Time to Revamp Student Testing

[imnofish]

All points taken guys.

LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several  times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.

Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.

I wonder if the  educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.

All of that is going on.  It's not that people are against testing; it's just that it's being overdone.  Frequent testing has become epidemic, as short-term micromanagement of teaching and learning has become the norm.  Lots of instructional time lost that could ultimately benefit the big, long-range  picture.

Fish, I agree with you on everything you just said.

+1   

[ramjet]

I do not I think the biggest opposition by some of you is you do not like the accountability it's similar to opposition to open classrooms in that "how dare a common person come and tell me what I a doing right or wrong" that's poor attitude in that we have things to learn and should be open again not one of you retired professionals have suggested or even hinted at what can work for to see if the efforts and time is getting any results. Perhaps we should just wait 4 years after some graduates to see if any of it stucK?

So I guess you converted BO but I will not be so easy I think measure of success is imperative in ANY job and if the educators and professionals cannot come up with reasonable common sense approach then testing it will be.

By the way would any of your say taking a test in itself is in fact a form of educating?

Funny if a diffcult student is not retaining then it's the kids/parents fault or the upbringing or any of several excuses but if another student is at the top of the heap and is incredibly successful then the Teachers stand up and say it all about them............I feel especially on this site where many of you are in education rarely see or emit thier are substandard performers and methods yet you say that we should all,give you untethered trust and not question or even ask about how why and what are you accomplishing. That amounts to the type or arrogance that got people like SW elected and I would rather see some open minds and ears and eyes and look for improvement and strive for excellence and how in the heck do you tell if you are making any? Because you say so? Come on that is just irresponsible. I think it is along the same lines as a trophy for everyone no matter what they do just as long as they are there........

I also would like to know if you oppose College Entrance exams and standards?

[imnofish]

I do not I think the biggest opposition by some of you is you do not like the accountability it's similar to opposition to open classrooms in that "how dare a common person come and tell me what I a doing right or wrong" that's poor attitude in that we have things to learn and should be open again not one of you retired professionals have suggested or even hinted at what can work for to see if the efforts and time is getting any results. Perhaps we should just wait 4 years after some graduates to see if any of it stucK?

So I guess you converted BO but I will not be so easy I think measure of success is imperative in ANY job and if the educators and professionals cannot come up with reasonable common sense approach then testing it will be.

By the way would anynofmyour say taking a test in itself is in fact a form of educating?

I certainly don't see a problem with anyone being accountable.  I welcomed the ongoing evaluation and feedback that I received from my supervisors during my career.  I also enjoyed the other side of that coin, after administration appointed me as a mentor to young teachers (as well as some veteran teachers who needed improvement) and while I was a perennial leader of a team of teachers in professional and curriculum development.  I also led the formulation, adoption, and implementation of a unique, research-based, school discipline program that significantly improved school culture, learning environments, teacher effectiveness, and student performance.  Remember, when you hear from me on this topic, you are dealing with someone with a strong background in teaching, School Administration/Educational Leadership, and Curriculum Development, so my perspective is much broader than you apparently think.  Unfortunately, accountability has been redefined in a way that is counterproductive to best educational practices.  Having the background to recognize that and recommend better alternatives does not make me an apologist for teachers. 

[ramjet]

That's a heck of resume Fish and admirable. But if a young man scores low in particular topic and you can provide intervention to helpmeet that subject up tomorrow I have hard time seeing that as bad thing. These are the things that these tests do they do not allow students to fall through the cracks they identify those with issues that Amy not otherwise be identified. Worse scenario is that you do not test and that person gets by so speak and come time for College entrance exams falls on thier face. Not good when they may be 6 months from leaving high school. Better to identify and take action to improve years in advance of that scenario. You know as well as I without standards certain teachers use thier style and that style frankly may fall short of real world needs and requirements for success in college and beyond.

I do apologize I was not trying to make this personal please do no take anything onnthisntopic as directed towards you personally, but this is a frustrating topic for me in that it seems that some educators do not want or accept accountability and they just Echo that of which they read in the monthly publications or websites. It als leads me to think they have something to hide.

[bigoil]

Ram,

I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.

He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.

He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.

I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.

[littleguy301]

All points taken guys.

LG what you describe as potential tough scenarios in A District are something most Districts need to overcome and an average is taking that into account. So with that said then it's good for that District to know how they compare those stats are available. Heck as Parent you may be very interested how the school you're child attending is doing compared to the average. MAP testing several  times is to try and average out those extrodinaire circumstances.

Fish in the end the test on the mat during a dual meet or weekend tournament is where the program, the coach , and the wrestler are judged. Testing during practice is the classroom nothing wrong with practice tests that is a methodology choosen by the teacher/coach to improve test scores. If it works then fantastic if it does not adjustments need to be made.

I wonder if the  educators should collaborate more on methods and ideas to improve rather than getting rid of the tool used to measure.

I do want to know and yes I compare my school against schools from all over the state, schools in my conference, like sized schools and school that are much bigger and smaller.

I usually take a school around my size and have in the ball park same situations as my school,,,,as in town size, tax base, class size and such. That is were I do my compare as rating against like oppents if you would like to say. I do not on my hard line compare try to compare a school of the same size from lets say the Milwaukee area to my area. Completly different in all areas so hard to do a fair compare from top to bottom. Apples to oranges is a better way of saying it.

It would be like if I was a 45 pounder and looking to get to state my senior year, I would look at the classes a weight up and a weight down from me to see what the route would be. If I did make it to state then I would compare against other regions. I would NOT be looking at weight classes 3 up from me or 3 down from me because that would not be a good compare because I aint getting that big or that small.

[littleguy301]

I just dont like the idea that testing is a way to judge students and teachers at their education or jobs.

Sure there has to be a way to hold teacher accountable but comparing students as products is not the route I would like to take. Sure if testing is the only way to show a students progress, I guess that is what sine may have to do but I would rather have a educator that actually cares about my child more than a widget. My child breaths, eats, smiles and show personality most widgets do not.

Sure I get how schools are run like business but when it comes down to the students, human touch is still in my mind the best way.

[imnofish]

That's a heck of resume Fish and admirable. But if a young man scores low in particular topic and you can provide intervention to helpmeet that subject up tomorrow I have hard time seeing that as bad thing. These are the things that these tests do they do not allow students to fall through the cracks they identify those with issues that Amy not otherwise be identified. Worse scenario is that you do not test and that person gets by so speak and come time for College entrance exams falls on thier face. Not good when they may be 6 months from leaving high school. Better to identify and take action to improve years in advance of that scenario. You know as well as I without standards certain teachers use thier style and that style frankly may fall short of real world needs and requirements for success in college and beyond.

I do apologize I was not trying to make this personal please do no take anything onnthisntopic as directed towards you personally, but this is a frustrating topic for me in that it seems that some educators do not want or accept accountability and they just Echo that of which they read in the monthly publications or websites. It als leads me to think they have something to hide.

I didn't take it personally.  I just wanted you to understand my frame of reference.  I really don't see this as a situation in which teachers have something to hide.  I see this as a situation in which an entire profession has been put under so much pressure that it's unbearable.  They are in the trenches every day and see what's going on, what works, and what doesn't work.  I respect their opinions, because they are living it; the rest of the public simply does not have their frame of reference, but echos what they read in their own publications or websites.  It's darn scary to find yourself under fire every day, while you are honestly doing the best you can for kids, knowing that the preferred methodology and standards will continue to change at the drop of a hat...  at the whim of people who know less about your job than you do.  The popular, but misguided, narrative that they are incompetent invites the incorrect assumption that they have something to hide, IMO.  Like I said, I'm not against testing, but I'm against how it's being misused today.  The biggest losers in all this will ultimately be the students, which adds tremendous frustration and stress to their teachers' lives.  Teachers are very emotionally vested in the welfare of their students and they are notorious for fighting on their behalf.  We are missing the boat, if we mistake that resistance for an attempt to "hide something." 

[Handles II]

Ram,

I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.

He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.

He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.

I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.

The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.

Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation.  Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test"). 
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.

[ramjet]

HandlesII you continue to espouse what I think and you are as usual ........ WRONG.........The idea of accountability and data gathered from testing is to identify areas where improvement is needed and it helps it certainly is only one piece of the puzzle. Collaboration is an excellent way to assure the consitent application of teaching subjects so that from class's to class and styles have some semblance of consistency. Testing data is a good start to get educators to work together and collaborate on subject matter and identify methods that work with a wide variety of students and groups. Testing can identify problem areas and short comings of methodology and subject matter. Data can initiate Acedemic intervention and get help for these students and classes that are faultering. The earlier the better. It also shows and identifies those methods and educators that are using methods and subject matter that show success and heck that's great thing.

And if a teacher cannot get the job done and is and has been given opportunity to fix the issues does not then maybe education is not for them.

See HandlesII with the above post you proved me right certain Teachers that are closed minded take any and all input as criticism and I should mind my own business ...right? If you are that person NLC you can look in th mirror and say for sure. In my District I know two Teachers with that attirute but it is only those two the rest are fantastic Proffessional open minded hard working educators.

[DrSnide]

Ram,

I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.

He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.

He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.

I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.

The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.

Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation.  Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test"). 
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.

Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya.  You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.

Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly  what is happening.

Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year.  Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized.  Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized.  I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days?  My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc. 

Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty.  I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.

Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized.  Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments.   Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized.  Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this.  You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty.  etc, etc.

So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent.  It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?

[Handles II]

First ramjet, I'm not wrong.
I'm fine with testing. I give tests. I meet standards and work to get my kids to meet standards. I collaborate, my teaching and work is reviewed by peers and administration. I believe even standardized testing can have some value, but not in the way they are currently implemented and the "power" that gives some to judge schools, teachers, students.

Snide,
You are talking about an entirely different situation and yet one that I do not agree with. I understand that they types of penalties you are speaking of are, like punishing teachers, a very bad way to help or "fix" health care.
Let's backtrack and look at a dentist as that example. Are they punished, are dental offices shut down, if patients come in with cavities?

[ramjet]

HandlesII

What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?

[littleguy301]

Ram,

I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.

He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.

He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.

I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.

The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.

Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation.  Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test"). 
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.

Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya.  You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.

Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly  what is happening.

Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year.  Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized.  Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized.  I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days?  My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc. 

Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty.  I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.

Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized.  Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments.   Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized.  Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this.  You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty.  etc, etc.

So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent.  It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?

Well DR, sounds like you aint liking this one bit either.

DR,,,there is already things in place against educators so............

DR,,,,,how many DR are there to teachers, is there is many DR out there?

[bigG]

HandlesII

What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?

I just find it odd that you're fine with voucher schools that have no required testing but you want "accountability" in public schools.

I'm not against testing; but as I'm sure you know this is much more about money than kids. I wish ACT/Pearson and College Board were traded publicly.