What are we doing wrong? List 3 problems/solutions

[Handles II]

I've been to three youth tournaments this month. In each, things were exactly the same.  Typically around 20 brackets for K-2,  Around 10-15 for 3-4, and 5-6 brackets for grades 5-6. 3 or less brackets for 7&8.  Granted these aren't huge tournaments, but even at the "big" ones, the ratio is almost identical. 
If brackets typically have 4 wrestlers, then wrestler attrition is immense. We are losing about 1/2 of our wrestlers every two years. This is not acceptable.

List your 3 most pressing reasons why you think this is happening and/or your solutions to retain more youth wrestlers.

[Dale Einerson]

1) We start too soon with competitive wrestling.  Imagine if the vast majority started in say, 5th or 6th grade; a similar attrition rate occurred.  It would mean high schools would have about 4X the wrestlers.
2) We wrestle live competition too much as youth.  All that, "you have to have mat time to improve" leaves out at least one very important point. First, practice is mat time.  Second, a good practice takes maybe 90 minutes and a youth tournament takes 8-12 hours counting drive times. Third, a kid in a practice gets approximately 80 minutes of conditioning and training and live wrestling.  A tournament, warm ups and then maybe 9 minutes.
3) Way, way too much focus on winning and the accompanying  "dog fight" behaviors of the parents/coaches.  If you are a parent of a youth wrestler, get to state greco or freestyle a couple hours early and just listen...to all that yelling that isn't happening.  These are the survivors of wrestling through youth and notice the friendships, the comradery, that accompany the competition, without all that yelling.

Other than that, I got nothing.

[Handles II]

Great answers Dale.
Keep 'em coming folks or chime in to agree/disagree. We need to make some changes asap, what we are doing isn't working. It's failing, badly.

[Kodonnelllaw]

Perfect World/Fun Possibilities :

1.  Too much emphasis on winning/losing and win/loss record. I understand that kids want to win. I understand parents that pay their hard earned money want their kids to win. I understand that if kids do not win they get discouraged and lose interest. Somewhere there has to be a happy medium. I do not have a solution. One unrealistic idea (do to size limitations, time, etc) is to (1) Not keep track of scores and let kids wrestle for the full allotment of time; (2) Have dual tourney style bracketing (winner of bracket A wrestles winners of bracket B, C and D; 2nd place in A wrestles 2nd place in B, C, D; etc). It would result in additional wrestling and potentially more accurate rankings of the kids. (3) Add takedown tourneys at regular tourneys or coordinated open mats for kids that are not bracketed together and want to scrap. The good kids will find each other. The kids that believe they are good will rise to the challenge, etc. I think if there were opportunities for kids to wrestle for fun and excel at moments, it would create a buzz. I would hope parents would go home saying, you may have come in 3rd but that takedown in the open mat was ridiculously good or kids would leave saying, I wrestled .... he kicked my butt but it was fun. Some Duals have this approach (AWA Freestyle Dual in Concordia. It was great. Kids had a blast on the open mat) (4) Have Folk/Free/Greco tourneys throughout the regular folk season. Yes, I am aware kids may lock their hands in Folkstyle. Its not the end of the world. Kids that participate in Free/Greco on a regular basis seem to love it. Most can't wait for Folk to be done to get to Free/Greco.

2.  Bracket correctly. Weight and Ability. Stop sandbagging talent (See Above). Stop lying about weights (There should be a penalty of the coach/kid if the weight is off). It's seriously dangerous. The weight guidelines are there for a reason. The skill rankings are there for a reason. Take some time and think about the brackets.

Just my opinion to help keep it fun.

[justaclone22]

When you get to grades 6-8, do you think there is less participation in opens because of the actual middle school schedule? The Middle School programs have scheduled meets and tournaments they attend. I would wonder if you don't get as much participation there because these kids go more as a team to the scheduled events rather than to open tournaments?

[knowgangs]

I've been to three youth tournaments this month. In each, things were exactly the same.  Typically around 20 brackets for K-2,  Around 10-15 for 3-4, and 5-6 brackets for grades 5-6. 3 or less brackets for 7&8.  Granted these aren't huge tournaments, but even at the "big" ones, the ratio is almost identical. 
If brackets typically have 4 wrestlers, then wrestler attrition is immense. We are losing about 1/2 of our wrestlers every two years. This is not acceptable.

List your 3 most pressing reasons why you think this is happening and/or your solutions to retain more youth wrestlers.

Isn't the attrition level the same for about all youth sports?  

I think it is worth exploring additional factors regarding middle school participation:

• MANY junior high schools (6th - 8th) are a part of WIAA and are not allowed to wrestle at outside events during their wrestling season which precludes them from attending non-school team events
• Throughout the state there were many middle school conference tournaments this month which conflicts with them attending other tournaments
• I see a growing group of our middle school aged wrestlers traveling to Illinois on a weekly basis for better run events and tougher competition.  Several years ago it seemed few wrestlers on the youth level frequented IL tournaments (I could count people on 1 hand).  Over the past couple years I began noticing dozens of Wisconsin youth wrestlers abandoning Wisconsin tournaments to travel to IL.  I think some would be surprised how many wrestlers and clubs travel to IL on a weekly basis for competition.
• There were many tournaments we supported when my wrestler was K-5th grade, however as we saw some go down hill--we decided we would never return.  I just heard recently of one youth tournament starting 2 hours late and heard several people say they would never return.  I would suspect next year, this tournament will see a reduction in middle school aged wrestlers returning
• A newer trend in Wisconsin is hosting dual tournaments instead of regular youth tournaments.  Just this past month I know of SEVERAL middle school dual tournaments throughout the state drawing in middle schoolers which would conflict with them attending some of these long standing tournaments.   These dual tournaments are not listed on trackwrestling and the average person would have no idea of the event or the level of participation unless they were there.  The recent one in Stoughton had over 160 middle schoolers attend.  Had these wrestlers attended a regular tournament this past Sunday instead of the dual event, how would that have changed your numbers/observations?  160 middle schoolers=40 4-man brackets!  And this was only one middle school event, there has been others this month--a somewhat newer trend in the state.

When people tell me the sport at the youth level isn't growing in the state I think of this:  Ringers has been around for years and has two locations, but within the past few years we've seen Askren open a couple locations, Higher Level Wrestling opened a location and Domination Wrestling started.  All within about an hour or so of each other.  They all have great membership levels and are all continuing to grow and expand.  

Is the sport growing in Wisconsin?  I don't know for sure, but from what I see on the youth level it is doing just fine (just my perception).  I think the only way to determine would be a count in USA card purchases for the state over the past few years PLUS a poll of every middle school (a good portion of middle school wrestlers do not purchase USA wrestling cards or wrestle outside of the school sanctioned events).  And then compare that with the growth or reduction of participation in other sports.  Is it just wrestling or are all of our youth being drawn away from sports?  

Just my thoughts.

[DocWrestling]

1)Real simple.  Change parent's attitudes.  The parents are the problem, not the kids.

2) Duals between clubs are a start- they are more enjoyable, less pressure events.  Clubs just need to organize triangulars on Saturday mornings and set up matches with fans in the stands.  Run a practice together for 45 minutes and then wrestle matches set up by coaches.  Do not need weight classes of team scores.
Tournaments are what are killing wrestling and numbers.  There is very little value to the wrestler and many parents do not enjoy them at all therefore they are looking for reasons to get "Jimmy" out of the sport rather than encouraging him to stay.

If the WWF just flat out enforced a rule eliminating K-2 tourneys, thing would improve greatly.

3) Need to improve middle school wrestling.  Get these kids away from youth wrestling and create their own division.  Organize season across state, set up competitions for middle school only.  Essentially in the end you would have three divisions of wrestling and kids would look forward to moving into the next.  Youth wrestling for 3rd-5th graders, Middle school wrestling for 6th-8th graders, and the High school wrestling.

4) Too many matches-  No way it is beneficial for youth and middle school wrestlers wrestling more matches than high schoolers and most agree that the high schoolers probably have too many matches these days

[madeyson]

1) People running youth tournaments that don't know what they are doing. There are too many tournaments that have high school kids reffing, 1/4 size mats, and WAY to many parents screaming at the top of their lungs mat side. To break it down - I get trying to have high school athletes involved in their sport - but having a high school kid that may or may not know all the rules try to ref is not in the best interest of the sport. The rules are already confusing to new comers to the sport. Someone is going to say it is not about winning and losing  - sorry but having a kid lose a match because the ref did not know the rules is not life...and all the other youth sports I have seen (football/basketball) use trained officials - let's follow suit. 1/4 size mats - how can a kid even learn how to do a double leg takedown on such a small mat? Even though the kids may only be 60 pounds doesn't mean that they need less room to wrestle. I for one get very frustrated at many tournaments I go to and I have been involved in the sport for 30 years. I can't even imagine what a first time parent thinks.
2) Agree with points on ranking your wrestler. If you are a state qualifier you are excellent....period. Don't try to justify it in your mind any other way - you get better by wrestling the good competition - not beating up on a first year wrestler.
3) Put more focus on practice. Somebody mentioned it above - the practice is where you become a better wrestler. I also believe there needs to be a lot of matches and competitions - but there needs to be a strong emphasis on creating a practice atmosphere where kids have fun AND work hard.

[Handles II]

I hear what you are saying madeyson, but I also watch little league and youth basketball tournaments. High school (or younger) refs are very common in those sports as well. And yes they make errors and sometimes don't know every rule. At $250 per ref for the day, hiring 8-10 refs for a youth tournament might not be beneficial, in addition I'm not sure if many refs would do it, most spend all day saturday and two nights per week away from home. Just a thought.

1/4 mats - Certainly not ideal, but if high school wrestlers can stay in their practice circle area and still score points every single day, can't 4th graders score in that same amount of space? Gyms often have room for only 2 mats and wrestling programs often only have 2 mats. I doubt that kids are quitting the sport, or parents are encouraging them to quit, because of 1/4 mats.  

I think some of the other issues that have been brought up are much more the issues that need to be attended to with more vigor.

[aarons23]

1) People running youth tournaments that don't know what they are doing. There are too many tournaments that have high school kids reffing, 1/4 size mats, and WAY to many parents screaming at the top of their lungs mat side. To break it down - I get trying to have high school athletes involved in their sport - but having a high school kid that may or may not know all the rules try to ref is not in the best interest of the sport. The rules are already confusing to new comers to the sport. Someone is going to say it is not about winning and losing  - sorry but having a kid lose a match because the ref did not know the rules is not life...and all the other youth sports I have seen (football/basketball) use trained officials - let's follow suit. 1/4 size mats - how can a kid even learn how to do a double leg takedown on such a small mat? Even though the kids may only be 60 pounds doesn't mean that they need less room to wrestle. I for one get very frustrated at many tournaments I go to and I have been involved in the sport for 30 years. I can't even imagine what a first time parent thinks.
2) Agree with points on ranking your wrestler. If you are a state qualifier you are excellent....period. Don't try to justify it in your mind any other way - you get better by wrestling the good competition - not beating up on a first year wrestler.
3) Put more focus on practice. Somebody mentioned it above - the practice is where you become a better wrestler. I also believe there needs to be a lot of matches and competitions - but there needs to be a strong emphasis on creating a practice atmosphere where kids have fun AND work hard.

High school refs are not the problem....most do a great job.  1/4 mats for little guys  are not the problem.  Yes a 60# kid can easily do a double on a 1/4 mat. My 88# kid has no problem wrestling on a 1/4 mat.  If you learn at a young age to wrestle on a 1/4 mat you learn to score in small spaces.  When you get to larger mat...you should have no problem.

Cutting weight, crazy parents, and to many tourneys are the problem.  My boys are loving wrestling this year.  My middle one wrestled with his middle school (3 duals), one youth tourney and two dual meets.  He most likely will be off the next two weeks.  My youngest... 2 tourneys and 2 dual meets.  He would wrestle every day if we let him but he also needs to be a kid. 

My oldest is in high school....a senior.  Will be wrestling D1 next year in college.  He wrestled through youth as many tournaments and did all the running to Illinios tourneys that you possibly could. Yes he turned into a great wrestler.....but he also missed a great deal of being a kid....enjoying holiday meals, spending time with other friends etc....  I never realized this until he was a sophomore and came down really ill.  There was a time the doctors and us thought he would never wrestle again.....it devastated him.  For a time a was more worried about him mentally than the actual illness.  He identified as a wrestler.....and only a wrestler.  He truly thought his life was over.  Fortunately the doctors figured out what was going on and corrected it.  I vowed to never let my kids identify as one thing ever again.  He now is involved in other activities like 4-h and trap shooting.  He took last weekend and spent it with his god father ice fishing.  Wrestling is an important aspect of our lives....but not the only aspect. All my kids participate in other activities.....and yes... We miss wrestling for it.  Sometimes we take time off just to be kids.  Those who know my boys.....know they are still pretty good wrestlers.

[DrSnide]

1) People running youth tournaments that don't know what they are doing. There are too many tournaments that have high school kids reffing, 1/4 size mats, and WAY to many parents screaming at the top of their lungs mat side. To break it down - I get trying to have high school athletes involved in their sport - but having a high school kid that may or may not know all the rules try to ref is not in the best interest of the sport. The rules are already confusing to new comers to the sport. Someone is going to say it is not about winning and losing  - sorry but having a kid lose a match because the ref did not know the rules is not life...and all the other youth sports I have seen (football/basketball) use trained officials - let's follow suit. 1/4 size mats - how can a kid even learn how to do a double leg takedown on such a small mat? Even though the kids may only be 60 pounds doesn't mean that they need less room to wrestle. I for one get very frustrated at many tournaments I go to and I have been involved in the sport for 30 years. I can't even imagine what a first time parent thinks.
2) Agree with points on ranking your wrestler. If you are a state qualifier you are excellent....period. Don't try to justify it in your mind any other way - you get better by wrestling the good competition - not beating up on a first year wrestler.
3) Put more focus on practice. Somebody mentioned it above - the practice is where you become a better wrestler. I also believe there needs to be a lot of matches and competitions - but there needs to be a strong emphasis on creating a practice atmosphere where kids have fun AND work hard.

High school refs are not the problem....most do a great job.  1/4 mats for little guys  are not the problem.  Yes a 60# kid can easily do a double on a 1/4 mat. My 88# kid has no problem wrestling on a 1/4 mat.  If you learn at a young age to wrestle on a 1/4 mat you learn to score in small spaces.  When you get to larger mat...you should have no problem.

Cutting weight, crazy parents, and to many tourneys are the problem.  My boys are loving wrestling this year.  My middle one wrestled with his middle school (3 duals), one youth tourney and two dual meets.  He most likely will be off the next two weeks.  My youngest... 2 tourneys and 2 dual meets.  He would wrestle every day if we let him but he also needs to be a kid. 

My oldest is in high school....a senior.  Will be wrestling D1 next year in college.  He wrestled through youth as many tournaments and did all the running to Illinios tourneys that you possibly could. Yes he turned into a great wrestler.....but he also missed a great deal of being a kid....enjoying holiday meals, spending time with other friends etc....  I never realized this until he was a sophomore and came down really ill.  There was a time the doctors and us thought he would never wrestle again.....it devastated him.  For a time a was more worried about him mentally than the actual illness.  He identified as a wrestler.....and only a wrestler.  He truly thought his life was over.  Fortunately the doctors figured out what was going on and corrected it.  I vowed to never let my kids identify as one thing ever again.  He now is involved in other activities like 4-h and trap shooting.  He took last weekend and spent it with his god father ice fishing.  Wrestling is an important aspect of our lives....but not the only aspect. All my kids participate in other activities.....and yes... We miss wrestling for it.  Sometimes we take time off just to be kids.  Those who know my boys.....know they are still pretty good wrestlers.

One of the best posts I have ever seen on here.   I had a similar experience with my oldest after suffering knee injuries three years in a row leading to some serious "who am I now" struggles and its has changed my perspective greatly.  Great perspective Aaron, Thank you for sharing.

[DocWrestling]

As has been said already, Tournaments are a problem.  Why?

Goal of club running the tournament is to make as much money as possible.  If they eliminate an age division to allow kids to have more mat space then they make less money.  If they hire refs, then they make less money. 

Goals of most parents attending tournaments should be a quality wrestling experience where the wrestler gets quality safe mat time and he can learn.

Goals of many parents is to attend a tournament to see who is the best and get out of their as fast as they can and whine about how much the entry fee is or how the awards don't measure up.

Why are there not 3 periods?  Why are there not longer periods? etc.  Because parents simply want a ranking of the wrestlers and get out fast.  Tournament just wants your money and then get you out so they can have the rest of their day!

Why can't tournaments provide a better wrestling experience and why don't parents want a better wrestling experience?  Why not have tourneys with just one or two age groups?  Wrestle real matches like 4 minutes with 3 periods?  Have fewer mats but larger areas so fans can all actually be in the stands?  Would a longer day be worth that?  Would a $10 hike in entry fees be worth it to get certified refs?  Where would the refs come from on Saturdays, the only ones we have are working high school matches.

[Say-Say]

1.)  Competitions too early.  Burn out.  Solution: start later.  Middle school maybe.  But that goes for any sport out there.

2.)  There are a lot of other things out there for people to do.  That's just the flat out truth.  Our kids have lot of options.  There isn't much of a solution to that.  Start later, expose them to lots of things, and they will probably narrow it down later in life.

3.)  This is a tough sport.  Period.  At some point it either is for you or it isn't for you.  I can compare many of the team sports experiences my kids have participated in to each other, but wrestling to nothing.  It is a unique sport.  There just hasn't been an experience like it for my kids.  It isn't for everyone.  

I don't know if it's 100% a good idea to change a sport to suit more people, that's kind of how things get ruined.  There's nutty parents in every sport (football, baseball, soccer, track, gymnastics, swimming).  The solution is to behave yourself, lead by example, and not buy into the rat race of getting your kid in a singlet before they are weaned from a bottle.  Maybe.  

I like the idea of duals, but then I don't because that seems like something that will eventually be for the elite only.  It excludes some kids.  If leaning towards more duals and less tournaments for middle schoolers, how do you make it inclusive?  Do you set up a preferred line up and then bring the others along in hopes for a match up?  How will that be better than a tournament for keeping numbers and keeping kids interested?

The most difficult thing, which is nearly impossible to reverse, is the sports culture, and the leaning to raising D1/professional athletes at a very young start.   People aren't necessarily signing their kids up for an experience anymore.  They are fine-tuning their child's best shot at a scholarship or a professional contract.  Especially by the time they get to middle school or high school.  If you want to compete with the better athletes, you have to go above the standard.  Outwork your opponent, right?  There is no professional wrestler (unless it's WWE) to aim for.

Maybe it's simply OK to have a semi-obscure sport.  Maybe nobody in the wrestling world is doing anything wrong.  It's just how it is.  

[Dale Einerson]

As a Father of 6 boys, 5 who wrestle, I can honestly say the intensity of myself as a parent has dropped off considerably; for the better.  My two youngest are both in soccer and track; do not wrestle year round.  So what. They are pretty good at soccer and track, but, most importantly they enjoy that too.

My twins enjoy hunting, some would say more than wrestling; they would be right.  

I recall getting to Regionals, and the last 3 years of youth wrestling I would have several parents say, I thought Keegan (or Kasey) quit. (amusing aside, there was more than 1 kid and set of parents that counted on meeting Hunter Weber at Regionals, but not Hunter and Keegan) They thought that because we only did 1 or 2 youth tournaments prior to Regionals the last 2-3 years.  The boys went to a Sunday night practice at Advance instead.  And yes, at practice, both high school and Advance, they wrestled fantastic competition and got better.  None of those practice matches on track, no ribbons, no medals, no trophies, just, "I got the takedown, or the turn, or the rideout...II set a goal to get better"  And then they won Regionals, placed at State, did the Greco and Freestyle thing, and now wrestle in college.  It is hard to argue that not wrestling youth tournaments held them back, because it didn't.

What my boys wanted most from me was crystalized at Greco/Freestyle State when Logan asked me to be in his corner, told me how many matches until he was up and on what mat, but made it clear he really only wanted me there to hold his water and hand him a towel between periods.  That was all he really wanted; for me to be a Father.  Not a Coach, not an adviser, not a critic, a Father.  I would hold water and towels every day for any of them; be thrilled to be there.

Drove down to Wheaton on Saturday to watch 8.5 minutes of a kid wrestling (and 2 team duals); was thrilled to be there.

About to drive to Freedom to watch 2 high schoolers go and a dual meet, thrilled to be going.

Will drive to LAX Thursday to watch Whitewater v. LAX; my kid, thrilled to be going.

[madeyson]

First off let me say - more discussion like this is what will also help improve the sport. I enjoy reading the different perspectives, even if they are different then mine - helps me be a better fan of the sport, and even more important a better parent.

Let me give one perspective of the competitions at an early age. My son loves the sport, would wrestles tournaments two days a week if we let him. In addition to the competition he has gotten a tremendous amount of comrade and friendship out of the sport. He has friends from not only across the state - but across the Midwest. Nothing better then seeing two kids go 100% after each other on the mat, then 20 minutes later they are in the cafeteria laughing and being friends. It is teaching them a lot about life - yes they are competitors - but they are also both human beings that need to learn to respect one another on and off the mat. So maybe there is too much emphasis on the competition - but isn't it teaching them something also?