such a downer. I have never thought much of Barry's motivational skills.
Jag,
If there is one think consistent on this forum with you is that every topic can turn into Barry bashing.
What does JT getting pinned have to do with Barry's motivational skills?
When Ramos got pinned by Colon and Metcalf got spladled by Caldwell is that on Brands?
When Taylor got pinned by Bubba Jenkins and when Brandon Kingsley got pinned by Moore is that on Cael?
When Ness got smoked by Realbuto and pinned by Ian Miller is that on J-Rob?
When Konrad pinned Mocco was that on John Smith?
Never thought much of their motivational skills either.....
I think you should probably coach the Badgers since you seem to have all of the answers and I am sure you are a master motivator
well the reason why I have a space between the two statements would be because they are comments on JT in one line and the team in the next, the Badgers have a history of not showing up for big matches and big tournaments so yes I believe the blame is on coaching not being able to get the team motivated and get the best from their wrestlers when they need it. I guess you don't believe it was a poor performance and I guess you believe this being the last match before the year is over is a good time for it. Instead of peaking they seem to be grabbing anything they can to keep their head above water.
I guess you forget all the "next year" talk
next year was 3 years ago, that one didn't work out so then last year was "next year"
that didn't work out so then this year was "next year"
and here we sit ready to finish middle of the pack in the B1G and maybe squeak out a top 15 in the NCAA.... seems like "next year" never comes... but I'm glad your fine with that and our "success" as a team.
Don Pritzlaf got pinned in a dual meet by an IA state kid "Joe Heskett" but Don would go on to beat him 2 years in a row for the national championship. R-E-L-A-X
If you were to analyze the team you have to admit:
1) Medbery, Jordan and Taylor have all met or exceeded the high expectations all Badger fans hoped for this season.
2) Timmy McCall has looked good at times the past two years and has struggled equally as much the past two years. Gas tank is always an issue, but had a decent NCAA tournament last year.
3) Wisconsin high school wrestlers on the varsity have oddly all taken a step back this year. Early season weight cuts hurt, but they should be rounding into form by now, so I am at a loss.
4) Ricky Roberson has a bright future ahead of him.
5) Redshirt freshman are a darn good group. (I fully believe next years Badger team will finish ahead of Minnesota in both the Big Ten Tournament and NCAA Tournament)
6) Jimenez missed out on a redshirt year so too early to know what his future holds.
Comment:
If I was on the coaching staff I would be greatly concerned about
finding a heavyweight. Medbery is going
to leave some huge shoes to fill. And I have hit my limit on
excuses about wrestlers not buying in. If I hear one more
then it falls on the coaching staff. And being able to recruit
Breske is key to success. Impossible to use the excuse that
the coaching staff was not aware of his talents(the
absurd excuse they used for Ben Askren)
Hope this is a wake up call to some of the Badgers and hopefully they get it straight for the next month of the season.
Not necessarily at all!
Maybe they are not D1 caliber wrestlers.
Unfortunately, this statement by MNBadger is true. When you have a handful of guys who make big improvements and meet expectations and have another handful of guys who simply don't even seem to improve over the course of the year that isn't on the coaching staff. That is on the individual wrestler.
Outside of Thielke, all the other wrestlers who have "not lived up to expectations" have really never had much success against D1 college wrestlers. In high school none of them were highly ranked and their record against future D1 college wrestlers were not good. I don't think some people appreciate how big of jump it is to college wrestling, especially when you start out by not being a high level recruit to begin with.
To achieve the success most want here, it has to start with recruiting more talent (and hopefully having more talent in WI to pick from). I think Barry has done a good job with working with the talent he has. Hard to argue with the great success Jordan, Taylor, Medberry have had this year. Robertson is also right there as well, considering he is only a redshirt freshman.
Quote from: billymurphy on February 23, 2015, 11:18:07 PM
If you were to analyze the team you have to admit:
1) Medbery, Jordan and Taylor have all met or exceeded the high expectations all Badger fans hoped for this season.
2) Timmy McCall has looked good at times the past two years and has struggled equally as much the past two years. Gas tank is always an issue, but had a decent NCAA tournament last year.
3) Wisconsin high school wrestlers on the varsity have oddly all taken a step back this year. Early season weight cuts hurt, but they should be rounding into form by now, so I am at a loss.
4) Ricky Roberson has a bright future ahead of him.
5) Redshirt freshman are a darn good group. (I fully believe next years Badger team will finish ahead of Minnesota in both the Big Ten Tournament and NCAA Tournament)
6) Jimenez missed out on a redshirt year so too early to know what his future holds.
Comment:
If I was on the coaching staff I would be greatly concerned about
finding a heavyweight. Medbery is going
to leave some huge shoes to fill. And I have hit my limit on
excuses about wrestlers not buying in. If I hear one more
then it falls on the coaching staff. And being able to recruit
Breske is key to success. Impossible to use the excuse that
the coaching staff was not aware of his talents(the
absurd excuse they used for Ben Askren)
I have to agree with these comments, but I would add a kudos to Frank Cousins. He has stepped up his game and solidified a weight class for the team. It would be awesome to see him put together a magical run here at the end of season.
Hey - DI is tough (everyone should try it if they want to have an opinion on the matter). Not everyone can be a winner at that level - logistically impossible. So let's not diminish their pursuit of excellence by those who accept that challenge; their courage to pursue their aspirations, even if they aren't big winners on the mat, is reason enough to heap some laurels on them, IMHO.
I was in no way trying to diminish anyone's efforts. Some wrestlers don't make it in DI. The difference between making it and not is often razor thin.
Quote from: npope on February 24, 2015, 12:00:33 PM
Hey - DI is tough (everyone should try it if they want to have an opinion on the matter). Not everyone can be a winner at that level - logistically impossible. So let's not diminish their pursuit of excellence by those who accept that challenge; their courage to pursue their aspirations, even if they aren't big winners on the mat, is reason enough to heap some laurels on them, IMHO.
I think you can say this about wrestling at every level. Those that can make the cut do, those that don't wash out. The margin sometimes is razor thin and that has to be respected, but I don't think we need to sugar coat losing under the veil of courage. Success isn't easy, but failure shouldn't be acceptable. Some of these hometown kids were heavily recruited, given more scholarship money than others and with that comes high expectations. When those expectation are not lived up to, fans get a bit frustrated with the wrestler and the program itself. Reason along with facts of the situation are usually not given so we make assumptions about work ethic and commitment. I don't think it is fair for supposed insiders to tell fans that we are wrong and then not provide any more information when we question an athletes production. Should we just put our kool-aid glasses on and clap like monkeys regardless of performance and shout, "You are all winners!"
Heck why don't we just give out trophies to every division one athlete for just going out there and competing.
No we should not be "drinking the Kool-aid". You just cut your losses and recruit again.
I have enjoyed following this years Badger team and am excited for the Big Ten's and NCAA's. This weekend's performance was disappointing but I am still very optimistic. We have 3 legitimate title contenders and a handful of others that can make some noise and hopefully AA. This is a very young team with a lot of promise.
Quote from: nutters55 on February 24, 2015, 05:55:14 PM
Quote from: npope on February 24, 2015, 12:00:33 PM
Hey - DI is tough (everyone should try it if they want to have an opinion on the matter). Not everyone can be a winner at that level - logistically impossible. So let's not diminish their pursuit of excellence by those who accept that challenge; their courage to pursue their aspirations, even if they aren't big winners on the mat, is reason enough to heap some laurels on them, IMHO.
I think you can say this about wrestling at every level. Those that can make the cut do, those that don't wash out. The margin sometimes is razor thin and that has to be respected, but I don't think we need to sugar coat losing under the veil of courage. Success isn't easy, but failure shouldn't be acceptable. Some of these hometown kids were heavily recruited, given more scholarship money than others and with that comes high expectations. When those expectation are not lived up to, fans get a bit frustrated with the wrestler and the program itself. Reason along with facts of the situation are usually not given so we make assumptions about work ethic and commitment. I don't think it is fair for supposed insiders to tell fans that we are wrong and then not provide any more information when we question an athletes production. Should we just put our kool-aid glasses on and clap like monkeys regardless of performance and shout, "You are all winners!"
Heck why don't we just give out trophies to every division one athlete for just going out there and competing.
So, honoring graduating seniors on the team is strictly a BS proposition in your opinion unless they were "successful" on the mat (because failure is not acceptable)? You know, they honor those guys who stick it out for 4-5 year regardless of their success on the mat for a reason; there's more to the experience than just "success on the mat." Bucky has had a number of guys in recent memory that were the only guy the team had at a given weight and they showed up, week after week, taking their lumps both in practice and in meets in front of public audiences. I gotta tell you, that ain't fun. According to your explanation, their effort was "unacceptable." Their results were "unacceptable." It had nothing to do with courage but rather, they were simply "unacceptable."
I am not at all sure about each of their work ethic, but I can say without hesitation, I sure as heck wouldn't have stuck with it - but they did. That rates high on the character list to me (maybe not for you, though). So yeah, on senior day I will gladly sit in the stands and applaud like a monkey with kool-aide glasses on and yell, "You're a winner in my book, kid." Commitment and character are not defined by wins and losses...and commitment and character will take you a lot farther in life. Its not that a kid that is a winner on the mat can't also have commitment and character but rather, winning on the mat isn't a prerequisite for a person having the "right stuff."
Quote from: npope on February 24, 2015, 07:48:52 PM
Quote from: nutters55 on February 24, 2015, 05:55:14 PM
Quote from: npope on February 24, 2015, 12:00:33 PM
Hey - DI is tough (everyone should try it if they want to have an opinion on the matter). Not everyone can be a winner at that level - logistically impossible. So let's not diminish their pursuit of excellence by those who accept that challenge; their courage to pursue their aspirations, even if they aren't big winners on the mat, is reason enough to heap some laurels on them, IMHO.
I think you can say this about wrestling at every level. Those that can make the cut do, those that don't wash out. The margin sometimes is razor thin and that has to be respected, but I don't think we need to sugar coat losing under the veil of courage. Success isn't easy, but failure shouldn't be acceptable. Some of these hometown kids were heavily recruited, given more scholarship money than others and with that comes high expectations. When those expectation are not lived up to, fans get a bit frustrated with the wrestler and the program itself. Reason along with facts of the situation are usually not given so we make assumptions about work ethic and commitment. I don't think it is fair for supposed insiders to tell fans that we are wrong and then not provide any more information when we question an athletes production. Should we just put our kool-aid glasses on and clap like monkeys regardless of performance and shout, "You are all winners!"
Heck why don't we just give out trophies to every division one athlete for just going out there and competing.
So, honoring graduating seniors on the team is strictly a BS proposition in your opinion unless they were "successful" on the mat (because failure is not acceptable)? You know, they honor those guys who stick it out for 4-5 year regardless of their success on the mat for a reason; there's more to the experience than just "success on the mat." Bucky has had a number of guys in recent memory that were the only guy the team had at a given weight and they showed up, week after week, taking their lumps both in practice and in meets in front of public audiences. I gotta tell you, that ain't fun. According to your explanation, their effort was "unacceptable." Their results were "unacceptable." It had nothing to do with courage but rather, they were simply "unacceptable."
I am not at all sure about each of their work ethic, but I can say without hesitation, I sure as heck wouldn't have stuck with it - but they did. That rates high on the character list to me (maybe not for you, though). So yeah, on senior day I will gladly sit in the stands and applaud like a monkey with kool-aide glasses on and yell, "You're a winner in my book, kid." Commitment and character are not defined by wins and losses...and commitment and character will take you a lot farther in life. Its not that a kid that is a winner on the mat can't also have commitment and character but rather, winning on the mat isn't a prerequisite for a person having the "right stuff."
I admire athletes that stick with it. Your original post had nothing to do with senior day or whatever. A guy like Cavalaris has a lot to be proud of. He certainly isn't blessed with a lot of talent for division 1 wrestler but he steps out on the mat when the Badgers need him, but the catch is I am not talking about the try hard guys. I am talking about the athletes that have a righteous resume that's speaks to a glorious amount of talent that don't live up to expectations. I think as fan it is the unanswered questions about these athletes that bother me the most. If I owned a business I would hire a guy like Cavalaris in a heartbeat. I don't get concerned with the program when he loses a match, I am concerned when a top five recruit in the country can't win 10 matches as a 22 year old sophomore.
Quote from: nutters55 on February 24, 2015, 08:41:30 PM
I admire athletes that stick with it. Your original post had nothing to do with senior day or whatever. A guy like Cavalaris has a lot to be proud of. He certainly isn't blessed with a lot of talent for division 1 wrestler but he steps out on the mat when the Badgers need him, but the catch is I am not talking about the try hard guys. I am talking about the athletes that have a righteous resume that's speaks to a glorious amount of talent that don't live up to expectations. I think as fan it is the unanswered questions about these athletes that bother me the most. If I owned a business I would hire a guy like Cavalaris in a heartbeat. I don't get concerned with the program when he loses a match, I am concerned when a top five recruit in the country can't win 10 matches as a 22 year old sophomore.
And my original post had
everything to do with "whatever" - senior day was just an example of that "whatever." My post suggested that effort and commitment be honored over outcome and wins - the antithesis of this notion of "failure being unacceptable." Now, with some clarification, it becomes clear that you only meant that "failure is unacceptable" for specific athletes, those guys who come into the program and for whom we have high expectations (and evidently one athlete in particular) because you are selectively applying that standard of unacceptability.
If I understand your point correctly, for some guys, for whom we have lesser expectations, "failure
is acceptable." And for those guys we
can applaud for them as if we were monkeys wearing rose-colored glasses and feel good about it - it's okay to give all of the "try-hard" guys trophies because...well, we had no expectations of them. Our open disdain and disappointment is reserved for those young men whose win-loss results fail to meet our expectations (and likely their own, as well). Their journey, their commitment, has no merit - our assessment of them should be based solely on their wins and losses. Did I summarize the rules of application accurately?
Nutter, I honestly do understand your frustration with the lack of communication from the program. I too sometimes have a hard time taking a deep breath with the seeming opacity and deliberate misdirection that comes down the pipeline. And I think that does something to alienate some fans who would like to be closer to the program. That said, I don't think we have any kid on the team who is deserving of the label of a quitter and/or failure. Each kid is on his own journey and has his own demons and barriers to wrestle with - just because we don't know the details doesn't mean that it is fair to just assume that they aren't doing their best to hold up their end of the bargain.
Obviously Cavalaris, who took sixth place his senior year in high school in the small school division class in Illinois has
completely different expectations and scholarship money than what a four time state champion in Division I would have and
the coaching staff and the fans are fully aware of this. I personally thought Dieringer would be a four time national champion
after watching him win Fargo in such dominate fashion. Some guys have higher expectations for success and that is
why the top programs are recruiting Breske.
Quote from: npope on February 24, 2015, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: nutters55 on February 24, 2015, 08:41:30 PM
I admire athletes that stick with it. Your original post had nothing to do with senior day or whatever. A guy like Cavalaris has a lot to be proud of. He certainly isn't blessed with a lot of talent for division 1 wrestler but he steps out on the mat when the Badgers need him, but the catch is I am not talking about the try hard guys. I am talking about the athletes that have a righteous resume that's speaks to a glorious amount of talent that don't live up to expectations. I think as fan it is the unanswered questions about these athletes that bother me the most. If I owned a business I would hire a guy like Cavalaris in a heartbeat. I don't get concerned with the program when he loses a match, I am concerned when a top five recruit in the country can't win 10 matches as a 22 year old sophomore.
And my original post had everything to do with "whatever" - senior day was just an example of that "whatever." My post suggested that effort and commitment be honored over outcome and wins - the antithesis of this notion of "failure being unacceptable." Now, with some clarification, it becomes clear that you only meant that "failure is unacceptable" for specific athletes, those guys who come into the program and for whom we have high expectations (and evidently one athlete in particular) because you are selectively applying that standard of unacceptability.
If I understand your point correctly, for some guys, for whom we have lesser expectations, "failure is acceptable." And for those guys we can applaud for them as if we were monkeys wearing rose-colored glasses and feel good about it - it's okay to give all of the "try-hard" guys trophies because...well, we had no expectations of them. Our open disdain and disappointment is reserved for those young men whose win-loss results fail to meet our expectations (and likely their own, as well). Their journey, their commitment, has no merit - our assessment of them should be based solely on their wins and losses. Did I summarize the rules of application accurately?
I think you would do well to walk a mile in the shoes of some of those young men who commit untold hours to the arduous endeavor of being a DI athlete, regardless of their win-loss record. It might not be what you think it is.
If you went to college and worked really hard for 4 years but failed too many classes would you still be successful? If you were an attorney and worked really hard but continued to lose case after case would you still be successful? If you were a commanding general of our military and you studied and worked really hard on your battle plans but your soldiers kept dying and losing battles would you be successful?
These are men, young men but men. They all are learning valuable lessons about commitment, work ethic, and drive. I don't question what it takes to wrestle in college. In fact I think it take more commitment to wrestle at a division 3 college. Same dedication but even less exposure and glory than division 1. College athletes work hard in their sports and they make sacrifices. I was a college athlete for 5 years in multiple sports and it was tough to just balance my schedule with school, work, sports, and social. Luckily I didn't have to read or hear the frustration of fans on a day in and day out basis because that would suck, but it would also be an ego boost the other way when you do well.
You don't know me and I don't know you. You don't know my background with the sport and what I find important and don't. I celebrate winning and respect hard work and dedication. The last thing these men care about is my opinion, or why I am frustrated. I don't email Barry Davis or tweet at the athletes, I come to this forum to express my opinions because I am a fan. I am happy to discuss the Badgers and that's why I come on here to express my concerns and celebrate the successes.
Also, when did I say I accepted failure from anyone on this team? Again I voice respect for the dedication and effort of a certain wrestler and concern for another one and you are the one bringing up success and failure. I don't accept the fact the Badgers have to have Cavelaris go out there and wrestle in the first place, he just isn't talented enough to win matches at this level. The respect comes from the fact that he goes out there and competes and is ready and on point with his weight when he is called upon. That's really awesome and that type of will and dedication will serve him well in the future, unfortunately it doesn't equal success on the mat.
If Theilke stays with the Badgers until he graduates I will likely say the same about him, but I am concerned for his future as a Badger, and his production since he came to Wisconsin.
Quote from: billymurphy on February 25, 2015, 10:24:56 AM
Obviously Cavalaris, who took sixth place his senior year in high school in the small school division class in Illinois has
completely different expectations and scholarship money than what a four time state champion in Division I would have and
the coaching staff and the fans are fully aware of this. I personally thought Dieringer would be a four time national champion
after watching him win Fargo in such dominate fashion. Some guys have higher expectations for success and that is
why the top programs are recruiting Breske.
so you thought he would become.... the 4th in the history of the sport... to be a 4Xer based on a HS tournament? I thought he may have had 2 in him... but going to OkSt I also thought he may not even make the team, since all they recruit seem to be blue chip.
What was that score of the UW vs. Iowa State match again?..... ;)
Quote from: nutters55 on February 25, 2015, 10:42:32 AM
Also, when did I say I accepted failure from anyone on this team? Again I voice respect for the dedication and effort of a certain wrestler and concern for another one and you are the one bringing up success and failure. I don't accept the fact the Badgers have to have Cavelaris go out there and wrestle in the first place, he just isn't talented enough to win matches at this level. The respect comes from the fact that he goes out there and competes and is ready and on point with his weight when he is called upon. That's really awesome and that type of will and dedication will serve him well in the future, unfortunately it doesn't equal success on the mat.
You say "failure was unacceptable." You didn't say that that standard only applied to some guys and not others - you just made the statement. You seem to be measuring "failure" in terms of losses (e.g., a 22 year old with less than ten wins...). Yet there are other guys on the team with more losses, e.g,. Cavalaris, and yet you don't consider his performance to be "unacceptable" - quite the contrary - you think he has done great things in spite of his "failure" on the mat. You are the one who set up the metrics, not me. I am the one arguing that your metrics need to be reconsidered, which you are willing to do, so long as the guy's initials aren't JT.
I think your real issue is with the program and not the kids, but you started out by citing a kid as an example of "failure." And I don't think that's cool. Your opinion is more than welcomed here by me - I think that you have an opinion is good and interesting. But by expressing it I think you have to also accept the fact that others may stand up and disagree with you. I just don't think you enunciated your opinion very clearly and aimed it at the people you really wanted to aim it at. Take a shot at Barry and the program if you want, that's a different issues from calling out a specific young man who might be actually fighting to hang on to more than just his wrestling career - one that is really taking place outside the circle of a mat. I think you should cut him some slack unless you know the details - there might be more to the story. Go after Barry if you want a target - he gets paid for taking crap - JT doesn't.
I think there is an assumption that high school success guarantees college success . It does not!
Does anyone know the score of Jordans match before he got pinned?
Quote from: MAGMA on February 25, 2015, 02:32:19 PM
Does anyone know the score of Jordans match before he got pinned?
I believe it went , Jordan TD, escape Iowa st. 2nd period- escape Iowa st, throw of some sort and pin. So yes, Zeke was up.
Quote from: npope on February 25, 2015, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: nutters55 on February 25, 2015, 10:42:32 AM
Also, when did I say I accepted failure from anyone on this team? Again I voice respect for the dedication and effort of a certain wrestler and concern for another one and you are the one bringing up success and failure. I don't accept the fact the Badgers have to have Cavelaris go out there and wrestle in the first place, he just isn't talented enough to win matches at this level. The respect comes from the fact that he goes out there and competes and is ready and on point with his weight when he is called upon. That's really awesome and that type of will and dedication will serve him well in the future, unfortunately it doesn't equal success on the mat.
You say "failure was unacceptable." You didn't say that that standard only applied to some guys and not others - you just made the statement. You seem to be measuring "failure" in terms of losses (e.g., a 22 year old with less than ten wins...). Yet there are other guys on the team with more losses, e.g,. Cavalaris, and yet you don't consider his performance to be "unacceptable" - quite the contrary - you think he has done great things in spite of his "failure" on the mat. You are the one who set up the metrics, not me. I am the one arguing that your metrics need to be reconsidered, which you are willing to do, so long as the guy's initials aren't JT.
I think your real issue is with the program and not the kids, but you started out by citing a kid as an example of "failure." And I don't think that's cool. Your opinion is more than welcomed here by me - I think that you have an opinion is good and interesting. But by expressing it I think you have to also accept the fact that others may stand up and disagree with you. I just don't think you enunciated your opinion very clearly and aimed it at the people you really wanted to aim it at. Take a shot at Barry and the program if you want, that's a different issues from calling out a specific young man who might be actually fighting to hang on to more than just his wrestling career - one that is really taking place outside the circle of a mat. I think you should cut him some slack unless you know the details - there might be more to the story. Go after Barry if you want a target - he gets paid for taking crap - JT doesn't.
When am I attacking Theilke? I wish you would take the time and effort to digest others posts. Again you bring up assumptions when speaking of Theilke, no one knows anything about his personal life at least in regards to his performance on the mat, if you do and don't want to mention specifics then that's B.S. Don't bring it up then to try to excuse his performance on the mat! I am not being provided any info on his personal life so I have no explanation for his struggles on the mat this year and it is a concern of mine.
From my personal experience in dealing with Jesse he seems like a caring young man who spent time working with my son and several other young kids after he finished his own workout several years ago. I choose not to dig into athletes personal lives, my concerns are their performances on the mat! I certainly wish him the best and total health, but I clearly used Jesse as an example because he is one of the highest recruits to come to the University of Wisconsin from Wisconsin and the success hasn't translated, he wrestled better as a true freshman than he is as a redshirt sophomore. That is a concern!
I could act like many others and just right him off as a cancer, a party guy, or just plain lazy in the wrestling room but I have more respect for this young man than that. The program has invested a lot with Jesse. It is a concern with the athlete and the program! When Jesse cares to divulge information pertaining to his personal life and the effect of it on his wrestling then I will listen and have some type of understanding.
Also Cavalaris was a walk on that wasn't strongly recruited or if at all, and Jesse was the "cream of the crop". So you bet I can make a distinctions, I wonder why you cannot?
But I want to be clear! I haven't attacked anyone in this thread, I have expressed concern with the program and a particular athlete. I have not wavered from my stance or my opinion from the beginning. You either make it on the mat or you don't. I don't celebrate losing and I am not accepting losing. I respect the work ethic and commitment from most of these young men, but again I don't have the ability to hang around the wrestling room and see who is working and who is not. I can only presume that because they are wrestlers they are working to their limits. Each athlete has their own expectations and they have to ask themselves the tough question if they are doing the most they can to get the best out of themselves.
I did say failure is unacceptable and I should put on context that it is with the program, and Barry Davis. I would not say that about one of the student athletes. That would be a coaches decision.
This was posted on themat.com:
165 POUNDS
Moreno (ISU) vs. Jordan (UW) First Period
1:13 0-2, Takedown Jordan
0:59 1-2, Escape Moreno
Second Period
Jordan chooses down
1:11 1-2, Stall Warning Jordan 0:34 Fall Moreno
FINAL: Moreno Fall in 4:26 Iowa State 9, Wisconsin 4
It was a strangler-esque turn from the highlights I watched. It is a form of the turn that Fleming from Clarion and Massa from Michigan used. It is illegal to use if you go over the top of the head, but Moreno pulled him back with it when Zeke hit a stand-up. Looked pretty tight and Moreno settled in for the fall.
UW wrestling is a team sport that is highly limited by scholarship restrictions. As many say in wrestling, you have to earn it at every step. To me your production on the mat for the team has to be on par with your scholarship money. Hard decisions need to be made at the end of the year and that scholarship money has to be adjusted on a yearly basis. I don't know how they balance that with so many guys in the room and all at various talent levels and different stages of their wrestling careers.
With that said, any student-athlete that can stick with wrestling in college for 4-5 years has the highest honor in my mind no matter their success. That is the epitome of dedication and sacrifice.
Of course the unfair part of this is that only the non-revenue sports have to deal with this because the revenue sports get plenty of full-ride scholarships.
Thanks Hammen-the good thing is Zeke usually rebounds well after a loss. Hopefully this gets him primed for the Big 10s and Nationals.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 25, 2015, 03:49:42 PM
UW wrestling is a team sport that is highly limited by scholarship restrictions. As many say in wrestling, you have to earn it at every step. To me your production on the mat for the team has to be on par with your scholarship money. Hard decisions need to be made at the end of the year and that scholarship money has to be adjusted on a yearly basis. I don't know how they balance that with so many guys in the room and all at various talent levels and different stages of their wrestling careers.
With that said, any student-athlete that can stick with wrestling in college for 4-5 years has the highest honor in my mind no matter their success. That is the epitome of dedication and sacrifice.
Of course the unfair part of this is that only the non-revenue sports have to deal with this because the revenue sports get plenty of full-ride scholarships.
Agreed.
Quote from: nutters55 on February 25, 2015, 03:20:56 PM
I did say failure is unacceptable and I should put on context that it is with the program, and Barry Davis. I would not say that about one of the student athletes.
But you did say that about one of the student athletes. You have a very selective memory, nutter.
And you are loving up Cavalaris because....of his work ethic? The fact that he is more committed to the process than some of the others, such as JT? You single out JT just because he is 22 and has less than 10 wins and came in with high expectations. How do you know that he doesn't work twice as hard as Cav? Or are you loving up Cav just because you have no expectations for him? He gets a pass on accountability. That's kinda like giving everybody a trophy if you don't have expectations for them, isn't it? You say you don't know anything about what goes on in the room yet you would hire Cav in a minute - but JT's "failures are unacceptable." You've got a double standard that is hard to explain, nutty, I mean nutters ;)
Your beef with the program is something else - I half agree with you. Chew on Barry, you'll get less resistance from me.
"I don't get concerned with the program when he loses a match, I am concerned when a top five recruit in the country can't win 10 matches as a 22 year old sophomore."
Sorry Pope, you are misquoting me. Not once did I say his effort was unacceptable. Find it and I will apologize.
Also I think very highly of Jesse's talent as a wrestler and I fully expected him to win more matches at this level. He was so very dominant as a high school kid and has a good head on his shoulders, so I guess you can say that I am concerned when a wrestler of his talent isn't making the cut and could be on the verge of washing out of the program. I don't see why you or anyone sees the need to argue that, but you claim to have some secret insider info that the rest of us don't have.
Nobody has said Theilke is a cancer, or partier, or whatever label you want to affix. He's burned out, it's pretty Dang clear. It happens. Anyone with anything else to say other than that is delusional.
That is the first time that I heard that he is burned out.
If that is all it is then that means there is a chance he can
get the fire back.
Did Jesse say he was burned out?
Quote from: nutters55 on February 25, 2015, 09:08:35 PM
"I don't get concerned with the program when he loses a match, I am concerned when a top five recruit in the country can't win 10 matches as a 22 year old sophomore."
Sorry Pope, you are misquoting me. Not once did I say his effort was unacceptable. Find it and I will apologize.
Not looking for an apology nutter - your words speak for themselves. You have an opinion, and you are welcome to it. And I don't have secret information - what I know is very likely common knowledge by most close to the program...and they have enough sense to leave it alone on the forum.
Quote from: npope on February 26, 2015, 05:05:57 AM
Quote from: nutters55 on February 25, 2015, 09:08:35 PM
"I don't get concerned with the program when he loses a match, I am concerned when a top five recruit in the country can't win 10 matches as a 22 year old sophomore."
Sorry Pope, you are misquoting me. Not once did I say his effort was unacceptable. Find it and I will apologize.
Not looking for an apology nutter - your words speak for themselves. You have an opinion, and you are welcome to it. And I don't have secret information - what I know is very likely common knowledge by most close to the program...and they have enough sense to leave it alone on the forum.
So he's burned out?
Quote from: mkm13 on February 23, 2015, 06:28:27 AM
Below is a link to highlights that shows how Jordan, McCall, Cousins, and Thielke were pinned.
http://www.cyclones.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=10700&id=3742392
"That'll put some hair on your chest."