These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
Lol you have to be trolling.
Quote from: 21Headlocks on February 26, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
Just like inhalers 🙄🙄🙄
C-4 is a plastic explosive.
C4 is also a pre-workout supplement. 10 football players from Menominee got suspended from using this a few years ago (they didn't know it had a banned supplement in it).
Keep in mind there are different version of C4 and not all are banned. C4 will make you jittery and an anxious feeling. I would invite my opponent to take 2 heaping scoops before our match.
First post... If Tom checks the posters IP address, I'm guessing it will match another user.
Adderall is a problem also.
Quote from: marshman on February 27, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Adderall is a problem also.
Here we go. You can't lump in prescribed medication into a problem. Want to go for a bike ride, wait, what time is it. What was I talking about. Oh yea, meds for ADHD.
I feel strongly that my kid has low testosterone and growth hormone deficiency. I'm still looking for a Doc who agrees.
Quote from: marshman on February 27, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Adderall is a problem also.
Huge problem, often precipitated by parents who think their kid should self-dose when the kid isn't trustworthy to do that. Grr
Steroids and growth hormones are a lot more prevalent in high school wrestling than I think a lot of us would imagine. Why doesn't the WIAA follow suit with the NCAA and test the finalists at every weight class?
Quote from: Scramble_king on February 27, 2020, 03:11:12 PM
Steroids and growth hormones are a lot more prevalent in high school wrestling than I think a lot of us would imagine. Why doesn't the WIAA follow suit with the NCAA and test the finalists at every weight class?
Huge expense!
Quote from: SayHey42 on February 27, 2020, 08:51:16 AM
C4 is also a pre-workout supplement. 10 football players from Menominee got suspended from using this a few years ago (they didn't know it had a banned supplement in it).
Keep in mind there are different version of C4 and not all are banned. C4 will make you jittery and an anxious feeling. I would invite my opponent to take 2 heaping scoops before our match.
First post... If Tom checks the posters IP address, I'm guessing it will match another user.
I think it is a fair question and far more prevalent than most would expect. I welcome you to check the address because it will not match to anyone else's account if you just think I'm trolling. These kids that are using these WIAA banned supplements should face repercussions. It is not healthy or safe for 15-18 year old kids to be taking these and you downplaying the issue at hand saying that it only makes you jittery or anxious is part of the problem.
Quote from: SayHey42 on February 27, 2020, 12:36:16 PM
Quote from: marshman on February 27, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Adderall is a problem also.
Here we go. You can't lump in prescribed medication into a problem. Want to go for a bike ride, wait, what time is it. What was I talking about. Oh yea, meds for ADHD.
I feel strongly that my kid has low testosterone and growth hormone deficiency. I'm still looking for a Doc who agrees.
Because all prescribed medications are always taken as written and no one in the history of pharmaceuticals has abused a prescription drug. Adderall is a problem, your argument needs a little help as well
I'm just glad that we finally overcame the Ex-Lax problem.
Quote from: SayHey42 on February 27, 2020, 12:36:16 PM
Quote from: marshman on February 27, 2020, 11:38:06 AM
Adderall is a problem also.
Here we go. You can't lump in prescribed medication into a problem. Want to go for a bike ride, wait, what time is it. What was I talking about. Oh yea, meds for ADHD.
I feel strongly that my kid has low testosterone and growth hormone deficiency. I'm still looking for a Doc who agrees.
You do a great job of stereotyping ADHD. Tee hee. Believe it or not many ADHD people do not exhibit the flightiness to which you allude. Having fun at the expense of those who have a real disorder to deal with. You know it all, don't you? I suppose you'd tell a paraplegic to just get up and walk, cuz you can do it. Right? Tell a stage 4 cancer patient it's in their head. Thanks for precipitating a major problem. Big help
Prescribed meds are a huge problem in schools and jails. No need to be ignorant and short-sighted about it. Think before you post.
Sorry to hear about your kid. Might be hereditary. I know where you can get some BGH that might help. Sounds like the kind of "doctorin'" yer into.
Prescribed medication is a much greater problem than any C4 will ever be. But, keep on thinkin' you know what you're talking about. We need more armchair mental health experts like yourself.
Ironic that you call someone an armchair mental health expert yet you have no problem being the de facto armchair legal expert on here .......
I'm not the de facto, nor any other type, of legal expert save for 17 years experience in things jail/court/statute related. I've just spent a lot of time in jail and court dealing with statutes. Expert is a big word. Way beyond my knowledge.
Not a mental health expert, either. But to say that prescribed meds can't be added to this same problem/discussion is ignorant. "Here we go again." Especially a prescribed med with heavy stimulant properties. There is also no need to have fun at the expense of those with this or that disorder. People who deal with it have enough on their plates as it is. No need to perpetuate a stereotype. Of course, the poster probably thought the stereotype was the disorder, and didn't know any better. Whatever!
No need to be angry we didn't side on the silly court case. I still feel it was superfluous, and you obviously don't. You were there, I wasn't. YOU are the expert du jure.
Quote from: bigG on February 28, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
I'm not the de facto, nor any other type, of legal expert save for 17 years experience in things jail/court/statute related. I've just spent a lot of time in jail and court dealing with statutes. Expert is a big word. Way beyond my knowledge.
Not a mental health expert, either. But to say that prescribed meds can't be added to this same problem/discussion is ignorant. "Here we go again." Especially a prescribed med with heavy stimulant properties. There is also no need to have fun at the expense of those with this or that disorder. People who deal with it have enough on their plates as it is. No need to perpetuate a stereotype. Of course, the poster probably thought the stereotype was the disorder, and didn't know any better. Whatever!
No need to be angry we didn't side on the silly court case. I still feel it was superfluous, and you obviously don't. You were there, I wasn't. YOU are the expert du jure.
I have ADD and I take Adderall. It calms those who have ADD/ADHD down. It doesn't jack them up, calms them so they can focus. Kids on prescription meds have zero reason to justify what they take to anyone. So while I make light of my own issue, as well as others with attention issues, you have no idea how Adderall reacts on those that need it.
People accusing kids of taking banned supplements or attributing their meds to success likely don't see how much more work they put in. Look at some of the kids at state, many look like they never seen a weight room and have a terrible diet. How many kids do you think go straight to the weight room immediately after winning a tournament, I could name a couple who will be multiple time state champs tomorrow.
Supplements are not ruining HS wrestling. Kids who are prescribed Adderall are not ruining HS wrestling. There is just a huge separation of work being done. And when hard work is combined with talent, special things happen.
With the week of State I can't believe this thread has any traction??????
Not one thread on State up sets?
Not a single thread on a cool back drop story of a challenging path to state?
Not a single thread on championship match up's?
Not a single thread about incoming star's or the fact that one of the best in the past 10-20 years is wrapping up this weekend?
NOT A SINGLE THREAD THAT FOR SOME REASON THE WIAA CAN NOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO SEED STATE, WHEN ALMOST EVERYONE ELSE CAN!! and on a system invented in Wisconsin.
Still no double elimination???
C4 really? I am not encouraging kids take C4 but really???
There has been a few stories about what some kids have over come to get to state.
C4 is a topic. While not encouraging the use, lots of other problems in wrestling before this.
Quote from: SayHey42 on February 28, 2020, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: bigG on February 28, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
I'm not the de facto, nor any other type, of legal expert save for 17 years experience in things jail/court/statute related. I've just spent a lot of time in jail and court dealing with statutes. Expert is a big word. Way beyond my knowledge.
Not a mental health expert, either. But to say that prescribed meds can't be added to this same problem/discussion is ignorant. "Here we go again." Especially a prescribed med with heavy stimulant properties. There is also no need to have fun at the expense of those with this or that disorder. People who deal with it have enough on their plates as it is. No need to perpetuate a stereotype. Of course, the poster probably thought the stereotype was the disorder, and didn't know any better. Whatever!
No need to be angry we didn't side on the silly court case. I still feel it was superfluous, and you obviously don't. You were there, I wasn't. YOU are the expert du jure.
I have ADD and I take Adderall. It calms those who have ADD/ADHD down. It doesn't jack them up, calms them so they can focus. Kids on prescription meds have zero reason to justify what they take to anyone. So while I make light of my own issue, as well as others with attention issues, you have no idea how Adderall reacts on those that need it.
People accusing kids of taking banned supplements or attributing their meds to success likely don't see how much more work they put in. Look at some of the kids at state, many look like they never seen a weight room and have a terrible diet. How many kids do you think go straight to the weight room immediately after winning a tournament, I could name a couple who will be multiple time state champs tomorrow.
Supplements are not ruining HS wrestling. Kids who are prescribed Adderall are not ruining HS wrestling. There is just a huge separation of work being done. And when hard work is combined with talent, special things happen.
I believe Adderall is not a problem to those for whom it is prescribed. The problem is when taken by those for whom it is not prescribed. Kids who are prescribed Adderall and selling it, or giving it away are a big problem in school and jails.
I don't think anything is ruining HS wrestling. HS wrestling is about as healthy as it's ever been. The Ex-Lax comment was no joke. Rubber suits, etc. But to say prescribed meds are no problem, compared to C4, is short sighted. Adderall is a commodity in jails and schools, for those who get it and don't take it for the right reason. It is an upper for those who have no need for it; and quite dangerous when taken thusly.
THAT is where the Adderall problem is. I'm sure responsible. Not everybody is.
I work with kids who take Adderall from age 4 to HS graduate. Great help for many. But when I hear lines like your last two regarding ADHD, OCD, Bipolar, Borderline Personality Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, I get a little defensive because I've dealt with many kids and adults who have had to deal with those things and the whole "tried to find a doctor who would diagnose my kid" was what set me off.
I appreciate your candor, but I feel those two lines were irresponsible as it was to say you couldn't lump prescribed meds in there. Well, no, not if everyone were SayHey responsible. Sadly, we can't rely on everyone to be as responsible as you.
But I agree. Nothing is ruining wrestling, tikes to Olympians. C$ is a little scary , Adderall is very scary when taken by folks who shouldn't take it.
I have some concerns about "energy" drinks and other "supplements" particularly the "pre-workout" types that kids might mix themselves.
The maximum safe dosage of caffine in a 24 hour period for a teen is 100 mg. One 16oz can of C4 contains 200mg of synthetic (not plant-based) caffiene (though it may contain more or less as FDA labeling for caffine is not at all strict).
A major issue is how fast the caffiene enters the system. It's quite easy for a kid to slam an energy drink in less than a few minutes and get double the safe level of caffiene for a full 24 hour period. In our country we have about 2000 teens hospitalized each year due to caffiene overdose. Many don't die, but a handful each year do. We have been seeing an alarmingly high number of very fit athletes (wrestlers for example) who have had cardiac arrest during or shortly after matches. This was a very rare occurance even 10 years ago, but there have been several in just the past few years. There might very well be a connection. Additionally with the mixes, a teen may feel that "more of a supplement is better" and create a mixture that they've had several times before, with no issue, but on any given day, it might be fatal.
Regarding other supplements such as "protein" shakes etc. If you read up on this stuff, you will learn that none of it is FDA regulated. It's often very high in calories and sugar content, not at all what an athlete should be consuming.
Protein "isolate" tends to mimick Estrogen in the body, which is opposite of what an athlete would want for muscle building and repair.
Most of it is made in very unsanitary conditions (levels of rodent feces can be very high in some brands). They don't have to list their actual ingredients or amounts. There are also companies that are putting actual steroids with masking agents in their mix because that is the only way that they can actually build muscle.
Talk to your children and athletes about avoiding not only a general waste of their money, but things that can be harmful or worse.
Quote from: Handles II on March 04, 2020, 10:00:54 AM
Protein "isolate" tends to mimick Estrogen in the body, which is opposite of what an athlete would want for muscle building and repair.
This is only true for soy protein isolate.
Supplement use by athletes has been an issue in sports from day 1.
This is a health issue and not a sport issue. There is no way for high school sports to enforce or monitor.
Thus it is an educational issue. Kids are using stimulants like caffeine every day for lifting and not just for competitions. Nothing illegal about it but my kids know I would be irate if they were doing such things.
Parenting needs to occur followed by support and education from coaches.
Caffeine is a drug. Truth is adults and kids are living on it from coffee to soda to products like Red Bull and Monster energy drinks. When I was younger it was No Doz.
C4 is the latest most dangerous supplement. Schools themselves don't allow soda to be sold mainly because of sugar but they should ban caffeine products. I predict in the future people are going to die and the government will regulate the amount of caffeine and will regulate marketing to kids.
I agree that it's much more an educational/health issue than a sports one. I have major concerns about "intake" in general. At cafeteria breakfast, kids area eating rice crispy treats, pop tarts and washing it down with apple juice or citrus punch. My proposal is to just put out bowls full of fruit, ample fruit. Save time, wealth and health. It seems as though certain food giants have a hold of our school bkfst/lunch programs. How healthy can you make a fruit loop bar? Our salad bar is excellent at lunch, and the kid prefer that over the entrée more than not.
It would be hard to wrestle on a school bkfst/lunch program. Empty calories/preservatives, etc. The supplements are mostly garbage, but they've always been great sellers. $ talks.
I personally don't see any real problem with supplements like C4 is Highschool Wrestling. It doesn't give much more of an advantage than taking an energy drink. This would be hard to monitor and maintain as well because it's unlikely they will test for C4
Quote from: BlueBeaver33 on March 04, 2020, 02:42:44 PM
I personally don't see any real problem with supplements like C4 is Highschool Wrestling. It doesn't give much more of an advantage than taking an energy drink. This would be hard to monitor and maintain as well because it's unlikely they will test for C4
C4 would be like having two red bulls or two monster energy drinks. There is also a banned substance in it which is similar to ephedra. NCAA and pro athletes would be taking at a risk but no testing in high school sports.
Anyone taking this stiff is just not smart
I remember when ephedra was muy popular. Had a hockey kid die who took it before a game. Strong bronchial dilator. These things will always find their way into this or that sport when there is a perceived advantage, often influenced by BS advertising.
Quote from: 21Headlocks on February 26, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
BOGUS!! Pre-workout supplements such as C4 do nothing more than energize the user. Identical strength results can be achieved through a good work ethic and a hefty amount of dedication!!
Quote from: yellowplaytpus337 on March 05, 2020, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: 21Headlocks on February 26, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
BOGUS!! Pre-workout supplements such as C4 do nothing more than energize the user. Identical strength results can be achieved through a good work ethic and a hefty amount of dedication!!
They do a lot more than just energize the user....
C-4 is a plastic explosive.
That's why it gives ya energy. ;) BOOM!
Quote from: SayHey42 on February 28, 2020, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: bigG on February 28, 2020, 01:40:44 PM
I'm not the de facto, nor any other type, of legal expert save for 17 years experience in things jail/court/statute related. I've just spent a lot of time in jail and court dealing with statutes. Expert is a big word. Way beyond my knowledge.
Not a mental health expert, either. But to say that prescribed meds can't be added to this same problem/discussion is ignorant. "Here we go again." Especially a prescribed med with heavy stimulant properties. There is also no need to have fun at the expense of those with this or that disorder. People who deal with it have enough on their plates as it is. No need to perpetuate a stereotype. Of course, the poster probably thought the stereotype was the disorder, and didn't know any better. Whatever!
No need to be angry we didn't side on the silly court case. I still feel it was superfluous, and you obviously don't. You were there, I wasn't. YOU are the expert du jure.
I have ADD and I take Adderall. It calms those who have ADD/ADHD down. It doesn't jack them up, calms them so they can focus. Kids on prescription meds have zero reason to justify what they take to anyone. So while I make light of my own issue, as well as others with attention issues, you have no idea how Adderall reacts on those that need it.
People accusing kids of taking banned supplements or attributing their meds to success likely don't see how much more work they put in. Look at some of the kids at state, many look like they never seen a weight room and have a terrible diet. How many kids do you think go straight to the weight room immediately after winning a tournament, I could name a couple who will be multiple time state champs tomorrow.
Supplements are not ruining HS wrestling. Kids who are prescribed Adderall are not ruining HS wrestling. There is just a huge separation of work being done. And when hard work is combined with talent, special things happen.
I hear ya, I took an opioid as indicated for a day post operatively for pain, no way would anyone ever abuse them ??? Also kudos to you for finally unlocking the secret to success in life, hard + talent = success, wow, I have to look into that.
Quote from: Pegasus66 on March 05, 2020, 10:27:44 PM
Quote from: yellowplaytpus337 on March 05, 2020, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: 21Headlocks on February 26, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
BOGUS!! Pre-workout supplements such as C4 do nothing more than energize the user. Identical strength results can be achieved through a good work ethic and a hefty amount of dedication!!
They do a lot more than just energize the user....
You sound like a person who has never lifted a weight in their life!!! The entire purpose of C4 is to energize the lifter!!!
Quote from: yellowplaytpus337 on March 06, 2020, 03:18:02 PM
Quote from: Pegasus66 on March 05, 2020, 10:27:44 PM
Quote from: yellowplaytpus337 on March 05, 2020, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: 21Headlocks on February 26, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
BOGUS!! Pre-workout supplements such as C4 do nothing more than energize the user. Identical strength results can be achieved through a good work ethic and a hefty amount of dedication!!
They do a lot more than just energize the user....
You sound like a person who has never lifted a weight in their life!!! The entire purpose of C4 is to energize the lifter!!!
https://chippewa.com/dunnconnect/news/local/mhs-athletes-suspended-for-consuming-energy-drink/article_bf21683e-cb79-11e1-bd1a-0019bb2963f4.html
Things like this should be addressed at coaches conventions and AD conventions
Quote from: asdfg on March 06, 2020, 03:27:50 PM
https://chippewa.com/dunnconnect/news/local/mhs-athletes-suspended-for-consuming-energy-drink/article_bf21683e-cb79-11e1-bd1a-0019bb2963f4.html
From linked article:
10 MHS athletes suspended for consuming energy drink
By Brett Hart Jul 11, 2012
Ten Menomonie High School (MHS) multi-sport athletes discovered that a pre-workout energy drink they consumed this week will cost them the first three games of the WIAA football season.
The drink, called Cellucor C4 Extreme, contains a banned substance called Synephrine HCL, a potent adrenergic stimulator. According to bodybuilding.com, Synephrine HCL, "augments energy levels and ATP synthesis" and is structurally similar to Ephedra. It goes on to say, "The compound enhances adrenaline stimulation and promotes weight loss by amplifying fat burning, metabolism, and thermogenesis."
MHS Activities Director Bart Boettcher said while Synephrine HCL is not specifically listed as a banned substance under the school's code, it is listed by the WIAA and falls under the category of performance enhancing drugs and carries the same punishments as alcohol or tobacco consumption.
"It's the same exact punishment," said Boettcher, who noted that due to an honor clause (for turning themselves in) the punishment was reduced from a 50 percent ban to three games.
"I had a tip from the WIAA to investigate," said Boettcher. "I went right down to the weight room and met with (Head Football) Coach (Joe) LaBuda, and we asked, and they said 'Yeah' and even showed us. Our kids didn't think there was anything wrong with it. ... They said they were told that this was the best stuff by a GNC employee."
LaBuda said after the athletes used the product, they bragged about it on Twitter and someone reported it to the WIAA. He added that not only is Synephrine banned by the WIAA, but also by the NCAA.
"They were unaware that this substance was on the WIAA banned substance list, but the product states on the label not to be consumed by anyone under the age of 18," said LaBuda. "None of these students were 18."
"I feel for them," Boettcher said, but added, "When it happens, we're going to enforce the code. There's no hiding or getting around it."
All 10 players are junior and seniors on the football team. Since football will be the first athletic season after receiving the suspension, they will not permitted to play against Merrill, Chippewa Falls or Eau Claire Memorial.
While the situation is an unfortunate one for all involved, Boettcher said, "The health and safety of the athletes is the most important thing in the world. ... Ignorance is not an excuse."
WIAA's response
Wade Labecki, deputy director of the WIAA, said, "Many of the products available in your local store have a variety of ingredients and some of the ingredients are stimulants. Supplement ingredient lists can be very difficult to decipher as problematic ingredients can have multiple name variations. There are common names (synonyms) that are listed in dietary supplements for the same stimulant. It's very possible that athletes are not aware of what's actually in the product they're taking and athletes should be careful with any product."
Labecki added the ban on performance enhancers is not just due to "competitive advantages", but for the "overall health of young, developing, adolescent children. ... The ingredient in the product can cause kidney damage. A concern with this product is the withdrawal affect once a user has stopped taking the product."
The withdrawal symptoms of DMAA (Synephrine) include mood changes, depression and anger.
"Our concern is neither the athletes, their parents, or school personnel would be aware of the symptoms to watch for," said Labecki.
He added that risks associated with the drug include vasoconstriction (blood vessel narrowing), elevated heart rate, increased risk of stroke, high blood pressure, aneurysm, lethal exhaustion, and even impotence. Those risks escalate if the drug is combined with other stimulants like caffeine, and then again increase when the body is under extreme load associated with exercise or competitive sport – and again if exposed to heat or dehydration.
On the plus side
LaBuda said the big positive that came out of the incident is that they were able to cut off the usage right away and "the students did not have any prolonged use of this product."
"When we were first made aware of this and the students were questioned, they all stepped forward and were accountable for their actions," said LaBuda. "It's a lot harder to be a kid today than when we grew up. ... (It's) also (a) tough era to be a parent. ... Students need to be careful where they get their source of information of what is safe and what is not, and also how they use the internet."
Menomonie District Administrator Chris Stratton commended both Boettcher and LaBuda for how they handled the investigation.
Who got the #1 seed? How did they do?
I would give anabolic steroids the 1 seed. They do pretty well.
Quote from: asdfg on March 06, 2020, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: yellowplaytpus337 on March 06, 2020, 03:18:02 PM
Quote from: Pegasus66 on March 05, 2020, 10:27:44 PM
Quote from: yellowplaytpus337 on March 05, 2020, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: 21Headlocks on February 26, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
These supplements are giving kids a boost over clean wrestlers
BOGUS!! Pre-workout supplements such as C4 do nothing more than energize the user. Identical strength results can be achieved through a good work ethic and a hefty amount of dedication!!
They do a lot more than just energize the user....
You sound like a person who has never lifted a weight in their life!!! The entire purpose of C4 is to energize the lifter!!!
https://chippewa.com/dunnconnect/news/local/mhs-athletes-suspended-for-consuming-energy-drink/article_bf21683e-cb79-11e1-bd1a-0019bb2963f4.html
You can find anything on the internet... I could easily find an article discussing the benefits of supplements such as C4.