Divisions

neutral · March 02, 2022, 01:41:40 PM

I don't get the point. There's not a huge difference in attendance within 25-30 places from any of the current 3 or proposed 3 divisions - and this year's Team Tourney, for example (which includes a good number of regulars), wouldn't be different.

4 divisions might make sense ... in order to limit the top to bottom numbers within the divisions - but, for the sake of historical records (since splitting from 1 division) and rivalries ... I say it's not broken ... don't fix it.

littleguy301 · March 02, 2022, 01:57:39 PM

2 divisions for individual and 4 for team.

bigoil · March 02, 2022, 10:47:41 PM

Quote from: neutral on March 02, 2022, 01:41:40 PM
I don't get the point. There's not a huge difference in attendance within 25-30 places from any of the current 3 or proposed 3 divisions - and this year's Team Tourney, for example (which includes a good number of regulars), wouldn't be different.

4 divisions might make sense ... in order to limit the top to bottom numbers within the divisions - but, for the sake of historical records (since splitting from 1 division) and rivalries ... I say it's not broken ... don't fix it.

The point is to have all 3 divisions equal so we can move on with other changes that may make sense and the entire WWCA will be rowing the boat in the same direction. Now we have sectionals that take 2 to state and others that take 3. Regionals that take 4 and regionals that take 2. Get it consistent so changes can be made, for example to balance the power, maybe a super sectional, two match minimum, etc.

neutral · March 03, 2022, 01:46:03 PM

I don't like the break points of 3 equal divisions.
If they have to be equal ... I think you need at least 4 in order to offer some degree of competitiveness within each division.
Again - I'm okay with 3 as they are now ... and don't think all divisions have to qualify by the same process. The hope is to get the 4-8 best guys in each weight class (in each division) to the quarters/semis ... and it seems to me that is accomplished in all divisions.
I don't see why this needs to be addressed in order to move on to other issues.

TomM · March 03, 2022, 04:57:13 PM

Wrestling was once a single division (16 wrestlers per weight bracket). When the schools asked to split it up for representation, the total number of qualifiers would change to 16 for D1 and 8/8 for D2 and D3.

Historically, using proportionality, the WIAA policy has been to have the number of State qualifiers in each division (D1, D2, D3) be 'proportionate' to the total number of enrolled students represented by the schools of the wrestling teams.
There are approximately twice as many students enrolled in D1 schools as there are in either D2 or D3. The individual qualifier numbers for State brackets were D1-16, D2-8, D3 -8 (State qualifiers per division)

When the WISAA (Wisconsin Independent Athletic Association) schools were added, the WIAA agreed to a request by the schools and the Wisconsin Wrestling Coaches Association to add four contestants to each D2 and D3 weight class for State, resulting in qualifier numbers of 16-12-12. (D1 - 16, D2 - 12, D3 - 12) per weight class.

The D2 and D3 schools have a greater (disproportionately larger) representation at State than D1.

Currently there are:
224 D1 wrestlers at State
168 D2 wrestlers at State
168 D3 wrestlers at State

D1 has 224 wrestlers at State and their school enrollments represent twice as many students as D2 and D3 combined. D2 and D3 have a total of 336 wrestlers at State while representing half as many students as D1 does proportionately.

TomM · March 03, 2022, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: dforsythe on March 01, 2022, 01:39:48 PM
I have updated my division spreadsheet for next year. There were a lot of changes in Co-ops this year, so I hope I caught them all. Co-ops are for at least 2 years, so hopefully there will be fewer changes this year and my spreadsheet will be more accurate than it was last year.

https://bit.ly/3K62ya9

Hi Doug, Would you please show the break if we went to two divisions and had 16 qualifiers in each? Thanks

bigoil · March 04, 2022, 12:48:19 AM

Tom,

If there were twice as many weight classes in D1, that would make sense but there are roughly equal # of wrestlers in all divisions if we had 111 teams each. Enrollment doesn't make sense when there are equal # of spots. In track you can have 3 100 M racers, only one 138# varsity wrestler.

downtown · March 04, 2022, 07:31:35 AM

Enrollment wise it is harder statistically to make a varsity lineup in a division one school. That is why there is more state qualifiers.

Does D2&3 really want more state qualifiers? That product is already a little shaky at the state tournament the first round. Especially at the upper weights. I would be all for equal divisions and equal representation. But careful for what you wish for.

bigoil · March 04, 2022, 07:51:23 AM

Quote from: downtown on March 04, 2022, 07:31:35 AM
Enrollment wise it is harder statistically to make a varsity lineup in a division one school. That is why there is more state qualifiers.

Does D2&3 really want more state qualifiers? That product is already a little shaky at the state tournament the first round. Especially at the upper weights. I would be all for equal divisions and equal representation. But careful for what you wish for.

I grew up in a large D1 school, I live in a smaller D2 school. While common sense may agree with statistically harder, outside a few D1 schools (Mukwonago reportedly had 50-60 kids on their roster), I'm not sure roster sizes really are that influenced by enrollment.

You can pick some of the largest schools that coop together and can't field anything close to resembling a competitive varsity squad and small schools that have a full or close full competitive varsity squad.

Determining a team state entrant from regionals has to stop and I believe getting the divisions aligned and getting all coaches going in that direction is the first step.

WINfan · March 04, 2022, 08:20:25 AM

I agree, although enrollment is higher in D1, there are also more sports and extra curricular activities for those kids to choose from. So instead of having Wrestling, basketball, and auto body, they have wrestling, basketball, gymnastics, hockey, swimming, bowling, chess club, water polo, synchronized dancing, etc.

bigoil · March 04, 2022, 09:26:40 AM

Quote from: WINfan on March 04, 2022, 08:20:25 AM
I agree, although enrollment is higher in D1, there are also more sports and extra curricular activities for those kids to choose from. So instead of having Wrestling, basketball, and auto body, they have wrestling, basketball, gymnastics, hockey, swimming, bowling, chess club, water polo, synchronized dancing, etc.

Skiing, fishing (also Ice Fishing), mountain biking are some other ones I have seen oh and don't forget ESports.

DocWrestling · March 04, 2022, 09:37:59 AM

While there are a lot more opportunities at D1 schools I think that the main reason for numbers issues is just that coaches at D1 schools tend to expect more year round commitment.

If I had to guess, the percentage of kids at D1 schools that play 3 sports is greatly less than those at D2 and D3 schools. I would then also say that the percentage of kids at D1 schools that even play 2 sports is greatly less than those at D2 and D3 schools.

The other issue is club sports. More and more kids are choosing to not play high school sports and do junior hockey, or club soccer, or club gymnastics, etc. and all those opportunities are year round.

The bigger the school and the bigger the community the more opportunities which really spreads the kids out.

dforsythe · March 04, 2022, 11:49:18 AM

Quote from: TomM on March 03, 2022, 09:31:57 PM
Quote from: dforsythe on March 01, 2022, 01:39:48 PM
I have updated my division spreadsheet for next year. There were a lot of changes in Co-ops this year, so I hope I caught them all. Co-ops are for at least 2 years, so hopefully there will be fewer changes this year and my spreadsheet will be more accurate than it was last year.

https://bit.ly/3K62ya9

Hi Doug, Would you please show the break if we went to two divisions and had 16 qualifiers in each? Thanks

Done

digimon · March 04, 2022, 02:51:04 PM

Three equal Divisions
16 State Qualifiers per Division
Double elimination at Individual State Tournament
Seed the Individual State Tournament. Tweak the seeding criteria a little from 2021-22.

neutral · March 05, 2022, 10:39:00 AM

"While there are a lot more opportunities at D1 schools I think that the main reason for numbers issues is just that coaches at D1 schools tend to expect more year round commitment.

If I had to guess, the percentage of kids at D1 schools that play 3 sports is greatly less than those at D2 and D3 schools. I would then also say that the percentage of kids at D1 schools that even play 2 sports is greatly less than those at D2 and D3 schools.

The other issue is club sports. More and more kids are choosing to not play high school sports and do junior hockey, or club soccer, or club gymnastics, etc. and all those opportunities are year round.

The bigger the school and the bigger the community the more opportunities which really spreads the kids out."

I don't necessarily agree with this ... and I'm not considering opportunities outside of wrestling ... since I am advocating for kids that want to wrestle. A larger enrollment may generate more sport/activity options - but, the spread of a larger enrollment doesn't have to mean less interest in wrestling ... by kids that want to wrestle.