Northwestern 18 -- Wisconsin, 14

GradeTough · January 16, 2018, 01:09:30 PM

A new injection of excitement and goals of ascension to the upper tier will generate excitement for the program. Obviously, there appears to be a disconnect between the WI wrestling community and the Badger program.

bigG · January 16, 2018, 01:27:32 PM

Sure feels that way. I guess I don't have a metric to use from other states. J Rob, Brands, Cael all have endeared themselves to fans by wins and a unique style of wrestling. BD hasn't really branded a style, not has he won a ton. Time to step down, IMO.

Things sure have gotten ho-hum. Not saying Donny would have done any better. I'm saying Ben A would definitely be a change. IMHO, for the better.

Barou · January 16, 2018, 02:25:39 PM

I give major props to Goodale at Rutgers. I'm finally catching up with Big Ten Wrestling on my DVR and Rutgers has a great thing going. Watching matches with their duals against Ohio State and North Carolina you can see the excitement. They have created an exciting culture and their duals are events. Great fan base, wicked cool stuff like a smoke machine, a program pointing up, they are doing fantastic. Barry is light years behind Goodale on managing and bringing the excitement to a program.

bigG · January 16, 2018, 03:06:04 PM

Goodale has done a bang up job. Possibly the rebuilding "coach of the year." Then again, when a head coach does well like that, I find it is usually due to the efforts of the asst. coach.

jeast · January 16, 2018, 03:17:25 PM

Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 16, 2018, 09:49:56 AM
Quote from: jeast on January 16, 2018, 08:40:51 AM
JapWhiz, you certainly capture the essence of the problem. I guess for me, it isn't about being aggressive, it's more about wrestling to win, vs. wrestling not to lose. That's really hard to quantify, but ultimately it is something you and I and everyone else sees consistently from the Badger wrestling program.

Well, I guess we're even on that front because you've captured the essence of what infuriates me on the topic. "Wrestling to win, vs. wrestling to not lose."

Let's take Christensen, as an example. Tied 1-1 versus a guy he lost badly to, recently. He ends up taking a stalling point that costs him the match. Do we think, in that moment, Ryan was thinking, "If I don't shoot, this match will just never end and I'll never lose"? No. He probably thought, "None of my offense is working. I don't see the opening I need to take a successful shot. Taking a bad shot is giving up the match. I'll keep angling, and hopefully a better opportunity arises. If this goes to double OT, my #1 strength is riding."

If he had taken a shot, gotten sprawled on, and ultimately lost that way, would Northwestern have gotten less team points?

Ultimately, I think we want our wrestlers to be more skilled, which leads to more successful offense, not just more "aggressive".

But there is the crux of the matter, a college level wrestler should NEVER lose by a stall call in a close match. Yeah, he thought "my offense isn't working, so I'll stall and see if the point doesn't hurt me?" Honestly, you're making an excuse for mediocrity. Yeah, good wrestlers wrestle bettermoreaggressivenottolose...and bad wrestlers wrestlestalllessaggressivetolose...not buying it.
We all like to watch kids wrestle and get after it and sometimes, a wrestler needs to keep it close and give themselves a chance to win, but taking a stall call in a close match isn't conducive to winning. Its an excuse to lose. "Gee, if only the ref hadn't screwed me with that call".
Time for a change at the top, like BigG says, ho-hum. That's what I see at the Big 10 tourney and in most duals. Ho hum. I would have loved to see Ryan take that shot and miss it...rather than take a stall call and lose that way.

wrastle63 · January 17, 2018, 08:34:43 AM

Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 17, 2018, 08:31:54 AM
Quote from: jeast on January 16, 2018, 03:17:25 PM
Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 16, 2018, 09:49:56 AM
Quote from: jeast on January 16, 2018, 08:40:51 AM
JapWhiz, you certainly capture the essence of the problem. I guess for me, it isn't about being aggressive, it's more about wrestling to win, vs. wrestling not to lose. That's really hard to quantify, but ultimately it is something you and I and everyone else sees consistently from the Badger wrestling program.

Well, I guess we're even on that front because you've captured the essence of what infuriates me on the topic. "Wrestling to win, vs. wrestling to not lose."

Let's take Christensen, as an example. Tied 1-1 versus a guy he lost badly to, recently. He ends up taking a stalling point that costs him the match. Do we think, in that moment, Ryan was thinking, "If I don't shoot, this match will just never end and I'll never lose"? No. He probably thought, "None of my offense is working. I don't see the opening I need to take a successful shot. Taking a bad shot is giving up the match. I'll keep angling, and hopefully a better opportunity arises. If this goes to double OT, my #1 strength is riding."

If he had taken a shot, gotten sprawled on, and ultimately lost that way, would Northwestern have gotten less team points?

Ultimately, I think we want our wrestlers to be more skilled, which leads to more successful offense, not just more "aggressive".

But there is the crux of the matter, a college level wrestler should NEVER lose by a stall call in a close match. Yeah, he thought "my offense isn't working, so I'll stall and see if the point doesn't hurt me?" Honestly, you're making an excuse for mediocrity. Yeah, good wrestlers wrestle bettermoreaggressivenottolose...and bad wrestlers wrestlestalllessaggressivetolose...not buying it.
We all like to watch kids wrestle and get after it and sometimes, a wrestler needs to keep it close and give themselves a chance to win, but taking a stall call in a close match isn't conducive to winning. Its an excuse to lose. "Gee, if only the ref hadn't screwed me with that call".
Time for a change at the top, like BigG says, ho-hum. That's what I see at the Big 10 tourney and in most duals. Ho hum. I would have loved to see Ryan take that shot and miss it...rather than take a stall call and lose that way.

I still think every time someone says "I want my wrestlers to be more aggressive," what they're really saying is "I want my wrestlers to be better." That's it. If not, let's just make a quick list of the aggressive wrestlers who aren't simultaneously good wrestlers. Who are the guys who are aggressive, despite a talent disparity, that we like?

Johnny is pretty aggressive. Are we happy he went out there and got tech-falled, being aggressive?

I wouldn't say he is aggressive. On top he stalls a lot and just does mat returns. He got teched because he got turned for 4 multiple times.

wrastle63 · January 17, 2018, 11:02:30 AM

Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 17, 2018, 08:36:32 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on January 17, 2018, 08:34:43 AM

I wouldn't say he is aggressive. On top he stalls a lot and just does mat returns. He got teched because he got turned for 4 multiple times.

Didn't just lay there and take a stall though!

If not him, who? Who are the aggressive wrestlers, who aren't also the best wrestlers? Who has the mind-set we apparently all want, without the skill?

Lantz is someone who I think is aggressive and looking to score even if he isn't the best wrestler. I feel like some of the guys just go out there to keep it close.

dad 2 5 · January 17, 2018, 05:25:43 PM

Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 17, 2018, 08:23:52 AM
Quote from: dad 2 5 on January 15, 2018, 04:05:39 PM
Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 15, 2018, 11:31:08 AM

I'm bummed that Jimenez has, best-case, plateaued and worst-case, gotten worse, but let's call a spade a spade. This happens all the time in wrestling to seniors. Unless you're really new here, you watched Zeke Jordan peter out his senior year. You first noticed it when he stopped pulling bonus points wrestling unranked wrestlers, and ultimately, it ended with a fall out of the Top 3 at the NCAA tournament.

I find it a little interesting that you name Zeke Jordan and his senior finish. He is one of the all-time greats for the UW and the injury he fought through his senior must have been missed by some. I do again JJ is not producing the way I thought he would and this year is not at all what I hoped for. Too completely different guy and circumstance.

So, it's your contention that he was able to wrestle, able to go 28-6, but he was just slightly less effective, due to an injury that spanned the whole season?

Correct, Zeke was injured and really needed his body to heal. There were several of those wins his senior year that he was just hanging on because he know how much his body could handle. I lot of guys would have been lucky to get to .600. He is am impressive young man on and off the mat!

empty99 · January 17, 2018, 09:14:27 PM

I so wish that there was something to talk about with Badger Wrestling. I can't even get mad anymore. Donny, Troy S, Ben A. The next crop of Olympians, and world team members. Somebody relevant please take over so I can care again. Also, we need a small guy coach to have good small guys, duh

Harris · January 17, 2018, 09:18:00 PM

Quote from: dad 2 5 on January 17, 2018, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 17, 2018, 08:23:52 AM
Quote from: dad 2 5 on January 15, 2018, 04:05:39 PM
Quote from: Japanese Whizzer on January 15, 2018, 11:31:08 AM

I'm bummed that Jimenez has, best-case, plateaued and worst-case, gotten worse, but let's call a spade a spade. This happens all the time in wrestling to seniors. Unless you're really new here, you watched Zeke Jordan peter out his senior year. You first noticed it when he stopped pulling bonus points wrestling unranked wrestlers, and ultimately, it ended with a fall out of the Top 3 at the NCAA tournament.

I find it a little interesting that you name Zeke Jordan and his senior finish. He is one of the all-time greats for the UW and the injury he fought through his senior must have been missed by some. I do again JJ is not producing the way I thought he would and this year is not at all what I hoped for. Too completely different guy and circumstance.

So, it's your contention that he was able to wrestle, able to go 28-6, but he was just slightly less effective, due to an injury that spanned the whole season?

Correct, Zeke was injured and really needed his body to heal. There were several of those wins his senior year that he was just hanging on because he know how much his body could handle. I lot of guys would have been lucky to get to .600. He is am impressive young man on and off the mat!

His wrestling changed after he smacked heads mid season and he could barely finish that match from what I remember. Great wrestler and greater person!

Winston · January 19, 2018, 09:55:52 AM

Quote from: bigG on January 16, 2018, 01:27:32 PM
Sure feels that way. I guess I don't have a metric to use from other states. J Rob, Brands, Cael all have endeared themselves to fans by wins and a unique style of wrestling. BD hasn't really branded a style, not has he won a ton. Time to step down, IMO.

Things sure have gotten ho-hum. Not saying Donny would have done any better. I'm saying Ben A would definitely be a change. IMHO, for the better.

I lobbied for Askren years ago....Lol at some fans still pining for St. Donny. Didn't he get run out of MI? The guy has a history of wearing out his welcome.

bigG · January 19, 2018, 10:03:59 AM

Run out!? They have erected St. Donny shrines upon his leaving, as he single handedly turned that program into what it is today. Though they failed to offer him an improvement in pay/position, he changed their world.

Winston · January 19, 2018, 10:27:37 AM

Quote from: bigG on January 19, 2018, 10:03:59 AM
Run out!? They have erected St. Donny shrines upon his leaving, as he single handedly turned that program into what it is today. Though they failed to offer him an improvement in pay/position, he changed their world.

The kid could recruit, there is no denying that. It's still mind boggling how that whole situation played out. In the end it came down to BD's bungling of the situation, and Barry Alverez's ignorance of St. Donny's importance....The "dingle Barry's" have set the program back years.

bigG · January 19, 2018, 10:48:21 AM

I dunno. He's had some big recruits get lost on him. I'm an Askren man, personally. Just think Ben would be better at the whole head coaching pantheon.

Winston · January 19, 2018, 10:50:04 AM

Quote from: bigG on January 19, 2018, 10:48:21 AM
I dunno. He's had some big recruits get lost on him. I'm an Askren man, personally. Just think Ben would be better at the whole head coaching pantheon.

Would have been better a couple of years back when Askrens national popularity was at it's height. He is, and has been my #1 choice for years.