Article below meant to be silly because the Oklahoma St heavyweight wore his singlet on backwards. Read the comments to see what society thinks and says about the wrestling uniform. It is about what I expected with juvenile comments but this is what keeps kids from wrestling and what keeps parents (mostly moms) from allowing their kids to wrestle.
Just think their needs to be an option in high school wrestling.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/the-turnstile/oklahoma-state-wrestler-takes-mat-wearing-backwards-uniform-133406272.html?fb_action_ids=592093974134294&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%22592093974134294%22%3A278367485631525%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22592093974134294%22%3A%22news.reads%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
Haha you really think the people commenting would join wrestling if there was a different uniform?
Now that is comical.
I agree Doc. Easy for the hard-core wrestlers to say the singlet doesn't matter, because to them it doesn't. But for too many kids today it does.
Hammen, you are right, the people commenting wouldn't wrestle. But their comments are the reality of a ton of people reading the sports page, whether you agree with them or not. Hard to sell a kid on wrestling when the sport either gets no publicity at all....or when it actually does, the singlet is the first thing people joke about. Hear it all the time, even from adults who otherwise worry about being "politically correct" about everything else they say. That is the reality outside of the wrestling world that most of us live in.
I know this is irritating to traditionalists, but I also think fight shorts and an Under Armor type shirt would bring more kids to the sport. Every sport has evolved in their unifoms and gear. Football players dont wear leather helmets any longer, baseball player can opt to wear longer pants, basketball no longer has short shorts. How about a singlet with fight shorts over it? It wouldn't hurt the sport in any way, and likely would take away one of the reasons some kids will not even consider the sport.
Have you read Yahoo comments before? The majority of them are perverted or mean in most articles.
Any one else pleasantly surprised at how few homophobic comments were on the YouTube video link posted on here about saving Olympic Wrestling? Internet commentators can be really mean at times, especially YouTube. (But not at wiwrestling.com, we all get along great, right???)
177,000+ views and very little negativity. That was great to see.
I don't believe that there is a huge group of kids that want to wrestle but don't because they will wear a singlet. Personally I think the cut of the singlet is fine however switching to the new shear fabrics was not a positive. Modernizing the uniform is part of the issue. I think we should keep the singlet and go back to the thicker stiffer fabric choices that did not show the junk as well.
Kyle
Just had a discussion with a parent literally worried about their two year old was very small compared to others his age and worried he will get picked on if he is going to always be the small kid. This parent was just talking and was not really concerned but deep down worried.
Conversation went like this;
Parent- "I am going to have to get him in something (to defend himself and for confidence)"
Me- "Wrestling would be the perfect sport for him"
Parent- "Yea thats all he needs, getting picked on for being small and the getting picked on for wearing tights"
This is the perception wrestling faces from so many that have no clue about wrestling. Wrestling needs a PR department to improve its image. heck my wife and girls were grossed out the little bit they watched the NCAA tourney because I was watching it due to the "obvious junk" between the legs, to the bruised and battered faces, to the cauliflower ears. As promoters of wrestling we have to open up our eyes and ears to hear what other are saying and there is no better time as the media continues to cover wrestling's fight for the Olympics which ultimately comes across as wrestling is such a great sport. There are too many parent out there now that acknowledge the wrestlers are tougher and work harder than anyone else but they would not want their son or daughter competing in the sport. Football is battling this now with concussions but what other sport has those limitations
QuoteThis is the perception wrestling faces from so many that have no clue about wrestling. Wrestling needs a PR department to improve its image. heck my wife and girls were grossed out the little bit they watched the NCAA tourney because I was watching it due to the "obvious junk" between the legs, to the bruised and battered faces, to the cauliflower ears. As promoters of wrestling we have to open up our eyes and ears to hear what other are saying and there is no better time as the media continues to cover wrestling's fight for the Olympics which ultimately comes across as wrestling is such a great sport. There are too many parent out there now that acknowledge the wrestlers are tougher and work harder than anyone else but they would not want their son or daughter competing in the sport. Football is battling this now with concussions but what other sport has those limitations
You think board shorts will change all this? ::)
Who will pay for the PR department?
You are and every parent and program has PR department it is the parents coaches and wrestlers. Extended family. Want good example Nowak boys from Edgar they can fill and entire Gym with family the extended family, there fans and family support them and wrestling. That breeds interest and success.
I try and invite every family member within driving distance to my sons events once they get there they love it and have fun watching. That might be good place to start if 14 kids did that the gym would be filled
The successful programs out there have this why does your program lack this? Not picking on you but I ask this question as well and have found answers to that question. Success fills the gym. Another example our High School vollyball rarely filled the sections of bleachers and then they were undefeated and doing really well the gym slowly but surely filled up and by sectionals the number of people attending those matches were quadrupled. I for one enjoyed it so much next year I fully intend to go to more matches and watch.
Success breeds participation plain and simple.
Doc you're so stuck on this uniform thing you ignoring the rest of the issues.
Nobody cares if you offer a choice (most everyone agrees even me) it is no big deal, but you get the WIAA to go along with that then get back to us.
That is the difference between men and women, I watch women's beach volleyball because of the uniform. ;D
Quote from: ecnorth on March 23, 2013, 07:19:03 PM
I agree Doc. Easy for the hard-core wrestlers to say the singlet doesn't matter, because to them it doesn't. But for too many kids today it does.
Hammen, you are right, the people commenting wouldn't wrestle. But their comments are the reality of a ton of people reading the sports page, whether you agree with them or not. Hard to sell a kid on wrestling when the sport either gets no publicity at all....or when it actually does, the singlet is the first thing people joke about. Hear it all the time, even from adults who otherwise worry about being "politically correct" about everything else they say. That is the reality outside of the wrestling world that most of us live in.
My nephew who was a 280 pound man child as a freshman would have been an outstanding wrestler and he was a decent football player. I tried to get him to wrestle and took him to tournaments. I almost had him and then of course his peers started ragging on him about the singlet. He never went out. He's 20 now and tells me he wished he would have gone out but the friends were a stronger influence. I think going to the Under Armor 2 piece makes sense and would get more youth out for the sport.
Quote from: Mat Warrior on March 25, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
Have you read Yahoo comments before? The majority of them are perverted or mean in most articles.
Have you ever been in a middle school boys locker room or school for that matter? Not much different.
Perhaps the singlet does create an obstacle getting some kids out for wrestling. However, I also think it provides a convenient excuse for
those that wouldn't go out no matter what type of uniform was used.
What do the studies say about swimming and boys/mens gymnastics? Do those sports have the same issue?
I am not stuck on the singlet but it is one easy change with an option.
I agree the singlet is often an excuse for some athletes but it also a legit excuse for some. My bigger point is about the parents enrolling kids in wrestling. So many parents use the same excuses and the kids never get a chance at least when it is youth wrestling. I suppose in middle school the athlete could make the choice.
Doc go to the WIAA email them see what they say? An option seems viable but I doubt highly if it will have any immediate impact on participation. But heck go for it.
The WIAA has approved the Under Armor shirt and board short for middle school. School have had to option for a few years now.The NFHS would have to approve that uniform for the WIAA to allow it for high school.
wow little do we know. Then Jr High numbers should be increasing?
Why do you always feel the need to chime in on this? We get it - you disagree.
Move on. We can do without your snide condescension everytime this topic gets mentioned.
Quote from: ramjet on March 27, 2013, 04:16:37 PM
wow little do we know. Then Jr High numbers should be increasing?
Maybe they're not aware either. You know, even if it doesn't affect numbers what is the big deal if they evolve and go to UA for unis?
I was not a wrestler growing up but became a fan in high school and then more serious in college when my friends were on the team. I think the uniform discussions are viable...I have no doubt it may keep some from joining the sport.
On a related note, I was talking to some at youth regionals that said the K-2 group was booming in youth wrestling with numbers significantly, as much as 50-100% bigger year on year in some tournaments...I suspect there is an age of maximum self-awareness or concern about public perception...probably late grade school to middle school I am guessing.
I remember the Cheesehead duals uniform a few years back, it was a 2-piece and it was coveted...
Quote from: ramjet on March 27, 2013, 04:16:37 PM
wow little do we know. Then Jr High numbers should be increasing?
Oh Ramjet! You chimed in a million times in the last thread and the discussion was much about Kaukauna wearing two piece uniforms for middle school. And I am sorry you did not know that high school follows the national federation with only minor WIAA adaptations.
Now you either did not bother to read what others were writing or you conveniently forgot to make your snide comment about middle school numbers.
I will just always picture you sitting at your computer wearing your singlet reliving the old days after you went to work with your singlet on under your clothes ;D Sorry but you bring me great humor as a debater because you just rip on others and that is not a discussion/debating technique I am aware of.
Ramjet you are right the numbers did go up this year in Kaukauna. It was our first year with the two piece uniform. I hope others follow suit.
Well interesting that whatever and Doc neither knew that jr high can wear an alternative uniform but still persist on thinking it is the reason kids will not wrestle. Maybe some but that is not the fundamental reasons just maybe one reason for those who are looking for an excuse.
Wrestling is tough demanding sport. It takes allot of hard work and commitment and is physically demanding many kids are just to soft to do it. Many parents worry about little johnny getting hurt and having to work so hard. So get off your high horse this topic has been posted and polls that all favored the singlet put up many times. The majority of the people here agree with the singlet but many could care less of it was an option.
The first time one kid gets his fingers caught up into the loose material of the board shorts and comes off with a dislocated finger it will be you Doc screaming bloody murder about how unsafe those uniforms are. Or how this kid lost this match because the kid "grabbed the shorts" to turn him.
Too bad I disagree whatever the singlet was developed for good reason. Practical reasons and whatever too bad I have an opinion you have your opinion I have mine because mine does not agree with your I should not post? WRONG
Now I will go out on limb here I bet the Kaukauna coaches are doing more than just changing to board short to get good participation. Just a guess though. That program has had some really good team success and success breeds success. But heck maybe it is just the board shorts.
Quote from: ramjet on March 28, 2013, 09:28:45 AM
The first time one kid gets his fingers caught up into the loose material of the board shorts and comes off with a dislocated finger it will be you Doc screaming bloody murder about how unsafe those uniforms are. Or how this kid lost this match because the kid "grabbed the shorts" to turn him.
Because a forum is for tossing out ideas (and I have tossed out some crazy ones) and discussing and debating I will continue with your position that 2-piece uniforms could lead to injuries which has been brought up by others.
If this was truly true or a major concern (I am not saying it cannot happen), why would any coach risk allowing their athletes where shorts and a T-shirt in practice? Is every coach risking injuries in practice because they don't require singlets in practice? Are coaches negligent for not requiring singlets in practice. Think of the hours of practice time where nothing occurs but it is going to happen in matches which is probably 1% of the overall wrestling time for an athlete in a season
I have been part of many live goes that were all out training battles where we had on sweatshirts, sweat suits, sweat pants, stocking hats, etc and never saw an injury. They could happen but risk is very minimal. How many fingers get caught up in clothing in soccer, football, basketball?
Doc the only issue I have with your uniform suggestion is this and again I could care less if everyone wears them or you could offer them.
My issue is this: The singlet is not the major reason for drop in participation in wrestling it may one of the excuses for not trying however the reasons for a lack of participation as I see them are as follows;
1.) It is a tough demanding sport where a kid of lessor talent can get the crap beat out of him or her. Demanding in diet and physically demanding from training stand point. It takes a ton of commitment from parents and the athlete.
2.) Kids now specialize in sports and concentrate on one sport as opposed to participating in several so when they make the choice it is not always wrestling.
3.) To go along with the above there are more offering to lighter athletes such as Cross Country Track or soccer where they can have some success and not get beat up.
4.) Lower fan following want good example look at the recent announcement from IOC.
5.) Lower enrollment numbers this effects D3 more than D2 and D1.
6.) Parents..........they do not want to see little johnny get pounded on for 3 periods by tough well conditioned an trained athlete. They would rather they get participation medal in soccer. We have become a "everyone gets medal society". Its tough at the youth level level is there any other sport where kids come off the field (mat) of play crying?
Quote from: ramjet on March 28, 2013, 09:28:45 AM
Well interesting that whatever and Doc neither knew that jr high can wear an alternative uniform but still persist on thinking it is the reason kids will not wrestle. Maybe some but that is not the fundamental reasons just maybe one reason for those who are looking for an excuse.
Wrestling is tough demanding sport. It takes allot of hard work and commitment and is physically demanding many kids are just to soft to do it. Many parents worry about little johnny getting hurt and having to work so hard. So get off your high horse this topic has been posted and polls that all favored the singlet put up many times. The majority of the people here agree with the singlet but many could care less of it was an option.
The first time one kid gets his fingers caught up into the loose material of the board shorts and comes off with a dislocated finger it will be you Doc screaming bloody murder about how unsafe those uniforms are. Or how this kid lost this match because the kid "grabbed the shorts" to turn him.
Too bad I disagree whatever the singlet was developed for good reason. Practical reasons and whatever too bad I have an opinion you have your opinion I have mine because mine does not agree with your I should not post? WRONG
Now I will go out on limb here I bet the Kaukauna coaches are doing more than just changing to board short to get good participation. Just a guess though. That program has had some really good team success and success breeds success. But heck maybe it is just the board shorts.
See, Ramjet, this is your problem.
1 - You post the same stuff repeatedly without adding anything to new to an argument.
2 - You then completely miscontrue what anyone who disagrees with you ever said.
3 - You then get all snide and snippy and then become a jackwagon when people get tired of you.
NOWHERE did Doc or I
EVER say changing the uniform would magically solve all problems. We simply said it would help in a nuimber of ways and then you keep chiming in with illogical, nonsensical points and you do it nonstop. Way to exaggerate the potential for injury with board shorts.
You also keep bringing up the argument about what successfull programs do. Let me try to make this real simple for you:
Nobody is suggesting that a uniform change will help struggling programs solve all their problems. We are saying a change could help ALL programs.
Do you get that now?
ALL PROGRAMS could be helped by a change in uniforms. Therefore, I don't care what Luxemburg or Ellsworth is doing differently from BarneyFifedom High School or West Bangkok.
If Kaukauna saw 5 additional kids come out because of the uniform change, multiply that by every school district and then figure a possible bump at the high school level and we are talking about possibly adding thousands of kids to wrestling. Now, of course, you will disagreee with this and either make your snippy comments about "
....go take it to the WIAA then..." or you will give a myriad of reasons why kids don't come out for wrestling.
Now let's make this clear, too. We don't expect every kid to come out for wrestling because of a uniform change. And we know that some kids will have excuses regardless of any change. That is not what is being discussed. We are simply talking about changing a widely-held negative perception that stems from the singlet - that's it.
As for you to not being able to post because I don't agree with you. YOU are WRONG again.
Post as often as you want. Just stop saying the same crap on the same threads and you using your same, tired, old tactics.
It get's old. Real old. But if you insist on showing people your ugly side, by all means - post away.
Thanks in advance.
I think the real reason is, the kids would have a hard time trading board shorts and under armour vs. a singlet at the national tournys
This post is prime example of your ugly side Whatever and repetitive posts saying the same thing.
So how many different ways do you and Doc have to post this uniform thing until you get everybody to sing kumbya together and agree with you?
There has been 4 threads and two polls both polls overwhelmingly agree with the singlet.
Quote from: cramps on March 28, 2013, 10:49:16 AM
I think the real reason is, the kids would have a hard time trading board shorts and under armour vs. a singlet at the national tournys
Hard to carry them like a trader trading beaver pelts. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ramjet= Jackwagon
So how many different ways do you and Doc have to post this uniform thing until you get everybody to sing kumbya together and agree with you?
Exhibit A.
Quote from: whatever on March 28, 2013, 10:44:38 AM
Quote from: ramjet on March 28, 2013, 09:28:45 AM
Well interesting that whatever and Doc neither knew that jr high can wear an alternative uniform but still persist on thinking it is the reason kids will not wrestle. Maybe some but that is not the fundamental reasons just maybe one reason for those who are looking for an excuse.
Wrestling is tough demanding sport. It takes allot of hard work and commitment and is physically demanding many kids are just to soft to do it. Many parents worry about little johnny getting hurt and having to work so hard. So get off your high horse this topic has been posted and polls that all favored the singlet put up many times. The majority of the people here agree with the singlet but many could care less of it was an option.
The first time one kid gets his fingers caught up into the loose material of the board shorts and comes off with a dislocated finger it will be you Doc screaming bloody murder about how unsafe those uniforms are. Or how this kid lost this match because the kid "grabbed the shorts" to turn him.
Too bad I disagree whatever the singlet was developed for good reason. Practical reasons and whatever too bad I have an opinion you have your opinion I have mine because mine does not agree with your I should not post? WRONG
Now I will go out on limb here I bet the Kaukauna coaches are doing more than just changing to board short to get good participation. Just a guess though. That program has had some really good team success and success breeds success. But heck maybe it is just the board shorts.
See, Ramjet, this is your problem.
1 - You post the same stuff repeatedly without adding anything to new to an argument.
2 - You then completely miscontrue what anyone who disagrees with you ever said.
3 - You then get all snide and snippy and then become a jackwagon when people get tired of you.
NOWHERE did Doc or I EVER say changing the uniform would magically solve all problems. We simply said it would help in a nuimber of ways and then you keep chiming in with illogical, nonsensical points and you do it nonstop. Way to exaggerate the potential for injury with board shorts.
You also keep bringing up the argument about what successfull programs do. Let me try to make this real simple for you:
Nobody is suggesting that a uniform change will help struggling programs solve all their problems. We are saying a change could help ALL programs.
Do you get that now? ALL PROGRAMS could be helped by a change in uniforms. Therefore, I don't care what Luxemburg or Ellsworth is doing differently from BarneyFifedom High School or West Bangkok.
If Kaukauna saw 5 additional kids come out because of the uniform change, multiply that by every school district and then figure a possible bump at the high school level and we are talking about possibly adding thousands of kids to wrestling. Now, of course, you will disagreee with this and either make your snippy comments about "....go take it to the WIAA then..." or you will give a myriad of reasons why kids don't come out for wrestling.
Now let's make this clear, too. We don't expect every kid to come out for wrestling because of a uniform change. And we know that some kids will have excuses regardless of any change. That is not what is being discussed. We are simply talking about changing a widely-held negative perception that stems from the singlet - that's it.
As for you to not being able to post because I don't agree with you. YOU are WRONG again.
Post as often as you want. Just stop saying the same crap on the same threads and you using your same, tired, old tactics.
It get's old. Real old. But if you insist on showing people your ugly side, by all means - post away.
Thanks in advance.
I don't follow the logic of going from 5 new kids coming out in a large school district (with a very reputable program), to applying that to every school district in the state. The number of new kids coming from Kaukauna cannot be applied at a fixed amount. This is also assuming each program can afford to purchase the alternate uniforms, and, if they can afford them, choose to do so. It would be cool if 5 new kids came out at each school, and that each school could afford to purchase alternate uniforms - the impact would be noticeable. However, this is not a perfect world, and I am not sure how each school district and its student body would respond to the uniform change. We won't know until it's done, but I imagine an insignificant change in participation (obviously my opinion).
Drew,
If Kaukauna can get 5 kids JUST because of new uniforms, doesn't it stand to reason that some schools MIGHT get more? I mean, if kids already KNOW how successful Kaukauna is but the wrestling puts them over the edge and makes then want to come out, isn't is possible the programs with less success or accolades than Kaukauna MIGHT get more?
Let's put it his way, Drew - I'm almost certain providing a new OPTION for uniforms would not cause a DECREASE, correct?
So it stands to reason that the impact of such a change would be positive, regardless of what the actual numbers turn out to be.
Doc was the person that pointed out Kaukauna used the new uniforms. Kluever came on to confirm it.
Yes it's possible. Anything is possible. It's nice that you're looking at it in an optimistic way. But as a percentage of the student body, many will get less. I trust you can understand that. And a more reasonable approach to project the impact would be the amount of new wrestlers due strictly to the uniform option, as a percentage of the male student body.
And yes - I think it would increase participants, but I don't believe that difference will be noticeable. As I stated in the earlier thread, I see more value in other areas of recruiting kids and promoting the sport, rather than a passive approach.
But if a new uniform is another way to recruit kids and it can help promote the sport, why do you say that it's passive?
I cannot say that certainly a uniform change is going to increase numbers and have never said that. We all know there are many issues in play and yes some kids are just soft.
We do have proof that it helped Kaukauna's numbers and I have proof that the middle school kids in our program now want the alternative uniform after wrestling against Kaukauna.
That is powerful in itself for building some excitement with change. If I had not seen the reactions I would not keep bringing it up. This thread started simply because of some reactions on the internet to pictures from the NCAA tournament that many felt were quite revealing and took the focus off the stud wrestler in the picture.
I do think it will help with perception from parents to wrestlers and have noted many personal experiences with parents, social media, etc with comments on sexuality of uniform and just flat out showing too much between the legs. These perceptions keep more kids out of wrestling than anything I believe. Many kids do not even get the choice to find out how hard wrestling is because there parents won't let them do it. How many former wrestlers have you known that married and there wives were uncomfortable with wrestling. Happens all the time. Well think of all those that have dads that never wrestled. MMA can help change that stereotype especially if more kids look like the MMA guys with shirts on.
Ramjet has not offered one instance where the singlet drew in wrestlers because they liked the uniform, has not offered one instance of a wrestler that dislocated his finger because it got caught in a shirt, has not offered one instance where a T-shirt altered a match because the ref could not see the shoulder blades. He has simply offered as a debate that it is tradition and kept harping on that the WIAA would not approve it. The WIAA has approved it as has USA wrestling but the NFHS has not. I believe it will be coming.
As a side note, looked at what happened when Michael Jordan decided he no longer wanted the tight shorts that NBA basketball players were known for.....the baggy shorts took off.
Another example of a small change that contributed to the overwhelming popularity of a sport........
Has the singlet evolved over time? Yep! Fabrics are different now and not always for the better. Singlets in the past were lower cut across the chest and now they are higher. Why? Did the nipples need to be covered?
My own thoughts with comparing to MMA uniform is why would we need a shirt in wrestling? Why does the singlet go over the shoulders? Is that simply a design from keeping the bottom from falling off? Could there be one shoulder strap like some of the all star wrestling uniforms? ;D
For the record I am not for bare chested wrestling but what are we supposedly covering there with the singlet?
Quote from: whatever on March 28, 2013, 12:27:19 PM
But if a new uniform is another way to recruit kids and it can help promote the sport, why do you say that it's passive?
It's more passive because it's just having buying something and hoping it will increase numbers. If you're going to market it - then that is active. How goofy does it sound though - "Hey, we got new uniforms now, come join wrestling!". Then the questions come - "why do some guys wear these uniforms and others (mostly elite kids, since they wrestle with the singlet in freestyle/greco/collegiate) don't?". "Well I want to be a considered elite, I'm going to wear the singlet too." Then we have kids on the team who wear a singlet and others the alternate uniform. This is an indirect way of determining which kids are insecure/uncomfortable about wearing a singlet versus those who aren't (obviously there might be other reasons for a uniform choice, but since we are recruiting kids who will come out based on a uniform change, it's clear there is a sense of insecurity or uncomfortable-ness with the singlet). I imagine some kids will make fun of them for that (it's high school, they find every way to make fun of each other). This is where the uniform option could back-fire, and then just prove to be a waste of $. It could also have a positive impact, and more kids come out and everyone loves/wears the new uniforms. It seems overly optimistic. There are more productive ways to achieve increased participation, where we (as a wrestling community) encourage, welcome and embrace prospects.
I think more active recruiting would include discussion/convincing on how beneficial it is for football, track & field (more so field), and building discipline, work ethic, teamwork and good character.
I honestly think but could be wrong that once more teams switch to the 2-piece more kids are going to want that and you will see the singlet phased out over time for all wrestlers.
If you let kids choose the option, I think more will choose the 2-piece.
I also think one of the negatives of having an option will be that kids will make more fun of the kids wearing the singlet which will also drive those to the 2-piece.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 28, 2013, 01:18:19 PM
I honestly think but could be wrong that once more teams switch to the 2-piece more kids are going to want that and you will see the singlet phased out over time for all wrestlers.
If you let kids choose the option, I think more will choose the 2-piece.
I also think one of the negatives of having an option will be that kids will make more fun of the kids wearing the singlet which will also drive those to the 2-piece.
The singlet will not be phased out.
I think more will choose the singlet based on the example I just gave. Good and elite wrestlers will choose the singlet more often than the 2-piece (again, freestyle/greco/college requires it and those rules will not be changing anytime in the next decade or so).
The ones being made fun of can also be the one wearing the 2-piece. Those who choose the singlet are most likely too confident to care what Jonny IOnlyPlayFootballBecauseImCool says. They are most likely good/elite wrestlers who are successful in their craft, and would laugh at what Jonny says and probably make fun of him for not being tough enough to wrestle and instead doing curls in the weightroom with their cut-offs. (Sorry if that was a little aggressive).
Hammen,
Elite wrestlers are 2% of the population and when tallking about wrestling issues I never really consider them because they are the true wrestlers and diehards. The rest are just doing it for fun and a sport. I was talking about youth wrestling, middle school wrestling, and yes I believe it will mostly phase out of high school wrestling. I don't think it will ever leave college or international wrestling and there will always be the old school wrestlers in high school.
But if each youth team and middle school team moves more to 2-piece uniforms based on popularity with the kids like when our kids saw the Kaukauna uniforms, I don't think many would switch back to the singlet in high school unless they have to.
Do you think freestyle and greco youth wrestling would switch?
Quote from: hammen on March 28, 2013, 01:54:46 PM
Do you think freestyle and greco youth wrestling would switch?
They already have the option. The WWF came out with a 2-peice option last year that all the kids I asked about it loved it but it was about $100 I think for shorts and shirt so I don't believe they sold much. Like you have mentioned in the past, cost will be an issue.
Right now I also think nobody wants to be "different", as more teams switch it will gradually become more affordable and more popular.
Pretty sure USA wrestling allows the 2-piece option in all competitions. It is just going to take some clothing manufacturers to market it and make it affordable.
I think teams will start buying the shorts and kids can buy the shirts printed how they want each year for $25
Doc,
Actually back in the day when JT was wrestling as a youth at Gtown there was an instance at a practice were a boys arm got caught in a shirt during a switch and broke his arm. After that, the rule in the wrestling room was all shirts tucked in.
Quote from: Tonto on March 28, 2013, 02:41:25 PM
Doc,
Actually back in the day when JT was wrestling as a youth at Gtown there was an instance at a practice were a boys arm got caught in a shirt during a switch and broke his arm. After that, the rule in the wrestling room was all shirts tucked in.
It makes sense and I am sure it happens. Just figured that if it happened often, coaches would not allow what they allow in the practice room.
Hammen,
I'll take you up on that ten year statement. What's the bet?
That a singlet will be required across the board for Freestyle, Greco and Collegiate style? Freestyle and Greco events include international competitions. Yes, I will make a bet. You name it.
Quote from: hammen on March 28, 2013, 03:37:33 PM
That a singlet will be required across the board for Freestyle, Greco and Collegiate style? Freestyle and Greco events include international competitions. Yes, I will make a bet. You name it.
A singlet is not required now as far as I know!
For World Championships and Olympics? That would be surprising.
Quote from: hammen on March 28, 2013, 03:48:03 PM
For World Championships and Olympics? That would be surprising.
That what be surprising to me too at that level
I just looked on themat.com and it looks like the 2-piece is only allowed for folkstyle events
Here are the team Wisconsin 2012 board shorts on discount sale
http://www.usawrestlingproducts.com/2012_Wisconsin_Folkstyle_Team_Board_Short_p/wisc-t5.htm
Here are the 2013
http://www.usawrestlingproducts.com/2013_Team_Wisconsin_Sublimated_Board_Shorts_p/wiscteam-t5.htm
I think this topic has gone way too far JMO. In pre-high school the kids can buy a matching pair of shorts, I'm sure for less than $10 to wear over their singlet. I don't believe this is illegal. This would show how many wrestlers are worried about the singlet.
Doc, yes a loose t-shirt does effect a pin. I always told the wrestlers if they wore a loose t-shirt, the shirt would be considered their shoulder blade.
14/14 of our varsity wrestlers all say nothing wrong with singlets and wouldnt wear shorts/shirts,out of the 14 id say maybe 3/4 are so called elite wrestlers.Our wrestling club funds pretty much the high/middle school programs(singlets/warmups)most are not going to want to supply more options.Id be willing to bet that kaukauna's#s are up more because of great youth feeder program then cause of uniform option.jmo.
Kaukauna is blessed to have who they do running their programs and with the success of the high school team more kids are going to at least be willing to give the sport a try.
Kaukauna also has a larger spending bank due to some of the large tournaments that they run. They work their butts off for it but have multiple times the budget than most.
Our little kids love the singlet and can't wait to wear it. I'm sure there are a few husky kids that may deter from the sport because of the singlet but we are talking a very low percentage.
Of course it's not going to hurt the numbers but there is no proof that it would have any significant help either.
Quote from: whatever on March 28, 2013, 12:36:15 PM
As a side note, looked at what happened when Michael Jordan decided he no longer wanted the tight shorts that NBA basketball players were known for.....the baggy shorts took off.
Another example of a small change that contributed to the overwhelming popularity of a sport........
Really? Your credibility just tanked with me. Ha! Ha! Ha! Wrestling isn't a sport for super cool kids that are focused on being cool.
Kyle
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 28, 2013, 12:38:05 PM
For the record I am not for bare chested wrestling but what are we supposedly covering there with the singlet?
Slippery skin.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 28, 2013, 01:18:19 PM
I honestly think but could be wrong that once more teams switch to the 2-piece more kids are going to want that and you will see the singlet phased out over time for all wrestlers.
If you let kids choose the option, I think more will choose the 2-piece.
I also think one of the negatives of having an option will be that kids will make more fun of the kids wearing the singlet which will also drive those to the 2-piece.
Kids should not be allowed to choose their uniform. They are pampered to much already. That is why so many are useless when they enter the work force. They can not imagine doing something just because their superiors told them to. Is this what we want to culture in our sports program? Do you remember when kids wore pants that fell down and the crotch rode at their knees? There is no reason to change the singlet to please a few whiny kids. They probably wont have what it takes for this sport anyway. There are plenty of great programs that are not using cooler uniforms to sell this sport to kids. I think the whole singlet excuse is lame.
Kyle
Quote from: ramjet on March 28, 2013, 09:28:45 AM
The first time one kid gets his fingers caught up into the loose material of the board shorts and comes off with a dislocated finger it will be you Doc screaming bloody murder about how unsafe those uniforms are. Or how this kid lost this match because the kid "grabbed the shorts" to turn him.
You're no more likely to get a finger caught in skin tight UA than a singlet and you could just as easily grab someones singlet as you could UA shorts. Either way that would be a TV.
Quote from: Tonto on March 28, 2013, 02:41:25 PM
Doc,
Actually back in the day when JT was wrestling as a youth at Gtown there was an instance at a practice were a boys arm got caught in a shirt during a switch and broke his arm. After that, the rule in the wrestling room was all shirts tucked in.
Tee shirts should always be tucked in when wrestling, UA shirts eliminate a lot of that issue but still should be tucked in.
If fight shorts and UA type shorts gets more kids out for wrestling, it's a good thing. In no way would a new "uniform" stop any current wrestling fans from watching the sport, nor cause any current wrestler to stop wrestling. The only thing a change would do is help the sport. How / why is that bad?
Even parents (who have never wrestled) have the same view as MOST teens on the singlet. Do you think their comments on the singlet might have a role in forming an opinion with their kids?
Quote from: boowrestle on March 28, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
14/14 of our varsity wrestlers all say nothing wrong with singlets and wouldnt wear shorts/shirts,out of the 14 id say maybe 3/4 are so called elite wrestlers.Our wrestling club funds pretty much the high/middle school programs(singlets/warmups)most are not going to want to supply more options.Id be willing to bet that kaukauna's#s are up more because of great youth feeder program then cause of uniform option.jmo.
And as a counter, because of the earlier discussion on this topic I polled our MS team, approx 35 kids. Every single one said they would prefer shorts/shirt because those would be "cool". None of them said they would quit because of a singlet, but given a choice it isn't even close.
I truly don't understand the opposition to allowing an option on this....since it is an "option".
Quote from: Roo on March 29, 2013, 07:36:10 AM
Quote from: boowrestle on March 28, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
14/14 of our varsity wrestlers all say nothing wrong with singlets and wouldnt wear shorts/shirts,out of the 14 id say maybe 3/4 are so called elite wrestlers.Our wrestling club funds pretty much the high/middle school programs(singlets/warmups)most are not going to want to supply more options.Id be willing to bet that kaukauna's#s are up more because of great youth feeder program then cause of uniform option.jmo.
And as a counter, because of the earlier discussion on this topic I polled our MS team, approx 35 kids. Every single one said they would prefer shorts/shirt because those would be "cool". None of them said they would quit because of a singlet, but given a choice it isn't even close.
I truly don't understand the opposition to allowing an option on this....since it is an "option".
The opposition is debating that an option of this new uniform would not create a material impact in participation. That is the reason why this topic was started. It would definitely be cool to have that clothing, and a few high school teams already have these shirts/mma shorts (most college teams do and have for about 5 years). It's just a matter of making it an option to wear the uniform for competition. Would it get a few more kids out for the sport who are uncomfortable with the singlet? Yes. Would that make a noticeable impact in participation #'s? I don't think so. These kids who come out because of the new uniform - who says they all stick it out? As we all know, wrestling is a tough sport and not for everyone. Someone who is afraid of being made fun of for wearing a singlet will on the mat with an opponent may not be able to tough it out.
Another thing I thought of (I probably brought this up in that earlier thread) - what happens when these mma shorts get in the way of falls? You can't say that this would never happen. I imagine it would happen many times throughout a single tournament. Armbars and halfs where the top guy's thighs are at the head of his opponent while going for the fall - is the ref going to have to lift the top guy's shorts every time to see a fall? No thank you - I'd rather wear a singlet and get my fall rather than having my cool mma shorts get in the way of earning bonus points for my team.
My understanding is this topic is about having a option for a uniform when wrestling. Makes me curious about the different age level of which kids would choose shorts over a singlet. My guess is middle school and younger may choose shorts over a singlets just due to the natural fact kids at that age are more self conscious about their bodies. Then I wonder as kids move into high school does their view change between singlets and shorts, my opinion yes. A singlet is preferred. Maybe an option could be used for younger kids. Get them introduced to the sport, comfortable with their bodies, then if they stick it out and move towards high school level a singlet would be the only option. Shorts do get in the way at times way more so than a singlet. It's hard enough for the referees now.
Quote from: hammen on March 29, 2013, 08:37:25 AM
Would it get a few more kids out for the sport who are uncomfortable with the singlet? Yes. Would that make a noticeable impact in participation #'s? I don't think so. These kids who come out because of the new uniform - who says they all stick it out? As we all know, wrestling is a tough sport and not for everyone. Someone who is afraid of being made fun of for wearing a singlet will on the mat with an opponent may not be able to tough it out.
This just does not make sense to me. You are considering that it will get a few more kids out for the sport but it would NOT increase participation #'s? And your reasoning is that we should right them off because they are not tough enough?
Many kids are tough and wear the singlet despite the snide comments made by others. Do they just have to accept that those comments are normal towards wrestlers to show how tough they are?
This discussion was started as ONE of many possible solutions to improving numbers. I suggest that more wrestlers might try wrestling in middle school or high school with an alternate option. I have no idea if they will "stick with it" but having more try it is a positive. I also suggest that an alternate uniform option may even change the opinions of some parents that will not allow their child try wrestling.
To me that has the possibility of increasing participation numbers. Even the slightest increase would be worth it as a I see very few disadvantages to wearing a 2-piece uniform.
When I started years ago in MS we didn't have singlets. Just wore shorts and tshirts. Seeing the high school kids with singlets made me want to keep going and "get" to wear one of them.
Ok Doc get it implemented in your school for youth and Jr High let us know how many more kids come out and stay out.
Quote from: ramjet on March 29, 2013, 09:47:26 AM
Ok Doc get it implemented in your school for youth and Jr High let us know how many more kids come out and stay out.
Working on it and hoping we get the same results and reaction Kaukauna got with theirs.
Be sure and share the data.
Even if Doc comes on here and says 5 kids came out for wrestling JUST because of the singlet, people on here will still dismiss it.
Heck, Kluever came on here and said exactly what I just stated above and other people still dismiss it as "...well, KK is already successful, KK has more money, etc., etc., etc. They are ignoring the KK coach who specifically said this improved their numbers a little and turning it around to fit their own opinion.
It amazes me how when people have a pre-concieved opinion about something, they mold new information to fit their views and if it doesn't mesh with their views, then it's just dismissed entirely.
To me the biggest argument I see against uniform change boils down to one simple argument :
"WELL, I DON'T THINK SO......."
Wow.
You are over reacting.
I'm not overreacting to anything.
I'm stating exactly what has taken place on this very thread.
It seems to me that some are leaders and some are followers. Some look to the future and some cling to the tradition of the past. Some are just afraid of change.
In a sense I have been a follower on this issue since I have thought it would be a good idea ever since it was approved and saw the kids reactions to the WWF option.
I am a follower because I look to other successful programs and rather than just say they have it easy and that is why they are successful, I want to copy what they are doing. Kaukauna has taken a lead hear and I commend them for being the first as far as I know. I will try to get our club and district to follow. I am one opinion and just like there are diverse opinions on this forum, there are diverse opinions in my own community and that is a great thing.
But we cannot be afraid of change or trying something new. Who cares if I am wrong? What did we lose out on for trying something new? Some money wasted on uniforms? There would be nothing wrong with kids deciding they did not like them and returning back to the singlets. What do you learn if you don't try new things?
I don't think injuries are as much of a problem as the shorts getting in the way of moves. I know in HS and college my hand would get caught up in them trying to do cradles, over unders, etc.. I don't know how loose board shorts are compared to the mesh shorts we wore though.
I can just see it now if youth numbers do increase a little bit because of a new uniform, everyone will be complaining about the lack of numbers in sticking it out in HS from youth because you had more kids "try" it in youth.
Quote from: whatever on March 29, 2013, 11:35:21 AM
I'm not overreacting to anything.
I'm stating exactly what has taken place on this very thread.
The reason I ask about cost is I wonder how long shorts last and shirt. Is it one year for either? If so the discussion of cost has to come up. If they last 5 years that would be a different story. Having wrestlers pay for their unis would far out-weigh those that come out because they look "cool".
Listen there is solid arguments both ways but those in favor of the singlet have made good case. Just because they are not going 100% with you two does not mean they are wrong or old fashion or even unfair. We just see it differently based on experience but I say show the data and Whatever says nobody will consider it. That is just not tire we all want higher participation but are skeptical if unform changes will have a very high impact or even any impact in high school.
Ramjet, you are a very vocal minority. Just because you post here repeatedly doesn't make you right.
You keep think this is just me and Doc that are pushing this. You just ignore all the posters who have stated that they said they think a change might be good just because they don't post on here repeatedly. I talked to Kluever personally about this very issue and he said it really frustrates him how people refuse to make minor changes in wrestling. Now, just because he doesn't waste his time (like me) and post on here repeatedly, you think that somehow, he doesn't have strong feelings. Heck, he went out and got his club the new uniforms - what does that tell you? Do you think he just did it on a whim?
Howavi, Dale, and others have said they think the singlet causes a lot of people to not be very respectful of the sport and they've heard it time and time again, but again, because they don't post on this topic over and over you dismiss them.
Not to mention, Grappler200 pointed out why any of your "polls" that you like to trumpet are pointless because you're polling the very people on here who this change is not geared towards - the die-hards.
Really, I should just ignore this topic because it's not a huge deal to me but I do believe there are lots of people who read this forum but choose not to post. Maybe a lot of them agree with you. Either way, I keep posting because I think change is always present in life and sometimes you can resist it but change is still going to take place.
Padre,
You mentioned cost and that is a valid concern.
Here is what Kluever told me - he got new singlets, new shorts, new dry-fit tops and a "hoodie" for $105 per kid. Now granted, this is probably a pretty good deal because they ordered a lot of them and they probably good a pretty good deal because they order lots of wrestling gear.
At the same time, it sounds like the new uniforms were pretty low and were pretty comparable to singlets in terms of cost.
In addition, I would be of the opinion that board shorts and a dry-fit top would be like any other uniform that is turned in by the athletes at the end of the season and re-used for the next few years. Granted, some kids may want to keep their own but that is an option that could be used for some where they purchase their uniform and the money is used to replace that uniform,
From a cost perspective, I am approaching it this way because that is a concern.
School/club buys the shorts. They should hold up for a long time I am assuming. Kids will get them and turn them in.
From a shirts standpoint, I am looking at it differently because I want them to be personalized. I want to put the school logo on the shirt as well as the wrestler's last name on the back(maybe even their favorite number from football or baseball). Make them more like a jersey in look. These would be replaced each year which means they should always fit well to the athlete and the kids could wear them to school as well as after the season. I figure we can get them screenprinted and ordered for about $30 with dri-fit shirt-(cheaper if our screen printer donated some time or money as they are a great supporter of our team) . Now that is an expense for kids but I am sure our club would step up and help those that cannot afford. A simple fundraiser each year could easily pay for the shirts. Most parents are willing to spend some money on something personalized and something they can keep and could wear all summer. Coaches could get the same uniform shirts.
The other aspect I have thought of is we always need a lot of volunteer help at the practices, events, fundraisers, and tournaments we put on. Maybe every kid pays $30 for the shirt at beginning of season but if they finish the season in good standing and their family has volunteered "x" amount of hours, the club returns their $30 or a portion of it as they have helped raise the money with their volunteer hours.
One weekend brat fry would pay for the shirts every year and the kids could keep them
Whatever do you see what is posted do you just ignore the polls even the one FRG tried to manipulate? All went with singlet as the majority. Not a minority by any means like I said many many times go ahead let everyone know post the data how many came out because of the "new" uniform and how many stayed out. That's not bias or anything except curious as to what the results are.
By the way if you have problem with the number of posts I have got to Tom and have him ban me. Heck censure is good way to get only like thinking people to agree with you.
Yes, Ram, I ignore your "polls". (
banging head against wall......)
This is why:
QuoteNot to mention, Grappler200 pointed out why any of your "polls" that you like to trumpet are pointless because you're polling the very people on here who this change is not geared towards - the die-hards.
Do you see what that is, Ram? It's a quote box. That means this has been said before. Not only am I repeating myself here - I am also repeating what Grappler200 told you previously. If I repeat it a 6th time, will it sink in that these "polls" are irrelevant to this discussion?
I do have hope that this will sink in because at least you're not repeating your other irrelevant about point about seeing what other successful programs are doing to increase numbers.
And another point I have tried to make clear to you before is that I don't have a problem with the number of your posts. The problem I have is that the volume of your posts are usually repeating the same arguments without ever adding to the discussion at hand.....but I really don't expect to you to understand my point there. (
sigh)
As for me having you banned, if you want to make snide references to previous incidences, let's get it out in the open:
Ram sent me a nasty PM.
I replied and told him to stop or he wouldn't like the end result.
Ram accused me of threatening physical harm and claimed he could get his IT guys to figure out who I was in 30 seconds and that I would be in legal trouble because I threatened him and he now had it in writing.
I replied that there was no physical threat - the end result I was referencing would be getting him banned if he kept sending me nasty PM's.
WOW
Not sure I should even dip my toe into this shark infested pond. :)
But I'm a gluten for punishment.
My son wanted to mix it up with this being his last year of youth, so we purchased MMA / Fighting shorts and a couple of compression tops, total spent around $70, he wrestled about 40+ matches in them, I never once witnessed his shorts coming down or his shirt riding up (tucked shirt in). He loved it, got quite a few questions and looks. I wasn't a fan of shorts/shirt a couple years ago when this subject started being talked about, but have warmed up to the idea of this being an option. I am probably a bit of a traditionalist, but I now like how he looked in them. I know he liked that his "package" wasn't protruding from a skin tight singlet when he wore the two piece.
He has had friends say that they didn't want to go out for wrestling, because they didn't want to wear a singlet. I told his friends that Jr wasn't wearing a singlet this year, they still didn't want to go out for wrestling. :)
Again, 40+ matches isn't a big sample set, but I never saw where it created a problem for somebodies hands fingers more than a singlet would or more than practice clothing would (seems like everyone's practice clothing is much looser than the two piece that he wore), also didn't see any problem with the ref viewing pins as was mentioned..
Just my two bits..... I like singlets, but I can see how this would quickly become popular.
Quote
Ram sent me a nasty PM.
I replied and told him to stop or he wouldn't like the end result.
Ram accused me of threatening physical harm and claimed he could get his IT guys to figure out who I was in 30 seconds and that I would be in legal trouble because I threatened him and he now had it in writing.
I replied that there was no physical threat - the end result I was referencing would be getting him banned if he kept sending me nasty PM's.
Sounds like Ram was that kid on the playground who would threaten to tell his mommy when things didn't go his way.... ;D
Quote from: ElectricGuy on March 30, 2013, 10:02:37 AM
WOW
Not sure I should even dip my toe into this shark infested pond. :)
But I'm a gluten for punishment.
My son wanted to mix it up with this being his last year of youth, so we purchased MMA / Fighting shorts and a couple of compression tops, total spent around $70, he wrestled about 40+ matches in them, I never once witnessed his shorts coming down or his shirt riding up (tucked shirt in). He loved it, got quite a few questions and looks. I wasn't a fan of shorts/shirt a couple years ago when this subject started being talked about, but have warmed up to the idea of this being an option. I am probably a bit of a traditionalist, but I now like how he looked in them. I know he liked that his "package" wasn't protruding from a skin tight singlet when he wore the two piece.
He has had friends say that they didn't want to go out for wrestling, because they didn't want to wear a singlet. I told his friends that Jr wasn't wearing a singlet this year, they still didn't want to go out for wrestling. :)
Again, 40+ matches isn't a big sample set, but I never saw where it created a problem for somebodies hands fingers more than a singlet would or more than practice clothing would (seems like everyone's practice clothing is much looser than the two piece that he wore), also didn't see any problem with the ref viewing pins as was mentioned..
Just my two bits..... I like singlets, but I can see how this would quickly become popular.
Thanks for your post. I think that's a good real life example of what can/will happen. Hopefully there are more who would want to go out for wrestling due to the change in uniform, but I see your example being more prominent than kids actually participating due to the new uniform. Just an honest opinion. That would be a situation where more active discussion with the kid may work. Or it may not. It's tough - a difficult sport that some kids are skeptical of trying.
Whatever you one funny guy you loose an argument with weak and unsubstantiated information and get personal. Typical of your type. You cannot even come close to proving that a change uniform would or even slightly change the participation levels in wrestling. The poll I posted was result of your and Docs unrelenting statements about how going to MMA shorts would increase participation yet offer no other evidence than Kaukauna. A program I might add that has a tremendous support for wrestling and youth feeder program that most likely has more to do with participation than any shorts or uniform. But you insist and when your attempts to get your point across fails miserably you insult me and get personal. Well fire away it really does not bother me the next thing you will be telling everyone is that Board Shorts will safe Olympic wrestling. ::)
The acting head of wrestling's governing body said Friday the federation is negotiating with manufacturers to produce a new singlet
Quote from: ramjet on March 29, 2013, 08:35:52 PM
Whatever do you see what is posted do you just ignore the polls even the one FRG tried to manipulate? All went with singlet as the majority. Not a minority by any means like I said many many times go ahead let everyone know post the data how many came out because of the "new" uniform and how many stayed out. That's not bias or anything except curious as to what the results are.
By the way if you have problem with the number of posts I have got to Tom and have him ban me. Heck censure is good way to get only like thinking people to agree with you.
It's somewhat comical that the polls are continued to be used as evidence in this argument...again, the people that voted in these polls are not the opinions that we care about or should be taking a look at in regards to this topic.
The sample used for the polls makes them invalid. That's Stats 101 stuff.
Not sure what the difference is between a wrestling singlet and a track and field sprinter's singlet besides the intended sport. It's the competition and what they think to be precarious situations that some people have a problem with. It wouldn't matter if the wrestlers were wearing sweat pants, eventually those uneasy people would make the inappropriate comments about the sport and its positions.